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Too Tall
12-28-2007, 08:13 AM
Without intelligent conversation and strong opinions, the Dark Ages seem more a reality than past history.

rwsaunders
12-28-2007, 08:59 AM
Seemed like she was some sort of link to sanity in that area. Why the hell would she expose herself like that in the car? We'll never know.

93legendti
12-28-2007, 09:34 AM
Not sure, why this one should put you over the edge. Assassinations, sadly, are almost a common occurrence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinated_people

Pakistan
Liaquat Ali Khan, (1951), Prime Minister
Meena Keshwar Kamal, (1987), founder of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan
Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, 1988, 10-year President of Pakistan .
Abdullah Yusuf Azzam, (1989),
Fazle Haq, (1991), governor of the Northwest Frontier
Iqbal Masih, (1995), anti-child labor activist
Siddiq Khan Kanju, (2001), former foreign minister
Benazir Bhutto, (2007), former Prime Minister
Afghanistan

Habibullah Khan, (1919), emir of Afghanistan
Mohammed Nader Shah, (1933), king of Afghanistan
Mohammed Daoud Khan, (1978), president of Afghanistan
Adolph Dubs, (1979), U.S. ambassador
Nur Mohammad Taraki, (1979), communist president
Hafizullah Amin, (1979), communist Prime Minister of Afghanistan killed during Soviet invasion
Mohammed Najibullah, (1996), president of Afghanistan from 1986 to 1992
Ahmed Shah Massoud, (2001), leader of the Afghan Northern Alliance
Abdul Haq, (2001), Afghan Northern Alliance commander killed by remnants of the Taliban
Abdul Qadir, (2002), vice-president of Afghanistan
Abdul Rahman, (2002), Afghan Minister for Civil Aviation and Tourism
Abdul Sabur Farid Kuhestani, (2007), former Prime Minister of Afghanistan

India

Mohandas Gandhi, (1948), Independence leader
Indira Gandhi, (1984), Indian prime minister
Rajiv Gandhi, (1991), former Indian prime minister, son of Indira
Beant Singh(Chief Minister), (1995), chief minister of Punjab
Phoolan Devi, (2001), bandit queen turned politician and activist for people of lower castes
Abdul Ghani Lone, (2002), moderate leader of Kashmiri Muslims
General Arun Shridhar Vaidya, Chief of Army Staff, Indian Army from 1983 to 1986.

Lebanon

Sami al-Hinnawi, (1950), Syrian head of state
Kamal Jumblatt, (1977), Lebanese Druze leader
Tony Frangieh, (1978), Lebanese Christian leader
Bachir Gemayel, (1982), president-elect of Lebanon
Maya Gemayel, (1979), daughter of president-elect Bachir Gemayel
Rashid Karami, (1987), Prime Minister of Lebanon
René Moawad, (1989), President of Lebanon
Dany Chamoun, (1990), son of late president Camille Chamoun
Elie Hobeika, (2002), Lebanese militia leader
Rafik Hariri, (2005), former Prime Minister of Lebanon
Bassel Fleihan, (2005), Lebanese legislator and Minister of Economy and Commerce
Samir Kassir, (2005), Columnist at "An Nahar" daily Lebanese newspaper, long a fiery critic of Syria
George Hawi, (2005), former chief of Lebanese Communist Party
Gibran Tueni, (2005), Editor in Chief of "An Nahar" daily Lebanese newspaper
Pierre Gemayel, (2006), Minister of Industry of Lebanon
Walid Eido, (2007), member of the National Assembly
Antoine Ghanim, (2007), member of the National Assembly


Japan
Okubo Toshimichi, (1878), Prime Minister of Japan
Ito Hirobumi, (1909), First Prime Minister of Japan
Hara Takashi, (1921), Prime Minister of Japan
Hamaguchi Osachi, (1931), Prime Minister of Japan
Takuma Dan, (1932), zaibatsu leader
Inukai Tsuyoshi, (1932), Prime Minister of Japan
Takahashi Korekiyo, (1936), Prime Minister of Japan
Isoroku Yamamoto, (1943), Japanese Admiral
Inejiro Asanuma, (1960), Socialist Party of Japan chairman
Hitoshi Igarashi, (1991), translated The Satanic Verses into Japanese
Hideo Murai, (1995), one of the leading members of Aum Shinrikyo
Koki Ishii, (2002), Japanese politician
Iccho Itoh, (2007), Mayor of Nagasaki

Philippines
Julio Nalundasan, (1935), Ilocos Congressman, young Ferdinand Marcos tried but acquitted for the slaying
Jose Abad Santos, {1942), Supreme Court Chief Justice
Aurora Quezon, (1949), former First Lady of the Philippines
Ponciano Bernardo, (1949), mayor of then Philippine capital Quezon City
James Gordon, (1967), Olongapo City mayor
Juan M. Alberto, (1967), Catanduanes governor and GSIS president
Guillermo de Vega, (1975), Executive Secretary and Board of Censors head
Joe Lingad, (1980), former Pampanga governor
Benigno Aquino, Jr., (1983), senator and politician, leader of the opposition against Ferdinand Marcos
Cesar Climaco, (1984), famed mayor of Zamboanga City and prominent opposition leader
Evelio Javier, (1986), Antique governor and ally of then presidential candidate Corazon Aquino
Emma Henry, (1986), police officer and film actress
Elvira Mangahan, (1986), actress, host and fashion designer.
Rolando Olalia, (1987), head of the Kilusang Mayo Uno
Lean Alejandro, (1987), prominent student activist leader
Jaime Ferrer, (1987), Interior and Local Government Cabinet Secretary
Roy Padilla, Sr., (1988), Camarines Sur governor, father of Robin Padilla
James N. Rowe (1989), US Military advisor
Moises Espinosa, (1989), Masbate Congressman
Bonifacio D. Uy, 1989, Ilagan, Isabela mayor
Eduardo Batalla, (1989), AFP general
Oscar Florendo, (1990), AFP general and spokesperson
Francisco Abalos, (1992), Lanao del Norte governor
Jose M. Crisol, (1993), former Defense Department official, leading counter-insurgency tactician
Tito Espinosa, (1995), Masbate Congressman
Alberto Berbon, (1996), DZMM senior editor and journalist
Rolando Abadilla, (1996), controversial Marcos era military officer
Clarence Aragao, (1996), human rights lawyer
Marcial Punzalan, (2001), Quezon Congressman
Rodolfo Aguinaldo, (2001), former Cagayan governor and Congressman
Filemon 'Ka Popoy' Lagman, (2001), founder of the Bukluran ng Manggagawang Pilipino (BMP)
Romulo Kintanar, (2003), leader of the New People's Army (NPA)
Arturo Tabara, (2004), leader of Revolutionary Workers' Party
Henry Lanot, (2004), former Pasig City Congressman
Romeo Sanchez and Abelardo Ladera, (2005), local Filipino politicians and
William Tadena, (2005), clergyman with the Philippine Independent Church, by anti-NPA vigilantes
Marlene Esperat, (2005), Sultan Kudarat journalist and Department of Agriculture officer
Fausto Seachon, (2005), former Masbate Congressman
Amir bin Muhammad Baraguir, (2006), Sultan of Maguindanao
Renato Marasigan, (2006), Pasig police chief
Fernando U. Batul, (2006), DYPR broadcast journalist/commentator, former Puerto Princesa City, Palawan vice-mayor
Noli Capulong, (2006), Bayan Muna activist and pastor
Sotero Llamas, (2006), former Rebel Leader, activist and former governatorial candidate of Albay
Delfinito Albano, (2006), Ilagan,Isabela Mayor
Pablo Glean, (2006), Makati business manager and bodyguard of Makati Mayor Jejomar Binay
Alberto Ramento, (2006), bishop of Independent Church
James Bersamin, (2006), Board Member of the 2nd District of Abra
Luis Bersamin, (2006), Congressman of Abra
Federico Delgado, (2007), Citadel officer, businessman
Julia Campbell, (2007), Freelance journalist and U.S. Peace Corps volunteer
Jomel Bocalbos, (2007), Makati deputy chief of police (killed by robbers)
Alioden Dalaig, (2007), Law Department Chief and Director of COMELEC
Joseph Del Rosario, (2007), COMELEC Officer from Cavite
Wahab Akbar, (2007), Representative form Basilan

Sri Lanka
V. Dharmalingam, (1985), MP, Manipay, by TELO aligned to Indian Intelligence Agency
K. Alalasunderam, (1985), MP, Kopay, by TELO aligned to Indian Intelligence Agency
A. Majeed, (1987), former MP, Mutur, by Tamil Tigers??
Vijaya Kumaratunga, (1989), movie actor turned SLFP-SLMP politician, by JVP.
Stanley Wijesundara (1989), Colombo University Vice Chancellor, by JVP.
V. Yogeswaran, (1989), former MP, Jaffna, by dissident group of LTTE aligned to Indian Intelligence Agency
A. Amrithalingam, (1989), former MP, General Secretary, TULF, by dissident group of LTTE aligned to Indian Intelligence Agency
K.Gunaratnam, (1989), business entrepreneur, by JVP.
Rohana Wijeweera, (1989), founder of JVP, by Sri Lankan Armed Forces
T. Ganeshalingam, (1990), Minister, North East Provincial Council, by Tamil Tigers
Sam Tambimuttu, (1990), MP, Batticaloa, by Tamil Tigers
P. Kirubakaran, (1990), Finance Minister, North East Provincial Council, by Tamil Tigers
V. Yogasankari, (1990), MP, Jaffna, by Tamil Tigers
K. Kanagaratnam, (1990), MP, Eastern Province, by Tamil Tigers
Ranjan Wijeratne, (1991), Minister of State, Defence
Ranasinghe Premadasa, (1993), President of Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
Ossie Abeygunasekara, (1994), member of Parliament Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
Dr. Gamini Wijesekara, (1994), member of Parliament Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
Weerasinghe Mallimarachchi, (1994), member of Parliament Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
G. M. Premachandra, (1994), member of Parliament Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
Gamini Dissanayake, (1994), Presidential candidate, UNP, member of Parliament Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
Thomas Anton, (1995), Deputy Mayor, Batticaloa, by Tamil Tigers
Arunachalam Thangathurai, (1997), member of Parliament Trincomalee
Mohammad Maharoof, (1997), Member of Parliament (MP), Trincomalee, by Tamil Tigers
Sarojini Yogeswaran, (1998), Jaffna Mayor, by Tamil Tigers
S. Shanmuganadan, (1998), Member of Parliament (MP), by Tamil Tigers
Ponnudurai Sivapalan, (1998), Jaffna Mayor, by Tamil Tigers
Neelan Thiruchelvam, (1999), Member of Parliament (MP) and TULF leader
C. V. Gunaratne, (2000), cabinet minister, by Tamil Tigers
Joseph Pararajasingham, (2005), Tamil MP in Batticalo, by GoSL supported para-military Karuna Group
Lakshman Kadirgamar, (2005), foreign minister, by Tamil Tigers
Vanniasingham Vigneswaran, (2006), Tamil rights activist by by GoSL supported Karuna Group
Parami Kulatunga, (2006), army general
Nadarajah Raviraj (2006), Tamil National Alliance politician, by SL paramilitary Group
S P TamilSelvan (2007), Tamil Tigers Political Leader, by Sri Lankan Air Force aligned to Indian Intelligence Agency

thwart
12-28-2007, 09:38 AM
Good article from the NYT:

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/27/benazir-bhutto-and-the-politics-of-chaos/index.html

Avispa
12-28-2007, 09:39 AM
Yeah, that was the saddest news I read yesterday...

Ray
12-28-2007, 09:43 AM
Not sure, why this one should put you over the edge. Assassinations, sadly, are almost a common occurrence:

Very true, but this one is particularly bad because its a country WITH nuclear bombs teetering on the edge of extremism in a way they haven't since they've had the bomb and at a time when the entire region is less stable than its been in quite a while.

Whether she could have done anything about it had she lived and been elected is an open question, but sadly academic now.

-Ray

93legendti
12-28-2007, 09:47 AM
Very true, but this one is particularly bad because its a country WITH nuclear bombs teetering on the edge of extremism in a way they haven't since they've had the bomb and at a time when the entire region is less stable than its been in quite a while.

Whether she could have done anything about it had she lived and been elected is an open question, but sadly academic now.

-Ray
I don't disagree, although ranking "bad" assassinations is not something I can do. I think they are all bad, even in the many countries with nuclear weapons that have endured and survived political assassinations.

Viper
12-28-2007, 09:47 AM
Sadly, I wasn't even surprised to hear the news yesterday am. I watched it throughout the day and it was deepy sad to watch her speech a few weeks ago when she offered, "I do not believe anyone will try to kill me, I am a woman and it is against Muslim faith to do so..."

In a region of chaos and puppets, she seemed so sincere, honest and capable; her voice reminded me of Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Archbishop Tutu. In a landscape which seems bleak and dark, Ms. Bhutto was a shining light.

For her, Ms. Bhutto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgZYlTpRoRc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xqjsP9Un8I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIZXeP5Wzew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFJsQ5a0g4M

One Tree Hill

We turn away to face the cold, enduring chill
As the day begs the night for mercy love
The sun so bright it leaves no shadows
Only scars carved into stone
On the face of earth
The moon is up and over One Tree Hill
We see the sun go down in your eyes

You run like river to the sea
You run like a river runs to the sea

And in the world a heart of darkness
A fire zone
Where poets speak their heart
Then bleed for it
Jara sang his song a weapon
In the hands of love
You know his blood still cries
From the ground

It runs like a river runs to the sea
It runs like a river to the sea

I don't believe in painted roses
Or bleeding hearts
While bullets rape the night of the merciful
I'll see you again
When the stars fall from the sky
And the moon has turned red
Over One Tree Hill

We run like a river
Run to the sea
We run like a river to the sea
And when it's raining
Raining hard
That's when the rain will
Break my heart
Rain
Rain
Break my heart

Rain...raining in the heart
Raining in your heart
Rain...raining to your heart
Raining, raining...raining
Raining to your heart
Raining...raining in your heart
Raining in your heart..

Oh great ocean
Oh great sea
We run to the ocean
Run to the sea

Dr. Doofus
12-28-2007, 09:53 AM
μάρτυς -- one who bears witness...who bears one's body as a testament to belief and sacrifice...how some cats can sophistically twist this beautiful act of love and fidelity into a justification for taking another's life, before taking their own, i don't get....

as a species, we have a gift for destroying the best examples of ourselves

sellsworth
12-28-2007, 11:30 AM
I had the great fortune to attend a speech by Bhutto a few years ago at Lake Tahoe. It was obvious to me why she has been so influential. She was very charismatic and intelligent. Her message of tolerance and understanding was inspirational. I really admire her for going back to Pakistan when she knew that her life would be in danger - she certainly didn't take the easy way out.

Ahneida Ride
12-28-2007, 11:46 AM
Very true, but this one is particularly bad because its a country WITH nuclear bombs. -Ray

Nuclear weapons .... Kinda colors the discussion. If not, it had better.

jerk
12-28-2007, 11:53 AM
the long and short of it is that musharref has an opportunity here. the army needed a bougeois ally to counterbalance the growing aliance between the disenfranchised muslim street and the tribal boondock 13th century comtingent. its sad, but it could also be the lynchpin that finally allies the middle class, educated elite with the army thereby preventing wjat happened in Iran. remember the vast number of middle class Iranians wanted the sha gone too.....
suffice it to say, Musharraf is no better or worse than anyone any Islamist/tribal alliance would put in his place...except for the fact that hes more than happy to let the us airforce use Pakistan's airspace....which pretty much means hes our man untill soviet asia runs out of oil.

its a sick stupid world out there, and the cynic in me says this wasnt perpetrated by people oitside the ruling pakistani junta.

jerk

norman neville
12-28-2007, 12:12 PM
and a poor career move for a perceived puppet of the us to go back to pakistan about now. at least busharraf still has the military and the isi behind him, so his oppenents can expect a world of hurt and possibly a glow-in-the-dark crater when and if he bites it.

every member of bhutto's immediate family met a death by violence except her mother.

her husband, asif zardari, was known in pakistan as mr. ten-percent, always with his hand out. keep in mind, bhutto was ousted twice, and not because she was a great and forward-thinking leader. apparently she was pretty close to being the proud recipient of an interpol warrant because of all the plundering of pakistan under her watch and the amazing growth of her personal fortune at the same time.

if she represented hope, it was the hope of the west, desperate to stop some truly unsavory anti-american fellas from getting access to pakistan's nukes, as opposed to the truly unsavory, somewhat-supportive-of-american-interests fellas that have 'em now.

the american and european media loved to portray her as some sort of leading-edge, cosmopolitan middle-eastern, or south asian, political leader. she could sling the bs to make westerners go all gooey--she wasn't sent to oxford and harvard for nothing; unfortunately, her time in office showed that she was nothing more than the continuation of her family business, the political corruption which has sought to plunder that part of the world for it's own selfish gain.

it is truly tragic that so many other people died with her yesterday. and now the us needs the general president busharraf more than ever.

norman neville
12-28-2007, 12:21 PM
suffice it to say, Musharraf is no better or worse than anyone any Islamist/tribal alliance would put in his place...except for the fact that hes more than happy to let the us airforce use Pakistan's airspace....which pretty much means hes our man untill soviet asia runs out of oil.

its a sick stupid world out there, and the cynic in me says this wasnt perpetrated by people oitside the ruling pakistani junta.

jerk

the assassination may very well have been musharraf using the isi to poke washington in the eye, saying 'i'm your dog and i'll bite'. he must have hated bhutto since he surely knows that there's not room for more than one american lickspittle at the head of his dirty little country. well, now she's gone and perhaps he's proven his worth. if he can keep it together for another 11 months, at least.

no matter what, the us will keep tight control of the purported leadership of both afghanistan and pakistan, because it's all about the oil (and gas).

1centaur
12-28-2007, 12:34 PM
no matter what, the us will keep tight control of the purported leadership of both afghanistan and pakistan, because it's all about the oil (and gas).

This would be great if true. So far, neither the US Treasury market nor the US stock market is voting in favor of the "tight control" scenario.

mcteague
12-28-2007, 12:42 PM
When she first went back I said that someone would kill her. After they nearly did, when her motorcade was bombed, I sort of hoped she would leave. Reading about it yesterday saddened me but, unfortunately, did not surprise me. While her time as PM had it's issues with corruption she seemed a voice of reason and enlightenment in a region where many factions seem determined to return to the dark ages.

Tim McTeague

norman neville
12-28-2007, 12:43 PM
This would be great if true. So far, neither the US Treasury market nor the US stock market is voting in favor of the "tight control" scenario.

the cia guys with the guns get the vote.

MilanoTom
12-28-2007, 12:48 PM
This is the latest from CNN.com, but who knows what is credible and what isn't ...

Benazir Bhutto died from a fractured skull after hitting her head on a lever in her car -- not from a bullet or shrapnel, a spokesman for Pakistan's Interior Ministry said today. Nothing entered her head, he said.

zap
12-28-2007, 12:48 PM
snipped

which pretty much means hes our man untill soviet asia runs out of oil.



Pakistan is going to be an issue forever, or at least as long as Pakistan has nukes, oil or no oil.

It would not surprise me at all if the isi knew about the plot(s). That and Musharaf apparently not allowing international investigators to investigate the first attempt, let alone allowing Bhutto the security detail she wanted, leads me to believe that though he may not be directly involved, he didn't do much to prevent it. Or if he did, then some in the military/isi would have gone after him, which they still may do if others don't get him first.

What's surprising to me is that Bhutto knew she was a target, couldn't trust the military/isi yet appeared to take unnecessary risks.

It looks like she wanted to become a martyr.

Richard
12-28-2007, 12:59 PM
"Benazir Bhutto died from a fractured skull after hitting her head on a lever in her car -- not from a bullet or shrapnel, a spokesman for Pakistan's Interior Ministry said today. Nothing entered her head, he said."

So...the gunman failed, the bomber failed, but Musharaf's man in the car did not?

Ginger
12-28-2007, 01:33 PM
"Benazir Bhutto died from a fractured skull after hitting her head on a lever in her car -- not from a bullet or shrapnel, a spokesman for Pakistan's Interior Ministry said today. Nothing entered her head, he said."

So...the gunman failed, the bomber failed, but Musharaf's man in the car did not?
That's spin to quell rioting.

ie: She died from an accident, they didn't kill her so she's not a martyr.

I'd go with the first report.

1centaur
12-28-2007, 01:57 PM
the cia guys with the guns get the vote.

Those guys must be talented. Maybe we should get them to clean up the mess in Iraq.

norman neville
12-28-2007, 02:06 PM
Those guys must be talented. Maybe we should get them to clean up the mess in Iraq.

everything important that needs to happen in iraq is proceeding just fine.

fiamme red
12-28-2007, 02:14 PM
"And I look forward to talking to President Musharraf. Look, he doesn't like al Qaeda. They tried to kill him. And we've had a good record of bringing people to justice inside of Pakistan, because the Paks are in the lead."
-- George W. Bush (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060915-2.html)

norman neville
12-28-2007, 02:16 PM
"And I look forward to talking to President Musharraf. Look, he doesn't like al Qaeda. They tried to kill him. And we've had a good record of bringing people to justice inside of Pakistan, because the Paks are in the lead."
-- George W. Bush (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060915-2.html)

the paks couldn't beat the cowboys when it mattered...

what else is new?

Climb01742
12-28-2007, 03:41 PM
they have between 50-100 nuclear "devices". NPR had an author on this afternoon who traced how u.s. presidents (all of them since carter) allowed pakistan to both build its arsenal and sell its know-how to dictators far and wide. we're in a hell of pickle...and we helped build the pickle. :crap:

Viper
12-28-2007, 03:43 PM
"Benazir Bhutto died from a fractured skull after hitting her head on a lever in her car -- not from a bullet or shrapnel, a spokesman for Pakistan's Interior Ministry said today. Nothing entered her head, he said."

So...the gunman failed, the bomber failed, but Musharaf's man in the car did not?

They killed her and now they want to spit on her grave. Mr. Musharaf was painted and perceived as a good man, an ally...a few months ago he went fubar. Ms. Bhutto was the symbol and face of courage, Musharaf appears to be a wicked weasel. I'd like for one politician in America to speak the truth on this issue, stop walking a line, feeding lines, just say it.

"If harmed in Pakistan, I would hold Musharaf responsible Bhutto wrote in the October e-mail, revealed on air by CNN journalist Wolf Blitzer, who received it from Bhutto's friend and US spokesman Mark Siegel."

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22983634-952,00.html

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/FullcoverageStoryPage.aspx?id=bfc0776a-7a0f-48d8-b519-8ac4eb6dd6d0Benazirassassinated_Special&MatchID1=4625&TeamID1=1&TeamID2=6&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1165&MatchID2=4617&TeamID3=3&TeamID4=4&MatchType2=1&SeriesID2=1163&PrimaryID=4625&Headline=Bhutto+said+Pervez+failed+to+protect+her

1centaur
12-28-2007, 04:36 PM
they have between 50-100 nuclear "devices". NPR had an author on this afternoon who traced how u.s. presidents (all of them since carter) allowed pakistan to both build its arsenal and sell its know-how to dictators far and wide. we're in a hell of pickle...and we helped build the pickle. :crap:

US history is filled with these "best of the bad choices" moves. Attack Pakistan years ago to remove the nukes? Howls of protest. Do absolutely nothing? Could have been mayhem. Let Pakistan be weak while India is strong? Consequences uncertain but solid potential for India's territory to grow and influence to expand.

When these choices go wrong, there's always a lot of regret, but the imprecision of CIA and State Department scenario building makes that seem inevitable. We can't passively observe the world get more detrimental to our security, and we are not good at the puppet master thing. And that's before one assumes any level of corruption/treason/greed on our side.

Dr. Doofus
12-28-2007, 04:42 PM
how many pakistanis are going to lose their lives or lose the people or property that matter most to them over the next few days? how many already have? the political abstraction is fine, but meanwhile there's a lot of poor people who are going to suffer even more for their would-be masters...

Fixed
12-28-2007, 04:58 PM
bro i know and trust your o. legendti but the japanese people are very peaceful now imho
cheers

3chordwonder
12-28-2007, 05:10 PM
[QUOTE=Viper]Ms. Bhutto was the symbol and face of courage, Musharaf appears to be a wicked weasel. [/QUOTE=Viper]

As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, she wasn't the shining light of virtue her speeches suggest. I'm surprised at the amount of talk here of her in the same vein as Luther King.

As I understand it from reading over the last ten years or so, she and her family ran a corrupt regime that was far from the democratic ideal.

In the meantime, it's very possible that for Pakistan, a moderate but strong army leader is realistically about the most stable and practical solution attainable for now.

All the voices in the West crying out for full democracy there may want to be careful what they ask for. Pakistan is still a developing country. It's possible for the extremist mullahs to take over, who will then have a bunch of nukes at their disposal, and a belligerent Iran to be buddies with. Brilliant.

Surftel
12-28-2007, 05:13 PM
and a poor career move for a perceived puppet of the us to go back to pakistan about now. at least busharraf still has the military and the isi behind him, so his oppenents can expect a world of hurt and possibly a glow-in-the-dark crater when and if he bites it.

every member of bhutto's immediate family met a death by violence except her mother.

her husband, asif zardari, was known in pakistan as mr. ten-percent, always with his hand out. keep in mind, bhutto was ousted twice, and not because she was a great and forward-thinking leader. apparently she was pretty close to being the proud recipient of an interpol warrant because of all the plundering of pakistan under her watch and the amazing growth of her personal fortune at the same time.

if she represented hope, it was the hope of the west, desperate to stop some truly unsavory anti-american fellas from getting access to pakistan's nukes, as opposed to the truly unsavory, somewhat-supportive-of-american-interests fellas that have 'em now.

the american and european media loved to portray her as some sort of leading-edge, cosmopolitan middle-eastern, or south asian, political leader. she could sling the bs to make westerners go all gooey--she wasn't sent to oxford and harvard for nothing; unfortunately, her time in office showed that she was nothing more than the continuation of her family business, the political corruption which has sought to plunder that part of the world for it's own selfish gain.

it is truly tragic that so many other people died with her yesterday. and now the us needs the general president busharraf more than ever.

Well written. I am consistently surprised by the western media's view of Bhutto as some shining light of democracy. She could not be farther from it. She was a convicted criminal of massive proportions who's rule of Pakistan was completely inept, perhaps because she was too busy stealing BILLIONS of $$$.

andy mac
12-28-2007, 05:19 PM
Not sure, why this one should put you over the edge. Assassinations, sadly, are almost a common occurrence:


Pakistan
Liaquat Ali Khan, (1951), Prime Minister
Meena Keshwar Kamal, (1987), founder of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan
Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, 1988, 10-year President of Pakistan .
Abdullah Yusuf Azzam, (1989),
Fazle Haq, (1991), governor of the Northwest Frontier
Iqbal Masih, (1995), anti-child labor activist
Siddiq Khan Kanju, (2001), former foreign minister
Benazir Bhutto, (2007), former Prime Minister
Afghanistan

Habibullah Khan, (1919), emir of Afghanistan
Mohammed Nader Shah, (1933), king of Afghanistan
Mohammed Daoud Khan, (1978), president of Afghanistan
Adolph Dubs, (1979), U.S. ambassador
Nur Mohammad Taraki, (1979), communist president
Hafizullah Amin, (1979), communist Prime Minister of Afghanistan killed during Soviet invasion
Mohammed Najibullah, (1996), president of Afghanistan from 1986 to 1992
Ahmed Shah Massoud, (2001), leader of the Afghan Northern Alliance
Abdul Haq, (2001), Afghan Northern Alliance commander killed by remnants of the Taliban
Abdul Qadir, (2002), vice-president of Afghanistan
Abdul Rahman, (2002), Afghan Minister for Civil Aviation and Tourism
Abdul Sabur Farid Kuhestani, (2007), former Prime Minister of Afghanistan

India

Mohandas Gandhi, (1948), Independence leader
Indira Gandhi, (1984), Indian prime minister
Rajiv Gandhi, (1991), former Indian prime minister, son of Indira
Beant Singh(Chief Minister), (1995), chief minister of Punjab
Phoolan Devi, (2001), bandit queen turned politician and activist for people of lower castes
Abdul Ghani Lone, (2002), moderate leader of Kashmiri Muslims
General Arun Shridhar Vaidya, Chief of Army Staff, Indian Army from 1983 to 1986.

Lebanon

Sami al-Hinnawi, (1950), Syrian head of state
Kamal Jumblatt, (1977), Lebanese Druze leader
Tony Frangieh, (1978), Lebanese Christian leader
Bachir Gemayel, (1982), president-elect of Lebanon
Maya Gemayel, (1979), daughter of president-elect Bachir Gemayel
Rashid Karami, (1987), Prime Minister of Lebanon
René Moawad, (1989), President of Lebanon
Dany Chamoun, (1990), son of late president Camille Chamoun
Elie Hobeika, (2002), Lebanese militia leader
Rafik Hariri, (2005), former Prime Minister of Lebanon
Bassel Fleihan, (2005), Lebanese legislator and Minister of Economy and Commerce
Samir Kassir, (2005), Columnist at "An Nahar" daily Lebanese newspaper, long a fiery critic of Syria
George Hawi, (2005), former chief of Lebanese Communist Party
Gibran Tueni, (2005), Editor in Chief of "An Nahar" daily Lebanese newspaper
Pierre Gemayel, (2006), Minister of Industry of Lebanon
Walid Eido, (2007), member of the National Assembly
Antoine Ghanim, (2007), member of the National Assembly


Japan
Okubo Toshimichi, (1878), Prime Minister of Japan
Ito Hirobumi, (1909), First Prime Minister of Japan
Hara Takashi, (1921), Prime Minister of Japan
Hamaguchi Osachi, (1931), Prime Minister of Japan
Takuma Dan, (1932), zaibatsu leader
Inukai Tsuyoshi, (1932), Prime Minister of Japan
Takahashi Korekiyo, (1936), Prime Minister of Japan
Isoroku Yamamoto, (1943), Japanese Admiral
Inejiro Asanuma, (1960), Socialist Party of Japan chairman
Hitoshi Igarashi, (1991), translated The Satanic Verses into Japanese
Hideo Murai, (1995), one of the leading members of Aum Shinrikyo
Koki Ishii, (2002), Japanese politician
Iccho Itoh, (2007), Mayor of Nagasaki

Philippines
Julio Nalundasan, (1935), Ilocos Congressman, young Ferdinand Marcos tried but acquitted for the slaying
Jose Abad Santos, {1942), Supreme Court Chief Justice
Aurora Quezon, (1949), former First Lady of the Philippines
Ponciano Bernardo, (1949), mayor of then Philippine capital Quezon City
James Gordon, (1967), Olongapo City mayor
Juan M. Alberto, (1967), Catanduanes governor and GSIS president
Guillermo de Vega, (1975), Executive Secretary and Board of Censors head
Joe Lingad, (1980), former Pampanga governor
Benigno Aquino, Jr., (1983), senator and politician, leader of the opposition against Ferdinand Marcos
Cesar Climaco, (1984), famed mayor of Zamboanga City and prominent opposition leader
Evelio Javier, (1986), Antique governor and ally of then presidential candidate Corazon Aquino
Emma Henry, (1986), police officer and film actress
Elvira Mangahan, (1986), actress, host and fashion designer.
Rolando Olalia, (1987), head of the Kilusang Mayo Uno
Lean Alejandro, (1987), prominent student activist leader
Jaime Ferrer, (1987), Interior and Local Government Cabinet Secretary
Roy Padilla, Sr., (1988), Camarines Sur governor, father of Robin Padilla
James N. Rowe (1989), US Military advisor
Moises Espinosa, (1989), Masbate Congressman
Bonifacio D. Uy, 1989, Ilagan, Isabela mayor
Eduardo Batalla, (1989), AFP general
Oscar Florendo, (1990), AFP general and spokesperson
Francisco Abalos, (1992), Lanao del Norte governor
Jose M. Crisol, (1993), former Defense Department official, leading counter-insurgency tactician
Tito Espinosa, (1995), Masbate Congressman
Alberto Berbon, (1996), DZMM senior editor and journalist
Rolando Abadilla, (1996), controversial Marcos era military officer
Clarence Aragao, (1996), human rights lawyer
Marcial Punzalan, (2001), Quezon Congressman
Rodolfo Aguinaldo, (2001), former Cagayan governor and Congressman
Filemon 'Ka Popoy' Lagman, (2001), founder of the Bukluran ng Manggagawang Pilipino (BMP)
Romulo Kintanar, (2003), leader of the New People's Army (NPA)
Arturo Tabara, (2004), leader of Revolutionary Workers' Party
Henry Lanot, (2004), former Pasig City Congressman
Romeo Sanchez and Abelardo Ladera, (2005), local Filipino politicians and
William Tadena, (2005), clergyman with the Philippine Independent Church, by anti-NPA vigilantes
Marlene Esperat, (2005), Sultan Kudarat journalist and Department of Agriculture officer
Fausto Seachon, (2005), former Masbate Congressman
Amir bin Muhammad Baraguir, (2006), Sultan of Maguindanao
Renato Marasigan, (2006), Pasig police chief
Fernando U. Batul, (2006), DYPR broadcast journalist/commentator, former Puerto Princesa City, Palawan vice-mayor
Noli Capulong, (2006), Bayan Muna activist and pastor
Sotero Llamas, (2006), former Rebel Leader, activist and former governatorial candidate of Albay
Delfinito Albano, (2006), Ilagan,Isabela Mayor
Pablo Glean, (2006), Makati business manager and bodyguard of Makati Mayor Jejomar Binay
Alberto Ramento, (2006), bishop of Independent Church
James Bersamin, (2006), Board Member of the 2nd District of Abra
Luis Bersamin, (2006), Congressman of Abra
Federico Delgado, (2007), Citadel officer, businessman
Julia Campbell, (2007), Freelance journalist and U.S. Peace Corps volunteer
Jomel Bocalbos, (2007), Makati deputy chief of police (killed by robbers)
Alioden Dalaig, (2007), Law Department Chief and Director of COMELEC
Joseph Del Rosario, (2007), COMELEC Officer from Cavite
Wahab Akbar, (2007), Representative form Basilan

Sri Lanka
V. Dharmalingam, (1985), MP, Manipay, by TELO aligned to Indian Intelligence Agency
K. Alalasunderam, (1985), MP, Kopay, by TELO aligned to Indian Intelligence Agency
A. Majeed, (1987), former MP, Mutur, by Tamil Tigers??
Vijaya Kumaratunga, (1989), movie actor turned SLFP-SLMP politician, by JVP.
Stanley Wijesundara (1989), Colombo University Vice Chancellor, by JVP.
V. Yogeswaran, (1989), former MP, Jaffna, by dissident group of LTTE aligned to Indian Intelligence Agency
A. Amrithalingam, (1989), former MP, General Secretary, TULF, by dissident group of LTTE aligned to Indian Intelligence Agency
K.Gunaratnam, (1989), business entrepreneur, by JVP.
Rohana Wijeweera, (1989), founder of JVP, by Sri Lankan Armed Forces
T. Ganeshalingam, (1990), Minister, North East Provincial Council, by Tamil Tigers
Sam Tambimuttu, (1990), MP, Batticaloa, by Tamil Tigers
P. Kirubakaran, (1990), Finance Minister, North East Provincial Council, by Tamil Tigers
V. Yogasankari, (1990), MP, Jaffna, by Tamil Tigers
K. Kanagaratnam, (1990), MP, Eastern Province, by Tamil Tigers
Ranjan Wijeratne, (1991), Minister of State, Defence
Ranasinghe Premadasa, (1993), President of Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
Ossie Abeygunasekara, (1994), member of Parliament Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
Dr. Gamini Wijesekara, (1994), member of Parliament Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
Weerasinghe Mallimarachchi, (1994), member of Parliament Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
G. M. Premachandra, (1994), member of Parliament Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
Gamini Dissanayake, (1994), Presidential candidate, UNP, member of Parliament Sri Lanka, by Tamil Tigers
Thomas Anton, (1995), Deputy Mayor, Batticaloa, by Tamil Tigers
Arunachalam Thangathurai, (1997), member of Parliament Trincomalee
Mohammad Maharoof, (1997), Member of Parliament (MP), Trincomalee, by Tamil Tigers
Sarojini Yogeswaran, (1998), Jaffna Mayor, by Tamil Tigers
S. Shanmuganadan, (1998), Member of Parliament (MP), by Tamil Tigers
Ponnudurai Sivapalan, (1998), Jaffna Mayor, by Tamil Tigers
Neelan Thiruchelvam, (1999), Member of Parliament (MP) and TULF leader
C. V. Gunaratne, (2000), cabinet minister, by Tamil Tigers
Joseph Pararajasingham, (2005), Tamil MP in Batticalo, by GoSL supported para-military Karuna Group
Lakshman Kadirgamar, (2005), foreign minister, by Tamil Tigers
Vanniasingham Vigneswaran, (2006), Tamil rights activist by by GoSL supported Karuna Group
Parami Kulatunga, (2006), army general
Nadarajah Raviraj (2006), Tamil National Alliance politician, by SL paramilitary Group
S P TamilSelvan (2007), Tamil Tigers Political Leader, by Sri Lankan Air Force aligned to Indian Intelligence Agency

Ummm, you forgot to list the American ones...

Ray
12-28-2007, 05:35 PM
In the meantime, it's very possible that for Pakistan, a moderate but strong army leader is realistically about the most stable and practical solution attainable for now.

All the voices in the West crying out for full democracy there may want to be careful what they ask for. Pakistan is still a developing country. Just like in the Gaza strip, it's possible that the will of 50% or more of the people in Pakistan turns out to be for the extremist mullahs to take over, who will then have a bunch of nukes at their disposal, and a belligerent Iran to be buddies with. Brilliant.
Except for the "moderate" part of the military leader and the current "nukes at their disposal" parts, sounds just about exactly like Iraq five years ago. And bigger, of course. Hey, lets invade!

-Ray

Darrell
12-28-2007, 05:47 PM
Seemed like she was some sort of link to sanity in that area. Why the hell would she expose herself like that in the car? We'll never know.

how she was going to die
and for the people
she was not perfect
but she was going about it the way she thought best for the people
it was not about her ego entirely
the people

93legendti
12-28-2007, 05:57 PM
Ummm, you forgot to list the American ones...
The list is actually at least 5 x longer, there is a character limit on posts here. I was highlighting recent ones in that area.

Smiley
12-28-2007, 06:02 PM
Anwar Sadat , in broad daylight by his own Miliary men !

93legendti
12-28-2007, 06:04 PM
Pakistan does not have democratic elections?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Pakistan

I find it interesting how people claim we should have "stopped Pakistan from getting nukes". How exactly does one do that?

93legendti
12-28-2007, 06:05 PM
Anwar Sadat , in broad daylight by his own Miliary men !

Yes, as well as Yitzhak Rabin and Rehavam Zee'vi.

Viper
12-28-2007, 06:13 PM
All the voices in the West crying out for full democracy there may want to be careful what they ask for. Pakistan is still a developing country. It's possible for the extremist mullahs to take over, who will then have a bunch of nukes at their disposal, and a belligerent Iran to be buddies with. Brilliant.

There's another country in the Middle East...extreme....they have nukes, had em' for quite some time now, even offered, "The Arabs have the oil, but we have the matches." Now that's scary stuff, no? Tears for Fears was correct, "Everybody wants to rule the world" and I'm constantly awaiting a large unidentifiable object to land in Central Park, DC or Israel and have a waspy looking man offer, "Folks, it's klaatu barada nikto time."***

The Pakistan/India strife has been another watch-n-see. We have several of them around the globe. Regardless of Pakistan's short-term or longterm future, Ms. Bhutto's past mistakes or her new, recent goals, she did not deserve or earn her assassination. I'm certain we all agree on this.

I hope Keanu Reeves doesn't destroy this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOA4ixV-3jU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIaxSxEqKtA

http://www.celebritypuke.com/2007/08/28/keanu-reeves-in-the-day-the-earth-stood-still/

*** = Then the UFO will disappear, leaving a coded message behind, which will take us 900 years and every 333MHz computer we have to de-code and when we do we learn what Mr. Carpenter told us, "Thanks for all the steel frames."

3chordwonder
12-28-2007, 08:04 PM
she was not perfect
but she was going about it the way she thought best for the people
it was not about her ego entirely
the people

A lovely thought and maybe even true, but the chance of that is probably 0.1%.

She has actually been in charge before and Pakistan didn't experience any golden age of enlightenment during her tenure. On the other hand, as I understand it, the Swiss government has confirmed that there's millions of $ deposited by her husband while she and her family were in power.

Viper
12-28-2007, 08:51 PM
A lovely thought and maybe even true, but the chance of that is probably 0.1%.

She has actually been in charge before and Pakistan didn't experience any golden age of enlightenment during her tenure. On the other hand, as I understand it, the Swiss government has confirmed that there's millions of $ deposited by her husband while she and her family were in power.

1). But does this ^ rationalize her assassination?

2). If she was as wealthy as you suggest, then it sounds as if she could've simply kicked back with Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, champagne wishes and caviar dreams; aren't you saying that Ms. Bhutto could've avoided returning to Pakistan and lived the life of luxury?

3). Instead, didn't she (and the Swiss bank account) get assassinated, shot in cold blood by a group of cowards?

4). Are you outraged at her assassination or more angry about her Swiss bank accounts?

5). Please name 3 World Leaders who left their offices broke (except President Carter who claims he was broke). Even certain United Nation leaders leave their helm with money in all four pockets. Why the venom for a World Leader who made a few bucks? If you believe assassinating all world leaders who made money while in office...you better have a lot of bullets.

JohnS
12-28-2007, 09:37 PM
Yes, as well as Yitzhak Rabin and Rehavam Zee'vi.
93, there was one mistake in your list. Yammamoto was killed by 6 American P38 pilots when they intercepted his 2 Betty bombers over the Pacific.

On the current subject...the US has always liked rightwing dictators...they are easier to bribe than a leftist populist.

Kevan
12-28-2007, 09:50 PM
on the puppet parade?

This just might be out of our administration's control. The entire situation is sad.

Viper
12-28-2007, 10:18 PM
on the puppet parade?

This just might be out of our administration's control. The entire situation is sad.

I'm no tin foil hat-wearer and I hang well to the right...but I think (sadly) this entire situation was partly in the control of our administration. Musharaf has been kept in power by us. I think many people looked the other way while Ms. Bhutto was in harm's way. Reading up on Mr. Pervez Musharaf is interesting...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pervez_Musharraf

Relations with Benazir Bhutto

Also on August 8, Benazir Bhutto spoke about her secret meeting with Musharraf on July 27, in an interview on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

On September 14, 2007, Deputy Information Minister Tariq Azim stated that Bhutto won't be deported, but must face corruption suits against her. He clarified Sharif's and Bhutto's right to return to Pakistan: "Nawaz Sharif's case was different. He went back to Saudi Arabia because of an undertaking he had with the Saudi government; She (Bhutto) was always allowed to come back."[60] Pakistan People's Party Farhatullah Babar said that Benazir Bhutto will forthwith declare the exact date of her return: "We are announcing the date of the return for Benazir Bhutto to Pakistan at 5:00 pm (1200 GMT)" (Makhdoom Amin Fahim will publish it at a news conference in Islamabad." Musharraf faced a rising militant violence, with a suicide bombing killing 15 elite commandos on September 13.[61] Bhutto declared her return from 8 years exile on October 18. Makhdoom Amin Faheem, vice chair of Pakistan Peoples Party said that "Benazir Bhutto will be landing in Karachi on October 18."[62]

On September 17, 2007, Bhutto accused Musharraf 's allies of pushing Pakistan to crisis by refusal to restore democracy and share power. Sheikh Rashid Ahmed stated that officials had agreed to grant Benazir Bhutto amnesty in pending corruption charges.[63]

Musharraf called for a three day mourning period after Bhutto's assassination on December 27, 2007

3chordwonder
12-29-2007, 01:37 AM
1). But does this ^ rationalize her assassination?

Why do you suggest that it would? I didn't. In fact I'm not sure anybody here did. What's your point?

2). If she was as wealthy as you suggest, then it sounds as if she could've simply kicked back with Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, champagne wishes and caviar dreams; aren't you saying that Ms. Bhutto could've avoided returning to Pakistan and lived the life of luxury?

Yes, of course she could have avoided returning to Pakistan and have lived a life of luxury. Most world leaders in history, including the bad ones, could have retired and led a happy life of luxury. It's not news that many politicians crave power for more reasons than greed only, nor does it mean that the intentions of wealthy politicians are ipso facto benevolent and altruistic.

3). Instead, didn't she (and the Swiss bank account) get assassinated, shot in cold blood by a group of cowards?

Yes. What's your point?

4). Are you outraged at her assassination or more angry about her Swiss bank accounts?

Her assassination is tragic and her Swiss bank accounts are criminal.

My only point was that she wasn't the shining light of hope, fairness and democracy equivalent to Luther King that her PR agents would try make us believe. It makes me worry about the quality of democracy we're all living in if reality can be distorted so much without question.

Don't take my word for it by the way, it's not like her history is a hidden book. Press has widely reported on her corruption issues and the history of her family in power. I'm not sure where the deification is coming from. Maybe it's just the usual 'everybody loves you when you're dead' thing.

Why the venom for a World Leader who made a few bucks?

As I understand it, government corruption is one of the key things that keeps developing countries poor and backwards. Poor people ruled by corrupt governments are an easier target for extremists to capture. So, in a roundabout way, her corruption aids those who would return Pakistan to the dark ages. That's not genuinely shining a light for democracy and freedom, as suggested.

Personally, I would say it's never truly OK for an elected and salaried official to enrich themselves illegally - it calls into question their entire moral universe, imho. But that's just my opinion.

If you believe assassinating all world leaders who made money while in office...you better have a lot of bullets.

Nice to see you qualified that statement with an 'if', because I didn't write any such thing :-)

Viper
12-29-2007, 02:47 AM
Why do you suggest that it would? I didn't. In fact I'm not sure anybody here did. What's your point?



Yes, of course she could have avoided returning to Pakistan and have lived a life of luxury. Most world leaders in history, including the bad ones, could have retired and led a happy life of luxury. It's not news that many politicians crave power for more reasons than greed only, nor does it mean that the intentions of wealthy politicians are ipso facto benevolent and altruistic.



Yes. What's your point?



Her assassination is tragic and her Swiss bank accounts are criminal.

My only point was that she wasn't the shining light of hope, fairness and democracy equivalent to Luther King that her PR agents would try make us believe. It makes me worry about the quality of democracy we're all living in if reality can be distorted so much without question.

Don't take my word for it by the way, it's not like her history is a hidden book. Press has widely reported on her corruption issues and the history of her family in power. I'm not sure where the deification is coming from. Maybe it's just the usual 'everybody loves you when you're dead' thing.



As I understand it, government corruption is one of the key things that keeps developing countries poor and backwards. Poor people ruled by corrupt governments are an easier target for extremists to capture. So, in a roundabout way, her corruption aids those who would return Pakistan to the dark ages. That's not genuinely shining a light for democracy and freedom, as suggested.

Personally, I would say it's never truly OK for an elected and salaried official to enrich themselves illegally - it calls into question their entire moral universe, imho. But that's just my opinion.



Nice to see you qualified that statement with an 'if', because I didn't write any such thing :-)

A woman was assassinated in daylight, in cold blood, by cowards and your main thrust and theme has been, "Yeah, but she has Swiss bank accounts."

That's my point.

You're attacking her character before she's buried, it would seem most logical to attack the cowards who killed her and you've spent more time, more words attacking Ms. Bhutto.

That's my point.

The "Everybody loves you when you're dead thing" you note above, while snarky, mainly due to the rule of timing ...this rule of yours doesn't seem to apply to you; clearly you're not displaying love for the 'love ya when you're dead thing-rule'. Also, fwiw, she's dead alright, because she was murdered.

Mr. Pervez Musharaf is corrupt, look at what he's pulled these past 6-8 weeks, speaking of corrupt and that man, well he just dug himself in really deep; the eyes of the entire world are now watching him, watching Pakistan.

Al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for her murder, your thoughts (Swiss accounts aside)?

Ms. Bhutto may not be a hero in your heart or your mind and just because you feel that way, doesn't make it so. One could take this assassination and look at it from 30K feet, offering many paint colors, schemes and grand paint brushes via macro political theories...but the simple fact remains: Ms. Bhutto was assassinated in cold blood, in broad daylight, in public, she was fighting for peace, for unity, against Mr. Pervez's recent communist-like dicatatorship, she predicted he would play a role in her death and sadly she was correct as she was murdered.

There are several fingers to point at corruption in the Middle East and the other players in that ballpark, seems to me that offending Ms. Bhutto would be illogical. Blame the victim? Not me. All that Swiss money you reference, didn't she come from money? Indeed. She came from power. She rose to power (unlike 'President' Pervez Musharaf who siezed it via a coup) and was stripped of power due to 'alleged corruption' lol.

These are my points.


Here are some facts, not personal feelings about Swiss money, cash which cannot bring her back to life and undo the sickly assassination:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto

3chordwonder
12-29-2007, 03:06 AM
'Viper'... reading your post, it seems you're convinced she was a hero fighting for peace, for unity, against a 'communist-like dicatatorship'. (dictatorship is what you really meant to type there, I imagine).

Consequently, anybody bringing up uncomfortable truths is going to offend you, so let's leave it at that.

Viper
12-29-2007, 03:16 AM
Consequently, anybody bringing up uncomfortable truths is going to offend you, so let's leave it at that.

Hyperbole aside, are you raising 'truths' or your perceptions?

Can you tell us why she was placed under house arrest?

Ironically, she wasn't killed for her Swiss bank accounts, nor under house arrest for her income, no, according the group who killed her, they did so because she was, "The most precious American asset." They felt she was a voice of democracy, she was speaking outward and downwardy about the Taliban and Bin Laden, she was to have run for office and BAM, that is why she was killed.

I'd prefer to focus on the crime, the cause and the cowards, not the Swiss bank accounts.

Let's leave it at that.

3chordwonder
12-29-2007, 04:07 AM
Hyperbole aside, are you raising 'truths' or your perceptions?

All I'm going on is years of widespread reporting about her and her family's corruption in the mainstream media. It's a little harsh to imply I'm making it up out of thin air.

I didn't imply or say that she 'deserved' being killed by religious nutters or whoever else it will later turn out did it. Please read my posts.

My point was simply that I find it bizarre that she's suddenly being compared to Luther King now that somebody murdered her. There's no need to start reading some communist conspiracy into that, nor support for killing somebody. That's *way* over the top.

93legendti
12-29-2007, 08:07 AM
93, there was one mistake in your list. Yammamoto was killed by 6 American P38 pilots when they intercepted his 2 Betty bombers over the Pacific.

On the current subject...the US has always liked rightwing dictators...they are easier to bribe than a leftist populist.
Oops, stevep told me I coluld rely on google.

Anyway, I see another forumite blames the administration for the killing. I was waiting for that. I guess Yitzhak Rabin's murder must have been Pres. Clinton's fault.

stevep
12-29-2007, 08:27 AM
Oops, stevep told me I coluld rely on google.
.

disclaimer: im not an md

diagnosis: sometime one valium might not be enough

BumbleBeeDave
12-29-2007, 08:56 AM
. . . on that long, slippery slope to the Master Lock in the cyber sky . . .

BBD

93legendti
12-29-2007, 09:02 AM
. . . on that long, slippery slope to the Master Lock in the cyber sky . . .

BBD

Only if someone starts posting about bikes.

Surftel
12-29-2007, 09:12 AM
Viper,

Before you defend Bhutto so strongly you really should do some research. She was an amazing corrupt and ineffectual leader. Her return to Pakistan had nothing to do with helping the country, it was to pursue her own self interest.

She was convicted in Swiss courts of corruption and there is plenty of proof that she and her husband stole over $1 billion while they drove Pakistan into the ground....and while you mention Al Qaedia you should also be aware that it was Bhutto who financed and supported the Taliban so they could take over Afghanistan.

Bhutto was not Martin Luther King, or JFK, she was a criminal who should not be lauded.

Richard
12-29-2007, 09:32 AM
"I guess Yitzhak Rabin's murder must have been Pres. Clinton's fault."

Isn't everything that is wrong his fault????

93legendti
12-29-2007, 09:35 AM
"I guess Yitzhak Rabin's murder must have been Pres. Clinton's fault."

Isn't everything that is wrong his fault????

Not everything, just as not everything is Pres. Bush's fault. Right?

Richard
12-29-2007, 09:46 AM
93, that is my point. While I find Pres. Bush to be a boob, everything is not his fault.

As to whether Al Qaedia did this, that is, I believe, a red herring planted by the Musharaf govt. The only "claim" by them is some dubious third party Italian reference and, in fact, the purported "general" has disavowed that.

Al Qaedia is the easy target for Musharaf.

93legendti
12-29-2007, 09:56 AM
93, that is my point. While I find Pres. Bush to be a boob, everything is not his fault.

As to whether Al Qaedia did this, that is, I believe, a red herring planted by the Musharaf govt. The only "claim" by them is some dubious third party Italian reference and, in fact, the purported "general" has disavowed that.

Al Qaedia is the easy target for Musharaf.

Yes. While I voted twice for Pres. Clinton, I susbequently found out how he sold us out on Iran, Iraq and N. Korea. But, not everything was his fault.

My inital comment on blame was re this post:


I'm no tin foil hat-wearer and I hang well to the right...but I think (sadly) this entire situation was partly in the control of our administration...

I was responding to the notion that it was in OUR control re: a woman who knows she is a target; survives one attempt on her life and still remains in harms way and eventually is killed. Seems like a stretch of olympic proportions to me.

Richard
12-29-2007, 10:06 AM
93, I think that a stretch is true regarding most specific occurences. We are not "directly" responsible for this indiviual action. Unless we knew of a plot or actually plotted, then I agree we are not in "control." However, the policies of this (and past US administrations) have helped to produce the climate where this type of incident is almost fete accompli. What is not clear (and anyone who says differently with any certainty is either a fool or a liar) is whether the result of alternative policies would have been better (and better for whom). That said, it is my belief that our policies have been wrong headed for years and I "believe" (note my comment above) that many of the problems we face now are a result of those policies.

93legendti
12-29-2007, 10:11 AM
93, I think that a stretch is true regarding most specific occurences. We are not "directly" responsible for this indiviual action. Unless we knew of a plot or actually plotted, then I agree we are not in "control." However, the policies of this (and past US administrations) have helped to produce the climate where this type of incident is almost fete accompli. What is not clear (and anyone who says differently with any certainty is either a fool or a liar) is whether the result of alternative policies would have been better (and better for whom). That said, it is my belief that our policies have been wrong headed for years and I "believe" (note my comment above) that many of the problems we face now are a result of those policies.

Listen, I agree with most of what you say. Often hindsight offers a clarity and luxury that the present and urgency of a situation doesn't often afford.

BumbleBeeDave
12-29-2007, 10:19 AM
Viper,

Before you defend Bhutto so strongly you really should do some research. She was an amazing corrupt and ineffectual leader. Her return to Pakistan had nothing to do with helping the country, it was to pursue her own self interest.

She was convicted in Swiss courts of corruption and there is plenty of proof that she and her husband stole over $1 billion while they drove Pakistan into the ground....and while you mention Al Qaedia you should also be aware that it was Bhutto who financed and supported the Taliban so they could take over Afghanistan.

Bhutto was not Martin Luther King, or JFK, she was a criminal who should not be lauded.

It would be hard to find anyone over there to lead who could not also be painted as a "bad guy." And that same sad statement could be made about many parts of the world these days. It's just various power hungry people arguing among themselves over in Pakistan, just as it has been for many, many years.

BBD

1centaur
12-29-2007, 11:37 AM
this type of incident is almost fete accompli

Probably not sporting to pick on a foreign language malapropism, but "fete accompli" would be a fabulous name for a party planning store in a wealthy community.

Viper
12-29-2007, 01:55 PM
Viper,

Before you defend Bhutto so strongly you really should do some research. She was an amazing corrupt and ineffectual leader. Her return to Pakistan had nothing to do with helping the country, it was to pursue her own self interest.

She was convicted in Swiss courts of corruption and there is plenty of proof that she and her husband stole over $1 billion while they drove Pakistan into the ground....and while you mention Al Qaedia you should also be aware that it was Bhutto who financed and supported the Taliban so they could take over Afghanistan.

Bhutto was not Martin Luther King, or JFK, she was a criminal who should not be lauded.

I object your Honor.

You're taking information which is not credible. You've not (neither has 3Chordwonder) supplied any facts whatsoever. And...even if you do supply 'facts' they exist within the framework of a country, Pakistan, which only knows corruption! Do you really believe the corrupt leaders who ousted her from power? Do you really believe their corrupt 'facts'? Did you know Ms. Bhutto's Father was assassinated?

How...how does having any corruption in one's administration equate to the acceptance of her assassination? Should we be so naive to think that Pervez Musharraf isn't corrupt? Pakistan is the Wild West we once knew.

I find it sad that some out there take joy in pointing out the 'media-smear' of 'corruption', relying on weak 'facts', corrupt words from corrupt Pakistani officials, while a woman was assassinated. This was the evil work of terrorists.

Was Marthin Luther King perfect? Did the man never commit a sin? No. Yet he was assassinated as was Ms. Bhutto and the very last thing I would do is attack her while shrugging at the horrific, sickly and grotesque act known as assassination, murder. Was Abraham Lincoln perfect? Was JFK perfect? Is America perfect, did we earn our terrorist attacks too?

Somehow I believe Al-Qaeda could read this thread and they won't like my posts, but they'd find some comfort in the posts which attack Ms. Bhutto's character.

1). She was NOT killed for her Swiss bank accounts! Perhaps you and 3Chord would like to share the real reasons why she was assassinated. Could you please do so, thank you. Cause when this answer comes along, you'll see how one could mention MLK's name in this thread. Why, why was Ms. Bhutto assassinated?

In the meantime, Bono is out there, he wants to be my best friend (I'm just too busy with work etc) but I know he'd dedicate this to Ms. Bhutto, indeed:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k04KzgYRKrE&feature=related

1centaur
12-29-2007, 02:53 PM
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1698498,00.html?cnn=yes

I fail to see support of or indifference to assassination in the noting of Bhutto's failings on this thread. Jumping up and down and screaming at the implication that there is such indifference appears very odd, to me. I really suspect everyone here agrees on just about everything, specifically:

assassination is bad
Pakistan may not have any truly admirable leaders
terrorism is bad
the US does not have many good options with respect to Pakistan
Bhutto was no MLK (politicians are always unlikely to be philosophical leaders given their willingness and ability to elbow around for power).


Does anybody want to make a case for any of the above being untrue?

Darrell
12-29-2007, 03:48 PM
A lovely thought and maybe even true, but the chance of that is probably 0.1%.

She has actually been in charge before and Pakistan didn't experience any golden age of enlightenment during her tenure. On the other hand, as I understand it, the Swiss government has confirmed that there's millions of $ deposited by her husband while she and her family were in power.

agreed
agreed
no doubt
but she returned
That is the thought

oh, and let us ponder on our lotwho run our shows

Climb01742
12-29-2007, 04:57 PM
the US does not have many good options with respect to Pakistan

Does anybody want to make a case for any of the above being untrue?

based on my admittedly limited knowledge, i've always wondered a bit why siding with india more vs pakistan is not in our national interest? don't india's and our interests align more closely?

93legendti
12-29-2007, 05:03 PM
based on my admittedly limited knowledge, i've always wondered a bit why siding with india more vs pakistan is not in our national interest? don't india's and our interests align more closely?


http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040919/world.htm#2

Surftel
12-29-2007, 05:05 PM
I object your Honor.

You're taking information which is not credible. You've not (neither has 3Chordwonder) supplied any facts whatsoever. And...even if you do supply 'facts' they exist within the framework of a country, Pakistan, which only knows corruption! Do you really believe the corrupt leaders who ousted her from power? Do you really believe their corrupt 'facts'? Did you know Ms. Bhutto's Father was assassinated?

How...how does having any corruption in one's administration equate to the acceptance of her assassination? Should we be so naive to think that Pervez Musharraf isn't corrupt? Pakistan is the Wild West we once knew.

I find it sad that some out there take joy in pointing out the 'media-smear' of 'corruption', relying on weak 'facts', corrupt words from corrupt Pakistani officials, while a woman was assassinated. This was the evil work of terrorists.

Was Marthin Luther King perfect? Did the man never commit a sin? No. Yet he was assassinated as was Ms. Bhutto and the very last thing I would do is attack her while shrugging at the horrific, sickly and grotesque act known as assassination, murder. Was Abraham Lincoln perfect? Was JFK perfect? Is America perfect, did we earn our terrorist attacks too?

Somehow I believe Al-Qaeda could read this thread and they won't like my posts, but they'd find some comfort in the posts which attack Ms. Bhutto's character.

1). She was NOT killed for her Swiss bank accounts! Perhaps you and 3Chord would like to share the real reasons why she was assassinated. Could you please do so, thank you. Cause when this answer comes along, you'll see how one could mention MLK's name in this thread. Why, why was Ms. Bhutto assassinated?

In the meantime, Bono is out there, he wants to be my best friend (I'm just too busy with work etc) but I know he'd dedicate this to Ms. Bhutto, indeed:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k04KzgYRKrE&feature=related

It appears your comprehension abilities are limited, so I will try to make it simple

-I never condoned her assassination, and it is absurd for you to suggest this.
-I never said that Musharraf was better then Bhutto, I do not know how you would draw this conclusion. Musharraf has cost me personally large sums of money so it is laughable to think that I would support him.
-No Facts? You chose to ignore Bhutto's corruption conviction in Switzerland. She barely escaped a similar judgment in France due to the wording of the law, which has since been changed. The UK is currently investigating her, they lied about their ownership of a $10 million estate there for years to cover up their misdeeds.
-Bhutto's father was killed by a military firing squad, not technically an assination. Do you think that would have kept her out of the country back in the early 90's? Nope, as she was too focused on how to steal as much as possible. While you are talking about Bhutto Family assassinations you should not ignore the death of her brother, who most believe was ordered by Benizer herself. Here is what his daughter thinks of her Aunt.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-bhutto14nov14,0,2482408.story?coll=la-opinion-center

MLK, JFK etc.had minor transgressions compared to Bhutto's $1.5 billion

It appears you are caught of in the media generated image of Bhutto, instead of the facts.

Climb01742
12-29-2007, 05:41 PM
bhutto allowed a.q. khan to continue his nuclear hijinks under her gov't. going so far, according to published reports, to bring back with her, from a state trip to north korean, missile plans to allow a.q. and pakistan to build delivery systems for their nukes. at this same time, she gave a speech in the u.s. claiming that pakistan wasn't building nukes. the next day, the CIA showed her the drawings of pakistan's bomb, catching her in her lie.

which, sadly, goes to 1centaur's point of no good options, just lesser evil ones.

1centaur
12-29-2007, 06:24 PM
based on my admittedly limited knowledge, i've always wondered a bit why siding with india more vs pakistan is not in our national interest? don't india's and our interests align more closely?

Semi-passive memory, but 20-30 years ago India was pretty tight with the Soviet Union, had nukes, was in a great location to project power in that part of the world, and was (is) huge and thus a credible candidate for superpower status at some point. I think one of the basic building blocks of US foreign policy has been "we're big and powerful and we'd best be served if nobody else is." Thus it was somewhat natural to side with poor, picked-on Pakistan, the enemy of our potential enemy.

Flash forward to the present and India is not so tight with Russia while China is becoming our principal geopolitical rival (they will outstrip us someday if they can hold their politics together, I predict). Now having a big strong friend in China's part of the world seems smarter than sticking with poor, Taliban-infested Pakistan (who developed nukes when so many local countries did not....hmmm), but we have to deal with our old choices. We've gradually been working on relations with India, which seems to have a capitalist ethos underlying everything and so should be simpatico, we hope. Senators with long memories are uncomfortable with our India efforts, but ultimately support them as, again, no easy choices exist.

Imagine how much fun long-term diplomatic strategy would be if we had to deal with other planets, not just other countries. I'd like to see the quality of that CIA analysis.

michael white
12-29-2007, 06:31 PM
beam me up, Scotty.

Viper
12-29-2007, 08:29 PM
It appears your comprehension abilities are limited, so I will try to make it simple

-I never condoned her assassination, and it is absurd for you to suggest this.
-I never said that Musharraf was better then Bhutto, I do not know how you would draw this conclusion. Musharraf has cost me personally large sums of money so it is laughable to think that I would support him.
-No Facts? You chose to ignore Bhutto's corruption conviction in Switzerland. She barely escaped a similar judgment in France due to the wording of the law, which has since been changed. The UK is currently investigating her, they lied about their ownership of a $10 million estate there for years to cover up their misdeeds.
-Bhutto's father was killed by a military firing squad, not technically an assination. Do you think that would have kept her out of the country back in the early 90's? Nope, as she was too focused on how to steal as much as possible. While you are talking about Bhutto Family assassinations you should not ignore the death of her brother, who most believe was ordered by Benizer herself. Here is what his daughter thinks of her Aunt.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-bhutto14nov14,0,2482408.story?coll=la-opinion-center

MLK, JFK etc.had minor transgressions compared to Bhutto's $1.5 billion

It appears you are caught of in the media generated image of Bhutto, instead of the facts.

Hmm, comprehension abilities...attack the post, not the poster...raise the level of your arguement, not the level of your voice.

Good.

1). "MLK, JFK etc had minor transgressions compared to Bhutto's $1.5B" = 100% emotionally charged statement, it's merely and solely your opinion here.

2). I believe ~90% of the charges against her are pure political fodder. We play the same game of politics here in America.

3). Musharaf cost you money? Perhaps you are deep in the Pakastani forest, unable to view the issues from all sides?

4). While not jumping for joy of her assassination, some here have spent 99% of their focus on Bhutto's alleged 'crimes'.

5). When you offer, "Bhutto was not Martin Luther King, or JFK, she was a criminal who should not be lauded" it's really the last part of that sentence that makes me scratch my chin; "She's a criminal who should not be lauded."

Wow. She goes back to Pakistan, puts up with pure bs, fights for her rights and winds up with bullets and bombs...but her assassination should not be lauded! I could not disagree with you more.

6). You have, along with those who focus on Bhuto's supposed crimes...ya'll have yet to explain/define why she was killed (hint it has nothing to do with Swiss bank accounts).

Viper
12-29-2007, 08:38 PM
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1698498,00.html?cnn=yes

I fail to see support of or indifference to assassination in the noting of Bhutto's failings on this thread. Jumping up and down and screaming at the implication that there is such indifference appears very odd, to me. I really suspect everyone here agrees on just about everything, specifically:

assassination is bad
Pakistan may not have any truly admirable leaders
terrorism is bad
the US does not have many good options with respect to Pakistan
Bhutto was no MLK (politicians are always unlikely to be philosophical leaders given their willingness and ability to elbow around for power).


Does anybody want to make a case for any of the above being untrue?

^

We have someone who offered, "Bhutto was not Martin Luther King, or JFK, she was a criminal who should not be lauded" and that's the rub dude. She was murdered, assassinated and the above quote sounds very Al-Qaedish to me.

By labeling her murder as someone and something that, "Should not be lauded" he's offering a shoulder shrug to her assassination. atmo x infinity.


http://www.answers.com/topic/laud

girlie
12-29-2007, 08:43 PM
junior to YOU.......or jr.

Viper
12-29-2007, 08:46 PM
junior to YOU.......or jr.

Lauded.

Her life back from an illegal exile lasted two months. She returned home to open arms, open ears and flocks of followers...for that, she was assassinated.

"By ZEESHAN HAIDER
DUBAI, Oct 17 2007

Share Former prime minister Benazir Bhutto said she would return to Pakistan on Thursday to end eight years of self-exile and lead her party into national elections despite threats of al Qaeda inspired suicide attacks.

"Tomorrow at this time we will be on board the plane for Karachi, which is a day that I and all the people in Pakistan who love democracy and who believe in fundamental human rights have been waiting for," Bhutto said in Dubai on Wednesday."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/Story?id=3740086&page=1

They ride steel in Pakistan (not a photo-shop)...

girlie
12-29-2007, 09:22 PM
Lauded.


DUBAI, Oct 17 2007 :(


WITH LOVE.

Viper
12-29-2007, 09:57 PM
WITH LOVE.

Every time I see your sig I think mine should read,

"I am a boy, I used to have cartilage and be fast...now I just ride and sometimes I take glucosamine sulfate and hyaluronic acid."

:cool:

Darrell
12-29-2007, 10:04 PM
is how these chats turn into
1, What is in our best interests. So let's make the rules to suit us.
2, How we can stay top dog and rule the world and make the rules to suit us.

Just saying
it is sad when it gets dragged down to this

GoJavs
12-29-2007, 11:38 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7064052.stm

Surftel
12-30-2007, 12:43 AM
Hmm, comprehension abilities...attack the post, not the poster...raise the level of your arguement, not the level of your voice.

I stated my position on Bhutto clearly, you twisted it to try to fit your idea that I was for her assassination and also for Mushareff. It is easy to assume that you have comprehension issues if you are unable, or unwilling, to grasp these simple points


1). "MLK, JFK etc had minor transgressions compared to Bhutto's $1.5B" = 100% emotionally charged statement, it's merely and solely your opinion here.

You will have a hard time finding many people that do not support my position on this. $1.5 billion is much worse then any minor personality foibles.


2). I believe ~90% of the charges against her are pure political fodder. We play the same game of politics here in America.

You believe they are political fodder, but you are wrong. How many US leaders have been convicted in Switzerland? This is well beyond political maneuvering. A simple Google search of Bhutto+Corruption will give you all the info you need....if you are too lazy I can provide you multiple links


3). Musharaf cost you money? Perhaps you are deep in the Pakastani forest, unable to view the issues from all sides?

It is clear by your posts that you have little experience in this part of the world, I do. I was part of a group that was building an ISP in Pakistan. Long story, but the day Musharaf came to power he cut all communication into the country. We lost all of our equipment, and much of our investment.


4). While not jumping for joy of her assassination, some here have spent 99% of their focus on Bhutto's alleged 'crimes'.

Her crimes are not alleged, she was tried and convicted in Western courts. Her crimes were so large that they defined her in the eyes of most who have experience in this area of the world....and resulted in little support for return.


5). When you offer, "Bhutto was not Martin Luther King, or JFK, she was a criminal who should not be lauded" it's really the last part of that sentence that makes me scratch my chin; "She's a criminal who should not be lauded."

She is a criminal, what part of that confuses you? Stealing millions is not an admiral thing to me.



Wow. She goes back to Pakistan, puts up with pure bs, fights for her rights and winds up with bullets and bombs...but her assassination should not be lauded! I could not disagree with you more.

What? "her assassination should not be lauded!" what does this mean? I have never said her death was a positive act. You many need a dictionary.


6). You have, along with those who focus on Bhuto's supposed crimes...ya'll have yet to explain/define why she was killed (hint it has nothing to do with Swiss bank accounts).

You, I, nor anyone on this board will likely have any idea of the true how or why Bhutto was killed. As I have said multiple times, I am not condoning her assassination, I am pointing out the very real fact that Bhutto and her crowd are criminals of the highest order and should not be held up as anything positive, they are not. As to the why or how she was killed, I am sure that will be debated for years.

Viper
12-30-2007, 01:09 AM
1). She stole millions huh? And it's not admirable, m'kay...but what is much less admirable is taking bullets and shooting a woman in the skull.

2). She maybe a criminal, but her assassination and her memory should be lauded aka praised aka honored aka respected aka etc.

3). She had billions you say? M'kay...but she still returned home with the best of intentions. She was murdered, killed in cold blood.

4). What is and was MOST criminal was her assassination, her murder, not some take of Switzerland.

5). I am quoting you, "Bhutto was not Martin Luther King, or JFK, she was a criminal who should not be lauded." Your words...and since we know what 'lauded' means, again, we can't disagree more. Again, fyi, it's merely your opinion that Ms. Bhutto was more criminal than a JFK when you offered, "MLK, JFK etc.had minor transgressions compared to Bhutto's $1.5 billion." I mean, you do realize how one could laugh at that, right?

President Reagan didn't criminally earn his bullets. Had he died that day in 1981, I'd show the man respect. I watched it live on CNN as a 10 year old, wrote him a letter the next day and received a thank you from his office a few weeks later (I saved the letter). I lauded. Did you?

President Kennedy didn't earn his bullets; yellow is the color of cowards who assassinate. Had I been alive when JFK was in Dallas, I would have lauded aka respected aka praised aka honored him too, regardless of party or political affiliation. Would you?

Robert Kennedy was assassinated as well, if you viewed him as 'criminal' would it prevent you from lauding?

Ms. Bhutto may have been involved in crimanal, financial deals, but she was not a coward.

We disagree on all points here, all points. I never met the woman, Ms. Bhutto and yet I'll show her respect (laudation); her goals were indeed very Martin Luther King Jr.-esque and I won't tip-toe with the word, "Lauded", I'll call it straight and say her life and death should indeed be respected. Yeah, maybe even lauded. Ironically, those who do not care for her or her career, even they must acknowledge that she is now a martyr:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnMzSmQKj2Q

Also, lol, former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who spent 7 years in exile, returned to Pakistan before Ms. Bhutto's arrival on October 18th and he was allowed in the country for 4 hours, then deported on allegations of crimes, corruption. So is everyone a criminal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuK9Ig7DMx0

Viper
12-30-2007, 01:31 AM
It appears your comprehension abilities are limited, so I will try to make it simple

-Bhutto's father was killed by a military firing squad, not technically an assination. Do you think that would have kept her out of the country back in the early 90's?

It appears you are caught of in the media generated image of Bhutto, instead of the facts.

Surftel, incorrect. Her Dad was not killed via firing squad. He was hanged during a military coup.

His daughter, Ms. Benazir Bhutto showed courage to seek politcal power after watching her father hang. While her career in politics is of debate, her return to Pakistan on October 18, 2007 was met wet both an assassination attempt and thousands of followers. Ms. Bhutto was courageous to remain in Pakistan, fighting for reform, fighting for democracy...and she was killed December 27, 2007 by cowards.

Her poltical life may have contained crimes, but her life and death should be lauded. atmo.

" Former prime minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, was hanged in 1979 after being deposed by a military coup."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bhutto-assassinated/2007/12/28/1198345167963.html

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:2SpwyfFYx68J:encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559914/Bhutto_Zulfikar_Ali.html+Zulfikar+Ali+Bhutto+hange d+military+coup&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

3chordwonder
12-30-2007, 02:37 AM
Edited: Deleted my post rather than extending the conversation. No point is served by further butting heads over current affairs here on a bike forum.

3chordwonder
12-30-2007, 03:44 AM
Ditto.

sjbraun
12-30-2007, 09:11 AM
This isn't debate, its just arguing.

jerk
12-30-2007, 11:18 AM
based on my admittedly limited knowledge, i've always wondered a bit why siding with india more vs pakistan is not in our national interest? don't india's and our interests align more closely?


india has always been a strong ally of the soviet union and the non-alligned movement. india's national interests have more often than not been at odds with american interests and soviet economic support has help enforce that further through most of the post war period.

pakistan was a seato signatory and seen as a butress against a mythical soviet desire for a warm water port.

pakistan has also always been less protectionist in its economic practices. its tough for amercian and european businesses to make a buck in india. china's relationship and rivalry with india also pushed india into the soviet camp re: foreign policy.

jerk

Viper
12-30-2007, 12:46 PM
This isn't debate, its just arguing.

"When you blame others you give up your power to change."

~Douglas Adams

In other words, add to a thread via your own opinion and input, speak of Ms. Bhutto etc. Douglas Adams was a very bright man. Sad to see him go.

Ms. Bhutto's 19 year old son was just chosen to lead her party and her husband will co-chair. There's things to discuss:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22435920/

stevep
12-30-2007, 01:06 PM
india has always been a strong ally of the soviet union and the non-alligned movement. india's national interests have more often than not been at odds with american interests and soviet economic support has help enforce that further through most of the post war period.

pakistan was a seato signatory and seen as a butress against a mythical soviet desire for a warm water port.

pakistan has also always been less protectionist in its economic practices. its tough for amercian and european businesses to make a buck in india. china's relationship and rivalry with india also pushed india into the soviet camp re: foreign policy.

jerk

clarification:
this was outsourced to a writing seminar at the university of madras in india.
the jerk just signs them and forwards the notes.


"why should i write this shiite.." asks obtuse..." "there are enough idiots here to carry it without me.. besides i get this stuff written for $.02 a word..."

( called in by satellite phone from the space shuttle )

norman neville
12-30-2007, 09:18 PM
the bhutto so loved by the folks in the west was a western media creation. as has been stated right here in this forum and around the world since her death, the reality was very different.

she was by no means the biggest scumbag to rule a nation on this plantet in the last 5000 years, but she was a scumbag. she was certainly no hero. she returned to pakistan on the order of the us government in order to further us interests. there is no justification for respecting the woman or the disgusting political legacy she leaves behind.

i said it before: her family business was the plunder of pakistan. business was good.

i can understand that many americans are quite sheltered and would be shocked and horrified by an assassination, especially an assassination of one of our puppets who had spent her life crafting her image in order to disguise the vile conduct of her family and about whom they had been told so many happy and satisfying lies for so many years. shocking, i say.

however, violence in general and political violence in particular is a well-accepted tool of influence around the world, and it is practised daily everywhere.

the growth of her personal wealth while she ruled pakistan was a type of political violence toward the people of pakistan, ensuring that they would continue to enjoy their wealth of underdeveloped poverty.

frankly, i think the plunder of millions was worse than the murder of one. the deaths of the bystanders was the sadder tragedy last week.

pakistan, the rest of southern asia and the middle east deserve better leaders than busharraf or bhutto and better politics, but they will never get them.

Viper
12-30-2007, 09:46 PM
the bhutto so loved by the folks in the west was a western media creation. as has been stated right here in this forum and around the world since her death, the reality was very different.

she was by no means the biggest scumbag to rule a nation on this plantet in the last 5000 years, but she was a scumbag. she was certainly no hero. she returned to pakistan on the order of the us government in order to further us interests. there is no justification for respecting the woman or the disgusting political legacy she leaves behind.

i said it before: her family business was the plunder of pakistan. business was good.

i can understand that many americans are quite sheltered and would be shocked and horrified by an assassination, especially an assassination of one of our puppets who had spent her life crafting her image in order to disguise the vile conduct of her family and about whom they had been told so many happy and satisfying lies for so many years. shocking, i say.

however, violence in general and political violence in particular is a well-accepted tool of influence around the world, and it is practised daily everywhere.

the growth of her personal wealth while she ruled pakistan was a type of political violence toward the people of pakistan, ensuring that they would continue to enjoy their wealth of underdeveloped poverty.

frankly, i think the plunder of millions was worse than the murder of one. the deaths of the bystanders was the sadder tragedy last week.

pakistan, the rest of southern asia and the middle east deserve better leaders than busharraf or bhutto and better politics, but they will never get them.

Understood.

But when you offer, "Frankly, i think the plunder of millions was worse than the murder of one. the deaths of the bystanders was the sadder tragedy last week. pakistan, the rest of southern asia and the middle east deserve better leaders than busharraf or bhutto and better politics, but they will never get them".......you lose me.

Why? Any justification or relativism of her assassination is to me, foul, below the belt and lower than belt line. "The plunder of millions was worse than the murder of one" really? Wow, just wow. It's only it outdone by your offering, "The deaths of the bystanders was the sadder tragedy last week." Really?

For those who don't get why my dog's teeth are deep in this debate, I think you're beginning to understand why. :rolleyes:

When you offer , "Pakistan...deserves better leaders...but they will never get them" I counter that assassination is never, ever, ever the answer; Pakistan just took many steps backwards did it not?

I agree with you that Ms. Bhutto went home via order of American strings. We sent her into a meat grinder. She spoke of unity, hope, democracy and received bullets to her skull. She was not a coward. She was the opposite of a coward. Those who killed her are yellow and spineless. Now? Now she is a Martyr who will be lauded for generations to come...by millions.

Surftel
12-30-2007, 10:28 PM
Now? Now she is a Martyr who will be lauded for generations to come...by millions.

Only by fools, who choose to ignore that she was a criminal.

Viper
12-30-2007, 10:51 PM
Only by fools, who choose to ignore that she was a criminal.

Proudly, I am a fool.

Hint: I imagine that some spoke as you do regarding MLK himself, after he was assassinated. I imagine some spoke as you do regarding JFK after he was assassinated. And so, so many hoped President Reagan wouldn't pull through too.

I defend Ms. Bhutto and I'm not on EPO. She might have been a criminal, but murder, assassination is the topic, the issue and the REAL crime here! According to your hyperbole and snarky semantics, you sound somewhat gleeful about her murder. Sad.

Ghandi, MLK, JFK, Archbishop Tutu? Ask them who the real fool is...

Surftel
12-30-2007, 11:28 PM
put down the glass of Bourbon, you are not making sense.

Surftel
12-30-2007, 11:33 PM
Proudly, I am a fool.

Hint: I imagine that some spoke as you do regarding MLK himself, after he was assassinated. I imagine some spoke as you do regarding JFK after he was assassinated.

You are making no sense here


And so, so many hoped President Reagan wouldn't pull through too.

Reagan was a personal hero of mine. The idea that I would hope he would not pull thru is as absurd as your other posts.

She might have been a criminal,

Good to see you are coming to your senses and realizing she was a crook.

you sound somewhat gleeful about her murder. Sad.
I have been very clear that I do not support here murder, but you choose to ignore this.


Ghandi, MLK, JFK, Archbishop Tutu? Ask them who the real fool is...

Are you comparing Ghandi and Tutu with Bhutto? A foolish comparison at best.

Viper
12-31-2007, 12:16 AM
You are making no sense here



Reagan was a personal hero of mine. The idea that I would hope he would not pull thru is as absurd as your other posts.



Good to see you are coming to your senses and realizing she was a crook.


I have been very clear that I do not support here murder, but you choose to ignore this.



Are you comparing Ghandi and Tutu with Bhutto? A foolish comparison at best.

Reagan was shot in 1981 and you liked him, so the assassination attempt was uncool, yet you're no fan of Ms. Bhutto so you remain snarky about her murder. = :rolleyes:

Ghandi was assassinated. Archbishop Desmomd Tutu faced assassination attempts, fought the status quo and reformed his homeland. Ms. Bhutto was a politcal leader who was assassinated for her words. Foolish comparison? It's up to you to prove your thesis here. I'm certain the Archbishop will have comments very soon regarding Ms. Benazir Bhutto, but go ahead, attempt to make your point here. While you claim to be clear you don't support murder, you have a smarmy attitude towards Ms. Bhutto's assassination.

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent...When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it...always."
~Mahatma Ghandi

DukeHorn
12-31-2007, 03:02 AM
Bhutto had her faults (especially in her administration choices a decade ago), but WE (the US) asked her to return to Pakistan and she did so knowing that WE (the US) would not be providing security for her.

If she had embezzled billions of dollars, I don't quite see why she would put herself in such harm. (please examine your logic when you try to make 2+2=5)

Whatever her motives were (whether to rehabilitate her image or whatnot), I can still admire her as a woman educated in the West going back to a radicalized Muslim nation in an attempt to change it and experience sorrow for her death (especially when it was the outcome of a US foreign policy request).

shaq-d
01-01-2008, 12:37 AM
If she had embezzled billions of dollars, I don't quite see why she would put herself in such harm.

because she could embezzle billions more once she came back into power. she did nothing for the country when she was in power. please do some research regarding her tenure when she was in power. history repeats.

musharaff is the best prez pakistan has seen in decades. he vacillates between his ego and what his country needs, but he's still the best overall.

hm. and i went spinning today for the first time in months...

sd

barry1021
01-01-2008, 10:42 AM
she died from natural causes. THat's a relief. :no:

You can't beat a good third world government when it comes to bending the truth. I should know, born and raised in Massachusetts...

b21