FD clamp on versus braze on

[soulspinner]

Getting re-fit in January and will order a custom steel afterwards. Any reason to go braze on over band on for front der? Last 2 were braze on but I see many steel customs with normal range seat tube diameters with each.

[Pete Serotta]

The Serotta line uses nothing but banded at this time. The reasoning I heard a few years ago is that from a structure point of view it is preferred (not that brazed is bad). Additionally it allows you more adjustability
(possibly ) - although this is a mute point for most folks.

I would suggest that you ask your builder which he prefers.


Question is which do you like the looks of better also...


New frames are always nice to spec and order.....paying for them is always the painful part. :D

[Grant McLean]

The fact that you see both versions suggests there isn't a 'better' choice,
it's just a choice.

If you are likely to use a wide range of chainring sizes, the braze-on derailleur
may limit your choice, it only allows a small amount of vertical adjustment.
A 50 tooth outer for compact is about as small as you can go with the std
braze on location of the derailleur.

-g

[soulspinner]

Thank you Grant and Pete...

[Chris]

band on for sure. I had a Serotta CRL with a braze on. When it snapped, I had to send it back to New York to get fixed. Serotta was great and got it turned around as quick as possible, but it was tough not having the bike. Eliminating that design eliminated that concern...

[Grant McLean]

band on for sure. I had a Serotta CRL with a braze on. .... Eliminating that design eliminated that concern...

Not true.

There are plenty of ways to damage a seat tube with a clamp on band.
Especially these days, with many front derailleurs not being used with the
seat tube size specific size clamp. At our shop, we see all kinds of shims being
used that leave dents in the seat tube from over tightening the clamp.
There is absolutely no problem with a braze-on that is manufactured correctly.
Either design can be compromised by a bad mechanic.

-g

[Chris]

I think you mistook my statement. Eliminating the braze on, eliminated the concern for Serotta and their customers that the braze on would fail and create a hassle for the customer.

Now, blaming the design of the bike for poor mechanical/problem solving skills of the guy who built it is a whole different deal. If the wrong size clamp or amount of torque is used in putting the front derailleur on, then that is operator error as you allude to. That being said, I would much rather risk it that way, than risk having a part that isn't necessary fail.

In most cases, simpler is better.

[Grant McLean]

I think you mistook my statement. Eliminating the braze on, eliminated the concern for Serotta and their customers that the braze on would fail and create a hassle for the customer.

Now, blaming the design of the bike for poor mechanical/problem solving skills of the guy who built it is a whole different deal. If the wrong size clamp or amount of torque is used in putting the front derailleur on, then that is operator error as you allude to. That being said, I would much rather risk it that way, than risk having a part that isn't necessary fail.

In most cases, simpler is better.



Eliminating the braze on just substitutes one concern for another.
Neither design is better. I would argue the braze on is the simpler choice,
given my 25 years of shop mechanic experience. If i were having a steel
frame built, i'd choose the braze on, and it would be about number 100
on the list of things i'd worry about.

So maybe water bottle braze ons should be replaced with clamps too...





-g

[Blue Jays]

Both my recent titanium and carbon fiber bikes use a clamped front derailleur. My oldest steel frame also uses a clamped front derailleur.
From several discussions I've shared with Tom Kellogg & Jeff Duser in the past, it is the preferred method and is the format I will utilize for future builds as well.

[Grant McLean]

The funniest and most frustrating thing about the 'bike forum' is that people
feel the need to find a reason to justify one choice over the other.

It's OK people, you can make a decision and there won't be a negative outcome.
How many of these stupid shimano vs campy type threads have to go on before
people understand that there are different ways of doing things that are BOTH
just fine?

Richard Sachs uses braze ons, Serotta doesn't. Get over it.

Or we could take a poll of the whole cycling world and count up
the number of dented seat tubes with stress risers vs the number
of bent and broken braze ons? Does anyone care which one would win?

-g

[Chris]

You seem a little defensive there Grant. It is just a forum. I personally think it says something that companies that formally used the design have moved away from it. It's just my opinion. I wouldn't get so worked up over it. Unless of course I was the sole distributer of campy front deerailleur braze ons. You aren't are you?

[taz-t]

. I personally think it says something that companies that formally used the design have moved away from it. It's just my opinion. I wouldn't get so worked up over it.

Can you say 'cheaper to manufacture'? I wouldn't assume that leaving off the braze-on is a design decision based on functionality. I do know that it's more difficult to find 28.6 derailleurs than it is braze ons. Yes, I know there are adapters - I've used them. Not my first choice though. atmo, imho and so on.

-taz

[BdaGhisallo]

Clamp! 'Nuf said!

[Blue Jays]

taz-t, at the custom frameset level the cost of a braze-on vs. clamped front derailleur isn't truly a factor. The builder can provide whichever the customer desires and simply provides guidance one way or the other.

[merckx]

The funniest and most frustrating thing about the 'bike forum' is that people
feel the need to find a reason to justify one choice over the other.

It's OK people, you can make a decision and there won't be a negative outcome.
How many of these stupid shimano vs campy type threads have to go on before
people understand that there are different ways of doing things that are BOTH
just fine?

Richard Sachs uses braze ons, Serotta doesn't. Get over it.

Or we could take a poll of the whole cycling world and count up
the number of dented seat tubes with stress risers vs the number
of bent and broken braze ons? Does anyone care which one would win?

-g

What he said.

[Cinci Jim]

taz-t, at the custom frameset level the cost of a braze-on vs. clamped front derailleur isn't truly a factor. The builder can provide whichever the customer desires and simply provides guidance one way or the other.

I disagree. Cost is cost. Any manufacturing step can be screwed up with resulting scrap or rework, which is cost. Braze ons require prep prior to paint - more cost.

A plain seat tube has none of these issues. I woulld think the smart custom frame builder would make the standard clamp on and if the customer want the braze on they will ask.

atmo...

[stevep]

shakespeare wrote a play about this very topic.


" much ado about nothing.."

e-richies great, great, great grandfather is in it...
he brazed spears for his majestys guards...

actual quote..
"these wont be ready until 1521... the tubing just arrived from toledo, call me on my other line next time... this line is my dial up line...the thing really runs slow...
and i know the freakin armada is coming but do you want these in a hurry or do you want them done right?"

[musgravecycles]

Something no one else has mentioned yet: for those of us who's taste's tend to lean towards custom steel, 28.6 clamp-ons are getting harder and harder to find. Campagnolo already quite making them (though I believe Richard has a stash of conversion clamps), who knows how long it'll be before Shimano does the same. I haven't asked him specifically but I'd be willing to bet that Richard is selling a lot of his braze-on mounts to builders these days...

Oh, and give Grant a break, he's one of the good guys...

[Ray]

If you use real standard gearing, it don't matter. There are pros and cons to each that everyone else has already elucidated well enough.

But if you use weird non-standard gearing, there are significant pros to the clamp on and cons to the braze on. With the braze on, you get a little teeensy bit of up and down adjustability. Although, in my experience, not enough to go compensate for a compact gearing setup - I'd guess with the increase in popularity of compact, todays braze ons may do a better job of accounting for this. And in a custom rig, it certainly can be taken into account. But even if you get that taken care of, there's still no lateral adjustability. Again, probably not an issue for everyone. But with my wierd combination of doubles and triples and compact triples and very low Q cranks, etc, I often find the need to twist the clamp around to the sweet spot where everything shifts right AND the right crank doesn't hit the tail end of the derailure cage when in the big ring. With a braze on, you literally have to bend the cage. With the clamp on, its a much easier adjustment.

So, for my purposes, I go with clamp on every time. I've had one bike with braze on and it wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do with the gearing. Never had that problem with clamp on. I still end up buying braze on derailures and the right size clamp, but that's as good as a true clamp on in my world. Better, because you can use the same derailure on different bikes with different size seat tubes by just buying a new $5-$10 adapter.

-Ray

[RPS]

The funniest and most frustrating thing about the 'bike forum' is that people
feel the need to find a reason to justify one choice over the other.

It's OK people, you can make a decision and there won't be a negative outcome.
How many of these stupid shimano vs campy type threads have to go on before
people understand that there are different ways of doing things that are BOTH
just fine?

Richard Sachs uses braze ons, Serotta doesn't. Get over it.

Or we could take a poll of the whole cycling world and count up
the number of dented seat tubes with stress risers vs the number
of bent and broken braze ons? Does anyone care which one would win?

-gNicely stated Grant.

The only concern I'd have with braze-on (assuming I wasn't changing chainring sizes) is if I planned on very thin light-weight tubing. If so, I'd consider a clamp. Appearance wise I prefer the cleaner lines of braze-ons.

[BdaGhisallo]

Also, factor in that if you go with a clamp on fr derr, you never have to worry about the builder messing up the placement of the braze on. I bought a Colnago C-40 back in '98 and the fr derr braze on tab was so badly placed that I couldn't get the fr derr cage parallel with the chain! The tab was rotated around the seattube towards the front so that the fr derr cage, at the limit of the braze on tab's range, was pointing somewhere towards the right pedal when the R crank was in the 9 o'clock position!!!

That put me off Colnagos and boutique Euro brand frames for life!!!

[taz-t]

taz-t, at the custom frameset level the cost of a braze-on vs. clamped front derailleur isn't truly a factor. The builder can provide whichever the customer desires and simply provides guidance one way or the other.

right... i don't think of "companies" when I think of custom frames though.

- taz

[fiamme red]

A 50 tooth outer for compact is about as small as you can go with the std
braze on location of the derailleur.

-gI have a braze-on front derailleur on my Merckx, currently running a Chorus 10 53/39 (13-26 in the rear). I've been thinking of changing the large ring to a 50t (keeping the 39t inner ring). So if I do that, the shifting won't suffer?

[e-RICHIE]

I have a braze-on front derailleur on my Merckx, currently running a Chorus 10 53/39 (13-26 in the rear). I've been thinking of changing the large ring to a 50t (keeping the 39t inner ring). So if I do that, the shifting won't suffer?
if you do that it's likely that the mech will be
hanging from the bottom of the b.o. tab atmo.

braze-ons are only the enemy if they are installed
improperly, as in - after the frame is built atmo.

and it's true - i did but campagnolo vicenza's last
remaining inventory of clamp-ons that fit 28.6 atmo.

[sailorboy]

Ask your builder: When my Vanilla was built I mentioned that I wanted the flexibility to use compact or standard craks and Sacha said the braze-on he uses can accomodate both since it is a bit bigger and has a longer hole for vertical adjustment. Makes for a nicer looking finished product IMO. Your builder should be able to use the same type of braze-on I would imagine.

[e-RICHIE]

it is a bit bigger and has a longer hole for vertical adjustment.
atmo - (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1303/749293881_0b56c519ef.jpg)

[Jack Brunk]

Ask your builder: When my Vanilla was built I mentioned that I wanted the flexibility to use compact or standard craks and Sacha said the braze-on he uses can accomodate both since it is a bit bigger and has a longer hole for vertical adjustment. Makes for a nicer looking finished product IMO. Your builder should be able to use the same type of braze-on I would imagine.
I agree with Sailorboy on this one. Most of my frames have braze ons and i've never had a problem with one ever. Let the builder decide what to use.

[DarrenCT]

Ask your builder: When my Vanilla was built I mentioned that I wanted the flexibility to use compact or standard craks and Sacha said the braze-on he uses can accomodate both since it is a bit bigger and has a longer hole for vertical adjustment. Makes for a nicer looking finished product IMO. Your builder should be able to use the same type of braze-on I would imagine.

EXACTLY

good call sailor