Fender Suggestions for my Bianchi... little help?

[handsomerob]

tis the season for the wet stuff. My last two rides have been on wet roads and I am thinking about getting some fenders for my Bianchi.

I am definitely leaning toward some hammered Honjos, but I would like some help from those of you with real world experience. Although the bike is pictured in its blinged Vento pose, I have a second wheelset that I will be running 28c Conti Ultra Gatorskins for road rides and 35c cross tires. It is not absolutely necessary for the cross tires to clear the fenders, but it would be a plus. The cross races I did this year didn't have any mud ( :confused: ) so keeping them on wouldn't have been an issue and I would prefer to "set it and forget it" if possible.

I would like suggestions of what fenders and sizes would be the best suited, potential issues to know before a purchase, and the best and/or cheapest place to get them. I have seen a few sites online that offer everything separately but I haven't found a "fender package" that includes all the necessary bits.

Also, if anyone has some that would work that they would be interested in selling, please PM me... (I might also be interested in a stainless rack ;) )

[Fixed]

tele
imho
cheers

[itspeedmoore]

I have almost the exact same bike and have the smooth honjos on it. I think they are like 43mm wide? Very nice and a pretty easy attachment. Had to use some zip ties but it looks good and is very functional. I added a leather extension to the bottoms of the fenders to provide additional coverage, plus they look cool.

[dauwhe]

43mm Honjos sound like a good bet. Try Velo-Orange to get a package; but I've also ordered from Jitensha with good results--just have to spend a bit more time figuring out which bits I need.

Dave

[palincss]

From Jitensha's web site:

HI 27-700CN
width: 43mm
depth 20mm
finish: hammered
fit. 700 x 28c-35c
price: $53/pr.

COMPLETE SETS:

each kit includes:
1 pair of fenders ( front & rear)
2 u-stays, one per fender
1 crown DARUMA
1 sliding bracket
4 DARUMA screws
4 R-clips

Fender models available as kits with prices:
NH35-700N: $70
NH27-700CN: $75
NH29-700N: $70
H1-27-700CN: $75

http://jitensha.com/eng/fndrs_e.html

and from Velo Orange's web site:

Honjo Fenders, Extra Long, 35mm, 43mm, & 45mm

These are extra long and custom made for Velo Orange. They are as long as the traditional French models that have not been available in decades. There is room to mount a headlight on the front, and the back will really protect your feet from spray.

The hammered finish fenders are reproductions of the style of French fenders that was particularly popular on high-end bikes in the '40s and '50s. Walking around Paris, you will still see old bikes with hammered fenders. The smooth type was popular in the '60s and '70s. And the fluted type is, in our opinion, the most elegant.

Our Honjo fenders come with all required hardware; this is important to note since Honjo hardware is sometimes sold separately. They are pre-drilled for stays and at the fork crown, but not at the brake and chainstay bridges.

These are 700c size, but they also fit 27" wheels. The 35mm fenders are for tires up to 26mm wide. 43mm fenders fit tires up to 32mm and some 35mm. And 45mm fenders fit tires to 35mm and some 38mm. Length: front fender, ~90cm, rear ~120cm.

$79.00, complete kit.

http://velo-orange.com/hohafe43.html

[dwightskin]

The better offerings from SKS and Planet bike are also great fenders.

Planet Bike has the Cascadia for $40is
http://ecom1.planetbike.com/7026_5.html
This already comes with flaps (good for keeping tire splash from the front tire off your drivetrain)


The SKS PXX series are also excellent

http://www.sks-germany.com/sks.php?l=en&a=product&i=6409800121


Honjos are good too.

[handsomerob]

Our Honjo fenders come with all required hardware; this is important to note since Honjo hardware is sometimes sold separately. They are pre-drilled for stays and at the fork crown, but not at the brake and chainstay bridges.

These are 700c size, but they also fit 27" wheels. The 35mm fenders are for tires up to 26mm wide. 43mm fenders fit tires up to 32mm and some 35mm. And 45mm fenders fit tires to 35mm and some 38mm. Length: front fender, ~90cm, rear ~120cm.

$79.00, complete kit.

http://velo-orange.com/hohafe43.html

I just talked to Chris at Velo Orange and he confirmed that everything I need is included in the kit. For $79, it seems like a no brainer. The only question is whether I go with 43mm or 45mm fenders. Any downside to going with 45s?

[thejen12]

The only question is whether I go with 43mm or 45mm fenders. Any downside to going with 45s?
More toe overlap?

Jenn

[palincss]

The better offerings from SKS and Planet bike are also great fenders.

Planet Bike has the Cascadia for $40is
http://ecom1.planetbike.com/7026_5.html
This already comes with flaps (good for keeping tire splash from the front tire off your drivetrain)


The SKS PXX series are also excellent

http://www.sks-germany.com/sks.php?l=en&a=product&i=6409800121


Honjos are good too.


If you intend to imply that plastic fenders perform as Honjos, I must disagree. I've never used Planet Bike's but I have used SKS (now, and back when they were called ESGE) and Bluemels. They're cheap and fairly easy to install, but there simply is no comparison when it comes to either appearance or ability to keep the water off you.

Road water tends to collect up at the metal "dams" that are created by the internal braces that hold the fender stays onto plastic fenders, and spills out the sides. There are no internal dams on Honjos, and the water stays inside the fender until it exits from the bottom.

Also, the Honjo's are much longer than any plastic fenders I've ever seen. That's great in terms of directing water away from your feet and off the drivetrain; not so good when it comes to putting a bike on a roof rack, perhaps (the front fender will hit the tray, if you have one, and if not it may even hit the roof of the car).

As far as appearance goes, I can only speak for myself, but I had lust in my heart for Lefols for over 30 years. I have Honjo's on my commuter, and I've had many people on the bike trail tell me how great my bike looks, in particular how great the Honjo fenders look. I've used plastic fenders for over 30 years, and I never once had anyone tell me how great they looked.

There is one area where plastic fenders are superior: ease of mounting. You can install a set of SKS fenders in around 10-15 minutes; first time out, expect to spend as much as 3 hours installing Honjos.

[palincss]

I just talked to Chris at Velo Orange and he confirmed that everything I need is included in the kit. For $79, it seems like a no brainer. The only question is whether I go with 43mm or 45mm fenders. Any downside to going with 45s?

28mm tires won't fill out the 45's as well; if you can't or won't be using 35mm tires then the 43s would probably be a better choice. After all, those fenders look at least as sharp as Italian suits; shouldn't they fit as well too?

Were it me, I'd take some measurements and make sure the 35s would fit with fenders before I made the decision.

[handsomerob]

28mm tires won't fill out the 45's as well; if you can't or won't be using 35mm tires then the 43s would probably be a better choice. After all, those fenders look at least as sharp as Italian suits; shouldn't they fit as well too?

Were it me, I'd take some measurements and make sure the 35s would fit with fenders before I made the decision.

Chris suggested that many 35c tires aren't really 35mm and I should measure them to be sure. He seemed to be of the opinion that a good number of 35c tires would be fine to use with 43's.

[72gmc]

handsomerob, I run Berthouds on my Davidson and have a set of the Velo-Orange house brand fenders (inexpen$ive) sitting in the wings. I will finally have time to see if they fit over the holiday; at 46mm they may be too wide but they have excellent length--a good bit more coverage than the Berthouds.

If you're not itching to pull the trigger, my loss may be your gain. If you are, I recommend seeing if VO has the house brand fenders in stock.

[handsomerob]

handsomerob, I run Berthouds on my Davidson and have a set of the Velo-Orange house brand fenders (inexpen$ive) sitting in the wings. I will finally have time to see if they fit over the holiday; at 46mm they may be too wide but they have excellent length--a good bit more coverage than the Berthouds.

If you're not itching to pull the trigger, my loss may be your gain. If you are, I recommend seeing if VO has the house brand fenders in stock.

Thanks for the offer, but $79 for new hammered Honjos with all the bits is cheap enough for me to just order from VO.

[72gmc]

By all means, support Chris. I'll probably find a way to make these work anyway. A little beer, some tools, some tunes, a stubborn nature...

[dvancleve]

Rob,

It it was me and I was thinking of maybe leaving the fenders on for rough use I would go with either Berthoud stainless steel fenders (stronger AND cheaper than Honjos) or the Velo-Orange alloy ones (much less dough if something goes bad).

Merry Christmas,
Doug

I just talked to Chris at Velo Orange and he confirmed that everything I need is included in the kit. For $79, it seems like a no brainer. The only question is whether I go with 43mm or 45mm fenders. Any downside to going with 45s?

[11.4]

Some new hammered Honjos going up on the classifieds in a couple minutes.

[jbay]

If you intend to imply that plastic fenders perform as Honjos, I must disagree. [...]
Road water tends to collect up at the metal "dams" that are created by the internal braces that hold the fender stays onto plastic fenders, and spills out the sides. There are no internal dams on Honjos, and the water stays inside the fender until it exits from the bottom.
Steve,

Not to be argumentative, but do you really find either of your points above to be absolute? I ask, because after using plastic fenders for longer than I really want to think about, I have never found their reputed damming to be particularly damnable. I only notice spillage from the internal braces when riding through the same type of standing water that causes Honjos (or Berthouds) to overflow too. Throw enough water at either type, by descending a mountain pass or riding through a couple of inches of standing water, and your feet will get wet, even with well-shaped 'flaps.



Also, the Honjo's are much longer than any plastic fenders I've ever seen.
Agreed.


As far as appearance goes, I can only speak for myself, but I had lust in my heart for Lefols for over 30 years. [...] I've used plastic fenders for over 30 years, and I never once had anyone tell me how great they looked.
My enthusiasm for fenders/mudguards is on a different level. :rolleyes: However, the rare gold Esges (which I used to have on the Longstaff) were rather nice and Blumels, in a colour complementary to your frame, could look rather spiffy too.


There is one area where plastic fenders are superior: ease of mounting. You can install a set of SKS fenders in around 10-15 minutes; first time out, expect to spend as much as 3 hours installing Honjos.
Also agreed. However, contrary to popular opinion, I will add durability too. I've had ESGEs on the go for 15+ years through all kinds of abuse. On the other hand, in just the last three years, lured to try them by their looks and reputation, I've broken two Honjos and two Berthouds despite painstaking installations. At this stage, I'm back to plastic!

-- John

[Ray]

Also agreed. However, contrary to popular opinion, I will add durability too. I've had ESGEs on the go for 15+ years through all kinds of abuse. On the other hand, in just the last three years, lured to try them by their looks and reputation, I've broken two Honjos and two Berthouds despite painstaking installations. At this stage, I'm back to plastic!

-- John
I gotta agree with John on this one. I've used SKS/Esges for years and years and years without problems. I've had one set of Berthouds which were such a pain in the butt I took 'em off the bike after a few months and never put 'em back on. I have a set of Honjos on my Bleriot and they look great and work well, but I had a set of old beat to hell SKS on it before the Honjos arrived and they worked just as well. Yeah, the honjos are longer, but with the right mud-flap on the SKS, no functional difference except you CAN get those on a roof-rack. I've never had any problems with the 'damming' effect Steve talked about either - if its raining hard enough for THAT to be an issue, you're gonna be pretty wet anyway.

Also, I find it easier to get the tire closer to the innards of the fender with plastic because there's literally no hardware inside the fender, with the possible exception of a small zip-tie or two. With the honjos, there are bolts from the fender stays and from the thing that hangs down from the brake bolt under the fork crown extending inside the fender, which means I have to set if further from the tire to assure good clearance. It's workable, but I don't really love that design from a functional standpoint. Everything looks hunky dory on the outside, but not nearly as clean on the inside.

In short, the hammered honjos are really really pretty pieces of hardware and, if that matters, go for it, install 'em, and never take 'em off. But if the aesthetics aren't an issue to you, go for SKS. Hell, I have a set of SKS on my more relaxed road bike, using Sheldon's fender nuts (http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/fenders_and_flaps#product=27-008) and I can put 'em on and take 'em off in a couple of minutes, tops. So I tend to put 'em on for wet rides and take 'em off for periods of good weather. Highly functional.

-Ray

[vaxn8r]

If you intend to imply that plastic fenders perform as Honjos, I must disagree. I've never used Planet Bike's but I have used SKS (now, and back when they were called ESGE) and Bluemels. They're cheap and fairly easy to install, but there simply is no comparison when it comes to either appearance or ability to keep the water off you.

Road water tends to collect up at the metal "dams" that are created by the internal braces that hold the fender stays onto plastic fenders, and spills out the sides. There are no internal dams on Honjos, and the water stays inside the fender until it exits from the bottom.

Also, the Honjo's are much longer than any plastic fenders I've ever seen. That's great in terms of directing water away from your feet and off the drivetrain; not so good when it comes to putting a bike on a roof rack, perhaps (the front fender will hit the tray, if you have one, and if not it may even hit the roof of the car).

As far as appearance goes, I can only speak for myself, but I had lust in my heart for Lefols for over 30 years. I have Honjo's on my commuter, and I've had many people on the bike trail tell me how great my bike looks, in particular how great the Honjo fenders look. I've used plastic fenders for over 30 years, and I never once had anyone tell me how great they looked.

There is one area where plastic fenders are superior: ease of mounting. You can install a set of SKS fenders in around 10-15 minutes; first time out, expect to spend as much as 3 hours installing Honjos.

That's not my experience with either SKS and Planet Bikes. I've used about 7-8 sets over the years. Mine have never leaked water out the sides. The older versions required an extender but the new ones are more than adequate if you're not pacelining. Maybe you didn't install correctly?

Honjo's look cool. There is that.

[palincss]

Yeah, the honjos are longer, but with the right mud-flap on the SKS, no functional difference except you CAN get those on a roof-rack. I've never had any problems with the 'damming' effect Steve talked about either - if its raining hard enough for THAT to be an issue, you're gonna be pretty wet anyway.

Also, I find it easier to get the tire closer to the innards of the fender with plastic because there's literally no hardware inside the fender, with the possible exception of a small zip-tie or two. With the honjos, there are bolts from the fender stays and from the thing that hangs down from the brake bolt under the fork crown extending inside the fender, which means I have to set if further from the tire to assure good clearance. It's workable, but I don't really love that design from a functional standpoint. Everything looks hunky dory on the outside, but not nearly as clean on the inside.



Apropos of "damming" - BQ found this to be an issue, and you may well have seen it, too. Water tends to come out the sides of the fender and stream back towards your feet. It's especially noticeable when you ride through a puddle. Killer? No. Annoying? Yes. In fact, one BQ reader found it enough so he relocated the metal bracket that holds the stays from inside the fender to the outside, and reported improved performance as a result.

Apropos of the "bolt that hangs down," yes that may be true if that is how your fenders mount. I have the Honjos on my Kogswell P/R, which has a threaded fitting on the underside of the fork crown. All that's inside the fender at that point is the head of an M5 machine screw that goes up through the fender and the spacer into that fork crown fitting.

You can also mount Honjos with a metal bracket very similar to what's found on an SKS, that grips around the outside of the fender and has a metal tab through which you run the brake bolt.

Re: mud flaps: I'm told plastic fenders aren't strong enough to support the leather Berthoud or VO mud flaps I use on my Honjos and Berthouds. I've never tried Alex Wetmore's stair-tread mud flaps, which I'm told work very well; but the floppy thin fabric-like leather I have used on SKS fenders just doesn't work nearly as well; and in my experience, the mud flap is a key element in fender performance.

I haven't used the Honjos enough (1 year, 3,000 miles) to speak of reliability issues. My Berthouds (admittedly, a lot stronger than Honjos) have over 9,000 miles and 3 years of service. They've been banged around a bit and I've straightened them, and they continue to work just fine. Knock wood.

[capybaras]

That bike looks nice now. Don't muck it up with fenders. Just wear plastic pants.

[fixednwinter]

Re: mud flaps: I'm told plastic fenders aren't strong enough to support the leather Berthoud or VO mud flaps I use on my Honjos and Berthouds. I've never tried Alex Wetmore's stair-tread mud flaps, which I'm told work very well; but the floppy thin fabric-like leather I have used on SKS fenders just doesn't work nearly as well; and in my experience, the mud flap is a key element in fender performance.
.

Yes, I have thin plastic Bluemels, and they don't look like they could support a thick leather mudflap. They do come with a thin, plastic mud flap already installed. Not great, but better than not having one at all.

Mike Barry makes his own leather mudflaps which are as thick as the Brooks flaps, and he successfully installed one on my SKS fenders, which are made of a thicker plastic than the Bluemels. I'm going into my third winter with them, and so far, so good.

I completely agree that the mud flap is essential - for me, it's the only way to reduce spray on my toes effectively.

[Ray]

Apropos of the "bolt that hangs down," yes that may be true if that is how your fenders mount. I have the Honjos on my Kogswell P/R, which has a threaded fitting on the underside of the fork crown. All that's inside the fender at that point is the head of an M5 machine screw that goes up through the fender and the spacer into that fork crown fitting.

You can also mount Honjos with a metal bracket very similar to what's found on an SKS, that grips around the outside of the fender and has a metal tab through which you run the brake bolt.
Yeah, a tapped fitting under the fork crown and/or brake bridge (or a bracket that slides over the fender) solves those location, but you've still got to deal with the bolt(s) where the stays wrap around the fender. Some work with one bolt, which would be one level of problem. Mine came pre-drilled from Velo-Orange with two holes on each fender, which means two bolts coming in at angles. I snipped them as close as possible with bolt cutters (not that close, btw) and still have to set the fender back more than I'd like to clear the mess in there. These are on my townie, so not a big deal, but I wouldn't have to take this bike into an even remotely muddy area with all that confusion inside the back of each fender.

Overall, I find the function to be roughly equal, with minor pros and cons to each. I've never even noticed the damming from the brackets on SKS, let alone been bothered by it, but I'll take your word (and VBQs) for it. The versatility of plastic is better while the aesthetics of metal is better. I'm glad to have the purty honjos on one bike, but I don't think I'd intentionally put 'em on another.

-Ray

[FMS_rider]

One potential issue that has not been addressed is whether you anticipate riding under winter conditions where ice buildup on metal fenders could be a problem. This has never happened with the SKS fenders on my winter bike under a wide variety of conditions, the worst being when the temperature plummets and causes "salt-slush" splatter from the road to rapidly build a thick cocoon over all metal surfaces.

With regard to the internal "bracket damming" issue with SKS fenders, I do sometimes see slush spraying out to the sides from the upper rear bracket on the front fender, but it is minimal and not a problem.

I do not know if ice buildup is an actual (as opposed to potential) problem with metal fenders. If anyone here has an answer I would love to know because I would switch to metal if icing is not a problem.

[palincss]

Steve,

Not to be argumentative, but do you really find either of your points above to be absolute? I ask, because after using plastic fenders for longer than I really want to think about, I have never found their reputed damming to be particularly damnable. I only notice spillage from the internal braces when riding through the same type of standing water that causes Honjos (or Berthouds) to overflow too. Throw enough water at either type, by descending a mountain pass or riding through a couple of inches of standing water, and your feet will get wet, even with well-shaped 'flaps.



Absolute? Certainly not. It's not like they're useless or anything like that. I've used SKS fenders for a long time, and never particularly paid all that much notice to what was happening to the water, although I did notice a certain amount of side-streaming. Then I got Berthouds and Honjos, and there was no doubt, they were better. I wasn't sure why, thought maybe because they were wider, maybe that big mud flap made the difference.

Then the BQ review pointed out the water damming, and I took a good hard look at what was happening down there - and sure enough, there it was.

Don't get me wrong - I never suggested one shouldn't use plastic fenders. They're easy to put on, easy to take off, and they're cheap. Contrary to vaxn8r's suggestion that I might not have installed the SKS fenders correctly, IMO one of their greatest strengths is that it is basically impossible to install them incorrectly.
That's far from the case with the Honjos; it's very easy to install them wrong, and it takes a lot of care and painstaking effort to install them correctly.

[vaxn8r]

P,

I just asked if you'd installed them correctly, with one of these "?" It wasn't a statement or judgement on your technical skills. I asked that because I've never had the issues you've described with plastic fenders despite using plastic fenders on 6 different bikes over the last 20 years.

BTW, plastic fenders are really aluminum fenders with a plastic coating. At least they are if you are refering to SKS or Planet Bike. If you've ever tried to cut one you would know. Because of that they are more than hardy enough to support mud flaps.

[palincss]

P,

I just asked if you'd installed them correctly, with one of these "?" It wasn't a statement or judgement on your technical skills. I asked that because I've never had the issues you've described with plastic fenders despite using plastic fenders on 6 different bikes over the last 20 years.

BTW, plastic fenders are really aluminum fenders with a plastic coating. At least they are if you are refering to SKS or Planet Bike. If you've ever tried to cut one you would know. Because of that they are more than hardy enough to support mud flaps.

Here's what Peter White says about the Berthoud mud flap, which he sells: "The leather mud flap can only be used on the stainless steel fenders. It is not to be used on the carbon fiber fenders. Nor is it suitable for use on other brands of fenders such as Esge/SKS." I've never tried using one on an SKS.

I'm not sure how much aluminum there actually is in one of those. I've been told it's more like foil than anything structural, but I've never tried to cut one. The old Bluemels are pure plastic, and it's easy to see, because they can get brittle and snap off the ends. The plastic in the SKS thicker and less brittle.

Re: technical skills - I wasn't taking issue with your question, rather just pointing out how much less skill is req'd to install the SKS than the Honjos.

I spent hours reading Jitensha's article and two from VBQ - even bought a back issue of VBQ to get the 2nd article - recalling the steps I'd seen Peter White take to install the Berthouds on my Saluki, and visualizing how I'd go about mounting them, before I started. It took hours, but as a result the process went well and I was very satisfied with the results.

By comparison, putting on a set of SKS fenders is about as hard as putting on a pair of socks. No measuring, no drilling, no hammering a flat into the area that goes under the fork crown; just bolt them on and go. Often you don't even have to trim the length of the stays.

[Ray]

Very wet, foggy morning here today. Out of the house at 8 for the couple of mile run to the grocery store for milk and a couple of other things. Several big puddles. I'm on the Bleriot with honjos and no side spillage along the normally wet portions of the roads. Rode through a couple of good size puddles. SIDE SPILLAGE! Not anywhere near a joint or bracket (of which there are none on the front fender). Just a pure volume issue from what I could tell. Toss enough water up against a fender and not all of it will politely adhere to the material whilst draining along to the bottom of the fender. Some of it just falls out. Gravity overcoming hydraulic adhesion, or whatever the hell you call it. None on my feet, but some falling waters to be sure.

I got home and, being the curious sort that I am, I went for the same short spin on my fixie with SKS fenders and a mudflap. Same thing happened. Nothing along just wet roads, a bit of spillage from going through the big puddles. It may have come out near the brackets - I'm frankly not sure. But the same basic result in terms of what I observed and what I felt on my feet (nothing).

This was all low-speed riding. I had some speed going down to the grocery store, but not much in the way of standing water on the hills. Odd how that works. Probably not more than 10-15 mph on the flat sections on the Bleriot and I did my best to maintain the same sort of speed on the fixie. Maybe at high speeds, there'd be a difference. Doesn't much matter to me, though, because the honjos are on the Bleriot, which will likely never exceed maybe 18 mph on flat ground and I'm not straying from SKS on my wet weather road bike and fixie.

I make no claims of scientific or statistical validity here. Just one dry fellow's observations on a wet morning. And, oh yeah, I was really only looking at the front fender - didn't make any special effort to look at the rear, but still dry feet.

Now for more coffee.

-Ray