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swoop
11-27-2007, 11:31 AM
wow.

Dave B
11-27-2007, 11:32 AM
Ahhh who cares!

go Slip Stream!

Go Dave Z

aLexis
11-27-2007, 11:36 AM
Team High Road sounds funny.

saab2000
11-27-2007, 11:40 AM
Can you blame them? Honestly, pro cycling is a farce, only slightly more reputable than roller derby or pro wrestling. Maybe it's kinda like UFC, more legit than boxing and wrestling....... :rolleyes:

If I were calling the shots I am not sure I'd want to be paying a bunch of prima donna bike riders millions after it comes out that many of them were lying and cheating for years.

They may be on the right path to redemption, but it was too little too late for Deutsche Telekom.

gdw
11-27-2007, 11:40 AM
I hope other sponsors pull out as well. The sport is a joke and needs reform. Hit em where it hurts.

HSG Racer
11-27-2007, 11:44 AM
T-Mobile fielded some great and exciting racers over the years. They were always exciting to watch and extremely competitive. T-Mobile pulled their sponsorship for the same reason that Discovery did - doping.

:rolleyes:

swoop
11-27-2007, 11:46 AM
Team High Road sounds funny.

needs a logo with dice, shot glass, and a blunt.

Steelhead
11-27-2007, 11:47 AM
I guess I've gotta go get a different cell plan provider now. ;)

corky
11-27-2007, 11:47 AM
more like because Lance retired...

aLexis
11-27-2007, 11:48 AM
needs a logo with dice, shot glass, and a blunt.

I could see Ina rolling that way.

Len J
11-27-2007, 11:50 AM
I hope other sponsors pull out as well. The sport is a joke and needs reform. Hit em where it hurts.

I will be interesting not only who steps up....but waht they pay.

Len

ada@prorider.or
11-27-2007, 11:53 AM
good

i hope a big bank does the same

meaby then they understand ,that normal do not accept the cheating

HSG Racer
11-27-2007, 11:55 AM
Yes, doping is the reason for T-Mobile pulling out. But, is pro-cycling really worse than any American sport when it comes to doping or is pro-cycling really in the news more often because they frequently test their riders and are actively trying to expose and eliminate doping from the sport? I don't know what the answer is here. But, there is plenty of evidence that the large number of American football, baseball and basketball players use steroids to enhance their performance on the field.

I'm not seeing anywhere near the same level of mandatory testing for football players when compared to pro-cyclists.

:fight:

Grant McLean
11-27-2007, 11:57 AM
I think too much is being made of a sponsor who leaves.
Sponsors come and go in every sport, no news there.

Stapleton still owns the team right?

-g

e-RICHIE
11-27-2007, 12:00 PM
what will the team kit say atmo?

Climb01742
11-27-2007, 12:03 PM
slipstream's chances of getting a tour invite just keep getting better and better.

swoop
11-27-2007, 12:03 PM
I hope other sponsors pull out as well. The sport is a joke and needs reform. Hit em where it hurts.


maybe you're new to the sport.. but there was a team called Festina you might want to look up.

t-mobile isn't pulling out to seek high moral ground. they're pulling out because guys are getting caught and its bad marketing for them. if a non doping stance was important to them from the get go.. the team would not have had systemic doping.. nor would they have had results... nor would they have chosen clearly doped riders.

the sponsor entered a sport knowing full well how it works so long as they're insulated from the reality and get the results the need...they're fine. win on sunday, sell on monday.
believe me the marketing guys at tmobile that were spending millions were well aware of the sport they were investing in.. and its frankly irresponsible of them to leave now that its time to pay up for investment.

if non-doping was their cause, the team would had be been set up differently from the get go and the roster would have been different too. i'd rather have seen tmobile admit their responsibility in the culture of doping and commit to making a template that makes it more difficult and more an individual decision for riders to dope than to pander to their consumer base and feign innocence.

its an insult to any fan with a brain and a model of sponsor behaviour that doesn't work (hence the festina reference).


at the level of being a rider d-1 in europe.. you make it sound like there's a choice not to dope when really the choice is to leave the sport. it isn't like racing here.
atmo.

Dave B
11-27-2007, 12:09 PM
what will the team kit say atmo?


Ride High?


Kits will be in a leafy green.

Should make for some great preseason "get togethers" and team bonding.

Mud
11-27-2007, 12:10 PM
When baseball was making its comeback no one "asked". Now it has the moral high ground because it is healthy.

There are no illusions. It is about winning. If T Mobile could win without getting caught they would be in the game. Discovery pushed their luck to the end. While there was no proof there was a cloud with the Spanish investigation. It was time to pull the plug.

corky
11-27-2007, 12:11 PM
parts will be supplied by Toke(n)....

bzbvh5
11-27-2007, 12:27 PM
Ride High?

Kits will be in a leafy green.

