Do builders say "no"?

[caleb]

Sometimes I see bikes that look, to put it simply, ugly. For whatever reason, the geo looks totally whacked. Usually it is the result of short top tubes and uber tall head tubes. I think doing these sorts of builds makes builders look bad, undercutting their reputation and 'cred. Do they ever say, "No, I won't build a bike with the bars three inches above the saddle"?

The reason I ask is that I know of a shop that won't send a bike out the door with the bars higher than the saddle. If you need that sort of fit you need to go elsewhere. It's mainly a image for this shop - do builders do the same sort of thing?

[Ginger]

Ugly to you, but beautiful because it puts someone on a bike on the road.

I'd ask less: do builders say no, and more:
Are there more elegant solutions to this geometry puzzle to match that rider's contact points than those particular builder's arrived at??

[Blue Jays]

What if the person seeking the bicycle has a medical condition that mandates that kind of positioning in order to ride?

[Ginger]

The reason I ask is that I know of a shop that won't send a bike out the door with the bars higher than the saddle. If you need that sort of fit you need to go elsewhere. It's mainly a image for this shop -

And these shops do a disservice to riders who think the shop knows what it's doing and force themselves into positions that they shouldn't assume "because the shop says so".

[dauwhe]

The reason I ask is that I know of a shop that won't send a bike out the door with the bars higher than the saddle. If you need that sort of fit you need to go elsewhere. It's mainly a image for this shop - do builders do the same sort of thing?

I find that horrifying. Do they check your racing results and body fat percentage before they let you in to buy an inner tube? Do they only allow good-looking people in the store?

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

I think doing these sorts of builds makes builders look bad, undercutting their reputation and 'cred. Do they ever say, "No, I won't build a bike with the bars three inches above the saddle"?


not all builders serve all masters atmo.

[dirtdigger88]

not all builders serve all masters atmo.

does that mean NO on the BMX bike I requested

Jason

[TMB]

I will tell you for a fact that at least one builder recently said no to my suggested colour scheme for a bike being built.

This was just after the long pause - where I could visualize him thinking " Seriously??""

Then a VERY diplomatic explanation of why some other way of dealing with would no look really great - a diplomatic way of saying " are you freaking kidding??"

[avalonracing]

I will tell you for a fact that at least one builder recently said no to my suggested colour scheme for a bike being built.

This was just after the long pause - where I could visualize him thinking " Seriously??""

Then a VERY diplomatic explanation of why some other way of dealing with would no look really great - a diplomatic way of saying " are you freaking kidding??"

So what is the color scheme? Let us be the judge. ;)

[mosca]

Do builders say "no"?Yes, every time I try to specify the amount of planing that I will require in my new frame! :crap: :D

[Too Tall]

not all builders serve all masters atmo.
Tell that to your dog ;)

To the best of my knowledge, yes thank goodness. There is such a thing as integrity.

[David Kirk]

I say "no" all the time. Being a one man shop I'm very approachable and easy to contact so the folks that want something outside the norm find me and other like me.

I get requests for bikes with 36cm stays and 78* seat angles and crazy crap like that. For the record I won't build a bike with 25mm of trail. You'll have to ask Richard for that.

It doesn't happen all that often but there have been a number of times that I've refused to build a frame for someone the way they wanted because I sincerely felt that the bike wouldn't work well or wouldn't work as they expected. In a few cases the customer wanted what they wanted and they moved on down the list. In others I've built them what I knew would work well for them and everyone was happy.

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

if you weren't so tall i'd kiss you atmo.



I say "no" all the time. Being a one man shop I'm very approachable and easy to contact so the folks that want something outside the norm find me and other like me.

I get requests for bikes with 36cm stays and 78* seat angles and crazy crap like that. For the record I won't build a bike with 25mm of trail. You'll have to ask Richard for that.

It doesn't happen all that often but there have been a number of times that I've refused to build a frame for someone the way they wanted because I sincerely felt that the bike wouldn't work well or wouldn't work as they expected. In a few cases the customer wanted what they wanted and they moved on down the list. In others I've built them what I knew would work well for them and everyone was happy.

Dave

[Fixed]

bro what if the cat says he wants a bike just like zoot vanhussan rode in the 1948 dobbertour ? 57 t.t. 61 s.t.
cheers

[Grant McLean]

if you weren't so tall i'd kiss you atmo.

e-Richie doesn't ever say no,
he just pretends to have a headache

:D


-g

[djg]

if you weren't so tall i'd kiss you atmo.

Yeah, but what if he said "no"?

[CNY rider]

I will tell you for a fact that at least one builder recently said no to my suggested colour scheme for a bike being built.

This was just after the long pause - where I could visualize him thinking " Seriously??""

Then a VERY diplomatic explanation of why some other way of dealing with would no look really great - a diplomatic way of saying " are you freaking kidding??"

I think that's really a very different issue than letting a bike with odd or unusual geo go out the door with the builder's name on it.
Certainly, there are some bikes like e-R's that most of us associate with a certain paint scheme and I guess he might not want to see an oddly painted duck with his name on it. But for most builders, the customer should have lots of leeway in choosing paint.
I also think we need to clarify what exactly a builder would be saying "No" to. If someone has had a spinal fusion, goes to a custom builder for a fitting, and then is told they can't have a bike because it will look funny and be bad for the builders rep, then that's bad mojo on the builders part.
If on the other hand I show up at the builders door, and tell him I want a bike built and by the way here are the exact measurements I want it built to, regardless of how silly it looks and how ill-fitting it might be, then yes, a respectable builder should be saying "NO".

[Louis]

a bike just like zoot vanhussan rode in the 1948 dobbertour ? 57 t.t. 61 s.t.

He must be my long-lost twin - that's just my size !!!!

[David Kirk]

if you weren't so tall i'd kiss you atmo.

I'll wear my flats.

You got any platforms?



Dave

[Steve Hampsten]

bro what if the cat says he wants a bike just like zoot vanhussan rode in the 1948 dobbertour ? 57 t.t. 61 s.t.
cheers

I get a lot of guys with long legs, short torsos, and not a ton of lower-back flexibility - just like pal Zoot. It can be a challenge to find the least-worst solution and the end result ain't always the prettiest, but they do go down the road smiling in the end.

Let's face it: the more saddle-to-bar drop a bike has, generally the more attractive it is.

[thejen12]

My builder said "No" to building me a frame designed around 650c wheels. He tried to design it and said he couldn't stand how it was turning out, and couldn't even finish the design.

Instead, he built me a frame designed around 700c wheels and a 5cm stem (I need a really short reach, obviously). I know that horrifies some people on this board, but it rides great and I love it! I am able to ride more now that I had been able to for the past 6 years. :banana: I've ordered another one!

Jenn

[e-RICHIE]

I also think we need to clarify what exactly a builder would be saying "No" to. If someone has had a spinal fusion, goes to a custom builder for a fitting, and then is told they can't have a bike because it will look funny and be bad for the builders rep, then that's bad mojo on the builders part.
well saying it that way to that cat certainly is bad mojo atmo, but not all
builders serve all masters. you don't go to a road cat to have a recumbent
tandem made. and you don't ask a balenciaga to make you army fatigues.
some builders will do anything for anyone, and most won't. my dentist
refused to prescribe anything for my broken ribs last year. bwaaaaaaaa.


this is all meant in good fun atmo.

[shinomaster]

well saying it that way to that cat certainly is bad mojo atmo, but not all
builders serve all masters. you don't go to a road cat to have a recumbent
tandem made. and you don't ask a balenciaga to make you army fatigues.
some builders will do anything for anyone, and most won't. my dentist
refused to prescribe anything for my broken ribs last year. bwaaaaaaaa.


this is all meant in good fun atmo.

You mean you wouldn't make me a unicycle? :banana:

[J.Greene]

:bike: my dentist
refused to prescribe anything for my broken ribs last year. bwaaaaaaaa.
this is all meant in good fun atmo.

you were lucky to get the asthma inhaler from the urologist atmo


JG

[Grant McLean]

this is all meant in good fun atmo.

I promise, if you call my number, I won't say no....

-g


:banana:

[CNY rider]

:bike:

you were lucky to get the asthma inhaler from the urologist atmo


JG
Reminds me of a great scene from Beavis and Butthead:

Hey Butthead you know when you go to the dentist and he checks your nads.....?

[shinomaster]

http://oregonvelo.exposuremanager.com/p/cc0707unicycles/cc0707mjb011341

[11.4]

e-Richie doesn't ever say no,
he just pretends to have a headache

:D


-g

No. You just are in that pool of riders who never get their frames. That's worse punishment.

[e-RICHIE]

No. You just are in that pool of riders who never get their frames. That's worse punishment.
grant has spinal fusion atmo?

[barry1021]

So what is the color scheme? Let us be the judge. ;)

a fan of pink..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

b21

[TMB]

a fan of pink..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

b21

As are all cyclists of taste and breeding.

However, there was no pink involved in my aborted design.

To be fair, there were a couple of building design touches I suggested and was turned down by the builder since he felt they either did not add to the bike, or in fact may have taken away from structural integrity.

Kudos to him. He's the guy that knows what he's doing.

[barry1021]

As are all cyclists of taste and breeding.

However, there was no pink involved in my aborted design.

To be fair, there were a couple of building design touches I suggested and was turned down by the builder since he felt they either did not add to the bike, or in fact may have taken away from structural integrity.

Kudos to him. He's the guy that knows what he's doing.

my Telekom Merckx has pink in it or I would take that personally :bike:

wise choice leaving it up to the pro, tho.

b21

[Ginger]

I find that horrifying. Do they check your racing results and body fat percentage before they let you in to buy an inner tube? Do they only allow good-looking people in the store?

Dave

You are hilarious. Close your eyes and imagine the guys behind the counter...tee hee. (Every shop lets me in...but some then kick me back out!)

My initial responses was not to speak for builders, it was a trip to the reframing shop to put the question in a different light..

Of COURSE they say no. That's why just about anyone works for themselves so they can say NO if they want to...right?

What good would it be if you say "Yes" to everything.
You'd just be cheap and tawdry...

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[e-RICHIE]

What good would it be if you say "Yes" to everything.
You'd just be cheap and tawdry...

alt.bicycles.agreeable

[manet]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=yes&word2=no

[C5 Snowboarder]

Sometimes I see bikes that look, to put it simply, ugly. For whatever reason, the geo looks totally whacked. Usually it is the result of short top tubes and uber tall head tubes.

I would bet that some that do not like tall head tubes are short people. I would also bet that tall people hate the look of short bikes.

:crap:

[Ken Robb]

FWIW Grant Petersen states on his site that he won't build a bike if he thinks it won't ride well or look good.

[e-RICHIE]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=stem+as+is&word2=stem+flipped

[e-RICHIE]

FWIW Grant Petersen states on his site that he won't build a bike if he thinks it won't ride well or look good.
but he's a mensch atmo.

[Tobias]

My builder said "No" to building me a frame designed around 650c wheels. He tried to design it and said he couldn't stand how it was turning out, and couldn't even finish the design.

Instead, he built me a frame designed around 700c wheels and a 5cm stem (I need a really short reach, obviously). I know that horrifies some people on this board, but it rides great and I love it! I am able to ride more now that I had been able to for the past 6 years. :banana: I've ordered another one!

JennJenn, did you get a second opinion from another builder? It's always a two-way street; the buyer also has the option to say no.

I probably would have walked and maybe miss a good opportunity. You didn't and it worked out well enough to want another.

[scrooge]

I would also bet that tall people hate the look of short bikes.

:crap:

Not any more than I hate short people.


Actually, I prefer about a 56 or 58--things just look right. I don't really like giant (small g) bikes either..

[thejen12]

Jenn, did you get a second opinion from another builder? It's always a two-way street; the buyer also has the option to say no.

I probably would have walked and maybe miss a good opportunity. You didn't and it worked out well enough to want another.
Actually, I really wanted a 700c bike, but was curious about how a 650c bike would compare in the design so I asked him to draw one up that way. Going in, I was actually afraid he would refuse to make me a 700c bike! (I didn't discuss this with him before-hand because I wanted to see what he came up with. I figured he'd know better than I which would make a better bike for me.)

So I was happy all the way around, as was the builder. Win win :)

[DarrenCT]

Not any more than I hate short people.


Actually, I prefer about a 56 or 58--things just look right. I don't really like giant (small g) bikes either..

agreed.

those giant super-slopers are in-correct imho

[Len J]

Maybe it's me, but why on earth would you have a bike built by someone you didn't trust (enough to put you on the right bike for you)?

Len

[Dekonick]

I'll wear my flats.

You got any platforms?



Dave

With goldfish in the heel?

[vandeda]

Maybe it's me, but why on earth would you have a bike built by someone you didn't trust (enough to put you on the right bike for you)?

Len

because you may trust them too much .... you may trust them to do something that they may not be able to. like ... we know e-richie is a fantastic builder so clearly he'll be able to build that touring bike you wanted ... yeah ok he doesn't want to build one and has no experience, but hey he has years of experience building bikes so I bet he can swing it.

or maybe you're trusting them just right ... trusting that they will say "no" if the bike you want is out of their realm (or wrong and they can honestly and kindly tell you why you're wrong).

[e-RICHIE]

we know e-richie is a fantastic builder so clearly he'll be able to build that touring bike you wanted ... yeah ok he doesn't want to build one and has no experience, but hey he has years of experience building bikes so I bet he can swing it.
hey i've built 100s of them atmo.

[Len J]

because you may trust them too much .... you may trust them to do something that they may not be able to. like ... we know e-richie is a fantastic builder so clearly he'll be able to build that touring bike you wanted ... yeah ok he doesn't want to build one and has no experience, but hey he has years of experience building bikes so I bet he can swing it.

or maybe you're trusting them just right ... trusting that they will say "no" if the bike you want is out of their realm (or wrong and they can honestly and kindly tell you why you're wrong).

Then you haven't sone your homework.......it's so easy to find out who the credible builders are these days.

The second part is exactly my point.

Len

[Viper]

hey i've built 100s of them atmo.

Jes*s Chr*st Alm*ghty build me one (atmo).

[DarrenCT]

Jes*s Chr*st Alm*ghty build me one (atmo).

do u realize how hard it is to read this after having 3 beers!?!?!? :crap:

[Grant McLean]

grant has spinal fusion atmo?

hey, i'm a sure thing

call me ;)

bring Sarah and Nigella

I won't say no, i promise

-g

[Viper]

do u realize how hard it is to read this after having 3 beers!?!?!? :crap:

What's the beverage of choice? I'm on the trainer going so slowly I can type. :) Fighting a srs cold. My latest thing is to leave beer outside, it's 40* and just right, I won't be having any for a few days though.

[fmbp]

With goldfish in the heel?
like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-0C9vwUGME

[Fixed]

on the first date most of the time
cheers imho

[sspielman]

..back to the original post.....I understand that when Ugo DeRosa used to get requests for something stupid, that he would profusely apologise for being 'too busy' to handle the order...and the send the person to Ernesto Colnago!

[DarrenCT]

What's the beverage of choice? I'm on the trainer going so slowly I can type. :) Fighting a srs cold. My latest thing is to leave beer outside, it's 40* and just right, I won't be having any for a few days though.

viper,

some samual adams seasonal brew i got at cosco. i had the outmeal stout which was ok but pretty light. i think i'll save it for the visitors.

hmm what about riding the trainer and sipping on a beer at the same time?? :)

[Fixed]

bro hmm..... if i were a builder i'm having trouble keepin the lights on some cats says make.. this gives 2000.. i say no? .. maybe put buyers name on it

cheers

[nicrump]

i say no often. but, not all road bikes have to be "race bikes". when i say no its not because of aesthetic but generally don’t agree with the outcome to true need.

[Tom]

50/50 mix of rum and lemon juice, one large tumbler full. You'll either be cured or not care. It's what I do and it cures about half the time.

[Ti Designs]

Can't get very far in life without the word "no"...

[J.Greene]

I half jokingly asked for a sachs track tandem a few years ago. The answer was no.

JG

[e-RICHIE]

I half jokingly asked for a sachs track tandem a few years ago. The answer was no.

JG
that's because you have spinal fusion.
wrong bike for you atmo.

[J.Greene]

that's because you have spinal fusion.
wrong bike for you atmo.

I was really turned off by the 12 year wait for a tandem.

JG

[Fixed]

you could get half in 6
cheers

[Climb01742]

every creative person who has a soul must, at certain points, say "no". otherwise you're just a pair of hands. and no builder worth his/her salt is just a pair of hands.

[FlaRider]

I half jokingly asked for a sachs track tandem a few years ago. The answer was no.

JG

Really, he's building one for my wife and me as we speak :p

[Vancouverdave]

I'm a mechanic, not a framebuilder, but a politically incorrect truth about selling or servicing any technical product is that sometimes a customer just doesn't know enough to be right--and you're ripping them off by selling bad merchandise because you refuse to realize that! That said, the shop that won't send a bike out with bars above the saddle has their collective head in a dark, smelly place.

[RudAwkning]

I say "no" all the time. Being a one man shop I'm very approachable and easy to contact so the folks that want something outside the norm find me and other like me.

I get requests for bikes with 36cm stays and 78* seat angles and crazy crap like that. For the record I won't build a bike with 25mm of trail. You'll have to ask Richard for that.

It doesn't happen all that often but there have been a number of times that I've refused to build a frame for someone the way they wanted because I sincerely felt that the bike wouldn't work well or wouldn't work as they expected. In a few cases the customer wanted what they wanted and they moved on down the list. In others I've built them what I knew would work well for them and everyone was happy.

Dave

David said no to me when I asked for a straight blade, unicrown fork.....and I'm glad he did :)

[SadieKate]

The word "no" can be a beautiful thing if the builder can articulate why not. The discussion can mean new ideas or a better educated buyer.

[Fat Robert]

the customer is not always right

the builder is an artist and a craftsman. his or her first duty is to their own work. their second duty is to their brand.

the builder is not your whore. however, you are their client.

[e-RICHIE]

the builder is not your whore. however, you are their client.
'best 3 minutes you'll ever have too atmo.

[Fat Robert]

'best 3 minutes you'll ever have too atmo.

that's what I hear

thanks for helping out my boy damien

[goonster]

Builders say "no" all the time.

They tell me, "no, you don't have enough money."

[flydhest]

if you weren't so tall i'd kiss you atmo.

when you're toe-to-toe, your nose is in it,
when you're nose-to-nose, your toes is in it.

[fiamme red]

you could get half in 6
cheersCan I get an e-RICHIE unicycle in three? :D

[J.Greene]

Can I get an e-RICHIE unicycle in three? :D

Better yet, he'll sell you lugs today.

JG

[Bob Ross]

Do they check your racing results and body fat percentage before they let you in to buy an inner tube?


Oh, so you've already been to R&A Cycles in Brooklyn!

[rwsaunders]

It's easy.

[pdxmech13]

In college if she said no, I always thought it meant "eventually yes"

[shinomaster]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/HPM/BM1172~Say-No-To-Crack-Posters.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Say-No-To-Crack-Posters_i1037389_.htm&h=450&w=321&sz=48&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=p84ToadjnfCP_M:&tbnh=127&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsay%2Bno%2Bto%2Bcrack%26svnum%3D10%26 um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN