New details regarding the Rasmussen affair

[FMS_rider]

From the Velonews forum:
http://www.nrc.nl/achtergrond/article874819.ece/%3Cb%3EEnglish_version%3C%2Fb%3E_the_Rasmussen_sch andal

[DarrenCT]

bah the whole scene is messed up.

it needs a ctrl-alt-delete imo

[FMS_rider]

bah the whole scene is messed up.

it needs a ctrl-alt-delete imo
The revelations over the past few years have put me through a whole series of changes in perspective and interest regarding professional road racing. Currently I am feeling a great deal of sympathy for most of the discredited or self-confessed riders and a few of them have become heroes (Vaughters, Miller, and Riis), but Rasmussen is an exception. Also, in the course of this Greg Lemond has gone from hero to goat (when I thought his comments regarding LA were sour grapes), and back to hero.

One of the things I like about this forum is the relative disregard of doping issues (which seems to have carried over to international road racing in general), and in retrospect I should not have let my feelings regarding Rasmussen influence my judgment and posted the link.
My apologies.
Lew

[e-RICHIE]

The revelations over the past few years <cut>
Lew
great post atmo.
folks yearn for entertainment and need heroes.
doping (in cycling) goes back to the first race.
we keep watching, so they keep racing. and
cycling is a euro sport primarliy. trying to see
the culture through white, middle class, suburban
rose colored glasses won't work. it's all been said
before: the races are too long, there are too many
of them, and many who are paid to race are the
human equivilant of greyhounds. the kids come
up in a system that protects its own atmo.

[saab2000]

I agree with e-richie except that I don't feel sorry for them because the races are too long and that they are greyhounds. Nobody makes anyone get into it. People race or ride bikes because they love it. It's too hard to do it for any other reason.

Shorter races won't stop the doping. Marion Jones raced in short races IIRC. How much endurance does Roger Clemens need?

But the fact is that as long as we watch and sponsors pay and racing exists there will be cheating. Cheating exists at all levels of everything in life.

Too bad cycling has been singled out for scrutiny, but for so long they acted like it didn't exist in the face of overwhelming knowledge that it did/does.

Anyway......

It is a good post and a very good link. Don't apologise for posting. :beer:

[DarrenCT]

many who are paid to race are the
human equivilant of greyhounds.

what kinda salary does a newbie pro make for a year?

us funds? 30k?

[saab2000]

what kinda salary does a newbie pro make for a year?

us funds? 30k?

Depends on the situation. But that's probably about right. Not very much, that's for sure. And a lot of US pros don't make that unless they are at the top of the heap.

Salary for pro racers is extremely top heavy. The top hundred riders in the world of pro racing probably make about 75% of all the money paid out to riders.

[e-RICHIE]

I agree with e-richie except that I don't feel sorry for them because the races are too long and that they are greyhounds.
i don't feel sorry for any of them. sometimes i kinda sorta
sorry for anyone that believes stuff like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxtxQQLkJ0) atmo.
Nobody makes anyone get into it. People race or ride bikes because they love it. It's too hard to do it for any other reason.
i don't agree. they do it for a salary.

[saab2000]

i don't agree. they do it for a salary.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Of course they do it for a salary, but most of them also like the sport. At least that was my observation from my years of knowing some pro riders in Switzerland.

Anyway, the mentality there is, as you observed, very different from in the US. No rose colored glasses about what it really is. But even the hardened and cynical pros seemed to like the bike riding. Because with a few exceptions, the pros I knew would have earned more money with regular jobs.

Just sayin'....

[DarrenCT]

i don't agree. they do it for a salary.

werd

its all about the $$$. they like it to a certain extent, but im sure there are days when theyd much rather be on a beach drinking a cocktail

its sorta like the tennis circuit. the low ranked guys/girls don't make much and have to bust there balls and travel all over the world and fight to make a living

[saab2000]

its sorta like the tennis circuit. the low ranked guys/girls don't make much and have to bust there balls and travel all over the world and fight to make a living

Yeah, it's all about the money. But like I said, most of these low level pros in many sports where there is no collective bargaining agreement to protect the low level participants they would make more doing a regular job.

