OT - Anyone take the new computer based MCAT last year?

[zank]

Any fledgling med-school applicants out there? I have taken the paper and pencil MCAT, but I have been advised to retake it to improve my score. It's been a few years since I took it last time and I am looking for some feedback on the computer based version. The schedule looks much more compact, which is great.

So any feedback from the field? Has anyone out there taken both? Better? Worse?

Thanks!

[thwart]

Man, I think I'd stick to your day job. How long is your wait list for frames... ? :D

Just kidding. Lemme guess... sports medicine, maybe? Or... orthopedic surgery... lots of tools. ;)

[zank]

I'm giving very serious thought to going for an MD/PhD, with the PhD in physiology. I have always been fascinated with A & P. But I am very open about what to specialize in. There are so many different areas that interest me. But my wife says that the exposure you get in the clinical years of med school really gets you honed in on what you certainly DO NOT want to do. :rolleyes:

[Dekonick]

How about DO?

[Skrawny]

Hey Zank
I took the MCAT old school style back in 1994. I was then the first group to take the Boards Step 1, 2, and 3 on computer. For those tests the computer rocks, & was much better than any written tests I've taken. Can't talk much about the computer MCAT, though.

If you want the 411 on admissions, however, I can help. I was on the admissions committee of my med school for a few years. I did not, however, get an MD/PhD.

-s

[Bud]

I don't know anything about the MCAT specifically, but I do know a few things about computer adaptive testing (CAT) or what is commonly known as "computer based tests." These tests are preferable to one size fits all paper and pencil tests, in my opinion. The item set that is presented to the respondent is "customized" based on their responses to previous items. This allows for a potentially more accurate estimate of the respondent's ability along the construct of interest.

There have been a lot of advancements in CAT's over the last 10 years or so. The measurement models used to estimate ability and select items are pretty robust. I think they're the way to go for situations such as yours, and for other large-scale, high-stakes testing such as the GRE, SAT, etc. (Don't ask about my opinion on large-scale, high-stakes testing for accountability purposes in K-12 schooling. Let's not go there).

[Dave B]

Man, with all of the drugs being detected go into sports psychology. Pros are going to need their own version of Tin Cup.

Ball Sate in Indiana is a great school for that.

we can ride together! :D

[Dave B]

Any doctors here work or know people in the ENT field at UCONN hospitals?

My sister-in-law is in her first year of residency and I would love to know how she is doing and keep a watchful eye on her. She is brillant and I have a psuedo big bro for my wive's twin sisters.

She is a bad-a$$ athlete (marathons with no training) and would make an even better cyclist.

[Skrawny]

Any doctors here work or know people in the ENT field at UCONN hospitals?

Nope, I'm a Left Coaster in cardiology.

-s

[thwart]

But my wife says that the exposure you get in the clinical years of med school really gets you honed in on what you certainly DO NOT want to do. Yikes! Does this mean soon there (hopefully) will be 2 docs in the family? That's a little tough to do well. Atmo.

[rinconryder]

Hey Zanc,

How old are you? Just asking because I was thinking about going to med school as well, but at 30, I felt like I was a little too old to make such a move, especially since I would have to go to postbac pre-med program and take all my pre reqs. I would be curious to hear about your decision, especially since you seem to have a bright future in frame building.

[tbushnel]

I was then the first group to take the Boards Step 1, 2, and 3 on computer.

lucky :)

For those tests the computer rocks, & was much better than any written tests I've taken.

I would say the same about specialty and subspecialty board examinations. The computer testing centers provide a really nice environment and the software they use is very user friendly. I wouldn't give it a second thought. I would worry about content or testable material. Good luck.

Cheers,
TEd.

[zank]

Hey Zanc,

How old are you? Just asking because I was thinking about going to med school as well, but at 30, I felt like I was a little too old to make such a move, especially since I would have to go to postbac pre-med program and take all my pre reqs. I would be curious to hear about your decision, especially since you seem to have a bright future in frame building.

Rincon, I am 31. My wife is in her final year of her anesthesia residency and will be doing a fellowship beginning next August. My plan is to (hopefully) start when she finishes her fellowship. I also have to go back and do my pre-reqs. It is kind of a bummer because I got As in chem, orgo, physics, bio and English my first time around. But you have had to have taken them within 4 years of when you apply. So mine are null and void. It will be a little odd being in class with youngsters who just had their senior prom 3 months prior!

This has been my plan since I finished with my undergrad degree. But it slid out this far because Rebecca and I thought it would be best for me to start when she finished her residency. We only go around this rock once. Better late than never. How bad do you want it? ;)

[Archibald]

It was easy. I just entered "Chuck Norris" as the answer to every question. Aced it.

[zank]

I don't know anything about the MCAT specifically, but I do know a few things about computer adaptive testing (CAT) or what is commonly known as "computer based tests." These tests are preferable to one size fits all paper and pencil tests, in my opinion. The item set that is presented to the respondent is "customized" based on their responses to previous items. This allows for a potentially more accurate estimate of the respondent's ability along the construct of interest.

There have been a lot of advancements in CAT's over the last 10 years or so. The measurement models used to estimate ability and select items are pretty robust. I think they're the way to go for situations such as yours, and for other large-scale, high-stakes testing such as the GRE, SAT, etc. (Don't ask about my opinion on large-scale, high-stakes testing for accountability purposes in K-12 schooling. Let's not go there).

Hi Bud,
Unfortuantely, the MCAT is not a CAT. It is still based on the same rules as the paper and pencil exam. You can skip around and the questions are all pre-determined. But maybe the computerization of the exam may eventually lead to a complete overhaul. The nice thing is it took an 8 hour marathon and squeezed it into 4.5 hours by getting rid of all the wasted time passing out booklets and waiting for people to read instructions. Heck, you don't even have to take the lunch break or any breaks between sections if you don't want to! :beer:

[zank]

It was easy. I just entered "Chuck Norris" as the answer to every question. Aced it.

He is the man, Archi. He is the man.

[J.Greene]

[QUOTE=zankWe only go around this rock once. Better late than never. How bad do you want it? ;)[/QUOTE]

Funny, I know a few docs and other professional types who'd like to become a framebuilder. I think it's cool what your doing atmo.

JG

[gasman]

Zank-

Anesthesia is great ! I love it even 20 years after finishing my fellowship.
All my old test had been pen and paper, but the recert exam I did 2 years ago was computer based. No problem, just have to know the material. BTW you are not too old if you are doing what you love.

[jhcakilmer]

Zank,
Do you want to go to UMASS? I did my first 3 years of undergrad at Atlantic Union College up in Lancaster, and worked in a Molecular Genetics lab at UMASS med for two summers, also dated a medical student from there. I don't know how much it cost now, but back in 1998 it was $8500/ year.....which is serious bargain.

Also, are you sure you want to do an MD/PhD? The professor I worked for at UMASS had a MD/PhD, and didn't really find that it gave him any advantage. That dual degree takes a long time, but as you probably know it's subsidized.....so no money out of pocket.....just 7 years of your life.

I'm in a DO program and I love it. The medical training is excellent, but there is very little opportunity for research experience. I have many years of research training and a MS in neurophysiology........but not my cup of tea! Only took me 8 years of school to tell me that....yikes!

As for the MCATs, I'd recommend taking a prepatory course (Kaplan, Princeton, etc). The content of the exam is very basic, but the exam is long, and you have to learn to pace yourself. I winged it the first time and got a 24, then took the online Kaplan course (10 weeks), and raised my score to a 31, which I was happy with. It got me into several MD and DO schools, and gave me choices......so from my experience, it's worth the $$.

[zank]

Yes, UMass is my first choice. Maybe someday, if I decided to do anesthesia, Rebecca would be my attending when I am a resident. I will try hard not to be insubordinate :)

The reason I want to do the PhD is I really enjoyed research while doing my undergrad and I really enjoy teaching. I originally considered a PhD in chemical engineering as a potential path, but I knew by junior year that wasn't for me. But I did some tutoring and TA work in college, and I did some lectures in my last technical role at GE Plastics. So I want to have the PhD in case I end up at a teaching hospital where I may have the opportunity to do some teaching.

All of this is a pipe dream at the moment. I was advised that I need a 35 on the MCAT since I am a fair ways out of college. June 13th looms ominously on the horizon.

Gasman, your screen name now makes perfect sense. :)

[jchasse]

Just don't be starting med school until after you build my bike, mkay? :cool:

[zank]

LOL! I won't be starting before January. Which reminds me. We need to talk over the next couple of weeks. :beer:

[CNY rider]

Here's my totally unsolicited opinion, since you never asked for it:

The MD/PhD track is largely a waste of time.
Given that you are starting at this later than most, you need to decide what it is you want to do, then plot a path that gets you directly there.
If you want to see patients for a career, just get your MD. If you want to see patients and do clinical research on the side, you still only need your MD. If your heart is really in being a lab researcher, then just get your PhD and forget about taking care of patients. Don't waste another bunch of years chasing a few extra letters on your diploma.

Teaching opportunities abound these days in medical schools. You do not need a PhD to teach medical students. I'm in an academic hospital, with resdiencies but no med school, and I could never avail of all the opportunities to spend time teaching. There wouldn't be enough hours in the day to teach and do my real job, which is caring for cancer patients.

[zank]

I certainly appreciate the insight, especially from someone who is in the profession. Nothing is set in stone yet and I will take all of this information into consideration. Please, keep the advice coming. The more information I have to weigh, the better!

[DukeHorn]

I know a few MD/PhDs.

My brother in law got the cover of Cancer Cell with his research for his PhD (at Mt. Sinai in NYC). He swept all the research awards during his internal medicine residency, but he's sticking with medicine (mainly because my sister wanted to do research with her PhD so he has to be the breadwinner). But it does seem like a waste of his PhD to now be an internist.

I know another MD/PhD who was a spinal cord surgeon/instructor and now is working on a stem cell spinal cord therapy. That's a good mix of the two degrees.

Generally I'd agree with CNY Rider about picking one that suits your career goals (and that's an unsolicited opinion as well :D)

One of my fellow lawyers got his BS at the Naval Academy in Mechanical Engineering, got a Master's in Electrical Engineering???, then got a Phd in EE, an MD and then a JD. Both of his daughters were lawyers before he got his JD (now that's just crazy).

[vaxn8r]

Here's my totally unsolicited opinion, since you never asked for it:

The MD/PhD track is largely a waste of time...
I have to agree on this. Neither track is optimal for what you'll end up doing. Every Md/PhD I knew wanted to only do research. Plenty of MDs teach. Researchers are generally annoyed with patient care atmo. Long gone are the days when a subspecialist would have the med students and residents see all the patients while he/she did all the billing while tucked away in the lab writing proposals and injecting rats, only to make a brief appearance for morning rounds once a day.

There were two people in my class that were in their 50's. I thought it odd but I wouldn't judge them for following a dream.

[Retinadoc]

I totally agree with the above. The skill sets to be a researcher vs. a clinician are very different. Early on I decided I really wanted to work with patients. Bench work progress was painfully slow and academic politics frustrating. If you are at all a people person, clinical medicines despite all the nonsense of HMO's, Medicare, and malpractice is still incredibly rewarding. On a given day, I know that I will save someones sight and make a real difference for them and their family. Several of my riding companions are NY investment bankers. They go to work each day, hate what they do, and rationalize it all that it is worth the money.

Judging by the care and detail that you put into your frames, you will make a wonderful physician. Follow your dreams, and keep making bicycles so I can get one!

[zank]

Everyone, thank you again for the insight. I knew I could get some valuable information here!

Happy Thanksgiving!

[djg]

If you want the 411 on admissions, however, I can help. I was on the admissions committee of my med school for a few years. I did not, however, get an MD/PhD.

-s

I did my time reading applications too -- glad that's over.

Sorry I have no real advice to offer Zank -- never got an MD, I'm just a Phake Doktor.

If you go for it -- and hat's off to ya -- keep an open mind about specialties and subspecialties. As with things non-medical, people often get drawn to things for very general reasons, either intellectual, emotional, or both. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but the nuts and bolts of things -- and the day-to-day -- are often very different from what one would imagine.

To repeat (if maybe downsized) some of the other advice -- I know folks who've done very well with an MD/PhD, but you don't need a PhD to teach if you have an MD, and the right MD program, maybe coupled with a post doc, can equip you to do either clinical or basic research. Even as someone who loved grad school, and never got an MD, I still say you might want to skip the PhD if you want to combine medical practice with research. If, on the other hand, you really want to be a scientist, you might go straight for the PhD -- adding an MD might add to your salary at many institutions, but there's quite an up front opportunity cost, not to mention tuition, and as you're not a kid fresh outta college, you've got less time to amortize those costs.

[sevencyclist]

I never took MCAT, on paper or computer, since I was able to place out of it :) , but I took Internal Medicine Boards recently on computer and found that to be fairly good. Lower stress since you are not in the big room setting with hundreds of people all stressing out.

I do some Med School and residency interview at Stanford, and MCAT scores gets you to the interviews, but once there, you are on your own. I would imagine your experience building bikes would be a great asset, IMHO.

As for MD/PhD, more than half of the students at Stanford ended up on that track. I think for pure clinical practice, the PhD does not help at all except to get someone into residency and fellowship of their choice. The usual popular/famous ones tend to look favorably on MD/PhDs. The other benefit of MD/PhD is that funding seems to be more abundant than those with only PhD.

I have a couple of classmates from med school who are very involved in Med education at UMass. When you are applying, let me know and I can perhaps connect with them. As medicine clerkship director, I know there are a lot of important backroom phone calls that happen for residencies, so whatever helps. Good luck.

[shinomaster]

you going to med school?

[scrubadub]

Just to throw in a little bit of disagreement, I actually find the computer-based testing to be more painful than paper. While it's really nice to do things at your own pace sitting in a computer center, for some reason I find it harder to think when looking at things on the screen. I'm fairly computer-savvy (and used to program) but for some reason, it's just easier to mark things up on a piece of paper.

I recently took Step 2CS on the computer. It wasn't too bad, but I would have jumped at the chance to take it on paper instead. Nonetheless, I think the key to these tests is to get used to taking tests on the computer and learn to use the tools. A computer highlighter isn't quite the same as paper highlighter in my mind for some reason. I think back when I took the MCAT (on paper), the Kaplan QBank was the standard but more recently I used USMLEWorld which was very helpful. The key was that the interface was basically the same as the actual test (as were the contents).

I'm just about to start residency interviews and graduate (hopefully) this coming June from Stanford (hi sevencyclist!). I don't think your age is that big an issue - I know a number of people in their 30s and 40s who are in medical school. One of my friends was a lawyer for many years before coming back to school and she is just starting residency in her late 40s. I find that those who come to the game later often bring a lot of maturity and perspective.

With regards to the MD/PhD track, that's a really personal thing. I actually applied MD/PhD at first and then decided to only pursue my MD. The old adage was that you could choose two of the three following, but not all three: good researcher, good clinician, or good family person. That said, I do think that having the MD training really changes your perspective, so even if you're interested in just teaching and research, your clinical experience will make your teachings more relevant. And just because you have an MD/PhD doesn't mean you have to do residency if it turns out research is your thing. It's a long haul though. An MD/PhD is not a great route if you are still waffling between the two. You should know (at least for interviews and your application) how and why both together are what you want to do.

Don't stress about your MCAT scores - there are plenty of people who do well and get great interviews with lower scores. The key to applying for a person who has been out of school for awhile is to be able to justify and explain why you want to go to medical school and why now.

[Skrawny]

I have met a few research docs who have appropriately used the MD/PhD degree at the NIH and at UCSF.

Other then them, however, the majority of MD/PhDs do not use the extra letters in the title. For clinical research and education the PhD is not very important. The PhD does not give you a higher salary. However, if you REALLY want to do bench research, the PhD may give you skills you need. The most important thing to do is look at what you want to do closely & speak with researchers in the field you are interested in.

I know one guy who was all proud of how he was saving money on his education because he was in an MD/PhD program and got stipends and tuition relief throughout training. What he didn't calculate into it, however, is the extra years of salary he missed because of his extra years of training.

-s

[maunahaole]

Main question has been forwarded to a friend who is in first year med school. Give me a few days for an answer.

[jmg1949]

With regards to the MD/PhD, it really depends on what you want to do with your life. I received a PhD in Neurobiology and then did post-doctoral research for several years. Ultimately ended up going to med school when I was 34 and finally finished training in Neurology when I was 41. The MD/PhD route makes most sense if you're quite sure you want a career combining clinical work and research. Certainly the plus side of the MSTP program is that you get a free ride for med school and the doctoral program, usually with a very nice stipend to boot. I've ended up in private practice but certainly don't regret my days in the lab. Think about how much time you want to spend doing this. Can't comment on the new MCATs as I took them in 1982 with a #2 lead pencil. Good luck.

Your bikes are beautiful by the way.

Jim

[Dekonick]

Rincon, I am 31. My wife is in her final year of her anesthesia residency and will be doing a fellowship beginning next August. My plan is to (hopefully) start when she finishes her fellowship. I also have to go back and do my pre-reqs. It is kind of a bummer because I got As in chem, orgo, physics, bio and English my first time around. But you have had to have taken them within 4 years of when you apply. So mine are null and void. It will be a little odd being in class with youngsters who just had their senior prom 3 months prior!

This has been my plan since I finished with my undergrad degree. But it slid out this far because Rebecca and I thought it would be best for me to start when she finished her residency. We only go around this rock once. Better late than never. How bad do you want it? ;)

Nah - it will be just as easy to get an A the second time around - and the repeat exposure will help reinforce the information. The only crummy part is needing to repeat the labs... jusa PITA IMHO

Go for it - My sister didn't start medical school until she had already worked for Baxter for a few years, gone back to school to get a masters, and then decided she wanted to start all over. She was the ancient in class as well while she obtained her basic sciences - 30 with the 19 year old kids...

Now she is in private practice and glad she went back. Go for it - just build me a frame first! :D