Tubular rims?

[rwl]

I've been lusting for tubulars, not that there's anything wrong with clinchers in '04 - the tires are a lot better than anything back in 'the day', tubes and rims don't seem to have advanced much. But I'm missing the sweet ride of sew-ups. I guess I've just been missing spending my evenings re-sewing tubies. Its gotten under my skin enough that I'm riding old steel just to be on wheels I like - old NR 32 hubs, Fiamme reds, yellows and super champs, tied & soldered.

My problem is that I want to build the new tubular wheels, I'd like them mid-v aero, and I can't find such a rim that isn't blasted carbon! As an alternative, I'd be ok with getting them built by someone who has a first name, rather than a prebuilt. Does anyone have any recommendations? Mavic reflex just isn't my choice - a bit heavy, and very much non aero. But where are the alternatives?

By the way, anybody know why the state-of-the-art in '73 was a 250gm rim, and in '04 we're closer to 400gm? OK, I know its the dish, but gee, its been 30 years, and I'm not getting any faster!

Rick

[amg]

being that you're in the sf/bay area, I'm sure our esteemed colleague BigMac could recommend some good wheel builders in your area. I've recently had a set of Mavic Reflex on Chorus hubs built by a very talented wheel builder in Augusta, Georgia by the name of Ted Alba. He builds wheels as a side business and the wheels he built for me are the best wheels I have ever ridden - bar none!

I think a very light tubular rim (non-aero) is the Ambrosio F-20 and possibly the Velocity Escape. I guess if you want a really light and aero tubular rim you might want to look at carbon rims, but that's just a guess.

Antonio :beer:

[Too Tall]

Thumbs up for the Velocity Escape. So far so good, I am riding a new set this yr. and they are strong and reasonably light and NOT carbon ;)

[theoldman]

Ambrosio has a broad range of tubular rims available. Ital-tecno.com has a number of them listed on their web page. Some of these are semi-aero.

http://www.ital-tecno.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=34

I have a pair of Ambrosio Excellence tubular rims mounted to campy hubs. They are not the lightest I have ever ridden, but they are very strong and everyday wheels. When I was lighter and younger, I loved the Fiame Red/Yellow label rims. Good memories of those wheels, but then again, I have lots of memories of truing those buggers every month.

You will find that the Ambrosio rims are very good. In my opinion, they are much better than Mavic and much more reliable than anything I used 30 years ago.

I find it funny that so few people today use tubulars. Modern tubular tires, like the Continental Competition coupled to a quality wheel are everyday tires that have a great ride 'feel', are very reliable and basically maintenance free. What more can you want in a tire...

[bostondrunk]

I train on a set of 28 hole Ambrosio Crono (similar in weight to a Mavic GL330 I believe) on record hubs. I weigh about 175, never had a problem, never out of true. I think I built them with DT double butted spokes and alloy nipples....can't remember...<burp>

[BigMac]

RWL:

Actually the "flyweight" sewup rims of yore is mostly a fable. The actual superlight sub 300g rims were very rare, very flexible and for very limited situations. Others, the Mavic GEL's for example had claimed masses of 280g which in typical Mavic-speak meant they were in reality 315-320 grams of spaghetti like flex. The very popular GL was in reality 365g rim despite its claimed 330g mass. The GP4 was around 440 grams and the famous Paris-Roubaix was a portly 490g, although that rim won more races in its day than any rim in history...perhaps rider watts and durability are in fact more important :rolleyes:

Mavic is famous for their claimed masses, when Reflex was introduced, it was actually considered the sucessor to the GL330, claimed to be more durable and only slightly heavier at 375g, per Mavic Fr. Then when the same rim arrived on US shores, the US distributor claimed its mass was 395g...same identical rim and in fact I believe Mavic still claims this is the true mass of said rim, with 410g for the ceramic brake surface version. In reality, the standard silver anodized Reflex is around 420g, a pretty light and relative strong rim. By comparison, an Open Pro is approximately 470-480g, despite what Mavic claims (450?). This is true of basically anything wearing a Mavic label, add 8-10% and you'll have true weight...if it really matters to you.

NOS rims? The really good Ambrosio's of the day were all over 400 grams, Wolber offered a couple of light rims in the 350g class but they were similar to Mavic GL's in terms of strength. The Fiammes were very spotty qc and they did offer some very low mass rims but their best rims (durable) were >400g. Super Champion had some great rims in 60's but most 'modern' Super Champions are rebadged Wolber (company was bought by Wolber in around '72) or Mavic (Wolber was bought by Mavic in mid 80's and they kept SuperChampion name for Asian market up till late 90's). The best lightweight sewup rims were Campy, they had a couple of true 350g rims that were reasonably strong, had great vertical braking surfaces and always perfectly round and true. These were all produced in-house till early 90's when FIR took over production with nearly same superlative quality but slightly higher mass models due to dish issues.

The more modern sewup rims are a bit dicey. I avoid Ambrosio, they too were bought in mid 90's and most of their rims are pinned and glued. They do offer 2 FIR produced rims which are welded but both are clincher models. The Velocity sewup rim is similarly pinned and glued which I do not prefer and my personal experience with Velocity rims is questionable. They are a bit higher quality (more consistent qc) than Sun/Rhyngo but I have yet to see a single Velocity rim arrive in original packaging perfectly round and true. In truth, Mavic's are rarely round and true, but they are more consistently close than Velocity, plus Mavic's are welded which is likely cause for some slight trueness/roundness irregularities which is easily corrected in buildup.

The FIR rims are in my opinion the best available...well actually I love Bontrager rims and especially their pricing but Bontrager unfortunately has not offered a sewup rim...yet (Sr. Jerk had indicated one may be forthcoming?). FIR rims are, ime, the 2nd coming of vintage Campy rims; remarkably true, round and strong. FIR does offer at least 3 alloy sewup rims I am aware of. I do not recall the names of the individual models, one is essentially a 20mm box rim, 13mm tall, very similar to Reflex. A second is an aero V model, 20x20mm, 460g, very strong. The last is the "Concept 2000" model, the front is a traditional aero V, 20x19mm available in 24,28 and 32H drillings. The rear rim is 20x20mm semi-aero (similar shape as Open Pro) with 3mm offset assyemmtric rear drilling for reduced dish. This rim however has a significant downside in that it is designed as a team issue model. Its is very dark grey anodized but with HUGE "CONCEPT 2000" logo, each letter spaced evenly between spoke hole and a reasonably large "FIR" logo as well in very bright yellow. It also appears to not be available for public retail, at least not to my knowledge at this time. There is a clincher version of similar design available to public so hopefully the sewup version may soon follow. I have been using these rims on 2 of my bikes, they are remarkably strong and relatively light -- team mechanics say they arrive incredibly true and they weigh 410g +/- 5g....that includes ss eyelets. I am trying to acquire 15-20 of the rear rims only to ship back to 'States next month but if import duties end up being ridiculous, I will just keep them with me here in Italy and pack only 2 or 3 in our luggage when we return home at the end of August. I would be shipping from my residence in Italy directly to my residence in US and the items would not technically be for resale (friends would be reimbursing my shipping costs only), does anybody know if there is a legal way to avoid import duties for such an event? If I am able to ship these rims, I would be willing to make a few rims available to fellow forum members in September.

Campy's last rim building efforts included the forgettable Barcelona model. this was claimed to be an in-house effort, not sure whether this is true, the result was poor qc and a rim HIGHLY prone to popping rim eyelets. I would avoid this rim although it was a true lightweight at approx 375g.

Unless you can find the Concept 2000 rim, or I am able to ship a few myself, I honestly think prebuilt wheels are the better choice for sewup wheels using modern 43mm drivelines. The Campy Neutron/Nucleon and Bontrager Race X-Lite are excellent offerings, with reduced dish rims, good hubs albeit rather eye-popping prices for a daily wheelset.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[flydhest]

Mac,

I don't know nuthin' about import duties, but if you work out getting those puppies stateside, I'd like to be one of your friends reimbursing you for shipping costs, etc.
:beer:

[rwl]

BigMac,

The FIRs seem ideal. The import duties are low - 5% I think, if Total Cycling (http://www.totalcycling.com/Merchant/customs.htm) has it right. I tried to look it up on the new customs site, but they've made it, apparently, impossible to follow.

I used to have great luck on the semi-mythical box section rims - Yellows, Ergals, etc, riding at 185 in my sprinting days. They did take a bit of trueing, admittedly, but tieing 'n soldering really seemed to help the stiffness and maintainence.

[big D]

Hello, this is a question for Big Mac. I am 6'3" 350lbs+. I am interested in building up a set of tubulars and have found Ital-thecnos online has many different types. Do you think I can build of sturdy wheels with Mavic CXP 30 of Ambrosio rims. If not these rims what do you suggest? What every i build for my second set of wheels I will be going with 36 spokes and i think white industry hubs or DT's

thanks in advance

Big D

[BigMac]

Fly:

I will be happy to email you if I can ship these over w/o much hassle. I am supposed to be picking them up late next week and then I will proceed with investigating shipping-import duty issues.

BigD:

You are a prime candidate for the Bontrager rim, if it ever makes it to production or the FIR's, although the 32H maybe a bit too little even with assymetric drilling. You are also a good candidate for the hub upgrade, not for weight but for strength in freehub, flange and flange design for reduced dish. Are you using Campy or Shimano? Use White LTA hub for Campy, Phil Wood hub for Shimano. Lace 3x on driveside, 2x leftside. I would consider using the DT Alpine (I believe that is name of spoke, it features a 13g elbow which both White and Phil are drilled for, the balance of spoke is 14g for standard brass nipple compliance. You will only need these on driveside as non-drive will have lower tension and straight 14g spokes will be fine. You may consider tie and soldering spokes, it makes for a stiffer wheel, possibly stronger although that is debatable, retrueing/servicing can be more problematic and your wheels will DEFINATELY require periodic servicing (spoke replacements) regardless of components used. Sewup rims? Not the Reflex or any other currently available rim. The CXP30's are pretty strong, although really ugly imo...not that it really matters :rolleyes: . I would see if you could find NOS 36H Mavic SSC Paris-Roubaix rims. They will be pricey but far more durable than alternatives. The vintage Ambrosio Synthesis Durex was also available in 36H and extremely strong. There are bunches of NOS Italian rims labeled Galli, Assos, Fiamme, Nisi....most were of marginal quality and considerably too light for your requirements. Wish I could help with direct source but until I can easily ship the FIR's, Google is probably your best source and the Mavic P-R's are the best possible choice.

I would also suggest minimum 25mm sewups, the recently discontinued Conti Competition 25's are pricey but bomb-proof durable and extremely smooth. NOS Clements(rebuilt and sold as Dugast's by Andre Dugast) are not quite as durable and extraordinarily expensive but worth it given your size. Wolber also made great sewups in their day in 24-27mm widths. Be sure you have enough clearence for fat sewups, if so you will love the ride, response and feel.

It's past midnight now and I'm about to turn into a pumpkin if I don't hit the hay soon.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[bfd]

Bulltek Sports list 4 FiR tubular rims:

http://www.bullteksports.com/catalog/rims.htm

[amg]

at 200 lbs I have no problems with the Reflex rims. Perfectly round and true. Nice braking surface. I think a lot depends on the wheel builder. FWIW, Joe Young prefers the Mavic Reflex and I think he knows a thing or two about building good wheels. I don't think you have to smuggle ;) in rims from Europe to be able to build up a nice set of tubular wheels. Again, a lot depends on the builder. A perfectly good rim can be ruined by an inexperienced wheel builder, so I'd worry about who's going to build it first.

Antonio

[Too Tall]

MacMan, Fly and I are BOTH your friends! If it works out, count me in brother. Fly and I can split shipping. The rim sounds ideal. Dang wish I could do something for you? Good call on the Alpine spoke.

BigD, once you've settled on the goods talk to Joe Young or Dave Thomas for the build. Also, look at TUFO Elite Road tubular. The Elite Road has one of the best weight to volume ratios of any tub. and I can't wear one out!!! Talk to the owner at World Class Cycles http://www.worldclasscycles.com/tubular-price2.htm ) he can chat with you about the Paris Roubaix Tubular tire (27mm). I've considered it for tandem racing and recall these may be old Vittoria stock???? Anybody know fer sher?

[big D]

Thanks Big Mac & Too Tall,

I have found a few places here in North America that are selling FIR rims. They are reasonable priced compared to Mavics and look good.

Another question for Big Mac. You stated that FIR have offset rims like Bontrager. What do they OSB? Are all the rims welded and have machine side walls. Their website is very good for explaining what features they have on each rim.

I was on the VeloFlex web site and noticed that thbey have 24mm tublular, do you think that would be wide enough to hold 3xl wid butt.

Thanks for help guys.

[theprep]

rwl:

If you go to the World class cycles web site that Too Tall mentioned, click on the "Track Stuff" link. They have a bunch of tubular rims from:

-Fir - some listed as Aero like you asked for
-Araya
-Mavic
-Sun
-Velocity

This year I've tried the Ambrosio Chrono F20 (365 grams) and the Sun M19A II (362 grams). Both had horrible brake surfaces that were not parallel and caused severe front end shimmy while stopping.

I now have Velocity Escapes (390/392 grams) with a machined brake surface. They built up great, round and true. The braking is excellent.

www.Sun-Ringle.com has a new light weight, box section tubular rim available this year. It is called the Vista Cruiser (pretty hokey name). Its claimed weight is 345 grams and it has double eyelets. For some odd reason it does not have one of the three brake surface treatments that Sun offers on most of its rims??

[rwl]

BigMac,
I'm really interested in a set of the FIR rims, should they become available. I'd really like to build up a set. The responses favoring X Lites prompted me to look them up, and as luck would have it, I managed to grab a new set at a great deal. But ... I'd still like to build a set of tubulars on campy hubs as well.

Everyone, once again I'm amazed at the depth of knowledge folks here have. Your worth far more than Google could ever raise. Thanks!
Rick

[Pastashop]

BM,

thanks for your informative posts! I'm contemplating a new wheelset and found your description of the rims very helpful.

However, I feel like I'm in danger of raising one very dead horse only to keep kicking it for a fortnight... I just happened to re-read Brandt's book on wheelbuilding and have some questions:

1) what do you make of Brandt's, Rinard's, Brown's, and others' measurements, indicating that tied-and-soldered wheels do not gain in stiffness over standard wheels?

2) how does welding improve upon pinned/glued rims?

3) what would you recommend as a good modern-day equivalent of the MA2?

Thanks!

[vaxn8r]

I have some personal experience with GEL 280's. They were my race-only wheels back in the 80's when I weighed in at 160. I had them 32 spoke laced to Record hubs. They didn't last a season. The rims bulged out at every spoke head making braking interesting and shuddering to say the least. What a waste of a lot of money (at the time). I have no idea what the actual weights were.

[e-RICHIE]

tubular rims?
the best ever - campagnolo record and sigma series
in either the strada or pave models. they were the
22mm wide rims that were beyond great! one could
easily reduce spoke count by 4 or even 8 and still maintain
a superbly built wheel by dint of* the added 2mm of rim
cross section. i raced through the 90s on 28 spoke-ers
with no problems.
e-RICHIE
* what does "by dint of" mean???

ps

:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:cool: :cool: :cool:

arrange disorder

[amg]

I concur with e-richie (always a smart thing to do :) ), the Campagnolo Sigma and Record series rims are awesome! I roamed the earth looking for a pair of 32-hole Sigma Strada or Pavé rims (e-richie had a pair, but wanted my farm and all the livestock on it for them ;) ), the best I could do was find a pair of lightly used wheels and remove the rims from the hubs. Still turned out to be terrific wheels! Every time I walk into a shop that's been around for awhile, the first thing I usually ask is if they have any of these rims leftover. The usual response - "Oh the Sigma Strada with the white and blue stripes"? At this point I begin to salivate that they may actually have a pair - "NO"! Thanks. :crap:

Antonio

[e-RICHIE]

i'm still sitting on a *****load of these in 28 hole that
i hope to race on well into my 50s...
e-RICHIE

ps

:D :D :D
:p :p :p
:cool: :cool: :cool:

arrange disorder

[amg]

e-richie:

Two cows and a goat and that's my final offer! ;)

Antonio

[M_A_Martin]

by dint of =
by force of
or
because of

dint
Pronunciation: 'dint
Function: noun
1 archaic : BLOW, STROKE
2 : FORCE, POWER
3 : 2DENT

This is of course the first definition of dint. The second definition is "did not" as in
"I dint git sumt'n sumt'n"

Did I win a free bike, how about a set of those rims e-richie?

[oracle]

dinty moore

[zap]

Mavic GL 330 rims laced to Mavic hubs didn't last a season for me. Second worst wheelset I purchased.

First was that tandem wheelset.........

To bad Roval couldn't survive the cassette era. Or did it? Talk about being ahead of its time......Fond memories of cycling accomplishments with that wheelset. Geees, I think I used Regina (sp?) Al cogs with that wheelset!

[caffeine power]

When I was down at my fighting weight of 150# (more than a decade ago) I had no problem with the GEL 208's (28h/radialF & 2x R on Mavic hubs with alloy nipples) I still have the wheels but with the 8sp freewheel not matching the 9sp they don't get much use. I whole heartedly agree about the Campy Sigma's. Bobby Mionske left one with me years ago that, well, he's not riding that much any more and what with Celestial Seasonings not being a team any more I don't feel compelled to give it back. Wow, that was a Subaru series crit in Dallas in what, 1988? '89? Anyway, Wolber made a sweet semi aero tubular rim that I still have as a front wheel (32h) ...who borrowed the rear? That was what summer of '91? Ahh...the yin/yang of wheel borrowing...

[oracle]

i've also never had problems with ergals, and i've even raced cross on 'em.

[vaxn8r]

Caffeine power, you bring up a good point. Maybe it is riding style. Another good point is how good is your wheel builder?

Maybe the guy who built up my 32 hole GEL 280s didn't know what he was doing? I sure wouldn't have known any better. Still, I bet there is not a lot of room for error on those.

As for my riding, I did a lot of crits back in the day. Didn't have enough base miles to do well at road racing but I was pretty good at anything under 50 miles. I used to be a good Cat III. Not bad for a med student.

[Too Tall]

Gee "E" I have 1 32 h. record Strada. Guess that's a pretty weak bargining strategy. OK, I'll throw in 4 GP4s and 2 Super Champ. rims also. But you still have ALL the red twizzlers. Dang. Nope, you have it all my man.

[BigMac]

I am not a Campy historian by any account, I can only marginally recall the Campy rims I have used and most were indeed of exceptional quality. They did go outside for production of most of their rims from late 80's-on, however I am not aware of any specific problems attributed to that outsourcing. The traditional rim names were Record, Corsa and Victory as I recall but then somewhere in late 80's or early 90's the greek naming took over and we saw Omega, Sigma and Lambda. As I recall the Sigma was the priciest followed by Omega and Lambda, in that order. Sigma rims were made by FIR -- pronounced 'feer' if it matters -- the Omega's were apparently produced by Ambrosio before their buyout. I do not know who produced the Lambda series rims. I have put many miles on Sigma Strada and Record Pave's, both with excellent results. The Strada model is around 400g rim, no matter what "series", the Pave's were considerably beefier at maybe 460g. The Sigma, Record, Victory and Omega models all use ss eyelets, canted a bit to relieve spoke fatigue. The Sigma has nice flat braking surface, not machined like modern rims but extruded flat none-the-less, the Record Pave braking surface is a bit rounded. As long as you avoid the Barcelona model rim --produced in-house and apparently same as Neutron/Nucleon front rim but unfortunately not assymetrically drilled like Nucleon rear, it also has tendency to pop eyelets which Nucleon rarely does perhaps due to Campy's propreitary nipple design used on Nucleon -- any Campy sewup rim is a good choice in my book...at least for older chainlines and/or sub 200lb riders.

Update for those inquiring about assymetric drilled sewup rim:

As I previously noted, I will possibly be acquiring 1-2 dozen team issue "Concept" sewup rims, actually I only want the assyemtric drilled rear, I can happily use a standard FIR, Campy or Mavic box section sewup rim up front. I will know more later this week, FIR is located up north in Modena while I'm in Sorrento (south of Naples, north end of Amalfi coast). I do however have my hands on an '04 product catalog. It lists 2 sewup rims, model ST-120 and SRG30. The rim product line will apparently be unchanged for '05 as FIR continues to concentrate on the more profitable pre-built wheel market -- they will have no-less than 11 composite wheel offerings in '05! As for the sewup rims, the ST 120 is a 400g box section rim very comparable to Mavic Reflex. The SRG30 is a semi-aero (30mm deepx20mm wide) 505g rim (545g in clincher model) very similar to Mavic's discontinued CXP33 sewup rim. Braking surface is a full 11mm deep, joint is MIG welded. The best news however is that the SRG30 is available in assymetric drilling in both sewup and clincher versions! Its also available in 6 different colors, if that's your thing. The downside (imo) is that Red Rose Imports (Lancaster, PA) is the US distributor/importer. There is apparently another authorized importer but their alotment is so minute I seriously doubt they import any sewup rims. My personal experience with RRI is not great, they usually import a fraction of a vendors product line and their distribution is painfully slow. I am told they have ordered reasonable quantities of sewup offerings in past so hopefully I am incorrect in my assumption. Of course even if RRI does choose to import the SRG30, in Ferrari red no-less, there is no guarantee they will import the assymetric drilled rim as importing the symmetrically drilled front rim only would require 50% less inventory, no new product sku numbering and eliminate possible LBS confusion and inventory issues. I personally know of 2 BayArea Trek shops who do NOT stock Bontrager rims because of this very issue preferring to stock Mavic rims...but they do use the assyemtric sales pitch to sell Campy and Bontrager pre-builts of course :no: I will update folks early next week if I can easily ship the Concept rims, until then please contact your LBS or RRI directly to see if they will import SRG30 assyemtrics for you....retail price here is 5 Euros less than Mavic Reflex dark anodized.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[BigMac]

Pastashop:

1. I personally believe these folks are likely discussing or considering wheel strength which I personally agree t&s does nothing to improve. It does however improve wheel stiffness, which may or may not be a good thing depending on many factors. There are engineers who could explain in exhaustive detail why the wheel is torsionally stiffer but having ridden many examples of tied and non-tied I prefer to let personal experince do all of the explaining for me; tied and soldered is torsionally stiffer. I do not currently ride any t&s wheels.

2. A MIG welded rim is strongest at the joint, if of course the welding is performed correctly. A pinned-glued rim is weakest at joint. That's the theoretical explanation. In practice, I have personally witnessed pinned joints fail, I have never seen a welded joint fail. I seen many wheels fold up in accidents, the welded one never bend or break at weld, always somewhere else on rim. The pinned-glued rims almost always bend at joint. Welding is more costly and requires considerably greater care to prevent overheating/warping but its worth it, imo. Take any pinned-glued rim with as little as 2000 miles on it and feel the rim joint, there is always a slight bump due to joint movement, that is not good, again imo.

3. I believe you are mistaken, the MA2 is a clincher, no? There was the short-lived Mach2 which was a short "v" section sewup rim from Mavic somewhere in the early-mid 90's as I recall. The CXP line 18, 20, 30 and 33 replaced this model. Mavic no longer offers a similar model, FIR offers the SRG30 which is a considerably deeper V(30mm vs 20?) but superbly made and its assymetric drilled in rear if you can find it.

If you did in fact mean the MA2 clincher, why not the MA3 which I believe is still in production? Better yet, the Bontrager Fairlane/Maverick 700c (23mm width?) is priced at just $39 ea, MIG welded joint, assymetric rear drilling in 32 or 36H versions. This rim is similar light-touring duty as MA2, for even lighter mass the narrower Bontrager Aurora(20mm width) carries same price as Fairlane but is available 32H only, or at least I believe so. Mind you these are wire-on rims, NOT sewup rims as has been the topic of discussion on this thread so probably a waste of time as I assume you are referring to Mach2 rim, not the MA2. Hope this helps.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana: