Why Carbon

[Eyorerox]

Hi I'm new to this forum, Serotta is an established manufacturer of titanium bikes. Just wondering why all carbon now?, why Serotta for carbon bikes? as opposed to any other company. Does Serotta have more experience in carbon manufacture than any one else. Has carbon technology changed to such an extent that titanium is no longer the wunder material?

[David Kirk]

You're new here aren't you?

What do you think?


Dave

[Blue Jays]

Eyorerox, there are beautiful bicycles crafted from aluminum, bamboo, carbon, steel, and titanium (among other materials) that are wonderful to behold and ride.

[Steve Hampsten]

gotta give props to the man: no time was wasted

[Smiley]

Dude , in business U gotta go with the flow or be left behind. No Carbone for this consumer :banana:

[J.Greene]

I believe Serotta has defined itself as a company willing to innovate, and that is nothing new or newsworthy.

JG

[SoCalSteve]

Hi I'm new to this forum, Serotta is an established manufacturer of titanium bikes. Just wondering why all carbon now?, why Serotta for carbon bikes? as opposed to any other company. Does Serotta have more experience in carbon manufacture than any one else. Has carbon technology changed to such an extent that titanium is no longer the wunder material?

Steel as well, before titanium and carbon.

Just sayin'

Steve

[hansolo758]

Hi I'm new to this forum, Serotta is an established manufacturer of titanium bikes. Just wondering why all carbon now?, why Serotta for carbon bikes? as opposed to any other company. Does Serotta have more experience in carbon manufacture than any one else. Has carbon technology changed to such an extent that titanium is no longer the wunder material?


If the responses to your question have been ho-hum, it's because the subject has been discussed a lot -- sometimes rancorously (yes, that's a word, I checked). If your question is serious, a brief response from an industry outsider like me would be:

1. Carbon is "in" right now, in no small part due to someone having won 7 consecutive Tours de France on a carbon bike.

2. No bike company can afford not to be a player in this market. Artisan frame shops, who cater to a niche market, are different.

3. Carbon certainly has some things going for it: Light weight, the ability to "tune" the ride for comfort and stiffness if you do it right, and the ability to shape tubes in a way you often cannot with metals. Carbon has a certain esthetic that some folks like, especially when combined with carbon wheels, components and accessories.

4. Does any of this really matter to most riders? Probably not. Materials are not as important as good fit. An experienced framebuilder working in his or her chosen medium can make a frame with the ride characteristics you are looking for. Mass market carbon frames made to a certain price point will not incorporate all the alleged advantages of carbon.

5. Serotta has chosen to make carbon frames to be a player in the market. Its carbon frames are made to attempt to give its customers a certain ride quality and esthetic associated with the brand.

6. Once you try to get into what are the advantages of one carbon frame over another, well, you get into the realm of the subjective. How strongly you might hold your opinions in the absence of objective data is up to you but there is a certain point beyond which further discussion doesn't help. A good many of us are at that point now, which explains the responses you're getting.

[Chris]

I've been thinking about this some lately, at least in a tangential manner. A buddy of mine wasted his Colnago when his derailleur twisted and broke the carbon seatstay. Now he is kind of on the hunt for a new kewl bike. I know that carbon is all the rage, but when you look at the prices, there is something going on there. The value isn't there IMHO. If you want the newest hottest thing, yes you have to pay for that. I just got back from standing in line for 2.5 hours before Best Buy opens to get my kids a Wii, so I am not immune from doing irrational things. My point is though, that when you look at what can be done with other tubing, it just doesn't equate to me that carbon should be nearly twice as much for a comparable product, no matter who makes it. I think that you just have to sit back and say, "I am paying this price, not just because the bike will be twice what I can buy in titanium, aluminum, steel, or flax seed, but because China, the airline industry and the boating industry are using this stuff more than they ever have." In a lot of ways it comes down to supply and demand of the raw material and not of the bike itself that is making this product so much more. You don't always get what you pay for...

Just some thoughts out of left field.

[RudAwkning]

I've been thinking about this some lately, at least in a tangential manner. A buddy of mine wasted his Colnago when his derailleur twisted and broke the carbon seatstay. Now he is kind of on the hunt for a new kewl bike. I know that carbon is all the rage, but when you look at the prices, there is something going on there. The value isn't there IMHO. If you want the newest hottest thing, yes you have to pay for that. I just got back from standing in line for 2.5 hours before Best Buy opens to get my kids a Wii, so I am not immune from doing irrational things. My point is though, that when you look at what can be done with other tubing, it just doesn't equate to me that carbon should be nearly twice as much for a comparable product, no matter who makes it. I think that you just have to sit back and say, "I am paying this price, not just because the bike will be twice what I can buy in titanium, aluminum, steel, or flax seed, but because China, the airline industry and the boating industry are using this stuff more than they ever have." In a lot of ways it comes down to supply and demand of the raw material and not of the bike itself that is making this product so much more. You don't always get what you pay for...

Just some thoughts out of left field.

The pro/elite field dictates the market. For all out performace, carbon fiber is "it". Light and stiff. That's all any professional racer wants out of a bike on race day. Fortunately for them, they don't have to pay 5K for a frame and if the DO crash one, they don't have to worry about whether there may or may not be a crack in the material they can't see. They don't have to wonder if the thing will spontaneously implode beneath them one day when they hit a pothole because of said crash 9 months back. They simply get a new one for free.

Mere mortals like ourselves are not so priveleged.

That being said, carbon fiber definitely has a place in the market. You can do some interesting things with it that you can't do with "metal". It's super light, you can make the bottom brackets crazy rigid (for TT and Track it's a big plus), etc.

see the attached image for the possibilities of Carbon.

Every material has it's pitfalls. And at the end of the day, carbon fiber is "plastic". Sturdy plastic, but plastic all the same. I'm reminded of this everytime I cut a carbon steerer tube with a file in less than a minute. Takes a good 3-5 minutes to cut a steel steerer with a friggin' hacksaw.

[swoop]

thankfully a bike is more than the material its made of... so really.. why not?
i think of all things.. the material as the end point is the last thing i think about when i'm bike thinkin'.

there's a 2 out here i've seen on a calfee bamboo.... racing the crap outta that thing. so i think the question isn't why but what. as in what are they doing with the material....



regarding racing'.... if the stars align and even though i'm not racing next year (that just means not killing myself in endless crits).. i'll for sure do all the road races if i can get on a speedvagen.. its why i'm starving myself to death right now... and if i blow the application i'm trying to bribe a friend out of erichies line.

them are steel... and steel is freaking exotic to me.


regarding the comment about cutting carbon steerers.... some cut like butter but some take work. i was mazed at how much work it was to cut through the steer that came on the seven. clearly they were using the good stuff.

people tend to think as all carbon as being the same... and boy.. it really is not all the same.

[e-RICHIE]

The pro/elite field dictates the market.
as does ease of manufacture and labor rates.
you can win a race on almost anything atmo.

[A.L.Breguet]

...you can win a race on almost anything atmo.
+1 billion, atmo.

[Tobias]

You're new here aren't you?

What do you think?


Dave
gotta give props to the man: no time was wasted
Which thread is this a continuation of?

[Bill Bove]

Because I am a carbon based life form I desire a carbon frame.

I really want it to be cool like all the other cool kids. Position and fit mean more to me than materiels and weight.

[Pete Serotta]

Welcome to the forum.....or the "nut house" as we sometimes call it..... :rolleyes:

Serotta does make Ti, Steel, and CARBON frames. As many have mentioned here, the material is only one part of the equation. Fit, design, mft are as much i,f not more important, than material.

AS e-richie said - - cost and mft are cheap in the far east and LOTS of carbon comes out of there. ;)

Also not not all carbon or even ti is created equal. Carbon from one mft can cost many times more than from the far east. SEROTTA makes their own forks and tubes in house. SEE WHY SEROTTA AT TOP OF FORUM,

Just a Smiley said "every mft needs to have carbon offerings", That is the rage now -- see what TDF was won on. ;) Yeah the sponsors make carbon frames.

Ti is still a great material as is steel....looks at the offerings of SEROTTA, HAMPSTEN, MOOTS, etc.....

Steel is still a wonderful material - -none better that SACHS, KIRK, KELLOGG, GOODRICH, etc....


Get a frame that fits and that puts a smile on your face. I assure you that you will never lose a race because of the material of the frame. (no I am not a racer and will go down as a turtle is the pace line ) BUT i Know many SMART people and sometimes listen well.


Naturally you cannot do better than a SEROTTA Ti BUT THEN I am a little biased.... :cool: :cool:



Hi I'm new to this forum, Serotta is an established manufacturer of titanium bikes. Just wondering why all carbon now?, why Serotta for carbon bikes? as opposed to any other company. Does Serotta have more experience in carbon manufacture than any one else. Has carbon technology changed to such an extent that titanium is no longer the wunder material?

[RudAwkning]

as does ease of manufacture and labor rates.
you can win a race on almost anything atmo.

I guess I should have said "market" instead of "field" as it's the manufacturers and sponors who actually choose what the pros ride :)

Sort of off topic but on topic is a trend I've been noticing as I've been riding with more racer types (I'm still just a club rider). A lot of guys who race their high end Looks, Times, Cannondales, etc will opt to ride steel rigs on non-race rides. A good friend of mine spent just as much on a custom Indy Fab steel frame as he did on his Look 595. Another guy has his one "race" bike but the other 3 are all Rivendells. They'll tell me, "oh, I'd definitely go faster on my [carbon fiber brand] frame, but I just love the feel of steel". It's mainly the older or higher Category guys doing this. The younger kids still seem to ride around exclusively on the same bike(s) they race on.

My buddy, whose Indy Fab probably only weigs 1 1/2 lbs more than his Look, says that his IF is his hands down favorite bike but that he'd never race it. He'd only race the Look or Pinarello because they're "faster". As a non racer, I can only speculate that it's the psychological edge of riding your "fastest, lightest, raciest" bike over racing the bike you "love the most".

Just an interesting observation from a non racer.

[Peter P.]

Hi I'm new to this forum, Serotta is an established manufacturer of titanium bikes. Just wondering why all carbon now?, why Serotta for carbon bikes? as opposed to any other company. Does Serotta have more experience in carbon manufacture than any one else. Has carbon technology changed to such an extent that titanium is no longer the wunder material?

Carbon is the favorite child of the market because you can change the shape/ look of the frame in an infinite number of ways then justify and market it with advertising rationale that it is better than what was the best, last year.

Why Serotta? They offer a lifetime warranty. They're in the same country as you, so if you need warranty service, you'll speak the same language. They offer fitting services at numerous shops throughout the country. Their prices compete favorably with the reputable Italian and French brands. They offer customized paint finishes so you can individualize your frame and make the world a prettier place.


Does Serotta have more experience... well, they have a LOT of experience in ALL materials, so they know FRAME manufacturing. They're too big of a company to shortchange themselves AND their customers with regard to building a durable, quality product-the reputation of the entire company rests on it.

See the first paragraph to see why carbon has replaced titanium in the market. Titanium is just fine. In some ways it's better than carbon because you don't have to worry about galvanic action causing joint failures, and it's more crash resistant.

[Ti Designs]

The pro/elite field dictates the market.

Sheep with credit cards... Quick question, if there were a wait list for a carbon frame, say about 6 years, which carbon frame would you order?

[e-RICHIE]

Sheep with credit cards...
that could describe all of us atmo -
these are really self-indulgances at the core, no?
like i really needed my 3 hurlows and the nagasawa.
Quick question, if there were a wait list for a carbon frame, say about 6 years, which carbon frame would you order?
would an expert fitter be part of the equation?

[Ti Designs]

would an expert fitter be part of the equation?

Which changes more over 6 years, the human body or the state of the art in carbon fiber? Both make the point that carbon frames are a short term purchase. Any 6 year old carbon frame on the roads these days is too new to be a collectors item, too old to be anything by today's standards. By comparison a customer of mine owns Legend serial #0001 and at a glance it could be mistaken for a new bike.

[e-RICHIE]

Which changes more over 6 years, the human body or the state of the art in carbon fiber?
despite the question, that client would
still be a sheep with a credit card atmo?

[Ti Designs]

despite the question, that client would
still be a sheep with a credit card atmo?

That only gets answered if you took away all marketing forces. If they took away the propeloton and the glossy bike porn, would they still buy that bike? The answer comes down to their decision making process. Was it a well thought out series of likes or dislikes about the bike, or was it simply "well he uses it and he won two classics so...". One is sheep-like the other is rare.

[vaxn8r]

If the responses to your question have been ho-hum, it's because the subject has been discussed a lot -- sometimes rancorously (yes, that's a word, I checked). If your question is serious, a brief response from an industry outsider like me would be:

1. Carbon is "in" right now, in no small part due to someone having won 7 consecutive Tours de France on a carbon bike.

2. No bike company can afford not to be a player in this market. Artisan frame shops, who cater to a niche market, are different.

3. Carbon certainly has some things going for it: Light weight, the ability to "tune" the ride for comfort and stiffness if you do it right, and the ability to shape tubes in a way you often cannot with metals. Carbon has a certain esthetic that some folks like, especially when combined with carbon wheels, components and accessories.

4. Does any of this really matter to most riders? Probably not. Materials are not as important as good fit. An experienced framebuilder working in his or her chosen medium can make a frame with the ride characteristics you are looking for. Mass market carbon frames made to a certain price point will not incorporate all the alleged advantages of carbon.

5. Serotta has chosen to make carbon frames to be a player in the market. Its carbon frames are made to attempt to give its customers a certain ride quality and esthetic associated with the brand.

6. Once you try to get into what are the advantages of one carbon frame over another, well, you get into the realm of the subjective. How strongly you might hold your opinions in the absence of objective data is up to you but there is a certain point beyond which further discussion doesn't help. A good many of us are at that point now, which explains the responses you're getting.
Well said...the captain gets it!

[deanster]

Carbon for high end bikes is a pretty good material...good and expensive. For the run of the mill bike world carbon can be manufactured by a relatively inexpensive process and a low wage worker that is trained how to do the layups fast. Carbon can hide a multitude of sins in manufacturing of low end bikes. I look at my experience in building fiberglass boats and realizing the vast difference in quaity of different layups based on the quality of the worker (the best were highly paid).
Like all bike materials the ride of different bikes can vary widely. No single sweeping generalization can be made other than...you get what you pay for and try any bike for a minimum of 50 miles before you fork over your hard earned money. Your butt will tell you if it is a good ride...or not.
I recently went back to a highend Columbus steel road bike from a stint with carbon and Ti/carbon, because I like the ride of a steel bike on long distances. The bike with a steel fork and Campy record group is only 17.8 lbs which ain't bad. My steel bike is a Mondonico Daimond Extra Columbus Neuron tubing with lugs. I have built up a number of Serotta steel bikes for friends and love the serotta steel bikes. Serotta frames are among the best.

[Your_Friend!]

Eyorerox!




What About

Winnie And Tiger?

And Piglet!





Love Y_F!

[DarrenCT]

Eyorerox!
What About

Winnie And Tiger?

And Piglet!
Love Y_F!

Piglet is very busy!

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5097/pigletbeerjpgcg7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Eyorerox]

Thanks for the feed back
I was looking at Serotta because I wanted a Titanium or steel bike and was a little surprised to find on the web site that Serotta do not seem to offer an all titanium bike. I live in New Zealand. I am not a racer so do not need the latest TDF Stead but rather a comfortable long distance bike something like an Aston Martin as opposed to a Ferrari, of course the engine on the bike is more like a Vespa.

[DarrenCT]

check

http://serotta.com/road/compare.html

you can get a legend w/ titanium stays and a carbon fork.

its all ti 'cept the fork.

i've had one and its top notch. definitely a long distance bike. i'd go for it.

[DarrenCT]

someone like....

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6395/serottasw5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

very very slick and pro

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9504/0171fn6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[kerrycycle]

Serotta can build pretty much anything you want and paint it the way you want it. Believe me, you will like the end result no matter what you choose.