serotta customer service or dis-service? [Archive]

Climb01742

08-03-2004, 09:09 AM

this isn't a rant. it's a question. yesterday douglas raised a point that got me thinking. serotta wants customers to go thru LBS. other builders are far more open to direct dialogues with customers. i'm not even talking about direct purchasing, but simply direct dialogue with customers.

serotta seems to keep customers at an arm's length. for example, over the last few months, i've written different people at serotta three e-mails. how many got answered? zero.

compare that to writing matt bracken at IF. or steve hampsten at hampsten. or e-richie. or david kirk. or even dario pegoretti. they all respond. most the same day. many within hours, if not minutes.

again, i'm not talking about a purchase model: thru LBS or direct. i'm talking about fostering direct dialogue with customers.

as you can probably tell, having a direct dialogue matters to me. i'm curious. does it matter to you? in an ever more competitive market, with frames costing more, is it still wise of serotta to get customers at arm's length? or would fostering a closer, more personal channel of communication be wiser? is answering an e-mail asking too much?

William

08-03-2004, 09:40 AM

Hey Climb01742,
Customer service is REAL important to me.

I am currently working on a problem directly with Serotta. The problem (I believe) originated with the Serotta LBS. The question for me is going to be, do they back, or assume responsibility for possible mistakes made by the LBS? I would hope so since by extension, they reprsent (put Serotta's face) Serotta to the public. So far discussion has moved forward.

I'll let you know how it goes.

William

(PS: This has nothing to do with Serotta's fine product) :)

schneiderrd

08-03-2004, 09:41 AM

Over the years I have contacted Serotta several times and have always gotten a reply. On two occasions they have sent replacement seat binder bolts free of charge.

OldDog

08-03-2004, 09:47 AM

I like checking in here all too often, I should be working or riding. I even offer my two cents once in a while. Thanks very much to Serotta and Co. for this opportunity.

However I have never purchased a new Serotta. Had a used Atlanta once. I have purchased new, comparable bikes, to what Serotta has to offer, from Spectrum and Sachs. I was able to go to their shops/homes. Have a coffee and talk bikes. Go for a ride. And receive a personal fit. And make friends.
I once called Waterford for info for a repaint on my '72 touring Paramount. Mr. Schwinn himself answered the phone, spent time with me, and then emailed a considerable amount of info to me. For the money being spent, I want that contact.

Here in NE PA, we have no Serotta dealers. We do have a shop that sent a employee to the fit school. He is a mtn biker, does not road bike. If this shop had a Serotta dealership, I would not buy one there. Even though he did attend the school, I don't trust his experience. I would love to purchase a CSI, however I would need to travel considerable distance to do this. My next bike will be a J. P. Weigle. I'll travel to see a builder. No offense to those of you here that do excel as a Serotta dealer. I know you do what you do very well. Your just not in my neck of the woods.

What Serotta does works for them, or they would be doing business via another method. This forum takes care of many questions, if not, their dealer base can, or at least get access to the factory for the answer. I can understand their limiting direct consumer contact, as i would think they could be overwelmed with questions. I once tried to contact GM for a problem with my Silverado. No response. I also tried to contact a furniture manufacturer recently to complain about extremly poor customer service from their dealer. Again, no response. At least Serotta does get involved with a problem that may arise, but to answer questions, I believe they leave that to the dealers.
I do not like it, nor do you. But that is appearantly how they choose to do business.

jeffg

08-03-2004, 09:55 AM

I have dealt with Serotta directly in resolving an issue with my frame. All I can say is that Lori H. went above and beyond the call and that my experience with Serotta was the single best customer service experience I have ever had. Add to that that I think they make the best Ti frame going and I am a customer for life.

It may seem odd given the extent to which we all seem to use e-mail nowadays, but e-mail is simply not Serotta's forte. Get someone on the phone. You really want to discuss the issue, not just go back and forth on e-mail -- trust me. :banana:

Smiley

08-03-2004, 09:59 AM

Climb , I think your under estimating the value that Serotta places with their dealers. I for one would hate to have my clients go to the factory everytime an issue arises on a bike design cause you'll never ever have two people singing from the same sheet. Do I encourage my clents that need that TLC to talk to Serotta , YES I do but after all the small details are worked out so as not to bog down Kelly with the small stuff but rather have his time better utilized to see a bigger picture. I think Serotta values their system and how they chose to go to market and others that you compare them with made a business delivery model based on direct communication with the client at the expense of having their dealer be no more than a BIRD DOG with no real input in the design process. I think Serotta teaches and trains their dealers to be the first line of contact with the client and do more than take a name , number and deposit for an order. I like the Serotta system and if you asked my clients as well as Ron Keifels or Paul Levines or Chris Jacobsen or Clay Mankin clients you'll get no complaints from them either.
Ben has spent a lifetime fostering these dealer relationships and I am sure that the dealers like this system just fine . Yes dbrk and you may want to speak direct with THE MAN every so often and nothing wrong with that but my guess is if Ben could talk to 3000 plus clients he may not be able to run a business which entitles doing more than taking about bike fit, which he has trained an army of dealers to do just that . I understand that fit is more than a size cycle its also about how the bike feels and rides. Call me any time to talk bikes when ever you need to talk .

va rider

08-03-2004, 10:06 AM

Interesting take. I guess you e-mailed the general info account?

My take is absolutely opposite. I sent e-mails and they were all answered, very promptly. I spoke on the phone with Kelly Bedford for about 30 minutes about my frame. I had a number of e-mails with an employee about a auction frame I was considering buying. He was great and eventually told me the frame was not quite what I was looking for. When it came to painting my frame, I made a last minute change and called the same employee, who had the change made (to the color of a decal).

And, I have received two e-mails from Ben himself, the first thanking me for my business and the second, seeing how I liked the frame.

I would just call them and ask to speak to somebody that could help. From my experience, Serotta has absolutely outstanding customer service.

Climb01742

08-03-2004, 11:09 AM

there are two elements to customer service, i think. communication and action/resolution. i've had personal experience with serotta's action/resolution side of the service equation, and it is remarkable. above and beyond. i have absolutely no quibble there.

but the communication side seems more problematic. let me give you an example. i've bought three serottas through one LBS; in fact through one fitter there. that fitter has left the shop. i have a relationship with no other fitter there that even comes close to the one i had. so what do i do now if i have a question about my current frames or a future frame? there are only three people with a detailed knowledge of those frames: kelly, me and my old fitter. do i bring in a new person to the equation? this is the weakness, i think, in the go-thru-a-LBS system.

as i said at the beginning, this isn't a rant. serotta has the frame building part down as well as anyone. they have the we-stand-behind-it part down better than almost anyone. it just seems like a weakness to let the customer communication part lag behind. but i may be an anomaly in this.

dbrk

08-03-2004, 11:28 AM

I have no particular opinion of Serotta's powers of communication but Climb's story bears out a singular feature of the bike industry---and if I may be so bold and so glib---as living in its own alternative universe. I have, over the past many, many years, contacted dozens of times various companies, bike shops, wholesale suppliers, all without making a nuisance of myself, for legitimate reasons, and without skipping the "chain of command" only to have my calls unanswered, seemingly ignored, or left to wallow in the vast, tawdy underbelly of empty ether of the Net. Go figure. Order a part, get a reply five, seven days later that it is unavailable, if you get a reply at all. This leaves some people to happily pay the significant mark ups some shops require to stay in business through their more attentive customer service. The only saving grace of this industry is that it sells bicycles which are worth such indignities and acts of flagrant neglect. When you find someone who returns calls or replies promptly, stick with them, they are a jewel in the crown. I could tell story after story.

As for Serotta's insistence on the LBS, I would suppose that their business is likely too large (in volume) and too small (in numbers) to handle too much direct input from customers. Still, this is a reason I shy away: I've not much need for the LBS dealer and not much hope of getting outside the chain of command.

dbrk

Climb01742

08-03-2004, 11:41 AM

OldDog

08-03-2004, 11:52 AM

Ozz

08-03-2004, 12:08 PM

would it be difficult for serotta to designate one person within the company as the customer liason--someone to field calls or e-mails, and then route them to the right person, and then follow-up on the progress of the question or issue?

Maybe they do, and that one person is on vacation this week?

Are you suggesting that they hire someone? It seems to me that they run a pretty lean operation....

I never had any problems with getting return emails or phone calls both before I ordered my CSi and after while working out some paint finish details.

FWIW - the third component of customer service that you mention is customer expectations...Serotta is not a one person shop, so comparing them to Hampsten, Kirk, Sachs, etc is not really fair.

I think that their business model is designed to keep customers at "arm's length" so they can focus on designing and building bikes. However, it seems to me that they are pretty quick to get involved when they need to. At least they did on my CSi.

This allows them to have hundreds of people out selling and servicing their bikes, to keep the production volume at it's optimum. This is why Serotta can build 3000 bikes per year (no idea if this is accurate) whereas the other builders you mention probably turn out less than 100 per year.

I agree with you that it would be nice to work directly with them, but that would also undercut the relationship they have with the bike shops, which is what allows them to sell so many bikes.

Climb01742

08-03-2004, 12:18 PM

ozz--i'm not saying they should hire someone, hence the use of the word "designate", as in perhaps expanding someone's responsibilities. and i'm not saying they should change their way of selling and designing frames. i'm simply suggesting that the communication with customers could be better. and to your point about someone being on vacation...the three unanswered e-mails span two months. that's a nice vacation! ;)

vaxn8r

08-03-2004, 12:46 PM

compare that to writing matt bracken at IF. or steve hampsten at hampsten. or e-richie. or david kirk. or even dario pegoretti. they all respond. most the same day. many within hours, if not minutes.

Add Craig Calfee to that list. He responded to my e-mail personally within 24hrs on 2 occasions.

But, you are comparing apples and oranges. The examples you gave probably sell between 1% and 10% of the volume Ben Serotta sells. I think Serotta is a bit in no man's land. Certainly not Trek but they are not a small operation either. I think others are correct in that they have fostered dealer relationships to handle the routine stuff.

M_A_Martin

08-03-2004, 12:49 PM

Hmmm, I thought they had regional reps in house who dealt with the emails. Or has that gone by the wayside? I think that's who answers my emails that I send to info@serotta...(whatever their general information email is) I don't know who they are*, but someone gets on a keyboard. No matter how trivial my questions have been they have always been answered within a day. Sometimes within moments. Maybe I'm just lucky that way? Or maybe it is because I don't direct my question to any one person, but to their general info email...

(*actually, now that I"ve been to a few open houses, I do know who they are, but I don't pick one or another to answer my email...just whoever is about) If I know the person who is involved with my question (such as Steve bringing demo bikes to Michigan) I'll email them with my questions directly. Otherwise I use the "info" email...

va rider

08-03-2004, 12:52 PM

Climb -

I really believe that your problem is an anomaly. Did you e-mail the info account or a person in particular. Are you sure you have the correct e-mail address.

Like I posted, I dealt with several employees and the owner. They were prompt, Kelly returned a phone call in under an hour, pulled up specs, and tweaked the frame to my requests. I recently e-mailed the info@serotta.com account with a question on the frame specs on an early 90s frame. I got a response with the specs two days later.

I would definately try a phone call. This really sounds like an aberration.

Bruce K

08-03-2004, 01:01 PM

I have always had great luck reaching someone at Serotta when it was needed.

I recently spoke for quite a while with Steve about a freind of mine who has very special needs for a custom frame he would like to purchase later this season or over the winter.

Kelly was very accessible during the design process of my Ottrott.

I am hoping that your situation is just an anomaly Climb. It sure isn't "normal" from most of our experiences.

BK

e-RICHIE

08-03-2004, 01:09 PM

interesting thread - as are all that Climb90210 starts!
i'll say this and then return to lurk mode:
the essence of this issue is that you are the client
of the lbs and the lbs is the client of serotta. i would
assume the margin that's alotted on these frames
puts the onus on the shop to be the intermediery (sp?);
the shop sells the frame, the manufacturer makes it.
e-RICHIE

ps

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

arrange disorder

Climb01742

08-03-2004, 01:10 PM

i guess i'm the squeaky wheel. one of my e-mails just got answered. very well and very helpfully. i sent my e-mails directly to specific people. maybe info is a better strategy. thanks, alyson, for your help.

let me add one thing. in my business, client service is hugely important. and i run a small business. so i sweat things like customer service a lot. maybe i'm more senstive to it than most folks. or over senstive to it. but in this economy, service is so important. i try to deliver it to my clients every day. so maybe this issue means more to me than it should. as i said, i may be the anomaly.

Climb01742

08-03-2004, 01:15 PM

richie--your point raises a key question: what is the customer to do when the LBS personnel change, and their "guy" isn't there anymore? in essence, it threatens the quality of the service the customer experiences "from" serotta. i guess i don't understand why ben would let his lifeblood -- customers, especially repeat customers -- ebb and flow based on the ebb and flow of LBS employment.

malcolm

08-03-2004, 02:41 PM

First off I love serotta, but my issue is a loccal one. Where I live there is one dealer that at last visit had one dusty ti bike with employes that had little knowledge of serotta and seemed more interested in selling me a lemond or trek. I assume the guy I talked to was not the fitter but on several visits I've seen and talked with no one I would trust setting me up with a multiple thousand dollar bike. I was planning on traveling across the country to city bikes in San Francisco to purchase a legend, because on a visit there they were incerdible. My wife was in a conference and I went to city bikes (cycles maybe) just to look and they offered to let me ride serottas, sevens and calfees without knowing me from adam. I've subsequently made the mistake of speaking with Tom Kellog at spectrum and will now be going to Penn this winter to be fitted for a spectrum, I can't imagine more attentive or personal service. Still love serotta but spectrum blew me away.

SPOKE

08-03-2004, 03:34 PM

Climb,
each custom frame built by serotta has a "build sheet" that gives all the important geometry, paint, decals, head tube extension, and other details discussed by you and your fitter. you shold have been provided a copy of this info for approval before the first tube was even cut. simply provide serotta with the frame serial number and a copy of this sheet can be sent to you. (the exception to this may be frames older than about 1998/99, before the new computerized system was in place). i have copies of all my build sheets. i don't think they have any major reason not to provide this info to you. even your LBS should have a copy.

Smiley

08-03-2004, 03:39 PM

Hey Climb what do you do when your hair cutter moves...oh that was a bad example , how about when your dentist moves, you find another one and you have your records moved. Well the records are your drafts or your BB serial numbers that have the specifics of your draft back at corporate HQ. No biggie my man .

Climb01742

08-03-2004, 03:48 PM

spoke and smiley--i have build sheets of all my serottas. so i'm covered there. just gotta find another middleman. come october, smiley, your phone will ring.

Smiley

08-03-2004, 04:09 PM

I can hear you now :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

va rider

08-03-2004, 04:22 PM

Climb -

Smiley is the man to call. He took one look at my frame, cited with precision all the relevant geometry, including the 4 degree tt slope, looked at my handlebars, told me they were not quite right, what to adjust, how to adjust, etc....

Come down, have Smiley fit you, and we can head to the hills for some fun.....

p.s. Smiley, I need to hook up with you to help align my cleats. I just cannot nail it, maybe take alook at my bars and seat position as well.

Kevin

08-03-2004, 08:37 PM

Climb,

I have sent half a dozen emails to Serotta over the last year and a half and every one was answered. Are you sure you were sending your e-mails to active accounts?

Kevin

jerk

08-03-2004, 09:43 PM

hey climb-
the jerk answers all your emails. in fact the jerk will answer everyone's emails. now whether the jerk has the answers you want to hear is another story. after all, seems to your jerk pal that the frames he recommended to you sucked....guess the signature is going to change to the jerk is sometimes more wrong than right.

jerk

ericmurphy

08-03-2004, 09:52 PM

Question - once a potential customer is fitted by his lbs, deposit paid, order placed with Serotta, would he/she receive a drawing or spec sheet of the frame to be made for, at the very least, approval, and better yet for their own personal records???

Yes, you will receive a copy of the draft, if you so desire. After I did my fitting and paid the deposit, I got an Excel spreadsheet of my frame draft from Kelly, which I could then approve or amend as appropriate. At some point, I'll probably frame the thing. :-)

As for customer communication: I e-mailed Kelly directly, after hours on a Friday, asking what would be a good time to call to discuss my frame. The following Monday, Kelly called me. He got my phone number off the signature in my e-mail (I didn't explicitly include it because I assumed I'd have to call him), got my work number off my home answering machine, and called me at work.

Seems like pretty good communication skills to me.

Andreu

08-04-2004, 02:52 AM

A problem with long lag times between process (e.g.fit, build or whatever) and the quality control measure...in this case customer satisfaction is that in many cases it is too late.

By the time the customer gets the bike and the bike is wrong (in whatever way) it is too late.....we have a peeved customer or worse no more customer - or the very worst even.. less customers. An extra step e.g. bike shop is going to make the lag time even longer and potentially, have even less time to get things right.

Serotta have a "supply chain" which is longer in physical length compared to other custom builders therefore there is little time or margin for error to "nip things in the bud" and get things back to "A" standard quality (or whatever measure they use for quality).

This is the way Serotta choose to do things and it works for the volume of bikes they put it out and the number of "complaints" they get because, I guess, they work on a different economy of scale to other builders. This system would not work for other workshops.

A