Zülle made more on the bike than as a painter (his trained profession). But some of the other ones I know would have made more painting than on the bike. But they rode the bike anyway.

Hard to say about Rominger (whom I don't know) but he has the equivelant of a college education as an accountant. He woulda done well no matter what 'cuz he's very savvy.

[e-RICHIE]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Of course they do it for a salary, but most of them also like the sport. At least that was my observation from my years of knowing some pro riders in Switzerland.
i know some pros too. i don't think it's the sport they like,
per se. at their young age, it's the lifestyle and travel that's
the allure. it's a surfer/endless summer thing. the bicycle
and the racing are just small details atmo.

[saab2000]

Something to do. Something they like. Get paid doing it makes it all the better. :beer:

[J.Greene]

sometimes i kinda sorta
sorry for anyone that believes stuff like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxtxQQLkJ0) atmo.


You beat me to this.

JG

[flux]

For the record. I race for the money.

Didn't used to...

Do now.

[Pete Serotta]

i don't feel sorry for any of them. sometimes i kinda sorta
sorry for anyone that believes stuff like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxtxQQLkJ0) atmo.

i don't agree. they do it for a salary.


It is for the $$, fame, and yeah somewhere along the way they enjoyed it. :bike:

[e-RICHIE]

It is for the $$, fame, and yeah somewhere along the way they enjoyed it. :bike:
ahhhhhhhhhh summer nights atmo...

[Pete Serotta]

:D :D :D ahhhhhhhhhh summer nights atmo...

[swoop]

i 'race' for the hemorrhoids, constant feeling of dissatisfaction, fatigue/injuries, and constant need to try and hurt total strangers in a sanctioned way....while maintaining a subtle need to feel vastly superior to people that ride because it just makes them happy...

ahhh, life over 40 and maturity.

so PRO...

(all said with sunshine, pretty hair colors, and the essence of seedless watermelons).

[CaptStash]

I can't say that I know any pro-cyclists. But I have had a lot of friends who were elite level rowers (I was a high level rower myself pre-cycling but never made a national team).

Most of them spent their lives between the ages of 21 to 30 chasing the dream of international athletic success. The number of people who make a good living from rowing can be counted on one hand. the number who have become wealthy for their rowing exploits is one (Brit Steve Redgrave).

So my question is, how is this any different from any one of a number of back in the pack TDF riders and other "lower level" pros who are barely making a living? The fact is they are living an amazing life as a pro athlete. That is something they will always have the rest of their lives.

I don't feel sorry for them. I am jealous.

My 2 cents.

CaptStash....

PS: Cheating is cheating. I don't think it's ok for Barry Bonds and it sure as hell isn't ok for cyclists or anyone else.

[e-RICHIE]

My 2 cents.

CaptStash....

PS: Cheating is cheating. I don't think it's ok for Barry Bonds and it sure as hell isn't ok for cyclists or anyone else.
cheating aside, no one would watch the tour if
it took seven weeks atmo. and the hour record
might still be 1:05:44. think about it.

[Avispa]

cheating aside, no one would watch the tour if
it took seven weeks atmo. and the hour record
might still be 1:05:44. think about it.

Nope.... Let's agree to disagree on this one too.

The Tours of the past were just as long or longer and riders had to deal with their own support! The Tours didn't go on for seven weeks... And as far as the hour record, how long did it take to break the 4 minute mile and improve on it?

Oh, but wait! There was no TV in those early days and then when TV started ads ran for more than 30 secs. That must be it, no? :D

..A..

[jmewkill]

Nope.... Let's agree to disagree on this one too.

The Tours of the past were just as long or longer and riders had to deal with their own support! The Tours didn't go on for seven weeks... And as far as the hour record, how long did it take to break the 4 minute mile and improve on it?

Oh, but wait! There was no TV in those early days and then when TV started ads ran for more than 30 secs. That must be it, no? :D

..A..

How far back is this? And the correlation to doping to TV coverage?

[KJMUNC]

Oh, but wait! There was no TV in those early days and then when TV started ads ran for more than 30 secs. That must be it, no? :D

..A..

No TV but remember the whole thing started b/c of the media. They've never ridden just for the exposure though.

Riding a bike beats tilling a field, working in a factory, or some other boring, thankless job that most riders would have wound up doing if they couldn't ride a bike fast.

Oh yeah, the money is/was good too. Cycling was is the way out of a short, nasty and brutish life for many.

[e-RICHIE]

No TV but remember the whole thing started b/c of the media.
only one thing has ever changed:
how news is covered atmo.

[CaptStash]

cheating aside, no one would watch the tour if
it took seven weeks atmo. and the hour record
might still be 1:05:44. think about it.


And Barry Bonds wouldn't have the home run records and certain track records would still stand. So what?

For cycling in particular, I think there is an inevitable continual improvement curve due to the fact that it is an equipment intensive sport. Times improve as equipment improves. Factor in improvements from improved training techniques and knowledge and I think we're fine.

We don't NEED chemical enhancement. But we do need an even playing field.

OK. So now I'm up to four cents.

CaptStash....

[swoop]

you can't have a bunch of guys who's every cell is oriented to push boundaries and not expect all the boundaries to be pushed.
where there are boundaries that are difficult to enforce, you'll find the most pushin'.

its not tv, its not sport, its not morality, its nature. you want to protect these cats and the sport.. you gotta have boundaries clearly defined and enforced.


when we get that part down the other stuff will go away.. or evolve.

its okham's razor at work. the path of least resistance to the finish line.
...
....

at the same time... there's a need at that level to maintain ones basic health in sport than can't be good for you. you gotta move the morality play out of the way and look at some stuff. life is complex and messy.. so is sport.

[jeffg]

you can't have a bunch of guys who's every cell is oriented to push boundaries and not expect all the boundaries to be pushed.
where there are boundaries that are difficult to enforce, you'll find the most pushin'.

life is complex and messy.. so is sport.


So was Enron and so is the subprime mortgage mess and Wall Street's role in it

Human ... all too human ... but still ethically flawed

It is not a simple morality play but it is not animal planet either

[swoop]

So was Enron and so is the subprime mortgage mess and Wall Street's role in it

Human ... all too human ... but still ethically flawed

It is not a simple morality play but it is not animal planet either

and we are all of the same stuff. you make my point. the work is to be good in your own life and advocate for clear rules and meaningful punishment. sport is just life with an audience and a finish line.


and here's my new years reso.. no more doping threads for me. i'll let what's cached here speak for itself. its the same conversation each time.
i do look forward to seeing usa cycling bust a domestic racer that's also a dealer that they failed to bust before even though they know he's dirty.

i'm all for clean sports. let's get there.

[William]

I can't say that I know any pro-cyclists. But I have had a lot of friends who were elite level rowers (I was a high level rower myself pre-cycling but never made a national team).

Most of them spent their lives between the ages of 21 to 30 chasing the dream of international athletic success. The number of people who make a good living from rowing can be counted on one hand. the number who have become wealthy for their rowing exploits is one (Brit Steve Redgrave).

So my question is, how is this any different from any one of a number of back in the pack TDF riders and other "lower level" pros who are barely making a living? The fact is they are living an amazing life as a pro athlete. That is something they will always have the rest of their lives.



Been there, done that....and very true.


William

[Viper]

I'm not sure anything new was in the article, just the opening paragraph where they offered that Rasmussen considered suicide (which was news to me). It did let us know that he also weaseled his wifey into the lie/scandal as he claimed he was with her in Mexico. Weak. The cat is a weasel.

"On June 4th his Mexican wife Cariza drove him to the airport of Verona. There he pretended to take a plane to the New World. In reality he secretly returned to Lazise, where he moved in with a friend. Afterwards, the Dane would claim that marital problems prompted his behaviour. "

Weak, he claimed marital issues, used his wife so he could go shoot up EPO. He also used his employees from Los Locos Bike Shop, having them lie for him too.

Wimp. Another element that caught my eye, when he was on the phone..."Both men started to cry." I swear that women are tougher than men in professional soccer and professional cycling. Too many men are wimps, literally.

[goonster]

I'm not sure anything new was in the article.

The team's level of complicity is new. The sponsor's investigator called it "being asleep on the job", but I think that is too kind. They went out of their way to maintain plausible deniability, and were very careful to avoid asking certain painfully obvious questions to their rider, i.e. "are you lying to the UCI?"

The sponsor's micromanagement of team affairs is also an interesting wrinkle. I'm sure not all teams are run that way.

Wimp. Another element that caught my eye, when he was on the phone..."Both men started to cry."

If you got pulled out of the MJ, you'd cry too.

Strong men also cry, dude. Strong men also cry.

[swoop]

there's no crying in baseball, but there is crying in endurance sports.

crying=campy
passionless sports/life=shimano
crying in movies only when the dog dies=sram

[paczki]

Strong men also cry, dude. Strong men also cry.

Especially when the clomiphene is talking.

[J.Greene]

The sponsor's micromanagement of team affairs is also an interesting wrinkle. I'm sure not all teams are run that way.


When The T-Mobile story is told I'm betting it will come out that the company at some level knew what was going on.

JG

[Avispa]

How far back is this? And the correlation to doping to TV coverage?

How far? 30's and 40's... and even 50's in Europe. The Tours of those days didn't last much longer than the Tours of today.

The correlation I made is the amount of $$$ involved in the sport. The minute Pro Cycling became a big time sport, the more pressure to "win at all costs" followed, atmo.

..A..

[Avispa]

only one thing has ever changed:
how news is covered atmo.

That, I agree 100% :D :D

Interesting, in CNN last night, there was a talk as how the news are covered today. They said that with the Internet and their "I-Reporters", they were able to get information as never before. In the old days, they said, people were exposed to the public on a TV show. Today is a 24 hour thing!

..A..

[Avispa]

And Barry Bonds wouldn't have the home run records and certain track records would still stand. So what?

For cycling in particular, I think there is an inevitable continual improvement curve due to the fact that it is an equipment intensive sport. Times improve as equipment improves. Factor in improvements from improved training techniques and knowledge and I think we're fine.

We don't NEED chemical enhancement. But we do need an even playing field.


I believe that we humans have reached a plateau in terms of physical capabilities and doping is a way, the only way to enhance on that... As far as the technology behind the equipment, sometimes it seems to be as if we are also reaching a limit.

..A..

[goonster]

When The T-Mobile story is told I'm betting it will come out that the company at some level knew what was going on.

Probably. Another interesting nugget from the article was Pat McQuaid's shock at the involvement of the Freiburg doctors. The clinic obviously had some sort of cooperating deal with the team, but these were still M.D.'s answering to a higher authority, i.e. not in the direct employ of the team. There is an interesting story there.

[e-RICHIE]

That, I agree 100% :D :D

Interesting, in CNN last night, there was a talk as how the news are covered today. They said that with the Internet and their "I-Reporters", they were able to get information as never before. In the old days, they said, people were exposed to the public on a TV show. Today is a 24 hour thing!

..A..
it's not that.
it's a respect for privacy that is lost. from politicians and their habits
to what happens in a huddle; nothing is sacred anymore. and it's not
because it was sacred before. it's because news and information is
commidified atmo. everything is for sale.

[CaptStash]

I believe that we humans have reached a plateau in terms of physical capabilities and doping is a way, the only way to enhance on that... As far as the technology behind the equipment, sometimes it seems to be as if we are also reaching a limit.

..A..

Oh Baloney! We've been hearing that for the last thirty or forty years! As an example, the average height and life span of Americans continues to increase. (Not sure about world population) This in itself would suggest that we are nowhere near any so called physical limit or plateau to performance. Plus equipment keeps getting better. Check out the new Zipp wheels and the purported benefits of tubeless wheels.

But that is beside the point. So what if we are at a physical limitation. Isn't the point of being a champion that you are the best right now? There isn't any way to say that Armstrong was a faster TDF rider than LeMond because they never raced raced against each other on a tour. So we will always be able to argue that this guy or that guy was better. That's half the fun anyway.

I have a friend who was a Polish Olympic athlete back in the days of the Eastern Block. He used steroids because he didn't have a choice. He is now paying severe health consequences. You can't tell me that better performance through chemicals is ok because it's the only way to go faster.

And cheating is STILL against the rules.

Now I'm up to six cents.

CaptStash....

[coylifut]

I'm not sure anything new was in the article, just the opening paragraph where they offered that Rasmussen considered suicide (which was news to me). It did let us know that he also weaseled his wifey into the lie/scandal as he claimed he was with her in Mexico. Weak. The cat is a weasel.

"On June 4th his Mexican wife Cariza drove him to the airport of Verona. There he pretended to take a plane to the New World. In reality he secretly returned to Lazise, where he moved in with a friend. Afterwards, the Dane would claim that marital problems prompted his behaviour. "

Weak, he claimed marital issues, used his wife so he could go shoot up EPO. He also used his employees from Los Locos Bike Shop, having them lie for him too.

Wimp. Another element that caught my eye, when he was on the phone..."Both men started to cry." I swear that women are tougher than men in professional soccer and professional cycling. Too many men are wimps, literally.

all of the above clearly makes him a weasel, but what really takes the cake is his attempt to dupe his mountain bike friend into carrying doping products from Boulder to Italy. He's a real POS for that move.

[swoop]

you have to be pretty selfish to bike race. and so there's a central paradox...

[zeroking17]

it's not that.
it's a respect for privacy that is lost. from politicians and their habits
to what happens in a huddle; nothing is sacred anymore. and it's not
because it was sacred before. it's because news and information is
commidified atmo. everything is for sale.

I agree 100%.

ps This also applies to the degree to which we're "comfortable" having our government, businesses (sharing our credit card buying habits), and google (keeping a database of who searches for what on the net) invading our privacy. As a sweeping generalization, I'd say that younger people are more comfortable with less privacy than are we baby boomers.

[capybaras]

Especially when the clomiphene is talking.

I hate it when that happens.

[Fixed]

: lie for him too.

Wimp. Another element that caught my eye, when he was on the phone..."Both men started to cry." I swear that women are tougher than men in professional soccer and professional cycling. Too many men are wimps, literally.
bro you'd cry too if you saw a million bucs flyin out the window
cheers imho :beer:

[michael white]

regardless how he got into the yellow jersey, and it's pretty obvious how he did it, it was a hellava dream to come crashing down all at once. Anyone, anyone would cry.

[Avispa]

I just stumbled on this blog, it's about doping and other cycling things. Check it out:

http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/

..A..

[Louis]

it's a respect for privacy that is lost

Privacy, ha. Others might say that it's the hypocrisy or the press complicity that's lost.

If Politician A is calling for Politician B to be impeached because B is known to have been fooling around while A is also fooling around on the side, I want the press to tell me about that.

Louis

[e-RICHIE]

Privacy, ha. Others might say that it's the hypocrisy or the press complicity that's lost.

If Politician A is calling for Politician B to be impeached because B is known to have been fooling around while A is also fooling around on the side, I want the press to tell me about that.

Louis
we live in two different worlds atmo.

[J.Greene]

news and information is
commidified atmo. everything is for sale.

It's a contact sport!

JG

[Viper]

Especially when the clomiphene is talking.

You read my atmo, I mean my mind. :D

[rwsaunders]

great post atmo.
folks yearn for entertainment and need heroes.
doping (in cycling) goes back to the first race.
we keep watching, so they keep racing. and
cycling is a euro sport primarliy. trying to see
the culture through white, middle class, suburban
rose colored glasses won't work. it's all been said
before: the races are too long, there are too many
of them, and many who are paid to race are the
human equivilant of greyhounds. the kids come
up in a system that protects its own atmo.

Nice post indeed. I read the article and it sounds like a Bourne movie in a way.

ERichie speaks my sentiments to the tee. It's a very difficult sport at that level and the expectations are superhuman. Although they're supposed to be a member of a team, we all know that these cyclists are essentially on their own.

I certainly don't have the answers, as we all preach a "drug free" life to our kids. Something has taken hold of professional sports and at least it appears that cycling is trying to take the lead in an attempt to mitigate the drug environment.

[capybaras]

Originally Posted by paczki:
Especially when the clomiphene is talking.


You read my atmo, I mean my mind. :D

I hate it when that happens.