handbuillt wheel with king hubs or mavic krsyriums

[hooverone]

I am looking at either MAVIC Ksyrium SSC SL Rear Wheel '04 or a handbuilt set of wheels from Speed Dreams using Chris King hubs.

I weigh 210 and want a strong wheel that rolls quick, light and does not go out of true easily, this will be my everyting wheel.

Any suggestions?


Jim

[bostondrunk]

easy choice, speed dreams, or build yourself a pair with chorus/ul;tegra hubs and mavic rims.

[hooverone]

OK so if speeddreams are the way to go and King is supposed to make a great hub is the excellent hub worth the tradeoff of the Kings being a noisy hub when freewheeling?

I do not know anyone with king hubs but I have heard they are very when freewheeling, I would not personally mind but when riding in a group how annoying are they? And would it give too much away like I do not want everyone to know when I am freewheeling but I guess it might not really matter.


Jim

[saab2000]

but beware that the King hubs are SUPER DUPER loud! Also, just because they are King that does not mean that they will make a better wheel than if they were Shimano 105 or Campy Centaur.

I cannot make a recommendation, but the King hub will not make the wheel better, even though it is likely a very good quality hub.

FWIW, most people have had good luck with the Ksyriums. But if you have bad luck it can be really bad. They are under a lot of tension and if you break a spoke it is the end of the ride and the end of that wheel until Mavic can fix it. A Handbuilt wheel can be repaired more easily and quickly.

Just my $.02..... :beer:

[vaxn8r]

A buddy of mine had a run in with a cat. No kidding. It got trapped between his front Ksyrium wheel and the fork blade at at least 25 mph. We were going downhill when the cat attacked. It was pretty ugly and the fur was flying. Anyway, he kept the bike up until the very end before endoing.

The front spokes on that side were all bent and cracked a bunch of nipple eyelets. I can't believe the wheel stood up to that. Anyway he popped his brake open a bit and rode 30 miles back to the shop for a new wheel. Shop fixed his wheel and he's back on it, good as new.

I think these wheels are tougher than many give credit.

[hooverone]

So if King hubs are noisy and I am going to have a set of wheels built by Speed Dreams what hubs then? White hubs, Phil wood......

Looking for:
Fast roollling, light, strong, take some abuse, and good bearings, sealed of coarse...


Jim

[Ozz]

Looking for:
Fast roollling, light, strong, take some abuse, and good bearings, sealed of coarse...

Give this info to Dave and take his recommendation...it might be Chris King.

BTW - so what if it is noisy? don't stop pedaling.... ;)

[Serotta_James]

I actually have come to love the sound of my King hubs. But, the only time I am really not pedaling is when descending quickly - then I have more important things on my mind than how loud my hubs are.
I like my King/Open Pro wheels. I also like my Ks.

[bostondrunk]

Don't waste your money. Go to your LBS, tell them you want a wheelset built with:
Chorus hubs (or Ultegra if you ride ****mano)
32 hole open pro rims (or reflex rims if you want tubulars)
DT double butt spokes and alloy nips, except for drive side rear with br*** nips. Built 3 cross.

There, I just saved ya $300 and you'll be riding just as fast, on a more durable longer lasting wheelset. :beer:

[jerk]

king hubs suck. the dish is horrible. you will effectivly end up with a 16 spoke rear wheel no matter what stupid lacing tricks your builder uses. the jerk is sure the fonr thuib is fine but the rear road hub is another example of a product with one fatal flaw that makes it functionally worse than the cheapest shimano road hub. get the ksyriums or some race x lites. the days of handbuilt wheels are over untill someone makes a high quality offset rim for the rear wheel. if you must use handbuilts, get some hugi 240s and build the rear straight laced on the non-dirve side. the spoke tension will end up being pretty even.

jerk

[Too Tall]

Geeze, I was JUST about to chime in when my (drunk) cousin up north read my mind. Ditto. Geeze we are using these Hugi's on a TANDEM no less!!! They are bulletproof, easy to service and butter smooth. Kings have a panache' of sorts and don't suck. They are absolutely fine jewelry (wink wink). Got no problem with them if YOU are OK with servicing them every 2500 to 3000 miles...which is too much for me. They are not loud and if anyone says they are than the ring drive mech is dry. Mine hummm, not even a discernable click. He** the Hugi's are louder!

Dave Thomas is cool and in fairness I'd ask you give Joe Young consideration. I am a fan of both. This season I am riding a set of tubs from Dave Thomas....I call them my salad shooters due to his creative use of (sharp!!!) shaped spokes...pretty awesome build.

[hooverone]

Too Tall what hubs did you have Dave use on the wheels you recently got from him the salad shooters?


Jim

[jeffg]

will give you less dish (at least for clinchers). As for hubs, stick with standard Shimano/Campy unless you spring for White Industries hubs (sensible flange spacing, good hub).

As for prebuilts, how about Campy Eurus? I think the Bontragers would be good, but I think the G3 spoking gives an even stronger rear wheel if you are hard on stuff.

[hooverone]

so the king hubs do not have a good dish to them when built, I have never heard this before and I am not sure king would make a prodcut that is not good.

From my experiece and what I have read about King they are a good bunch of people making great products.

Do the rear wheels built will king hubs really s...k ?


Jim

[bfd]

Don't know about Bontrager wheels, but if you're looking at Mavic Ksyrium or Campy wheels like Eurus/Neutron, take a look at the cost of a replacement rim and spokes before you buy. Its my understanding that Mavic K replacement rims start at something like $150; Campy replacement rims are more. Spokes are proprietary, so that's also going to cost.

Have a wheelset built up around shimano or campy hubs using db spokes and ride!

[93legendti]

I am riding my 2 pairs Speed Dreams (on my Ottrott and Strong 6/4 DB Ti)instead of my Mavic Ksyrium SSl's. I feel Dave's wheels are lighter, as stiff, and spin up quicker.

[hooverone]

Did you get the AR-20's with the white industrusty hubs.


Jim

[bulliedawg]

Dave built me a set of wheels.

Rims: AR20's

Hubs: White on the front and World Class on the rear.

Spokes: 20 DT Bladed on the front; 32 on the back, non-drive DT Bladed, drive-side something stouter.

Weight: 1,460

I think they're terrific wheels. Came to them from some Cane Creeks, and will never look back.

[93legendti]

They were a new set Dave was working on. Velocity Aerohead rims (offset spoke holes in the back), Hugi 240 rear hub, AC Micro front hub. 18 ovals in the front. 28 spokes in the back..ovals and d/b's. I believe they weigh 1380 grams or so...

[CarbonTi]

I still roll only on handbuilts constructed by me. Run Campy Record or Chorus hubs on rear wheels almost exclusively, except one Chris King rear road hub which runs Shimano 9-speed on a bike with indexed down-tube shifters (Campy everything else though).

The dish is no worse on the CK than on the Campy rear hubs using the eyeball method. Trying for more precision. the specs for the hub flange spacing don't support the case for the dish being worse on the CK rear over that of the Campy (or Huigi) hubs. All modern 9 or 10 speed wheels are pretty severely dished. Most component hubs have right flange spacings within <2mm of each other so it's even between brands as far as minimizing dish. In the wheel game even 1.5mm of favorable flange spacing is "a good thing".

Radial lacing (even heads out) on the non-drive side isn't how you build the rear if the priority is more even spoke tension between left and right. Increasing the cross on the left reduces the lateral angle of the spoke from the rim to the hub flange thereby requiring more tension to center the wheel.

As long as your wheel builder knows his stuff, you'll be OK. The available component mix for handbuilts may not be as whiz-bang as the proprietary parts used in factory-builts but it's not junk either. And short of ADA's or Lightweights, IMO the factory-builts don't offer a quantum leap over what can be craftsman (or hack - OMG) built.

[Zoomie80]

Folks, I currently have K SLs on my '03 Legend; like 'em alot but want another set of wheels (broke a rear drive side spoke on the Ks and it took my bike out of commission for a week while LBS fixed the wheel).

I'm looking at Open Pro/32H, Chorus hubs, 15/16DB spokes front, 14/15DB spokes rear, alloy nips, laced 3-cross. I weigh 185 lbs and want to spend no more than $400 total.

I want wheels with a smooth ride, spins up quickly, and durable. What can I expect out of this new wheelset in terms of the three desired characteristics? What other lacing pattern should I consider, if any, and what is the benefit? Are there other spokes (14/17) and spoke combinations (14/17 and 14/15 in rear) I could/should use? What's the difference between 14/17 and 15/16 spokes in terms of strength and ride and durability?

'Preciate your thoughts...

Thx!!
Zoomie

[FierteTi52]

Here is a description of Excell Sports Cirrus hand built Wheel set for $349.00:

"Designed as a light-weight and durable training wheel. The only thing that surpasses the quality of this wheelset is the value!

Hand-built by our DT Certified Master Wheelbuilders
Hubs: Dura-Ace 32 hole
Rims: Mavic Open Pro Black
Front: DT Revolution 14/17g spokes with Alloy Nipples laced 2 cross 716g
Rear: Drive-Side: DT 14/15g spokes with Brass Nipples laced 3 cross
Non-Drive-Side: DT Revolution 14/17g with Alloy Nipples laced 3 cross 954g"

The wheels are a good value. I'm considering a pair myself.
Jeff

[93legendti]

Folks, I currently have K SLs on my '03 Legend; like 'em alot but want another set of wheels (broke a rear drive side spoke on the Ks and it took my bike out of commission for a week while LBS fixed the wheel).

I'm looking at Open Pro/32H, Chorus hubs, 15/16DB spokes front, 14/15DB spokes rear, alloy nips, laced 3-cross. I weigh 185 lbs and want to spend no more than $400 total.

I want wheels with a smooth ride, spins up quickly, and durable. What can I expect out of this new wheelset in terms of the three desired characteristics? What other lacing pattern should I consider, if any, and what is the benefit? Are there other spokes (14/17) and spoke combinations (14/17 and 14/15 in rear) I could/should use? What's the difference between 14/17 and 15/16 spokes in terms of strength and ride and durability?

'Preciate your thoughts...

Thx!!
Zoomie

I have a pair that came with my Serotta Ottrott, exactly like you specify, except they have Shimano D/A hubs. $250 shipped, less 150 miles, comes with Hutchinson carbon tires.

[Jeff N.]

I run black King hubs laced to CXP-33 rims, with silver nipples and 15/14/15 black spokes laced 3-cross fore and aft. They're superb, bomb-proof hubs, and certainly do NOT suck. I have thousands of miles on mine with no truing issues or adjustability issues whatsoever. They have a sort of "whine" or "buzz" to them when free wheeling that sounds like a Stuka dive bomber going in for a bomb run. I'll admit, the noise takes some getting used to. I'm always having other riders saying, "Whats that noise?" or, "You have something in your wheel", or some such thing. So then I tell them its the King rear hub and that the teeth in the pawl carrier, or whatever, are very, very fine. Thats why the noise.There is absolutely no short hesitation when you begin pedaling like there is with nearly any other rear hub...you are instantly engaged.They are compatible with Shimano only, of course. So if you're a Campy fan ( and I certainly hope you know by now that DA-10 rules) you're SOL. I can HIGHLY recommend them, noise notwithstanding. Jeff N.

[Dr. Doofus]

Dear Serottans:

What happened to the cat?


Your Humble Servant,

Dr. D. Dofus, Esq.

[vaxn8r]

Here is a description of Excell Sports Cirrus hand built Wheel set for $349.00:

"Designed as a light-weight and durable training wheel. The only thing that surpasses the quality of this wheelset is the value!

Hand-built by our DT Certified Master Wheelbuilders
Hubs: Dura-Ace 32 hole
Rims: Mavic Open Pro Black
Front: DT Revolution 14/17g spokes with Alloy Nipples laced 2 cross 716g
Rear: Drive-Side: DT 14/15g spokes with Brass Nipples laced 3 cross
Non-Drive-Side: DT Revolution 14/17g with Alloy Nipples laced 3 cross 954g"

The wheels are a good value. I'm considering a pair myself.
Jeff

I got sucked into that "good value" a few years ago Jeff. Within a year I had broken 3 spokes on the rear and had to have the entire wheel rebuilt. By the 2nd year the front had to be rebuilt because it wouldn't hold true. Mine were Record hubs, Open Pros and DT Revolutions. I wouldn't wish those wheels on my enemy. Probably the last thing I ever ordered by mail. Taught me a lesson....what do you do when your mail order wheelset starts going bad? Pay $35 in postage each way each time? Not for me...

[flydhest]

Folks, I currently have K SLs on my '03 Legend; like 'em alot but want another set of wheels (broke a rear drive side spoke on the Ks and it took my bike out of commission for a week while LBS fixed the wheel).

I'm looking at Open Pro/32H, Chorus hubs, 15/16DB spokes front, 14/15DB spokes rear, alloy nips, laced 3-cross. I weigh 185 lbs and want to spend no more than $400 total.

I want wheels with a smooth ride, spins up quickly, and durable. What can I expect out of this new wheelset in terms of the three desired characteristics? What other lacing pattern should I consider, if any, and what is the benefit? Are there other spokes (14/17) and spoke combinations (14/17 and 14/15 in rear) I could/should use? What's the difference between 14/17 and 15/16 spokes in terms of strength and ride and durability?

'Preciate your thoughts...

Thx!!
Zoomie

Zoomie,

Those'll be good wheels. Part of it depends on how you ride, how much you ride, and how hard you are on gear. I'm about to swap out an Open Pro on the rear of a set I've had for over 3 years. They've got about 25K miles, but a lot of the miles have been commuting through downtown DC streets . . . not pretty. I broke the rim. Cracks around the eyelet, spoke pulling through. I'm currently a touch over 190, have been up to 220 and down to 185 while I've had these wheels. I think if you have them built by someone who knows what they're doing and don't ride hard on crap consistently, they'll last a long, long time. Once I build up my 'cross wheels, these will likely see no more commuting duty, so with my rebuild I anticipate them lasting a long, long time.

14-17 in front is fine, but it won't save that much weight so I find it a wash. I would definitely go for brass nipples at your size--my preference, I'm hard on my toys.

[flydhest]

I got sucked into that "good value" a few years ago Jeff. Within a year I had broken 3 spokes on the rear and had to have the entire wheel rebuilt. By the 2nd year the front had to be rebuilt because it wouldn't hold true. Mine were Record hubs, Open Pros and DT Revolutions. I wouldn't wish those wheels on my enemy. Probably the last thing I ever ordered by mail. Taught me a lesson....what do you do when your mail order wheelset starts going bad? Pay $35 in postage each way each time? Not for me...
wow, that sucks. The price is so good, though, I'm tempted to buy some and rebuild them myself to know that they were built right.

[FierteTi52]

I got sucked into that "good value" a few years ago Jeff. Within a year I had broken 3 spokes on the rear and had to have the entire wheel rebuilt. By the 2nd year the front had to be rebuilt because it wouldn't hold true. Mine were Record hubs, Open Pros and DT Revolutions. I wouldn't wish those wheels on my enemy. Probably the last thing I ever ordered by mail. Taught me a lesson....what do you do when your mail order wheelset starts going bad? Pay $35 in postage each way each time? Not for me...

Vaxn8r,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I have a pair of D/A, Open Pro, 14/15 butted spoke, alloy nipple wheels with many trouble free miles. I weigh 170lbs and I'm curious if a wheel built with Revolution spokes would be dependable. I have a close friend who builds all of wheels at my LBS, I will ask him.
Jeff

[Zoomie80]

Zoomie,

Those'll be good wheels. Part of it depends on how you ride, how much you ride, and how hard you are on gear. I'm about to swap out an Open Pro on the rear of a set I've had for over 3 years. They've got about 25K miles, but a lot of the miles have been commuting through downtown DC streets . . . not pretty. I broke the rim. Cracks around the eyelet, spoke pulling through. I'm currently a touch over 190, have been up to 220 and down to 185 while I've had these wheels. I think if you have them built by someone who knows what they're doing and don't ride hard on crap consistently, they'll last a long, long time. Once I build up my 'cross wheels, these will likely see no more commuting duty, so with my rebuild I anticipate them lasting a long, long time.

14-17 in front is fine, but it won't save that much weight so I find it a wash. I would definitely go for brass nipples at your size--my preference, I'm hard on my toys.


fly--
Thanx for your insight. I think I'm pretty easy on my bikes and wheels...I avoid potholes and edges as much as possible and anticipate the impacts on the wheels. I'm also in the DC area so I can relate to the roads but the roads in the District are just plain brutal on wheels.

Interesting point about the brass nipples and will definitely factor them into the decision. Did you ever have problems with them rounding off?

Cheers,
Zoomie

[Zoomie80]

I have a pair that came with my Serotta Ottrott, exactly like you specify, except they have Shimano D/A hubs. $250 shipped, less 150 miles, comes with Hutchinson carbon tires.

Wow...wish there was a way to fit my Campy cassette on the DA hubs. How do the wheels ride? Do you have Ks also for comparison?

Zoomie

[coylifut]

I know this has been covered before, but if you are going for hand built wheels, have them hand built in your local community. Just about every town with a sizeable population has a local wheel building ace. The standard rate for a quality set of wheels, built with either DA or Chorus hubs, should run about $450. Yes, you can get them cheaper mail order, but what's the real long-term cost of ownerhsip. A good wheelsmith normally provides free truing and spoke replacement. I have one extra rear wheel and any time it goes out of true, I drop it off and it's trimed up for free. Well, it's not free, I paid for it when it was originally built. I always have a completely true set of wheels on my ride. This is necessary for me because although I'm sub 160 lbs, I'm murder on wheels. I use a set of Ks for races that I don't ride to.

One of the stranger trends I have noticed is people using super expensive wheels on group rides. I attended a ride a couple months ago where I was one of very few with basic wheels. One guy had a nail go all the way through a Conti Competition and a Zip 404 rim. Ouch.

[vaxn8r]

Very good advice!

[Too Tall]

Hooverone, I sent him an old set of DA hubs. The tub wheelset is an attempt to match the gold standard in clincher wheelsets eg. Open Pro 32s with DA/Ultegra/Chorus. He used a Velocity Escape rim. So far so good.

Zoomie - You've almost described the basic "onsaleallthetime" wheelset from C.C. and if you ride Campag. 9 spd. will have no problem running a ShimaNo cassette. C.C. build quality is excellent, I've used them for my commuter wheels for uh....like....8 yrs.

[flydhest]

Zoomie,

I have not had problems with brass rounding off, but have deformed my share of alu nipps. I would have to be watching tv and talking to my wife while truing to round off brass whereas with alu just watching tv would do it. With either, if you pay sufficient attention, it should be fine, but looking 5 years out, I'd rather have brass.

[sevencyclist]

I have a pair of Kings handbuilt by Citycycle of San Francisco, and I needed frequent adjustment of the hub. I have the Speeddream wheels built with Hugi 240s and they are hassel free, light, and stayed true. I highly recommend them.

[PsyDoc]

...the new generation American Classic rear hub. The nondrive side flange has been moved inward. I have a set built up by Mike Garcia at www.oddsandendos.com with DT Swiss RR 1.1 rims, Wheelsmith DB spokes, and aluminum nipples...the wheelset was 1444 grams and cost $410. The rear wheel does not look like it has ANY dish and the DT Swiss rims are not offset.

[Ozz]

...the new generation American Classic rear hub. The nondrive side flange has been moved inward. I have a set built up by Mike Garcia at www.oddsandendos.com with DT Swiss RR 1.1 rims, Wheelsmith DB spokes, and aluminum nipples...the wheelset was 1444 grams and cost $410. The rear wheel does not look like it has ANY dish and the DT Swiss rims are not offset.

PsyDoc,

How do you like the DT RR 1.1 rims?

I have a pair I have not built up yet...maybe a project for this winter.

[PsyDoc]

They appear to be well-built and ride quite well, though the ride is a function, in part, of the spokes and lacing used. This is the first set of rims that I have owned that have wear indicators on them. I also have a pair of the IRD cadence rims (28 front; 32 rear) that I was going to build up, but looks like I am going to sell them instead...no real time to build them.

[Kevin]

I love my Speed Dreams with White Industries hubs. I don't like my Ksyrium SSls. The Speed Dreams are fast. The Ks are harsh.

Kevin

[Too Tall]

PsyDoc& Ozz, keep us posted on the DT rims. Design and reputation caught my eye and thinking they will prove to be excellent for the long haul. Thanks.

[hooverone]

king hubs suck. the dish is horrible. you will effectivly end up with a 16 spoke rear wheel no matter what stupid lacing tricks your builder uses. the jerk is sure the fonr thuib is fine but the rear road hub is another example of a product with one fatal flaw that makes it functionally worse than the cheapest shimano road hub.
jerk

So the king hubs with an oc rim like the velocity usa rim would be good?

http://www.velocityusa.com/

Look at the OC rim

How can you tell when a hub has dish that is inadequate?


Jim

[marle]

I too weigh 210 lbs and love my MAVIC Ksyrium SSC SL front and rear wheelset.

[dirtdigger88]

I have both, I like both. I would not say one is better than the other- I would say they are different. The K's are "stiffer" but the OP's are more "comfortable" I use quotes because it is all relatitive. I say buy both and swap every couple of rides. That's what I do. :p

Jason

[BigMac]

Hoover:

Using an assymetric drilled rear rim like the Velocity is certainly a better choice for the King hub, but using a C/S hub with assymetric rear rim is even better yet. The "Jerk" is spot on with his assessment of King hubs, they are WAAAAAY overpriced and poorly designed. Not to sound crass but I believe the kids would call these poser hubs, no?

You are far better off using an Ultegra hub, your wallet will remain considerably more plentiful which in my book is always a fine thing. If you absolutely, positively must spend money on 'bike jewelery' hubs, at least buy well engineered ones. Sounds like you are running a Shimano drivetrain thus you may choose Phil Wood hubs, they do not offer a Campy spline mode and. Yes they are stronger and better engineered than anything Shimano with a flange design that will result in better spoke tension balance. Honestly, unless you are really big and very hard on wheels, this is an excercise in overindulgence. The White Ind hubs are also superb, sharing nearly identical flange design as Phil, they are however even pricier though a few grams lighter as well -- if you believe lightweight hubs contribute anything on an unsuspended bicycle.

For rims, get to your local Trek/Lemond shop and order a set of Bontrager rims. The Aurora is name of 20mm width clincher rim. It is available assymetric drilled, just like the Velocity, only its uses a FAAAAR more reliable MIG welded joint and is $20-30 less $$! $39 retail for the best clincher rim ever...if only they offered a sewup rim of same design.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[dgauthier]

I am looking at either MAVIC Ksyrium SSC SL Rear Wheel '04 or a handbuilt set of wheels from Speed Dreams using Chris King hubs.

I weigh 210 and want a strong wheel that rolls quick, light and does not go out of true easily, this will be my everyting wheel.

Any suggestions?
Jim

If you want a wheel that does everything, a good hand built is hard to beat. Stick with tried and true: 14/15 spokes laced 3 cross, brass nipples, and at least 32 spokes front and back. Also - though the rest of the forum will think I'm somehow insane for suggesting this - at your weight consider 36 spokes in back. You won't notice the weight or drag of the 4 extra spokes, but you will notice the extra strength and stiffness.

Oh, and . . . listen to your forum mates, and have your hand builts made locally.

The jerk is right about dish being a problem, but that problem is inherent in all 9 and 10 speed rear wheels these days, not just hand builts. You can compensate for this by using an offset rear rim, and the Velocity OC Aerohead you mention is a good choice.

While Chris King makes a good set of hubs, IMHO a nice set of DuraAce hubs (I assume you're running Shimano since CK won't work with Campy) will work just as well, and save you loads of cash. The few grams saved won't make any difference. When the wheels spin up, you'll feel the weight of the rims, but not the hubs.

[bostondrunk]

I've built several shimano 9 and campy 10 rear wheels on normal open pro rims, as well as NOS tubular rims (Fir, Ambrosio, etc.), and I've never had too much problem getting proper dish. All those wheels have stayed pretty damn true.

[93legendti]

So if King hubs are noisy and I am going to have a set of wheels built by Speed Dreams what hubs then? White hubs, Phil wood......

Looking for:
Fast roollling, light, strong, take some abuse, and good bearings, sealed of coarse...


Jim

My Speed Dreams have Hugi rear hubs.

[hooverone]

Hoover:

Using an assymetric drilled rear rim like the Velocity is certainly a better choice for the King hub, but using a C/S hub with assymetric rear rim is even better yet.
Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

What about the dt swiss hubs, how are they dish wise? And if the dealer is not a trek dealer than another other suggestions on an assymetric rim?

C/S hubs = campy shimano?

Jim

[hypnos]

While I'm no expert on hubs or wheel building, I'm very happy with my dt swiss hubs. My rear wheel was built with a Hugi 240 32 hole hub, dt competition spokes and Open Pro rims. The local mechanic who built them laced the wheel 3x on the drive side and 1x on the non-drive side. The front wheel is 28 spoke 2x. These wheels rock..... 7200 miles and still perfect.