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View Full Version : Durability Poll: Campagnolo vs. Shimano - Experiences Wanted


handsomerob
12-01-2007, 12:22 PM
Well Big Dan's post in my G thing thread got me thinking. I have seen more Campy vs. Shimano threads than I care to count, but I don't know if I have ever seen an objective durability poll. This poll has nothing to do with ergonomics, aesthetics, or loyalty. I am just curious as to what the usable life is for a shifter.

William
12-01-2007, 12:32 PM
Well, I can't coment on Campy durability (other then tiny hoods), but I've got a DA STI 8 group that is still alive and works flawlessly after 12 years or so of racing and constant training use. It just won't die.



William

Big Dan
12-01-2007, 12:38 PM
Same recycled argument. This feels more like RBR everyday. It's a shame.

:(

handsomerob
12-01-2007, 12:40 PM
Well, I can't coment on Campy durability (other then tiny hoods), but I've got a DA STI 8 group that is still alive and works flawlessly after 12 years or so of racing and constant training use. It just won't die.



William

Other than running into the occasional DT shifter rider, I am usually the only one out riding 8 speed bits, so it's good to know I am not alone ;) . I don't want to complicate the poll, but I wonder if there is an appreciable difference in the durability of 8 vs. 9 vs. 10 speed shifters, so comments like this are nice to have.

FYI, I can't vote on either manufacturers durability because I have yet to personally put 10000 miles into a single set of shifters or have one fail on me. (I have only been riding about 2 years)

handsomerob
12-01-2007, 12:48 PM
Same recycled argument. This feels more like RBR everyday. It's a shame.

:(

I don't think that an objective poll can be a "recycled argument".

It isn't an argument at all really, because it isn't an opinion poll. I only wanted to determine the usable lifetime difference in the parts.

William
12-01-2007, 12:50 PM
Btw, I clicked on the wrong one. Greater then 20 by far.


William

spiderman
12-01-2007, 12:52 PM
i'm told the reason my campy record
is doing so well compared to the da i wore out so quickly
is that since riding fixed
i no longer shift as much!

Pete Serotta
12-01-2007, 12:53 PM
Folks ride in different conditions and treat their equiptment differently, I know folks that have rebuilt, replaced things and short of an accident, have never had to rebuild replace a lever. Miles and use are big on how long something last.



I don't think that an objective poll can be a "recycled argument".

It isn't an argument at all really, because it isn't an opinion poll. I only wanted to determine the usable lifetime difference in the parts.

GregL
12-01-2007, 01:16 PM
Original (non-Flight Deck) DA-7700 STI levers, c1998. Estimated 15K+ miles. Still work like new. They've hit the deck at least three times by my count. Replaced the cosmetic front caps (easily and inexpensively available from Shimano), polished out the worst of the scratches, and then out for some more miles.

Regards,
Greg

handsomerob
12-01-2007, 01:18 PM
Folks ride in different conditions and treat their equiptment differently, I know folks that have rebuilt, replaced things and short of an accident, have never had to rebuild replace a lever. Miles and use are big on how long something last.

I agree with you, but conditions of use shouldn't be brand specific. I guess the results could be skewed if one brand was only used in dry weather and another in wet, but with enough data, the results should be valid (just like vehicle durability reports).

handsomerob
12-01-2007, 01:22 PM
Btw, I clicked on the wrong one. Greater then 20 by far.


William

Since there are folks that have both or more than one set, I set up the poll to accept multiple answers... i.e. if someone got 10000 miles out of one Shimano shifter and 20000 miles from another and less than 10000 out of a Campy shifter, they could click 3 different options.

Fixed
12-01-2007, 03:51 PM
bro 7400 and super rec , still goin cheers imho :beer:

Ray
12-01-2007, 03:58 PM
I've only had one set of Campy shifters. They needed springs replaced every couple of years or so. They'll theoretically last forever, but were a PIA to deal with. I have a couple sets of DA nine-speed levers that have been going strong for years and years and years and year and, you get the idea. I think the bottom line is that both of them will last a LOOOOOOOONG time, but Campy may require more attention during that time and may have an ultimately longer life as well. But at this rate of success, who cares? I ultimately have stuck with Shimano because of greater flexibility of mixing mtb and road components, not feel or durability or aesthetics or even ergonomics, which are all so close to a wash as to not matter to me.

-Ray

Dave
12-01-2007, 03:59 PM
This is kind of a silly question since Campy shifters can be rebuilt many times. The materials used for the G-springs and the index gear are unlikely to have changed much over the years, but there have been some other changes to reduce internal friction and make the lever action lighter.

With regard to your 8 speed shifters, I think you'll find the parts harder to get all the time. Branford no longer seems to list any parts specifically for 8 speed ergo levers. The shape of the 8 speed ergo lever body isn't nearly as comfortable as later models, IMO.

Anyone who understands the inner workings will also realize that a Campy right shifter is bound to require a minor overhaul (just G-springs) in 10-15,000 miles. Of course this all depends on how much shifting you do. I bought 4 springs, good for two rebuilds, for $12. It's not very hard to take an ergo lever apart for this minor overhaul, but it's best done when you're changing cables and have the bar tape off anyway.

The initial cost is also quite different, with Campy being far cheaper. If you can't perform the required maintenance on your own, then eventually a
Campy ergo lever might cost as much as Shimano.

Most users pick one over the other because they like the way the shifter works, or it fits their hands better. I like Campy for the shorter reach to the brake hoods, the multiple shifts to smaller cogs with the thumb button and the superior control of a triple FD.

Longevity has never been one of my concerns riding 5,000 miles or less per year. I used 8 speed from '95-'96, switched to 9 speed in '97 and 10 speed in 2000. I never kept anything long enough to wear it out (other than chains). After 8 seasons on 10 speed, I've still sold bikes often enough that I've never worn out an ergo lever. A couple of years ago, I took my first one apart, just to see what made it tick. I used instructions I downloaded from various websites and eventually wrote my own instuctions to rectify the mistakes and omissions I found. This year, I scuffed up a pair of levers pretty badly in a wreck and decided to rebuild them as spares. My Record Ultra levers are now "no-name" models. A lot of the lettering was scuffed up, so I sanded off the remaining lettering and gave the brake levers several coats of clear lacquer to make them look nearly new.

William
12-01-2007, 04:00 PM
Since there are folks that have both or more than one set, I set up the poll to accept multiple answers... i.e. if someone got 10000 miles out of one Shimano shifter and 20000 miles from another and less than 10000 out of a Campy shifter, they could click 3 different options.

It appears after your initial vote you can't go back and click on other options.

Oh well, my bad. ;)


William

maunahaole
12-01-2007, 04:23 PM
My main criticism of the campy stuff is that it needs to be a little more corrosion resistant. I locked up one of my ergo shifters pretty well a while back, due to a combination of our local salt air and the amount of sweat that ran into the shifter. Any advice from the collective as far as what the good way to go is on lubing the "mouse ear"?

zap
12-01-2007, 04:29 PM
When in Europe and in need of a shifter part, what are you going to find.

Campagnolo.

Dave
12-01-2007, 05:30 PM
My main criticism of the campy stuff is that it needs to be a little more corrosion resistant. I locked up one of my ergo shifters pretty well a while back, due to a combination of our local salt air and the amount of sweat that ran into the shifter. Any advice from the collective as far as what the good way to go is on lubing the "mouse ear"?

To lube just the mouse ear rachet, take the brake hood off, hang the bike from the rear wheel and apply a few drops of any decent oil. I like Slick 50 1-lube.

There's also a hole in the top of the ergo lever body (not the ergo brain button hole) that will allow lube to reach this area. When you have the brake hood off, you should see three holes in the top, in addition to the band clamp nut.

Don't use very much oil, or it will run into the bar tape later. If your conditions are that severe, then an annual removal of the lever for some more serious lubing might be wise.

DarrenCT
12-01-2007, 09:01 PM
my opinion:

just ride the heck out of whatever and replace / fix it when it doesnt work.

besides whats a couple hundred bucks when you've used something for a few thousands miles

Elefantino
12-02-2007, 03:11 AM
my opinion:

just ride the heck out of whatever and replace / fix it when it doesnt work.

besides whats a couple hundred bucks when you've used something for a few thousands miles
All heed the voice of sanity.

I think the "this brand vs. that brand" is best left to NASCAR. Yeehaw.

Blue Jays
12-02-2007, 04:03 AM
DarrenCT, we agree on principle with regard to component replacement after a reasonable amount of time/mileage on the bicycle.
At the same time, if applying lubrication four times per year will ensure thousands more trouble-free miles, I'm certainly a proponent of that preventative maintenance.

That said, I have bicycles from the 1980's (as the original owner) built with Campagnolo Nuovo Record and subsequently Campagnolo Super Record that are perfectly serviceable today.

Andreas
12-02-2007, 04:49 AM
When in Europe and in need of a shifter part, what are you going to find.

Campagnolo.


That's too funny :p
Actually, could happen may be in Vincenza.

Just get out there and ride, who cares if it is one or the other.

soulspinner
12-02-2007, 06:27 AM
What happens when in Japan with my Campy? I voted 10- 15k on my Campy but that was a shifter rebuild. It seems to shift as well or better than ever. Doesnt matter what ya ride, matters ya get yer a@@ out there...

Mud
12-02-2007, 10:24 AM
I keep them lubed/clean, use the lube that everyone loves from the guy in Texas and they still stretch out in a hurry. I have used both Dura Ace and Ultegra. Insofar as the shifters, my wife's 10 speed Record (right) has been in after 6000 miles-spring.

Dave
12-02-2007, 10:35 AM
I keep them lubed/clean, use the lube that everyone loves from the guy in Texas and they still stretch out in a hurry. I have used both Dura Ace and Ultegra. Insofar as the shifters, my wife's 10 speed Record (right) has been in after 6000 miles-spring.

Shimano chains have soft pins (and/or inner sideplates) which causes rapid elongation. A Campy chain will elongate at a fraction of that rate. Neither is immune to roller wear, so Shimano chains expire about twice as fast due to elongation, while a Campy chain's life is eventually limited by roller and side plate wear, even though the overall length is still good.

Pete Serotta
12-02-2007, 11:26 AM
I agree with you, but conditions of use shouldn't be brand specific. I guess the results could be skewed if one brand was only used in dry weather and another in wet, but with enough data, the results should be valid (just like vehicle durability reports).

Sounds logical - Sounds like study for "numbers". Mr Flydhest is needed....

handsomerob
12-02-2007, 11:45 AM
I really appreciate everyone's votes and I apologize for any ruffled feathers, but I think the results of the poll are pretty interesting and a bit ironic. After 51 votes there appears to be no significant difference in durability between the brands. :argue:

Also, it would appear that regardless of brand, 90%+ of riders get at least 10000 miles out of their shifters and less than 20% of riders have had a failure before 20000 miles. Doesn't seem like you can make a "bad" choice either way when it comes to durability. Keep the rubber side down everyone and ride what makes you happy. ;)

Campagnolo: <10000 3 5.88%
Campagnolo: >10000 but <20000 4 7.84%
Campagnolo: >20000 7 13.73%
Campagnolo: 10000+ and still counting 15 29.41%
Shimano: <10000 4 7.84%
Shimano: >10000 but <20000 5 9.80%
Shimano: >20000 4 7.84%
Shimano: 10000+ and still counting 15 29.41%

gdw
12-02-2007, 12:07 PM
I've used a set of 8 speed first generation Attack grip shifters for over 20,000 miles and they are still going strong. Relaible in all kinds of rotten conditions. In a couple years Sram will have their road components dialed and Shimano and Campy are going to be hurting. :D

Dave
12-02-2007, 12:24 PM
I've used a set of 8 speed first generation Attack grip shifters for over 20,000 miles and they are still going strong. Relaible in all kinds of rotten conditions. In a couple years Sram will have their road components dialed and Shimano and Campy are going to be hurting. :D

Nothing wrong with your optimism for SRAM's future, but at the start, they produced a product that costs more than any other brand by a wide margin, had little FD trim and can't operate a triple FD. The new SRAM red shifters are an improvement, but there's still no triple option and the levers cost about twice as much as Campy, so they better be good.

http://www.ebikestop.com/items/004-LD4502

Campy's ergo levers have undergone minor changes over the years to enhance durability and create a lighter shifting action, but they've always had FD trim capability and all models can operate a triple FD. None of the competitors comes close in price.

http://txcyclesport.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=CA-REL-QS-WC

http://txcyclesport.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CA-CEL-QS&Category_Code=SH_road_shifters

soulspinner
12-02-2007, 04:44 PM
Has SRAM fixed the finish peeling problems on their force group?

HSG Racer
12-02-2007, 05:24 PM
Durability can be measured in lots of ways. One thing that I have always admired about Shimano is their decision to use titanium instead of carbon to lighten their components. Campy has chosen to use carbon in their components. Although, Shimano appears to be on the verge of switching to carbon and that's unfortunate IMO.

In my experience, Campy is just not on par with Shimano in terms of durability and smooth shifting. That being said, Campy makes absolutely fantastic wheels and hubs. The best in the industry IMO. I have a set of Campy Eurus and Fulcrum Racing 1 wheels and it doesn't get any sweeter when it comes to wheelsets.

:D

Dave
12-02-2007, 05:40 PM
Durability can be measured in lots of ways. One thing that I have always admired about Shimano is their decision to use titanium instead of carbon to lighten their components. Campy has chosen to use carbon in their components. Although, Shimano appears to be on the verge of switching to carbon and that's unfortunate IMO.

In my experience, Campy is just not on par with Shimano in terms of durability and smooth shifting. That being said, Campy makes absolutely fantastic wheels and hubs. The best in the industry IMO. I have a set of Campy Eurus and Fulcrum Racing 1 wheels and it doesn't get any sweeter when it comes to wheelsets.

:D

Did you happen to mean aluminum instead of carbon? Neither uses much Ti, since it's usually a replacement for steel.

I'm curious about which specific Shimano parts you think are more durable than Campy. It's been established that ergo levers will usually need some repair before an STI lever craps out, but at least they can be repaired without too much trouble or expense.

Shimano's chains are an example of very poor durability. Both are known for excellent hubs, although Campy's have also been lighter for the last 10 years. Shimano finally caught up in the weight game with the new 7850 hub.

Big Dan
12-02-2007, 06:02 PM
Did you happen to mean aluminum instead of carbon? Neither uses much Ti, since it's usually a replacement for steel.

I'm curious about which specific Shimano parts you think are more durable than Campy. It's been established that ergo levers will usually need some repair before an STI lever craps out, but at least they can be repaired without too much trouble or expense.

Shimano's chains are an example of very poor durability. Both are known for excellent hubs, although Campy's have also been lighter for the last 10 years. Shimano finally caught up in the weight game with the new 7850 hub.


Dave, tell me again how many chains you tested to come up with your definitive chain study?

:confused:

HSG Racer
12-02-2007, 06:45 PM
Did you happen to mean aluminum instead of carbon? Neither uses much Ti, since it's usually a replacement for steel.

I'm curious about which specific Shimano parts you think are more durable than Campy. It's been established that ergo levers will usually need some repair before an STI lever craps out, but at least they can be repaired without too much trouble or expense.

Shimano's chains are an example of very poor durability. Both are known for excellent hubs, although Campy's have also been lighter for the last 10 years. Shimano finally caught up in the weight game with the new 7850 hub.


Dave,

DA components are almost all aluminum but they have some titanium bits sprinkled throughout the components such as titanium bolts, cogs, sprockets and freehubs. In contrast, Record cranksets and derailers have a lot of carbon. IMO, both Ti and aluminum is almost always more durable than carbon. I do not have any studies to back up this assertion up but that is my experience and my opinion.

As far as chains go, I have had very good luck with DA10 chains. I don't know if they stretch more than Record chains but they have worked quite well for me. I have tried SRAM and Wippermann and Campy chains. I am happy with DA10 chains and I plan to stick with them for the foreseeable future. In the end, is really comes down to whatever works best for you.

:D

Dave
12-02-2007, 07:07 PM
Dave, tell me again how many chains you tested to come up with your definitive chain study?

:confused:

I've never claimed a "definitive" test. Why not be civilized instead of such a smarta$$?

I've been using Campy 10 chains for 8 seasons, or about 40,000 miles and was always puzzled by the MANY complaints I've read about short Shimano chain life, on several websites that I frequent. I always figured these complaining users were those who took poor care of their chains, so I bought one DA 10 chain to test for myself. I rode the chain on the same terrain as I always do and use the same method of lubrication and cleaning. I apply a homebrew lube after nearly every ride, except the few that are only around 20 miles. Most of my rides are in the 40-50 mile range. The elongation of my ONE test chain showed an elongation that was at least four times greater than any of the Campy 10 chains I'd ever used. You can draw whatever conclusion you want, but I doubt that testing a large number of chains would produce a result that was much different. I've never seen the elongation of a Campy chain vary significantly. All have shown very little elongation after 5-6,000 miles, although the new UN chain is showing more elongation than the earlier and slightly wider chain, just as I would suspect.

On a positive note, there's not such a wide disparity in the roller wear between the two brands, but that's not much consolation, since elongation (change in pitch) is the largest culprit in accelerating cog wear.

What I would ask, is if you're a regular shimano chain user, have you ever measured the increase in the entire length of one of YOUR Shimano chains, after 2500 miles of use? The one I'm using will be about 1/4 inch longer, than when new, while several Campy UN chains I have are only about 1/16" longer. Most people use a Park chain checker to monitor chain wear , but it produces an exaggerated reading that's a mix of elongation and roller wear. I rely only on full length comparisons to more accurately measure elongation, independent of roller wear.

My next test candiate will be a KMC chain, which I hope to get next week. I bought three, for only $25 each, so even if they only last 2500 miles, they won't cost much more to use than a Campy chain.

Dave
12-02-2007, 07:23 PM
Dave,

DA components are almost all aluminum but they have some titanium bits sprinkled throughout the components such as titanium bolts, cogs, sprockets and freehubs. In contrast, Record cranksets and derailers have a lot of carbon. IMO, both Ti and aluminum is almost always more durable than carbon. I do not have any studies to back up this assertion up but that is my experience and my opinion.

As far as chains go, I have had very good luck with DA10 chains. I don't know if they stretch more than Record chains but they have worked quite well for me. I have tried SRAM and Wippermann and Campy chains. I am happy with DA10 chains and I plan to stick with them for the foreseeable future. In the end, is really comes down to whatever works best for you.

:D

Thanks for the civilized response. Carbon can sometimes be used to excess, in areas where it's fairly easy to break, but the modern game seems to be weight reduction. At this point, I've never owned the lightest Campy Record FD or RD with carbon cages, but I've had no problem with earlier versions of the Record RD that have carbon in the parallelogram. I've only used FSA carbon cranks, but had to problem with them either.

I had no problem with the ONE DA 10 chain I'm still using, but it will die due to excessive elongation in about 2500 miles, while a Campy 10 chain won't come close to that amount of elongation in 5-6,000 miles (when roller wear finally gives me cause me to trash a Campy chain). I won't bother to buy a second DA chain.

Big Dan
12-02-2007, 07:24 PM
A sample size of ONE?

Homebrew lube?

Did you try one on a Shimano drivetrain?
How about a Campy chain on a Shimano drivetrain?
Personally I haven't had problems with Shimano and/or SRAM chains in the last 20 years.
Can't talk about Campy chain , but I can tell you of all the Campagnolo cones and axles that we had to toss. Record, Chorus etc.
When I hear about the superior Campy quality I just laugh.

barry1021
12-02-2007, 07:39 PM
Folks ride in different conditions and treat their equiptment differently, I know folks that have rebuilt, replaced things and short of an accident, have never had to rebuild replace a lever. Miles and use are big on how long something last.

I used to shift a lot when I rode. Today I rode for an hour-too cold to shift in my lobster claws-think I shifted twice all day.

Dave
12-02-2007, 07:55 PM
A sample size of ONE?

Homebrew lube?

Did you try one on a Shimano drivetrain?
How about a Campy chain on a Shimano drivetrain?
Personally I haven't had problems with Shimano and/or SRAM chains in the last 20 years.
Can't talk about Campy chain , but I can tell you of all the Campagnolo cones and axles that we had to toss. Record, Chorus etc.
When I hear about the superior Campy quality I just laugh.

Homebrew lube? I can see you're not experienced with forum discussions. Homebrew lube is a mixture of mineral spirits and synthetic motor oil, used by a lot of cyclists, instead of of some overpriced "chain lube" that sells for $8 per 4-ounce bottle. When testng chain life, it's important to NOT change any of the conditions. I've used the same basic lube for many years now.

I don't own any Shimano equipped bikes, but I don't get the point. All brands use 1/2 inch pitch sprockets and all modern 10 speed chains have a nearly identical width, so there is no compatibilty problem.

I haven't had any "problems" with any chain either, but some do last a lot longer than others and short chain life is a frequent complaint from Shimano 10 users.

As a counterpoint to your remark about testing only one chain, a manufacturing engineer (like I was for 10 years) would tell you than any good product will perform nearly identically, no matter how many or how few you buy. Do you buy several Shimano chains and only expect one of them to perform well, or only 3 of 4?

Big Dan
12-02-2007, 08:08 PM
Homebrew lube? I can see you're not experienced with forum discussions. Homebrew lube is a mixture of mineral spirits and synthetic motor oil, used by a lot of cyclists, instead of of some overpriced "chain lube" that sells for $8 per 4-ounce bottle. When testng chain life, it's important to NOT change any of the conditions. I've used the same basic lube for many years now.

I don't own any Shimano equipped bikes, but I don't get the point. All brands uee 1/2 inch pitch sprockets and all modern 10 speed chains have a nearly identical width, so there is no compatibilty problem.

I haven't had any "problems" with any chain either, but some do last a lot longer than others and short chain life is a frequent complaint from Shimano 10 users.

As a counterpoint to your remark about testing only one chain, a manufacturing engineer (like I was for 10 years) would tell you than any good product will perform nearly identically, no matter how many or how few you buy. Do you buy several Shimano chains and only expect one of them to perform well, or only 3 of 4?

Simple Dave, your test is worthless. I still can't get over the fact that you used only one chain.
Also you tested the chain with a component group that wasn't spec'd by the manufacturer.
On top of that you used your own lube solution.
So you tell me manufacturers just test one product and send it out in the market?
Actually I was giving way you too much credit before this. Wasted my time.
:crap:


http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=381118&postcount=703

norman neville
12-02-2007, 08:28 PM
Simple Dave, your test is worthless. I still can't get over the fact that you used only one chain.
Also you tested the chain with a component group that wasn't spec'd by the manufacturer.
On top of that you used your own lube solution.
So you tell me manufacturers just test one product and send it out in the market?
Actually I was giving way you too much credit before this. Wasted my time.
:crap:

dude.

dude?

dude!

***?

michael white
12-02-2007, 08:33 PM
I have no comment on any part of this thread,
except the following:

Shimano chains are fine and dandy, except some of the cheap ones. That pretty much goes for anything, though.

e-RICHIE
12-02-2007, 08:33 PM
dude.

dude?

dude!

***?
atmo - (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmxT21uFRwM)

Dave
12-02-2007, 08:45 PM
Simple Dave, your test is worthless. I still can't get over the fact that you used only one chain.
Also you tested the chain with a component group that wasn't spec'd by the manufacturer.
On top of that you used your own lube solution.
So you tell me manufacturers just test one product and send it out in the market?
Actually I was giving way you too much credit before this. Wasted my time.
:crap:

What this proves his how STUPID your are. The DA 10 chain that I used should have been a typical example of a mass produced product, tested and proven by Shimano YEARS before I bought my chain. As I noted, you would not expect any single example of a chain to vary significanly in performance from another, but sure it's possible. If you want to believe that the chain I bought was some kind of manufacturing anomaly and Shimano chains normally last much longer, that's fine. I doubt many intelligent people would agree. I never once found a Campy chain that didn't perform the same.

As for my chain lube, it's well proven by many cyclists, other than me, to produce good results. I've used the same mix for about 8 years. Changing that lube for the test of a Shimano chain would truly have skewed my test results.

If you're too dumb to realize that all 5,6,7,8,9 & 10 speed sprockets use the same 1/2 inch pitch, I can't help you there. You can expect a Shimano, SRAM, Campy, Wipperman or KMC 10 speed chain work with any other brand of 10 speed sprocket.

What component group do you think a KMC or Wipperman chain should be used with? Both are advertised as "compatible with all 10 speed systems".

Big Dan
12-02-2007, 09:57 PM
What this proves his how STUPID your are. The DA 10 chain that I used should have been a typical example of a mass produced product, tested and proven by Shimano YEARS before I bought my chain. As I noted, you would not expect any single example of a chain to vary significanly in performance from another, but sure it's possible. If you want to believe that the chain I bought was a some kind of manufacturing anomaly and Shimano chains normally last much longer, that's fine. I doubt many intelligent people would agree. I never once found a Campy chain that didn't perform the same.

If you're too dumb to realize that all 5,6,7,8,9 & 10 speed sprockets use the same 1/2 inch pitch, I can't help you there. You can expect a Shimano, SRAM, Campy, Wipperman or KMC 10 speed chain work with any other brand of 10 speed sprocket.

What component group do you think a KMC or Wipperman chain should be used with? Both are advertised as "compatible with all 10 speed systems".

I guess they don't teach class at school.

:butt:

You can insult me all you want. That doesn't change the fact that your test is useless and holds no statistical value.
You know that don't you?

DarrenCT
12-02-2007, 10:08 PM
imho this is a bit out of control.

i recommend getting a stick and slamming it against a tree to take out your frustration

Dave
12-03-2007, 10:06 AM
I guess they don't teach class at school.

:butt:

You can insult me all you want. That doesn't change the fact that your test is useless and holds no statistical value.
You know that don't you?

You're really something to talk about class. You can't submit a single post that's not rude or pointless and none of your responses ever contains a shred of useful information. You were really grasping at straws, noting that I didn't test a Shimano chain on a Shimano drivetrain. There's no difference in any brand of 10 speed drivetrain that would cause accelerated chain wear. Any of the popular chain brands should be useable on any 10 speed drivetrain. Of course, there will differing opinons on how well different combinations shift and some may choose a particular chain for what they feel is superior shifting, rather than maximum chain life. Nothing wrong with that. I found the DA chain to shift just fine on my Campy cogs and FSA triple crank. It's just not going to last very long. Sorry the results don't meet your preconceptions.

One of my points, I'll try to make politely, is that products produced in mass quantities from reputable companies like Shimano are not likely to vary widely in their performance. If you were to take 100 chains, randomly from a production run of many thousands, you would find that each of those chains, would perform within a very small percentage of deviation from the average. The chance of one chain wearing out four times faster than another is astronomical. I would expect some kind of normal distribution, perhaps in the 5-10% range, if you were to test those 100 chains under indentical conditions. If that's not the case, then Shimano has some serious quality issues.

I won't ride or live long enough to test enough chains to satisfy your notion of "statistical value". That's not the idea either. The real idea behind this test of a DA chain, was to see if my lubrication technique would produce about the same chain life with a DA chain as it does with a Campy chain, used under the same conditions. I suspected many of the complaints of short life from Shimano chains were really due to neglect and improper wear measurement. A lot of chains get tossed prematurely due to poor information from a Park chain checker.

With 8 years worth of Campy 10 chains behind me, I've got quite a bit of information on them. FWIW, I never found any single chain to wear much differently than any other of the same model. The new Campy UN 5.9mm chains I've got in use are showing more elongation than the original (wider) version, which is no longer made. Even with this greater elongation, it's still about 1/4 the rate of the DA chain I'm using.

Perhaps repeating the fact that I only tested ONE Shimano (DA) chain and found that it elongates about four times faster than any Campy chain I've ever tested will be more satisfactory. That's the result of my first (and last) test of this chain. Let's also include the warning that this chain is only one example and the chain that YOU buy may last much longer (but there is little statistical likelihood).

Think about the many product test reports issued by cycling publications each year. Extensive tests are done on frames to measure stiffness in several critical areas and weight. Several brands, similar in size, are measured and compared and the results published. How many frames of each model are usually tested? ONE. The same thing is done to compare expensive wheels. One example from each manufacturer is usually compared.

Just about every rider has been able to test tires for longevity. I used nothing but Conti GP3000 for years and never failed to get about 2500 miles from a rear tire. I never once found a tire that unexplainably wore out much faster.

Two years ago, I saw a bargain price on Michelin Pro2 Race tires, took a leap of faith, and bought 16 of them for about 60% less than MSRP. So far, I've got 2200-2300 miles from each of four rear tires. Their performance has been quite consistent. I honestly don't think I need to test 100 of them to continue to expect the same mileage range for the rest of the tires I have.