Should make for some great preseason "get togethers" and team bonding.

Their bike frames could be the Calfee bamboo with the hemp lugs. Hopefully, the no frames will be lost during the season.

gdw
11-27-2007, 12:34 PM
Save it Swoop. You're stating the obvious just as I'm about to. Pro cycling is a pathetic joke.

saab2000
11-27-2007, 12:41 PM
Save it Swoop. You're stating the obvious just as I'm about to. Pro cycling is a pathetic joke.

After Andrei Tchmil retired the sport lost the last hard man and any interest for me. These new guys are a bunch of pansies.... :D

Anyway, getting the big money out might have the effect of letting the real cyclists and passionate followers back in.

How 'bout a pro cycling team actually sponsored by a bike manufacturer? Or a relatively local business? Not to become the biggest thing, but just because.

Remember Peugeot? Or Bianchi-Campagnolo teams?

It wasn't perfect back then by a long shot, but I am still trying to figure out of the Mondialisation of the sport via the multi-nationals has really improved it. I don't think so.

SWorks4me
11-27-2007, 12:55 PM
After Andrei Tchmil retired the sport lost the last hard man and any interest for me. These new guys are a bunch of pansies.... :D

Anyway, getting the big money out might have the effect of letting the real cyclists and passionate followers back in.

How 'bout a pro cycling team actually sponsored by a bike manufacturer? Or a relatively local business? Not to become the biggest thing, but just because.

Remember Peugeot? Or Bianchi-Campagnolo teams?

It wasn't perfect back then by a long shot, but I am still trying to figure out of the Mondialisation of the sport via the multi-nationals has really improved it. I don't think so.

Tchmil was/is a major hard ***...crafted from the molds of Kelly, Roche, Adri van der Poel

I like the idea fo getting back to industry trade teams...or even national teams sponsored by manufactures. I know it won't happen...but we would see who the real racers are as they duke it out for a 40k/yr contract.

I am glad there are DS like Stappleton.

sevencyclist
11-27-2007, 12:56 PM
I think the economy of cycling is slightly different from other American spectator sports. In US Baseball/Football, the sponsors of teams, let's say Giants with Barry Bonds, are the spectators who pay to go to stadium to see him hit homeruns as well as those who buy shirts/posters etc. There is no big company such as Discovery or T Mobil that pays Giants or Yankees. The team owners decide based on how much they spend vs how much they expect to get from spectators who funds regardless of doping. In Cycling, there are no income generated from spectators who actually sees the events lining the side of the roads. The money for the teams came from advertising value perceived by the sponsoring firms rather than actual dollars received by those firms. All of these values are hard to quantify for the sponsor, so if they perceive something bad such as doping is going on and is going to hurt the image, then they might pull out.

Discuss the follwing interesting statments: Adidas assumes that I will overlook their product because Jan doped and I will choose Nike instead because Lance does not. T-Mobil pulls out of cycling because they think I will choose Siemens Mobil because cyclist are dopers and Real Madrid players are not.

Grant McLean
11-27-2007, 12:57 PM
Pro cycling is a pathetic joke.

thanks for the news flash...

:rolleyes:

-g

I Want Sachs?
11-27-2007, 01:00 PM
How 'bout a pro cycling team actually sponsored by a bike manufacturer? Or a relatively local business? Not to become the biggest thing, but just because.


http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachscybc.html

ATMO

BumbleBeeDave
11-27-2007, 01:02 PM
http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachscybc.html

ATMO

. . . do you have to wait five years before they ride by? ;) :rolleyes:

BBD

Climb01742
11-27-2007, 01:03 PM
its frankly irresponsible of them to leave now that its time to pay up for investment.

bingo.

they knew the deal. they reaped the benefits. they_thought_they were insulated. if they truly cared about the sport and wanted to support a better future, they would still support stapleton. to bail is cowardice.

i'll be curious if another shoe is about to drop..."proof" that t-mobile the sponsor knew about doping and they are trying to do pre-emptive damage control.

Grant McLean
11-27-2007, 01:06 PM
bingo.

they knew the deal. they reaped the benefits. they_thought_they were insulated. if they truly cared about the sport and wanted to support a better future, they would still support stapleton. to bail is cowardice.

i'll be curious if another shoe is about to drop..."proof" that t-mobile the sponsor knew about doping and they are trying to do pre-emptive damage control.

"cowardice" ?

It's a business.

-g

David Kirk
11-27-2007, 01:15 PM
Georgie is riding for me next year. I told him I can guarantee that a broken steerer won't leave him sitting in the mud and he signed right up.

Dave

saab2000
11-27-2007, 01:22 PM
A steel frame with steel fork would have a lot of relevance in those spring classics.

ada@prorider.or
11-27-2007, 01:28 PM
Tchmil was/is a major hard ***...crafted from the molds of Kelly, Roche, Adri van der Poel




if you only knew!

J.Greene
11-27-2007, 01:30 PM
I think pulling out now is a chickensheet thing to do. I think it makes them look worse to do it suddenly then it would at the end of next year.

JG

BumbleBeeDave
11-27-2007, 01:31 PM
Georgie is riding for me next year. I told him I can guarantee that a broken steerer won't leave him sitting in the mud and he signed right up.

Dave

Dave . . . I just talked to George. He's backed out. He thought you said you were going to give him a "free airplane" as a signing bonus, not a free terra-plane. Sorry. :(

BBD

flux
11-27-2007, 01:54 PM
if you only knew!

Amen.

saab2000
11-27-2007, 02:01 PM
if you only knew!

I think we do know. But these guys were fun to watch. Unlike most of the current batch of Nascar-style, corporate-speak riders.

Cycling sold its soul when the major international corporations started wanting the control the whole thing. World Cup, now Pro Tour, etc.

Just my opinion.

e-RICHIE
11-27-2007, 02:01 PM
tchmil was a clomiphene addict atmo.

e-RICHIE
11-27-2007, 02:02 PM
Cycling sold its soul when the major international corporations started wanting the control the whole thing.
it never had a soul atmo.
they shoot horses, don't they (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_Shoot_Horses,_Don't_They%3F).

Grant McLean
11-27-2007, 02:07 PM
it never had a soul atmo.
.

Tour of Flanders, 1974: Walter Godefoot finished 3rd but was disqualified for doping. ...

-g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnl3px5v9HE

Fixed
11-27-2007, 02:12 PM
bro I just started reading the tommy simpson story ..I'll let you know how it turns out
cheers

J.Greene
11-27-2007, 02:13 PM
bro I just started reading the tommy simpson story ..I'll let you know how it turns out
cheers

That's funny!

JG

Volant
11-27-2007, 02:15 PM
Will anyone miss the Telekom pink color scheme?

saab2000
11-27-2007, 02:20 PM
it never had a soul atmo.
they shoot horses, don't they (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_Shoot_Horses,_Don't_They%3F).

I've never had my blinders on. But the sport has become much less interesting since the teams started looking like Nascar-style, corporate speak organisations and less like a group of cyclists trying to win bike races.

BumbleBeeDave
11-27-2007, 02:23 PM
Will anyone miss the Telekom pink color scheme?

Bill Bove?

BBD

Climb01742
11-27-2007, 02:25 PM
"cowardice" ?

It's a business.

-g

g, it is a business, yes, but there is a brave honest way to do business and there's a chickenshiite way to do business. being part of the solution is braver than being a we-don't-know-a-thing part of the problem.

swoop
11-27-2007, 02:35 PM
Save it Swoop. You're stating the obvious just as I'm about to. Pro cycling is a pathetic joke.

i don't agree... it simply is what it is... it just lacks the structure to perpetuate the fantasy. i love it for that very reason... i can't think of another sport that better mirrors real life.

Dave B
11-27-2007, 02:38 PM
i can't think of another sport that better mirrors real life.


Jerry Springer ATMO!!!!!! :D

J.Greene
11-27-2007, 02:46 PM
i don't agree... it simply is what it is... it just lacks the structure to perpetuate the fantasy. i love it for that very reason... i can't think of another sport that better mirrors real life.

So true, all I have to do is look around the office. We are surrounded by type A personalities who have cut corners and compromised themselves to get ahead, while the firms we work for look the other way while the profits are coming in. The bigger the hero the better. When things go wrong guess who gets fired? Sounds like cycling to me.

JG

swoop
11-27-2007, 02:52 PM
i really can't wait for classics season.. and could care less about the grand tours... except going to one as a vacation experience again. spinelli gave a great interview once to stolen underground.... and it sort of says everything i think as a fan...
if i can find it i'll link it.

all i know is that very single dude racing d-1 is a tough mother effer... and its really up to the sponsors and the team management to protect them from their own desires to deal...

and i don't think you or i can imagine what ts like to fight for position on some crap road in belgium with some ds threatening your life.... because there's hardly anything here that touches that.

when i was writing the movie i got to see a lot of the footage translated from inside the team car at the tour.... you wouldn't believe the mental torture these kids are put through by the ds.... we had to pull down the translations per the sponsor because the were too offensive....

its insanity. things like (said to a rider on the pavement): get up and chase back on or i will have my dog ef the mother of your g8d you f-gg-t c--nt..

i mean... intense ...

not that this makes it ok to dope... but its also not like there isn't a box of pills under the drivers seat.


i wish tmobile would have said as sponsor something like: we're culpable and as fans you are too... and while we won't tolerate bs.. were not going to spend all the money on salaries.. were going to run a smaller classics program and create a structure for a clean sport... we put it to the athletes and we want to set an example for fans to particiapte in sporting culture without denying their own desire for fantasy. and we recognize that we as sponsors drive the sport.

that's something i would have felt some brand loyalty for... but you know grant's right as always.. sponsors come and go. its a shame the new cleaner kids coming up are effed for a job.

musgravecycles
11-27-2007, 02:53 PM
Will anyone miss the Telekom pink color scheme?

Yes.

Swoops on the money on this one.

Simon Q
11-27-2007, 02:58 PM
I think pulling out now is a chickensheet thing to do. I think it makes them look worse to do it suddenly then it would at the end of next year.

JG

I agree. Instead of being part of the fight, they are part of the flight. They could have at least departed in a less reactionary way to allow for a transition rather than leaving a heap of people trying to do the right thing potentially without a job when 2008 teams are settled. They could also have gained great exposure by backing the sport for change.

As an aside, a friend works in marketing for CSC. He is not respoonsible for sponsorship but CSC feels that it gets great brand awareness for the investment and it is not like doping in cycling is new.

saab2000
11-27-2007, 03:01 PM
and i don't think you or i can imagine what ts like to fight for position on some crap road in belgium with some ds threatening your life.... because there's hardly anything here that touches that.


its insanity. things like (said to a rider on the pavement): get up and chase back on or i will have my dog ef the mother of your g8d you f-gg-t c--nt..



That's the whole thing though. Cycling is and always has been a sport of knuckledraggers. It's not like some shiny, polished corporate billboard. Some folks (like Brunyneel) are able to work both sides of it. But it is like boxing. No joke. Tainted, quasi-legit sport that eats people alive. The directors are the 'grand old men' but most of the DSs are old racers and in Europe these dudes are not well-educated, articulate folks. It ain't a sport of the upper class over there. People should hear how the Swiss guys talk to each other. It sounds cool on TV to have guys speaking an unintelligable language, etc. But what they say to each other would make a drunken sailor blush. Probably just like in the trenches in the NFL or rugby scrums. :banana:

That's why people are offended by the reality of it when they are exposed to it.

BTW, I agree that the right thing for Deutsche Telekom to have done what have been to admit a level of culpability and say that starting now it is a new era. But how often have they all said, "zero tolerance"?

Too bad for the riders. But that's the way the ball bounces.

Len J
11-27-2007, 03:09 PM
g, it is a business, yes, but there is a brave honest way to do business and there's a chickenshiite way to do business. being part of the solution is braver than being a we-don't-know-a-thing part of the problem.

I agree with you....in this world..not so much.

Having worked in large multinationals, there were probably a small group that really know what was going on and most who didn't.........including, more likely than not most of the Board. As it became more and more public, the politics of the Board most likely took over and the big corporation does what it does best....cover it's a$$.

Their motivation is to maximize profits, they are their to enhance shareholder value. While your stance would do that for hardcore cyclists, it wouldn't do that for the larger part of their market......I have no doubt that there were many market studies done around this issue and this decision was based on those market studies.

They are doing exactly what they are paid to do......protect and expand their market. Not saying I wouldn't want to do what you suggest......just saying that I couldn't without a hell of a lot more power than anyone in T-Mobile probably has.

Len

Grant McLean
11-27-2007, 03:12 PM
I'm seriously surprised it took this long,
If I was T-mobile, i'd have moved on long ago.
Who needs this shiite? They're trying to sell phones,
not save the world from itself.

Sponsors don't sign on for moral fights. It's a business.
None of this stuff is personal. The T-mobile guys are involved
to sell their product, that's it.

The way some people talk, you'd think you need to fill out an
application before ordering a bottle of San Pellegrino, asking
you what you plan to do with it.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

-g

Grant McLean
11-27-2007, 03:18 PM
BTW, I agree that the right thing for Deutsche Telekom to have done what have been to admit a level of culpability and say that starting now it is a new era. But how often have they all said, "zero tolerance"?



Zero tolerance for riders or management?

What does it say when you hire a former rider as D.S. (Walter Godefroot) who has been disqualified
three times during his career because of doping?

Remember, he’s the doper who said doping was not a problem in cycling

“Refused to undergo doping tests at Paris-Tours in 1967, and also at Fleche-Wallone in 1974, and in the same year kicked out of the Tour of Flanders for use of amphetamines.”


-g

saab2000
11-27-2007, 03:21 PM
Zero tolerance for riders or management?

What does it say when you hire a fomer rider as D.S. (Walter Godefroot) who has been disqualified
three times during his career because of doping?

-g

Good point. But you know what I mean I think. Every time something happened they all canned the riders, washed their hands of it claiming ignorance and bleated to the public that they don't tolerate doping.

How any of them can claim ignorance is beyond me. And the soigneurs who break the law of Omerta are blacklisted.....

swoop
11-27-2007, 03:25 PM
grant's correct as well.... as soon as you participate in the corporate circus... you embrace that they are the pimp.. so you must be the ho... and you can't earn for them if flames are shooting out your every funbit.

tmobile's job is to make money.... the riders job is to make money too. im not sure where fairness fits in... seems like its lower on the list.

man.. life is messy, no?
where is don king?

Climb01742
11-27-2007, 03:27 PM
I agree with you....in this world..not so much.

Having worked in large multinationals, there were probably a small group that really know what was going on and most who didn't.........including, more likely than not most of the Board. As it became more and more public, the politics of the Board most likely took over and the big corporation does what it does best....cover it's a$$.

Their motivation is to maximize profits, they are their to enhance shareholder value. While your stance would do that for hardcore cyclists, it wouldn't do that for the larger part of their market......I have no doubt that there were many market studies done around this issue and this decision was based on those market studies.

They are doing exactly what they are paid to do......protect and expand their market. Not saying I wouldn't want to do what you suggest......just saying that I couldn't without a hell of a lot more power than anyone in T-Mobile probably has.

Len

len, grant and you are, of course, right. but i wonder if the equation is, maybe slightly, beginning to change. last night on the independent film channel there was a documentary on a couple who travelled across america looking at towns that were fighting the arrival of large, chain corporations. the three the film singled out were wal-mart, borders and starbucks, and the impact the arrival of those chains had on local retailers. i was surprised at how wide-spread the anti-chain feeling was. and the economic study done that revealed that... if a customers spent a dollar at a local bookstore, say, and not a borders, that dollar stayed in the local economy and had a 3-to-1 multiplier effect vs a dollar spent at a chain. we sure aren't there yet but i think customers are starting to judge companies on their ethics, as well as their products. you're right that it would have taken a courageous board member to say, let's fight the problem rather than run from it. but some day, the ethical choice might become the economic choice too. at least we can hope. on a small scale it seems to be working for patagonia.

saab2000
11-27-2007, 03:28 PM
where is don king?

Promoting boxing, cycling's long lost twin.

swoop
11-27-2007, 03:29 PM
oh, remember to check your kid's toys for lead paint... mattel cares about what's fair!

Fixed
11-27-2007, 03:30 PM
I'm seriously surprised it took this long,
If I was T-mobile, i'd have moved on long ago.
Who needs this shiite? They're trying to sell phones,
not save the world from itself.

Sponsors don't sign on for moral fights. It's a business.
None of this stuff is personal. The T-mobile guys are involved
to sell their product, that's it.

The way some people talk, you'd think you need to fill out an
application before ordering a bottle of San Pellegrino, asking
you what you plan to do with it.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

-g
bro nice
cheers
cheers

Grant McLean
11-27-2007, 03:30 PM
Good point. But you know what I mean I think. Every time something happened they all canned the riders, washed their hands of it claiming ignorance and bleated to the public that they don't tolerate doping.

How any of them can claim ignorance is beyond me. And the soigneurs who break the law of Omerta are blacklisted.....

I hear what you're saying.

But that was the bargin everyone signed on for.

It's the rider who gets caught.
Everyone DID tolerate doping, that's the whole point!
Claiming ignorance was the only way to sweep everything back under the rug.

Don't get me wrong, i'm as sick of all this stuff as anyone, and it's NOT fair
the riders get the short end.... but it's the deal that everyone made.
Nobody says you need to be a pro athlete. People who have their eyes closed
shouldn't be surpirsed by what they see when they open them...


g

Len J
11-27-2007, 03:33 PM
len, grant and you are, of course, right. but i wonder if the equation is, maybe slightly, beginning to change. last night on the independent film channel there was a documentary on a couple who travelled across america looking at towns that were fighting the arrival of large, chain corporations. the three the film singled out were wal-mart, borders and starbucks, and the impact the arrival of those chains had on local retailers. i was surprised at how wide-spread the anti-chain feeling was. and the economic study done that revealed that... if a customers spent a dollar at a local bookstore, say, and not a borders, that dollar stayed in the local economy and had a 3-to-1 multiplier effect vs a dollar spent at a chain. we sure aren't there yet but i think customers are starting to judge companies on their ethics, as well as their products. you're right that it would have taken a courageous board member to say, let's fight the problem rather than run from it. but some day, the ethical choice might become the economic choice too. at least we can hope. on a small scale it seems to be working for patagonia.

What people say they care about and what they are willing to spend higher prices on are, unfortunatly, two different things for all but the people who have the resources where the additional spending won't change their life.

The majority of people are just getting by.....and buying at a chain allows them to increase their spending power for their families.

Sad, but too true. Most people in this country can't afford patagonia.......they are a niche player catering to the affluent.

len

BumbleBeeDave
11-27-2007, 03:37 PM
. . . to Discovery walking away? With T-Mobile it's the corporate sponsor, but with Discovery it was the team itself--like High road walking away from T-Mobile instead of vice-versa.

While I don't agree with their actions, I can understand why a corporate sponsor would walk away. As others here have said, it IS a business decision. It doesn't really surprise me. But with Discovery it was the actual "sportsmen" themselves who bailed--including Lance--walking away when the sport needs good examples and loyalty and leadership the most to help clean things up. It just seems so cynical on their part.

When a sponsor like T-Mobile bails it just says to me they are normal businessmen. But when Lance & Co. bail, it seems to say, well something else, something darker. I'm just still trying to figure out for myself exactly what . . .

BBD

aLexis
11-27-2007, 03:37 PM
I hear what you're saying.

But that was the bargin everyone signed on for.

It's the rider who gets caught.
Everyone DID tolerate doping, that's the whole point!
Claiming ignorance was the only way to sweep everything back under the rug.

Don't get me wrong, i'm as sick of all this stuff as anyone, and it's NOT fair
the riders get the short end.... but it's the deal that everyone made.
Nobody says you need to be a pro athlete. People who have their eyes closed
shouldn't be surpirsed by what they see when they open them...


g

Especially the women's team. They are getting lumped in with all of this and will probably get pay cuts from their already paltry salaries.

Tom
11-27-2007, 03:37 PM
and buying at a chain allows them to increase their spending power for their families.
.

len

Short term, unfortunately.

Viper
11-27-2007, 03:38 PM
How will this impact some of my favorite commericals with Catherine Zeta Jones? :confused:

ATMO ATMO ATMO

Len J
11-27-2007, 03:39 PM
Short term, unfortunately.

I disagree........as the entire system gets more efficient, everyones spending power gets better........change is hard, but necessary.

Len

swoop
11-27-2007, 03:39 PM
Especially the women's team. They are getting lumped in with all of this and will probably get pay cuts from their already paltry salaries.
totally. my first thought was.. oh man.. the women are screwed.

Grant McLean
11-27-2007, 03:40 PM
len, grant and you are, of course, right. but i wonder if the equation is, maybe slightly, beginning to change. last night on the independent film channel there was a documentary on a couple who travelled across america looking at towns that were fighting the arrival of large, chain corporations. the three the film singled out were wal-mart, borders and starbucks, and the impact the arrival of those chains had on local retailers. i was surprised at how wide-spread the anti-chain feeling was. and the economic study done that revealed that... if a customers spent a dollar at a local bookstore, say, and not a borders, that dollar stayed in the local economy and had a 3-to-1 multiplier effect vs a dollar spent at a chain. we sure aren't there yet but i think customers are starting to judge companies on their ethics, as well as their products. you're right that it would have taken a courageous board member to say, let's fight the problem rather than run from it. but some day, the ethical choice might become the economic choice too. at least we can hope. on a small scale it seems to be working for patagonia.

nice post.
I don't see it as an ethical or moral fight, it's about self interest in the longer term.
Like that movie Demolition Man, where after the 'restaurant wars', there is only
one chain let, and it's Taco Bell ...
Where is all this stuff going, you know? There is an article in NYT today on
how Tiffiny is sueing Ebay for counterfeit goods, and it had me thinking,
just what do all these luxury brands do when the whole world is knee deep in goods
that people finally realize that nobody really needs.

Every Pro sport is really just as grotesque as every other form of excess.
It's out of balance, out of control, and a really bad metaphor for life.
Just like business.

-g

Fixed
11-27-2007, 03:43 PM
How will this impact some of my favorite commericals with Catherine Zeta Jones? :confused:

ATMO ATMO ATMO
nice frame
imho
cheers

swoop and grant you cats are the best imho
cheers

Climb01742
11-27-2007, 03:51 PM
What people say they care about and what they are willing to spend higher prices on are, unfortunatly, two different things for all but the people who have the resources where the additional spending won't change their life.

The majority of people are just getting by.....and buying at a chain allows them to increase their spending power for their families.

Sad, but too true. Most people in this country can't afford patagonia.......they are a niche player catering to the affluent.

len

true but one fascinating example in the film was a small town in the great plains that banded together and started their own "merc", a cooperatively owned mercantile department store that is jointly owned by the townspeople and the town. they created their own store rather than shop at walmart. and these folks were farmers. at least as shown in the film, the movement is broader than the well-off. it was very much a "bottom-up" movement.

it's a small step but a step nevertheless.

Len J
11-27-2007, 03:53 PM
true but one fascinating example in the film was a small town in the great plains that banded together and started their own "merc", a cooperatively owned mercantile department store that is jointly owned by the townspeople and the town. they created their own store rather than shop at walmart. and these folks were farmers. at least as shown in the film, the movement is broader than the well-off. it was very much a "bottom-up" movement.

it's a small step but a step nevertheless.

it will be interesting to see if this survives...........I've heard of this before, but very few have proven sustainable.

Len

gt6267a
11-27-2007, 03:54 PM
on a small scale it seems to be working for patagonia.

not certain i understand what is working for patagonia. how many people buy their goods for some ethical reason Vs buying the products because they are good? how do you know what consumers are in which camp?

Viper
11-27-2007, 03:56 PM
true but one fascinating example in the film was a small town in the great plains that banded together and started their own "merc", a cooperatively owned mercantile department store that is jointly owned by the townspeople and the town. they created their own store rather than shop at walmart. and these folks were farmers. at least as shown in the film, the movement is broader than the well-off. it was very much a "bottom-up" movement.

it's a small step but a step nevertheless.

Wolverines!!!

Viper
11-27-2007, 04:17 PM
The sport of cycling is going through what we see in business, it's a self-correction. T-Mobile's disconnect is an example of this. Can the WWF survive with fit 200lb wrestlers and not 235lb juiced freaks? The market will dictate. Can Hank Aaron's homerun record be re-instated? Track and Field, will the Olympic viewers turn away? Ashlee Simpson on SNL? We need to see Team 7-11 return, Big Gulps are much bigger nowadays and the team would rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-8912irTLo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUli8vf3Bjw

Tom
11-27-2007, 04:25 PM
What's efficient about shipping six foot tall plastic Christmas inflatable lawn ornaments 6000 miles so they can lay across the grass like enormous used condoms all day?

Don't kid yourself. People aren't buying flour and beans from a centralized merchant, they're buying plastic garbage and the money is flowing out of town. When they're bled dry, the store closes up and they are blessed with a parking lot and an empty concrete hulk and the property value drops into the ground. That's after the town has given them tax breaks to bring them in. Where do you think those tax revenues get made up from? The poor bastards lining up to buy underwear twenty cents cheaper than it used to be. Meanwhile, Main Street rots out like a crack addict's three remaining teeth and the faraway chain owners get ever richer.

Viper
11-27-2007, 04:34 PM
What's efficient about shipping six foot tall plastic Christmas inflatable lawn ornaments 6000 miles so they can lay across the grass like enormous used condoms all day?

Don't kid yourself. People aren't buying flour and beans from a centralized merchant, they're buying plastic garbage and the money is flowing out of town. When they're bled dry, the store closes up and they are blessed with a parking lot and an empty concrete hulk and the property value drops into the ground. That's after the town has given them tax breaks to bring them in. Where do you think those tax revenues get made up from? The poor bastards lining up to buy underwear twenty cents cheaper than it used to be. Meanwhile, Main Street rots out like a crack addict's three remaining teeth and the faraway chain owners get ever richer.

And what's done is done and so hard to undo; America has lost the abilty to manufacture because the Corporations eeked out an extra 20% profit by sending manufacturing to Mexico, then found abother 20% profit by going to Asia.

We conjure up the next video game, or widget, then have it made overseas. The only things we truly make any more are profits for our companies, carbon waste and movies; Hollywood will never die. I'm looking for a Faema or Molteni colored Felt frame.

SWorks4me
11-27-2007, 04:36 PM
if you only knew!


Actually I do know...

I long for the glory days of those guys...a cracked clavicle would not have sidelined King Kelly. Roche practically killed himself to stay in the tour and take the jersey. Tchmil, well...'nuff said.

You may know them personally Cees, but knowing of them and meeting them...i will never forget.

I will not miss the pink, mauve, magenta whatever color jersey of tmobile

the team should HAVE accepted some blame, come out to say we are stepping away for a time and hope to return soon. We tried to aid in the cleaning of the sport. blah blah...

Euro DS need to go away...make room for the new breed. Riis (okay bad example), Stappleton, Vaughters, Bruyneel (ok another bad example) but you get the point.

I don't know where I am going with all of this, other than to say...as flawed and effed up as pro cycling is, domestic and international, it is still my sport, my first passion...I love it, and live and die with it.

"ride for your dinner son...ride!"

ada@prorider.or
11-27-2007, 04:53 PM
I don't know where I am going with all of this, other than to say...as flawed and effed up as pro cycling is, domestic and international, it is still my sport, my first passion...I love it, and live and die with it.

"ride for your dinner son...ride!"


well i still there to despite off all just love the sport
but seen things is that money is the most important for certain people !!!!

Karin Kirk
11-27-2007, 04:57 PM
not certain i understand what is working for patagonia. how many people buy their goods for some ethical reason Vs buying the products because they are good? how do you know what consumers are in which camp?

I'm not sure that it matters which customers buy their stuff for which reason. As long as the company can demonstrate that it can achieve the simultaneous goals of being a successful company and also giving some money back to the environment and make "green" products, then they are successful.

Patagonia seems to be one of the few makers of outdoor gear that hasn't been bought up and conglomerated. And every year they come up with more innovative ways to make their stuff eco-friendly. So by my casual observations, they are succeeding.

Viper
11-27-2007, 04:57 PM
They're firing Catherine Zeta Jones too. The company (DT) seems to be doing well, claims it's dropping the team due to it's drug scandals, but had Jan won the yellow jersey last year and brought T-Mobile more profits, I imagine they'd keep reprensentation of the squad.

As for Catherine Zeta, they dropped her and the $10M she pimped out yearly:


http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115923297434173806-MhwUTXKGBvVjSs_kJoPkTnTXM3Q_20061026.html?mod=tff_ main_tff_topl

http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=DT

Len J
11-27-2007, 05:07 PM
What's efficient about shipping six foot tall plastic Christmas inflatable lawn ornaments 6000 miles so they can lay across the grass like enormous used condoms all day?

Don't kid yourself. People aren't buying flour and beans from a centralized merchant, they're buying plastic garbage and the money is flowing out of town. When they're bled dry, the store closes up and they are blessed with a parking lot and an empty concrete hulk and the property value drops into the ground. That's after the town has given them tax breaks to bring them in. Where do you think those tax revenues get made up from? The poor bastards lining up to buy underwear twenty cents cheaper than it used to be. Meanwhile, Main Street rots out like a crack addict's three remaining teeth and the faraway chain owners get ever richer.

by your hate I think.........The majority of Wal Mart's sales and profits come from clothes, hardware food and drugs and toiletries.......basic staples of getting thru the week.

The Majority of Borders is from Books & Music

I think these were the examples given.......and i don't think too many of these have shut down and blessed with an empty parking lot.

Look, just to be clear, I don't shop at W/M, I buy my books mostly from local B/S's.......I do believe in keeping money local......but, & this is the point I'm trying to make here, I have been blessed with relative affluence, the majority of people in this country have not been. To them, These places are a godsend.

By efficient I mean that they have driven inefficient costs out of the system and saved consumers money. Why can W/M ship stuff 6,000 miles and still sell it cheaper than your local retailer? Because they have cut out the inefficiencies of middlemen, because they can buy in bulk, because they need to make less on each unit.........like it or not, it saves the average American Consumer money.

And AFAIK, no one is forcing them to shop there.

Len

Len J
11-27-2007, 05:10 PM
I'm not sure that it matters which customers buy their stuff for which reason. As long as the company can demonstrate that it can achieve the simultaneous goals of being a successful company and also giving some money back to the environment and make "green" products, then they are successful.

Patagonia seems to be one of the few makers of outdoor gear that hasn't been bought up and conglomerated. And every year they come up with more innovative ways to make their stuff eco-friendly. So by my casual observations, they are succeeding.

I agree.....but it has to be understood that they appeal to those with more disposable income than most americans. They survive because they are innovative and have captured a niche that are both able and willing to pay a premium for what they have to offer (not unlike our hosts here).

Their model can not be used a general model, IMO, for the marketplace because most people can't afford the premium.

Len

stevep
11-27-2007, 06:54 PM
the t-mobile demise will devastate the economy for pro bike racers.

thats for sure.

it's very, very late for those guys and women to get gigs for next year.
every team is long ago filled.

flux
11-27-2007, 07:17 PM
the t-mobile demise will devastate the economy for pro bike racers.

thats for sure.

it's very, very late for those guys and women to get gigs for next year.
every team is long ago filled.

Steve,

From what I have read everyone still has a job. Paycuts might occur though.

Viper
11-27-2007, 07:21 PM
Steve,

From what I have read everyone still has a job. Paycuts might occur though.

Zeta Jones got fired.

atmo

Grant McLean
11-27-2007, 07:26 PM
Zeta Jones got fired.

atmo

oh no, what ever will she do?

:)

-g

stevep
11-27-2007, 07:27 PM
Steve,

From what I have read everyone still has a job. Paycuts might occur though.


yeah,
but subtract 8 million for a 13 million dollar business and you get a lot of trouble for the riders.
will ne interestign to see how it works out.

stevep
12-01-2007, 06:34 PM
yeah,
but subtract 8 million for a 13 million dollar business and you get a lot of trouble for the riders.
will ne interestign to see how it works out.

ill correct myself here.
t-mobile had to pay $50 million euro to break the contract.
thats enough cash to float that thing for 3 seasons and see how it goes.
recent news from germany.

paczki
12-01-2007, 07:12 PM
ill correct myself here.
t-mobile had to pay $50 million euro to break the contract.
thats enough cash to float that thing for 3 seasons and see how it goes.
recent news from germany.

That explains why the riders were so confident in Bob Stapleton keeping the team afloat, or at least a good part of why. I was wondering.

e-RICHIE
12-01-2007, 07:15 PM
stapleton - facial hair = bruyneel atmo.

swoop
12-01-2007, 07:19 PM
bruyneel+ fat= saiz

e-RICHIE
12-01-2007, 07:20 PM
atmo + hair = paul newman

zeroking17
12-01-2007, 07:28 PM
atmo + hair = paul newman


Cue the hairloom joke.