OT: Solar power residential?

[Z3c]

Hello,

Anyone have experience with having a solar system added to their home? I am pondering adding it to a house in Tucson, don't really know much about it though, like the environmental aspect as well as the reduced elec. bill.. Seems like a "right" sort of thing to do.

I would really appreciate any guidance from someone who has been there already.

Thanks,

Scott

[konstantkarma]

I have not switched over to solar/alternative energy sources yet, but I have been considering several options. Our house is in a deciduous forest and oriented wrong for any direct passive solar system. In Tucson you will have any option you want, although cooling will generally require kilowatts, and that means photovoltaics or wind. BTW, we used to live on Sabino Canyon Road, and loved it there!

I have learned a lot from this web site. Lots of alternatives, and plans. Several engineering types have included statistics on actual projects etc.

http://www.builditsolar.com/

[J.Greene]

Our last house had a solar heated pool. The solor panels were located on the roof. The house was cooler as the heat was constantly being carried away. It was a neat side effect.

JG

[SadieKate]

Many years ago, we had solar water. I loved it. Our gas bill in the summer would be about 6 cents - even with two cyclists' laundry and showers. I'd have it in a heartbeat again.

[thejen12]

I've had solar PV panels on my house for over 6 years. Here in CA we have net metering - the electricity I generate goes out on the grid and runs my meter backwards. I don't have a battery backup because my power is quite reliable and we rarely have outages, plus it takes a lot of power to keep the batteries topped off. I also love the fact that the solar panels keep my attic about 10-15 degrees cooler - a real plus in the summer.

The whole system is pretty much unnoticeable, in that there is nothing going on in the house that would let you know if you had solar installed or not, everything operates as usual. Our inverter did break once, and we would not have noticed it (until we got our bill!) if we did not check it periodically. I like to take a reading every week and keep it in a spreadsheet to see how we're doing, so I was able to pinpoint pretty much what day it broke. It was an early model and was repaired for free - it seems it had a known problem.

The only maintenance we have is to clean off the panels once in a while, some people probably don't even do that (I'm not sure it really makes a difference).

Your electric bill probably shows how many kilowatt hours you use each month. The first thing you want to do is to reduce that number as much as possible before buying your solar system so you don't have to buy too much. I replaced two old refrigerators with one new one before I got the solar panels and cut my monthly kwh usage in half, but then, we don't use all that much electricity anyway. So look for some areas to increase your efficiency - replace some light bulbs with cfls, replace that old appliance you've been thinking of, examine your phantom loads.

After that, get a few estimates. Try to find someone who knows the ropes regarding permits and will also help you apply for whatever credits are available in your area and the state and fed. I don't know what's available now, I did mine so long ago.

The sooner the better because you're basically paying for 30+ years' electricity up front, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to put it off, in my opinion. I've only had an electricity bill two months out of the past 6 years - one was the first winter before I'd built up any bank, and the other was after the inverter broke, because it took a couple of months to diagnose and fix it.

Jenn

[BarryG]

In Tucson you will have any option you want, although cooling will generally require kilowatts, and that means photovoltaics or wind.
Nah, not in the desert. Evaporative cooling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler) , baby :banana:

[Birddog]

The sooner the better because you're basically paying for 30+ years' electricity up front, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to put it off,

And therein lies the rub. You need to crunch some numbers and make some projections to see if it is economically viable unless you just want to spend some money and feel better about yourself. Wind and solar power on a personal level can be really loaded with expenses on the front end. Performing an energy audit and making some appropriate changes based on same may make far more economic sense but it won't have the cachet of "Solar Power".

I saved about 1/3 (perhaps even 1/2) on my summer cooling bills (in a relatively moderate summer) by installing a new more efficient heat and air system. I'm anxious to see the results for the winter.

Birddog

[Tom]

I was in Florida for a conference. It struck me how hot the sun was in October. Heading back to the airport we passed mile after mile of new house and condo construction. Not one had PV, all had AC.

I kind of wish I was in the solar business and I could install politicians the way the oil companies do so the government would mandate solar on all new construction.

So what if we don't take 100% off the load? Take off 30%. Start somewhere, no?

[Birddog]

I kind of wish I was in the solar business and I could install politicians the way the oil companies do so the government would mandate solar on all new construction

They kind of did that in the late 70's early 80's. There were all kinds of inducements for the "solar Industry" in the form of credits etc. It spawned many new co's, it lasted for about 10 years and then it all fell apart like a house of cards when the credit programs ran out. The basic economics of it just weren't there. In some respects, the wind initiative looks to be the best reasonable cost option right now, and it's pretty darn expensive.

When you are out riding, take notice of the "photo voltaic" installations that seem to make sense. In this neck of the woods, they are frequently mounted on gate openers and many are seen on gas and oil pipelines where they provide the energy for the sensors etc. I also see them on equipment that monitors water levels in streams. It's (the industry) coming along slowly but surely. When they can get the price of the photovoltaics down to a reasonable level, it will take off.

Birddog

[Richard]

"There were all kinds of inducements for the "solar Industry" in the form of credits etc. It spawned many new co's, it lasted for about 10 years and then it all fell apart like a house of cards when the credit programs ran out. The basic economics of it just weren't there."

I suspect that if the tax incentives that are in place for the oil, gas, coal and centralized utility industries were eliminated, the basic economics would be more than "there."

[Tom]

It isn't twenty years ago. If we took some of the three trillion we're spending overseas and spent even a fraction of it on promoting PV tech development I bet we'd make out a lot better in the long run. Hell, if the US became the world leader in the technology we might actually have a product to export.

[1centaur]

I kind of wish I was in the solar business and I could install politicians the way the oil companies do so the government would mandate solar on all new construction.

So what if we don't take 100% off the load? Take off 30%. Start somewhere, no?

The government forcing new home buyers to overpay for utilities does not sound very wise to me. Understand that when I was in high school (70s) I was jumping up and down about solar and have long thought that the country that figures it out first will be in great shape. I have always feared it would be Japan, given their hydrocarbon importation %.

That said, solar economics are very unattractive vs. competing sources, period. The government can induce people to pay up with tax incentives, or can raise the price of the cheaper energy forms in various ways to force solar into cost competitiveness (thus trashing a lot of people's ability to save money for their future), or rising energy prices can get us there naturally over years, but realistically solar power will not be huge until it fairly cost competes. If there were solar mandates now, there might not be enough raw materials to support demand, nor enough solar factories. Any reasonable estimate of solar production over the next decade will leave it a very small part of the equation, unfortunately.

Unless there is a huge technological breakthrough for PV. Plenty of well funded people are looking for that breakthrough, and government mandates or research funds would not help. It's obvious how great it would be to cut oil dependence and help global warming, so there's plenty of incentive out there in private industry to make PVs as attractive as possible.

BTW I do think the market for homebuilders choosing to install PV on new homes in sunny climates is interesting, since that approach self-selects those willing to overpay (and those too dumb to know they are overpaying) in order to accrue various psychic benefits (I've actually been daydreaming lately about overpaying, though I worry that the person I sell my home to in 5 years would not pay me the full value). There was a development like this in Sacramento that sold out quickly.

We'll get there, but not soon enough, and not through simple mandates. Tax incentives and good net metering rules seem like the rational approach to the extent one can justify the taxation on the grounds of shared benefit.

[Birddog]

If there were solar mandates now, there might not be enough raw materials to support demand, nor enough solar factories.

Yeah, and the whole deal would probably work about as well as the "low flush" toilets that Congress mandated, what 10 years ago? Many (if not all) still don't work right. I'm no scientist or engineer, but somehow I don't think "double clutching" the toilet saves a helluva lot of water.

Birddog

[Dekonick]

Economies of scale

If PV were produced en masse, they would be cheaper. If you tried to make a gasoline engine in lots of 1000 or less it would cost a heck of alot more to build a car compared to building 1000000 engines.

If it were code that every house had to have solar - say 1kw per 1000sp ft or whatever - it would become extremely cheap to have it on your roof - and the infrastructure to maintain it would follow. Sometimes a little push is a good thing.

Dek

I have looked at installing PV on my roof, but have too many trees for now. When more of 'em go (disease etc) I will consider installing some PV or solar heat.

My father in law made a good point - PV is good, but solar AC makes more sense - where there is sun we use electricity to cool, but using an evaporative closed solar system would probably bring more bang for your buck.

That was mentioned earlier in the thred.

Happy thanksgiving all!

Dek

[Tobias]

When you are out riding, take notice of the "photo voltaic" installations that seem to make sense. In this neck of the woods, they are frequently mounted on gate openers and many are seen on gas and oil pipelines where they provide the energy for the sensors etc. I also see them on equipment that monitors water levels in streams. It's (the industry) coming along slowly but surely. When they can get the price of the photovoltaics down to a reasonable level, it will take off.

BirddogMost if not all the installation I've seen are very small and at remote locations (like flashing warning lights along the side of the road) where the cost to run electrical power lines would be more expensive. In these cases I have to think the justification is not energy savings as much as lower initial capital investment.

[Tobias]

Economies of scale

If PV were produced en masse, they would be cheaper. If you tried to make a gasoline engine in lots of 1000 or less it would cost a heck of alot more to build a car compared to building 1000000 engines.
.........snipped..........My father in law made a good point - PV is good, but solar AC makes more sense - where there is sun we use electricity to cool, but using an evaporative closed solar system would probably bring more bang for your buck.

That was mentioned earlier in the thred.

Happy thanksgiving all!

DekDek, there is a point of diminishing returns for a given technology, and the major problem with solar cells is not in the volume. It's like saying that if Ford and GM got together and used the same engines that the cost would be much lower. It really wouldn't because they already make so many. What's more important is that the engines would still be the same efficiency even if made in larger quantities at a single factory. And that's the problem with PV; they are not as efficient as they need to be.

As for solar A/C, if you live in a dry climate, I think it's an excellent idea. However, in much of the US it wouldn't work well because of the high relative humidity during summer. And although absorption A/C can do the job OK in humid areas, the initial capital cost is prohibitive.