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View Full Version : Why Serotta you may ask - a few reasons below


Pete Serotta
11-28-2007, 12:20 PM
Thought that you all might find this of interest. These are some of the reasons "Why Serotta".

I got this from some Serotta literature and I wanted to share.....
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TECH FOCUS 2008

Every bike company claims to make the world's best bikes. Not every company has 37 years experience in hand-building bicycles and no company has so dedicated itself to defining what the best bike truly is. Our Tech Focus highlights innovative product features we've designed to achieve our goal of producing the world's best bikes.

Tubing Stiffness

Along with geometry and finish, stiffness level is one of the most significant aspects of the Serotta customization process. With each bike design we select a tubeset with a specific stiffness level that suits an individual rider's weight, riding style and the intended use of the bike. By mixing and matching tubes of varying stiffness levels we effectively have near-infinite ride quality adjustability. In each frame design we can truly hit an individual rider's ideal ride quality and performance characteristics.

The Process:

We modify the stiffness of titanium and steel tubes by adjusting the diameters and wall thicknesses of the tubes themselves. As the diameter increases so does the torsional and bending stiffness of the tube. Our steel material is provided by Columbus, who forms each tube according to our specifications. Titanium tubes are cut, butted and shaped in-house from raw titanium tubing. During the design process, each tube is selected according to the size and stiffness level required based on the information provided from your customer's interview and fitting.

Carbon fiber's unique construction and physical properties allow us to take a different approach to adjusting stiffness. Rather than changing diameters of the tubes to influence stiffness level, we manipulate the carbon matrix in each tube. To yield increased stiffness we engineer our tubes with a greater percentage of higher modulus (stiffness) carbon fibers. We then select from these stiffness levels, ranging from standard to Clydesdale, to tailor the frames specific riding characteristics.

There are several advantages to the Serotta approach. The first is that we can create incredibly stiff bikes without an appreciable increase in weight. Another is the varying of the different tubes to create the customer's exacting requirements in their new frame. No other company goes to such great lengths to tailor the ride qualities of their frames. It is one reason why Serotta bicycles are so desirable.

soulspinner
11-28-2007, 03:36 PM
This is meant to be a question, not a criticism. Can anyone explain why the Serotta HSG tested in issue 38 of RIDE has such large deflection in the seat/top and bottom bracket junction? The front end is as stiff as Ive seen. (The standard of all these tests is still a Peg Marcelo that weighed in at 1320 grams in a previous issue). I understand its not exactly a real world simulation, but there seems some relevance to the frames as they use exaclty the same weight at the respective sites on the frames.

Ive also read that Merckx rode 531 because it deflected more than the Columbus steel of the era. He apparently felt it worked better for him, the greatest of all time. Maybe we have reached a point where stiffer isnt necessarily better?

rpm
11-28-2007, 04:24 PM
Serott Pete--

This is very helpful! You should post it on the main Serotta site. You need this to differentiate Serotta from everybody else who makes claims about their oddly shaped tubes.

Pete Serotta
11-28-2007, 07:12 PM
I will send to Kelly and Steve, you are way over my head on this. I know the folks that owe or have ridden the bike say it is stiff in all the right places.

PETE


This is meant to be a question, not a criticism. Can anyone explain why the Serotta HSG tested in issue 38 of RIDE has such large deflection in the seat/top and bottom bracket junction? The front end is as stiff as Ive seen. (The standard of all these tests is still a Peg Marcelo that weighed in at 1320 grams in a previous issue). I understand its not exactly a real world simulation, but there seems some relevance to the frames as they use exaclty the same weight at the respective sites on the frames.

Ive also read that Merckx rode 531 because it deflected more than the Columbus steel of the era. He apparently felt it worked better for him, the greatest of all time. Maybe we have reached a point where stiffer isnt necessarily better?

Fixed
11-29-2007, 09:21 AM
bro they didn't fall off the wheel truck yesterday .they have been doin this awhile if they say stff it is in the place it needs to be and not where it doesn't . imho trust them
cheers

Pete Serotta
11-30-2007, 11:25 AM
THis is what James replied back. Also please keep in mind that many HSGs are being raced and if anything the comment has been stiff at bb and very responsive..... If you have the web site please provide to James and he can review. THANKS Pete


Re: HSG Deflection
I'm honestly not familiar with the test in question, so I can't speak as to how it's conducted or what the numbers themselves are.
That the seat tube / top tube junction is on the flexible side is of no surprise to me - that's how it was designed. That particular area of the frame has no bearing on handling or drivetrain stiffness, so making it more flexible only increases the compliance and in-saddle comfort on that frame.
I am, on the other hand, surprised to hear the deflection numbers on the bottom bracket were high. Our in-house testing, which is also deflection-based, showed the HSG models to have the best deflection numbers we've ever seen.
Nevertheless, I do agree with your statement about stiffness not necessarily being better. The fact is that the majority of bikes made today are many, many times stiffer than bikes of only a few years ago, and overly stiff when compared to real-world requirements.
I hope this helps and I would be interested to see the results of the test you cite. Is there a website I can view for that?

James






This is meant to be a question, not a criticism. Can anyone explain why the Serotta HSG tested in issue 38 of RIDE has such large deflection in the seat/top and bottom bracket junction? The front end is as stiff as Ive seen. (The standard of all these tests is still a Peg Marcelo that weighed in at 1320 grams in a previous issue). I understand its not exactly a real world simulation, but there seems some relevance to the frames as they use exaclty the same weight at the respective sites on the frames.

Ive also read that Merckx rode 531 because it deflected more than the Columbus steel of the era. He apparently felt it worked better for him, the greatest of all time. Maybe we have reached a point where stiffer isnt necessarily better?

soulspinner
11-30-2007, 12:17 PM
Thanks, I got that and replied to it yesterday, me thinks. Havent heard back again yet but Serotta folks will have to buy a copy, dont think its available yet online... :beer:

capybaras
12-13-2007, 05:12 PM
Why not? They make nice bikes!

jpw
12-14-2007, 06:25 AM
Buy Moots and acquire their welders. That would be the last stage in refining the Serotta build process - game over :-)

Brian Smith
12-15-2007, 05:20 PM
Buy Moots and acquire their welders. That would be the last stage in refining the Serotta build process - game over :-)

Why? Serotta's machines are just dandy. Oh wait, did you mean weldors? :)

Seriously though, We've heard this Moots weld thing before.
For the sake of argument, which is simply an argument, and is devoid of facts, that the pulsed weldment look resulted in a weaker joint. Would you still want that? I think there is an undercurrent of supposition, perpetuated by the press, that a machine controlled current level during welding must be making a better joint, based on the appearance. The facts, however few, are that none of the quality-built titanium frames from the U.S. have a problem with weldment quality. As far as appearances go, we are talking about a rather industrial appearance joint anyway, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I can tell you that from my perspective, I wouldn't prefer any additional welding operations on a frame beyond that which make the joint better, and if additional welding for cosmetic purposes could make anything structurally worse, even if the worsening is largely academic, and of no consequence to the frame's strength, then I wouldn't want that additional welding to happen.
My point is not to say that there is something wrong with additionally welding a frame for appearance's sake, but to suggest that there is also a body of "weldment appreciation" that goes beyond machine pulsed aesthetic. Some weldors have a pet name for electronic pulse controllers, and that's "cheaters."
A lot of folks cannot learn to weld without using one. That doesn't make the machine bad or the weldors unskilled. It is what it is. People dig it, but there are other things to dig, too.

Pete Serotta
12-15-2007, 07:57 PM
Look at the fit process, custom tubing, in house fork mft, paint or non paint, life time warranty - then decide.

Not to start a "food fight" but a good friend of mine has a MOOTs and just got a HSG. Not to say he does not like the MOOTS, for I even like it - -- BUT he recently suggested a SEROTTA to another of our friends.
:D :D :D :D

Yes I got some red for him (yeah I know I am VERY biased) :confused: ;)

Dave B
12-15-2007, 08:24 PM
I have had both, a serotta fierte ti and now a Vamoots.

I cannot say that they are apples to apples, but for me both were the stock geo, and both did not have any paint to speak of. THE Serotta was compact (sloping tt) and the Vamoots has been the same bike for years and years. Both the same size 56 and on and on.

I would recommend both/either to anyone.

I like mtb and Moots does it better...atmo.

What I like about both companies and to include IF in there is well, is that there is a tremendous amount of respect within that family.

I have spoken to many people at Moots, and at IF many times.

I have never heard them say anything but praise and admiration about the mentioned companies.


To say one is better due to welders makes me laugh.

Moots, IF, Serotta, etc (bikes we see listed on this forum) Are of the utmost quality and have a tremendous amount of thought and love put into them from the PEOPLE that make the company what it is.

Enjoy the ride and you wont even notice the welds. atmo

BumbleBeeDave
12-15-2007, 09:57 PM
. . . of any of the three companies--Serotta, Moots, or IF--is just nitpicking. Whether you are talking about the welds or the fit and finish, there is very little way you are going to be disappointed in offerings from any of the three of you do your homework as to what features you want and go through the proper fitting process. They are just different flavors of and approaches to the same very high quality.

When I was shopping I wasn't even looking at the welds. And whichever way they were welded, I would be so not worried about a weld failing. I was impressed by the Serotta's overall fit and finish and the care evident in the paint and finishing work. I was also mightily impressed by the obvious thought and innovation of the size cycle fitting process. I couldn't get around the fact that whoever had come up with the idea for the size cycle obviously gets it and the name on the size cycle said Serotta.

BBD

DarrenCT
12-15-2007, 10:07 PM
I have had both, a serotta fierte ti and now a Vamoots.

I cannot say that they are apples to apples, but for me both were the stock geo, and both did not have any paint to speak of. THE Serotta was compact (sloping tt) and the Vamoots has been the same bike for years and years. Both the same size 56 and on and on.

I would recommend both/either to anyone.

I like mtb and Moots does it better...atmo.

What I like about both companies and to include IF in there is well, is that there is a tremendous amount of respect within that family.

I have spoken to many people at Moots, and at IF many times.

I have never heard them say anything but praise and admiration about the mentioned companies.


To say one is better due to welders makes me laugh.

Moots, IF, Serotta, etc (bikes we see listed on this forum) Are of the utmost quality and have a tremendous amount of thought and love put into them from the PEOPLE that make the company what it is.

Enjoy the ride and you wont even notice the welds. atmo

well put.

they all get it atmo

Ahneida Ride
12-16-2007, 09:27 PM
The welds on my Legend are superlative.

I always look real close at the welds of Serotta's competitors and honestly
the welds on my frame are at least as good or better.

Even around the hidden area's of the BB, the guy who welded my Legend
did an exemplary job.

Is it Perfect?, Well one can tell the joining was performed by a human rather
then a robot. But isn't that part of the romance?

In this case, I'll trust the human. ;)

DarrenCT
12-16-2007, 10:26 PM
The welds on my Legend are superlative.

I always look real close at the welds of Serotta's competitors and honestly
the welds on my frame are at least as good or better.

Even around the hidden area's of the BB, the guy who welded my Legend
did an exemplary job.

Is it Perfect?, Well one can tell the joining was performed by a human rather
then a robot. But isn't that part of the romance?

In this case, I'll trust the human. ;)

pictures needed. i love legends...

soulspinner
12-17-2007, 05:33 AM
Totally agree :beer:

Ahneida Ride
12-19-2007, 11:58 PM
pictures needed. i love legends...

Orange Legend Rapid Tour Ti (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=30993&highlight=orange+legend)

djg
12-20-2007, 08:10 AM
Why? Serotta's machines are just dandy. Oh wait, did you mean weldors? :)

Seriously though, We've heard this Moots weld thing before...People dig it, but there are other things to dig, too.

It's one of those bike aesthetic things I just don't get. It's not that I never look at a welded junction. I like it when things look neat and I don't like it when they look really gloppy or uneven -- I don't like the way it looks and at a certain point I wonder what else might be signaled by the sloppiness. But once it's neat, it's good, and the sort of fetish staring and drooling over a certain kind of patterned weld is just mysterious to me. As you say, people like what they like.

I'm not dissing Moots, by the way -- I've never ridden one, but folks who have them seem to like them very much, and they look to be well made and sensible and all that. Maybe they're great. I just don't get the fanatic weld style love thing.

dbrk
12-25-2007, 09:31 AM
It's one of those bike aesthetic things I just don't get. ... snip I just don't get the fanatic weld style love thing.

I'm not being provocative here, but what about a ti frame's aesthetics _is_ there to love but tidy, handsome welds? Is the function of a frame it's only aesthetic? There may be little else but I hope not. There are handsome ti frames, handsomer still for the welds, but none make me look more than once closely--- until I do, then I prefer the welds in league with Moots or Eriksen.

That said, a nicely made frame can surely be ugly (to my uncultured eye) as a _bicycle_, just like a merely adequately made frame can be a beautiful (think: many an RB-1, not all...).

It's all in what you care about and the stakes are low, I could not agree more about that. Food is what you can eat; cuisine is what you want to eat.

dbrk

paczki
12-25-2007, 10:50 AM
Orange Legend Rapid Tour Ti (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=30993&highlight=orange+legend)

Your bike wins.That is awesome.

djg
12-25-2007, 11:08 AM
I'm not being provocative here, but what about a ti frame's aesthetics _is_ there to love but tidy, handsome welds? Is the function of a frame it's only aesthetic? There may be little else but I hope not. There are handsome ti frames, handsomer still for the welds, but none make me look more than once closely--- until I do, then I prefer the welds in league with Moots or Eriksen.

That said, a nicely made frame can surely be ugly (to my uncultured eye) as a _bicycle_, just like a merely adequately made frame can be a beautiful (think: many an RB-1, not all...).

It's all in what you care about and the stakes are low, I could not agree more about that. Food is what you can eat; cuisine is what you want to eat.

dbrk

Well, I guess I think that there are other things to look at. (Or not -- as you say, it's all about our idiosyncratic preferences and the stakes are low, and wonderfully so given some of the topics we've had around here). So for me, there's the overall gestalt, as e-R might say if he could say it about a Ti frame, which for me starts with the geometry (some bikes have me at hello, and some lose me across a parking lot). I guess I notice the pipes when I'm looking -- or at least certain things about them -- and when I'm looking at details I tend to look at things like the dropouts and seat cluster as much as I stare at the welds. Also, nothing against the look of a well made bare ti frame, but I tend to like paint. So if I'm just looking, I notice the paint too. Frankly, I know just enough about welding to know that I cannot really see, from the outside, the difference between great, good, and a disaster waiting to happen. As I said, when I look closely at TIG welds, I have a preference for neat, even, and tidy, but then my interest in the surface appearance of the weld bead runs out. Props to Moots for their art, such as it is, but it doesn't add value for me over things I've seen elsewhere and, while we like what we like, it would seem nuts to me if folks weren't also happy with the way the things went down the road.

With cuisine, to follow (or mangle) your analogy and digress further, there's cooking and there's presentation -- which sometimes is and sometimes is not up to the cooking -- and then there's Presentation and PRESENTATION, and I really pretty much never care who can build the tallest and most symmetrical tower of "deconstructed" ingredients. We like what we like, as you say, but at some point it's no longer about presentation of the cooking, but something else, and I don't see art in it (or what pulls me to other things which really do work for me as art). So I kinda feel that way about the weld thing.

csi & legend ti
01-01-2008, 12:42 PM
Why serotta? When I first started riding in the early 90's I only did it because I was runner and the bike was only used during times of injury. As injury's became more frequent I started to ride more.

I had a Trek 1000. I remember going to the Great River Ride for the first time. This was my third century ride in four weeks. There were many nice looking bikes, but one stood out. A purple Serotta CSI. This frame just looked really sexy. At least to me. Sexier than my fat tube Trek 1000.

All I could think about was getting a CSI. In 1996 I finally got one. Red with black decals. F1 fork. Moved my mixture of Shimano 105 and 600 components over to the Serotta. Following year I upgraded to full Dura-Ace.

After thousands of miles on the CSI I wanted to try a Ti bike. I checked out the other builders of Ti bikes, but just kept coming back to Serotta. I guess I just feel comfortable on a Serotta.

Jim

333halfevil
01-09-2008, 12:25 AM
Truth be told, several years ago, Moots was trying to recruit one of Serotta's long time welders. Hmmmm, I wonder why? Brian is right in all that he has posted. Think about it, Moots welds do truely look like a well laid out roll of nickels, but they are applied with a pulse welder. Serottas are applied by true hands of an artisan. True, pulse welders still have an employee welding; but a serotta weld is completely done by an employee. I think they look great knowing that someone actually made that weld look like a thing of beauty using just pure talent. Kudos to the welders at Serotta!!! :banana: