Can you count to...

[Kevan]

Bicycle Retailer:

Shimano's 10-Speed Ultegra Officially Due In December
July 28, 2004 - NUNSPEET, Netherlands (BRAIN)--One of the industry's worst-kept secrets is now officially fact: Shimano is coming out with a 10-speed Ultegra group. The new Ultegra, featuring Hollowtech II technology borrowed from Dura-Ace, will be available in the market in December, said Harald Troost, press relations officer for Shimano Europe.

[Korn Julio]

Sweet! :D
....but I JUST GOT a new CDA with Ultegra 9 sp!! :crap: :crap:

[dbrk]

For those of us who think the advantages of 10 not worth the cost this is both good and bad news. The good news is that we will see slashed prices on "old" 9-speed. The bad news is that we will see more expensive 10-speed all-around. Somehow I can't really welcome this news but that sounds disagreeable and what am I to do? There is no fighting "progress." If this were progress I would not being putting up even the hint of a fight.

So it goes.
I was content with 8.

dbrk

[BigMac]

Well the pundits could complain that Shimano has twice delayed this release -- it was originally scheduled for release in July-August, then moved to October, now December -- in large part to further bank on extraordinary DA10 sales which sell at much higher margins. All in all, this is of course very good news, among other things it brings Shimano's latest engineering designs to the masses at 40% less cost than DA10. Now when 10 speed 105 hits the shelves, that will be worthy of some celebration. Shimano's forte remains its ability to produce high quality, superb performing components at bargain levels. DA10 is really just an engineering excercise for those with very deep pockets and/or unwillingness to wait for the reasonable priced fare. The same brilliant bb bearing design(although still saddled with ridiculously high q crankarms :crap: ), much improved brake caliper feel and geometry along with greatly improved STI ergonomics at old DA9 prices, what's not to like...well besides old Ultegra or 105 prices of course. Heck, if I were not so invested in Campy 10 wheelsets plus fact that I still prefer Ergo's ergonomics, just not so overwhelmingly as before, I would even consider Ultegra10...then again I hope I do not need another new bike for a good many miles and by then we'll be looking at internally geared electro-magnetic drivetrains, composite belt/chains and thermoplastic brake calipers...dbrk will of course still be searching his barn for vintage Simplex shifters, Mavic or Simplex rd's and Cyclotourist cranks ;) somethings never change...thank goodness!

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Louis]

So how many gears do you need and how closely spaced so you want them to be? In my opinion 6 cogs were kind of OK, 9 plenty and 10 downright wasteful.

Granted, I only recently switched from 6-spd to 9-spd, and most of my riding is on roller-coaster roads, but I estimated that for at least 80% of my shifts I go two gears. Plus, of the remaining 20% some of them are a shift of three gears as I reach the crest of a hill or start a climb at the bottom. Very few of my shifts are just to the adjoining cog, which tells me that 9 cogs are plenty. Plus, because I have a huge range of cog sizes on my MTB cassette, I have an even greater change in development than those with corn-cob cassettes. How finely do you need to adjust it?

Unless you are trying to spin at exactly 94.32 rpm with exactly a given force what’s the point? Just spin a bit faster or slower.

Do the manufacturers go to ever-increasing cogs because customers are asking for them, or for purely marketing “we have more gears than you do” reasons? I sure as heck don’t need that many. Do you? Why?

Louis

[BigMac]

Well as a gravity challenged rider living-riding among steep hills/mountains, I appreciate the gear range afforded by 10 speed cassettes and rarely shift up or down more than one cog unless also shifting chainring. That said, I got by just fine when 5speed freewheel was state of art and really never embraced the Ultra 6 freewheel or the subsequent 126mm rear axle and its six/ultra 7 offerings. 10 speed for the masses is a very good thing if and only if 10 speed is the standard for all lineups. I mean do we really want DA10 but everything else in 9 speed cog with incompatibility across the board? I personally do not. I do however wish Campy 10 spacing and Shimano 10 spacing were identical, will never happen but why not dream of a eutopian world? I know some will argue they are interchangable and in terms of function I suppose they are. But as long as the cog spacing is different (its around .25mm narrower per cog c-c on Shimano as I recall), there will be compromises in shifting performance and more importantly in drivetrain wear for those who do excercise cross compatibility drivetrains. Now while I'm in my eutopian existance, please also adapt 135mm rear spacing across the board and if we are to revert to say 6,7 or 8 speed rear clusters, please also narrow driveline to say 37.5cm which would result in much less rear dish (torsionally stronger wheels) and lower q cranks...that would be VERY appreciated, far more than additional cogs.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[bcm119]

The obsession with increasing number of cogs every year annoyed me for a while too, but since I've been using 9 speeds I have come to love the smaller jumps between gears. For less competitive riding or touring, 6 or 7 speeds is fine, but if you find yourself in the middle of a self-induced hammerfest you will find that your most efficient "power band" encompasses a pretty narrow range of cadence at a given speed. It used to be far more often that I'd find myself at the edge of my threshold and "in between gears", which can be as frustrating as driving an overloaded car up a mountain pass where 2nd gear is too low and 3rd too high. But since the advent of 9 and 10 speeds those situations are rare. They greatly increase the chance that you'll find that sweet spot gear at any speed.

OTOH, for touring I wish they'd make a 6 speed cassette with the same spacing, thereby reducing dish and allowing for a heck of a sturdy rear wheel.

[SPOKE]

i was hanging out in my LBS this afternoon and the Raleigh sales rep was showing off some new stuff. looks like Raleigh and Fuji will have full carbon frame offerings for 2005. the Raleigh samples indicate the frames will be built using similar techniques as the Trek OCLV frames. basically carbon lugs glued to carbon tubes. the most interesting part is the lugs and tubes won't be the traditional round offerings. check out the BMC frame that Tyler rides to get a tast of what's going to be available in geometrically enhanced carbon tube sets. looks like most every brand of bike on the market will soon have a full carbon offering. my understanding is the top of the line raleigh will be sporting the DA10spd with Mavic K's just like the 2004 Raleigh Team. expect the retail price to be about $3400.

[PaulE]

the new Ultegra better than the dog dish hub cap look of the ten speed Dura Ace's big ring. I guess they don't need a place to put "Shimano Ultegra" in one inch high lettering on the Ultegra big ring, since it won't be used by any pros!

[bostondrunk]

DBRK,
Actually, I havent really seen any slashing of 9 speed dura ace prices after the 10 speed was released...

[Sandy]

The sensibility of buying Dura-Ace 10 really has not been mentioned yet, as I see it. My Dura-Ace 9 is 12,13,14,15,17,19,21,24,27. The new Dura-Ace 10 is identical with the addition of a 16. So what? It is nice but it adds very little. It weighs a little less. So what? I could care less. It is more expensive, but not as much as most people think, and I can afford it. So what? I don't need or even want something to show off with. It is said that the crankset is stiffer, but who can really tell? Not me, not for sure.

So did I make a good choice? I think very much so. The Dura-Ace 10 is simply remarkably better than the Dura-Ace 9 or Ultegra 9. The braking is much stronger and acts in a very linear confident way. The ergonomics of the shifters/brakes is improved, and the rear shifting is much smoother, quieter, and even more precise, with a little less effort. The differences are felt each and every ride, throughout the entirety of the ride. The differences make the ride even more enjoyable, even for a slow recreational rider. So it is not the prestige, or the extra cog, or the fact it is the newest and showiest, it is simply considerably better that what existed before. BigMac and dbrk, try it if you have not already. Perhaps it is not worth it to you, but it is certainly an improvement.

In addition, the old design of the 9 speed shifters (Dura-Ace) was flawed and there were very significant failures in the shifters. The bb seemed to have its share of problems, also. So now I have a group that works considerably better all the time, each and every ride, and perhaps it will be better relative to maintenance and durability.

The new is certainly not always better than the old, as BigMac and dbrk often eloquently state. But you know guys, sometimes it may simply be better. Sooner or later improvements are made. All the best is not in the past.


Older and maybe a tiny bit better,


Sandy

[oracle]

very well said, sandy; an eloquent defense of the modern.

[Louis]

Sandy,

I agree, there may be other differences that make DA 10 better than DA 9, but most of the benefits/improvements you mention are not directly related to the number of cogs on the cassette...

I'll take stronger, more reliable, rear wheels with 9 speeds over weaker wheels with 10 speeds any day.

Louis

[ericmurphy]

Unless you are trying to spin at exactly 94.32 rpm with exactly a given force what’s the point? Just spin a bit faster or slower.

Do the manufacturers go to ever-increasing cogs because customers are asking for them, or for purely marketing “we have more gears than you do” reasons? I sure as heck don’t need that many. Do you? Why?

Louis

I'm riding 10-sp 12-25 DA, and I did a little experiment a while ago. I found that there was about a 10 RPM difference between cogs between about 12 MP and 35 MPH whether you're in the big ring or the little ring. Going from 102 RPM in a 39 X 16 to 93 RPM in a 39 X 17 means that 10 gears in back is not too many, at least to me.

The biggest drawback to 10-sp is that there's about a 3-gear difference between the big and the little ring. But since STI shifts down by three easily, and up by three without too much delay, I don't see it as any kind of major inconvenience.

[ericmurphy]

I'll take stronger, more reliable, rear wheels with 9 speeds over weaker wheels with 10 speeds any day.

Louis

Why would 10-sp wheels be weaker? The Cassette is almost exactly the same width. You can fit a 10-sp cassette on a 9-sp hub, so where would the difference in strength come from?

I broke an Ultegra freehub a few months ago. My LBS told me that when I upgraded to DA 10 I wouldn't have to worry about that particular failure mode, due to a revised freehub design that's stronger.

[Dekonick]

If you used Campy it wouldnt matter...

Actually, I think that we are all gonna be forced to upgrade eventually. I am giving in and going record 10 on my Hors. Cant help it! :D

[Louis]

Eric,

I just composed a longish reply which the system promptly lost.

Bottom line: I'd prefer a system that had 9 speeds but used the widths of the 10 speed system. That would give me a narrower cassette than either the existing 9 or 10 speed systems and allow you to have the drive side spokes at the hub farther from the center which would give you a stronger, more symmetric wheel that would stay true longer, all of which are benefits which in my opinion outweigh the dissadvantage of nine sprokets vs ten.

As far as RPMs go, I'm happy to spin anywhere from 90-100 and try not to be a slave to the cadence. I don't think a 10 rpm difference is that huge, but maybe that's me. I try to shoot for around 95, but will adjust if I have to.

Take care.

Louis

[dirtdigger88]

DA 10 is one of the best groups I have ever touched. I am going to bet that most of the people complaining about it have never ridden it. My riding partner rode my bike last week for the first time. He is still raving about the new DA. Not because the damn thing has another gear. (By the way why was 10 gears cool when Campy was the only one with it?) The new shape of the shifters works so much better for people with manly sized hands. The shifting is BETTER than anything I have ever used (yes I HAVE used Record). The new cranks, while some may not like their looks cannot deniy their function. I cant wait for Ultegra 10, I am going to put that on my Lemond.

Jason

[shinomaster]

Is that, as they keep improving the mid range groups like Ultegra and Xt parts the price keeps going up as well. So how much will Ultegra 10 cost? I hope it's still able to be afforded by young persons.
Can't they keep the prices the same? Pretty soon only the super rich will be able to get a decent bike.