OT: Robb Report on Watches

[rounder]

I am hotel bound in TX and went next door to Barnes and Noble to look for a bike mag. I saw a stack of new Robb Reports on watches and flipped throuh to see whether there were any articles on RGM watches (there were none but there was an ad for the Bozeman Watch Co.). The whole magazine was all watches and some of them hurt your eyes to look at them with all the diamonds (black diamonds even). I really didn't know what to expect...but you can tell that watch lovers have taken it to a really high level.

[Blue Jays]

Horology is certainly one of my other passions. I can't walk past a watch store without stepping inside to look.

[sevencyclist]

I personally do not appreciate the diamond laden watches. I prefer the watches with complex mechanism while appearing pure and simple. My favorite is the Blancpain Minute Repeater.

http://www.timetunnel-jp.com/BP_mr_ptyg.html

[vaxn8r]

I personally do not appreciate the diamond laden watches. I prefer the watches with complex mechanism while appearing pure and simple. My favorite is the Blancpain Minute Repeater.

http://www.timetunnel-jp.com/BP_mr_ptyg.html
+1

[shinomaster]

I have a cool Swatch with sushi on it.. :banana:

[A.L.Breguet]

I personally do not appreciate the diamond laden watches. I prefer the watches with complex mechanism while appearing pure and simple. My favorite is the Blancpain Minute Repeater.

http://www.timetunnel-jp.com/BP_mr_ptyg.html
.

[Climb01742]

agree. simpler, less flashy. my pick: steel case, black face:

http://www.panerai.com/s_page.xpd?id_lingua=2&id_sezione=15&id_categoria=33

[cs124]

...panerai...

...the term "desperately tasteful" comes to mind.

[Climb01742]

...the term "desperately tasteful" comes to mind.

ouch.
;)

[steve575]

I had a Panerai Luminor Marina for about a year. Very cool watch, I just couldn't get used to the size. It was very prone to banging into things, and I was always thinking about that.
There must be some kind of correlation between mechanical watches and lugged steel bicycles. Many people seem to have a passion for both.

[dbrk]

Panerai sells a few models for less than a modern carbon bike and others far past even my or your victory, a new crankset, or fancy wheels. I like that I can see it given my old eyes. I also own a Breguet (I've always wanted to meet our moniker'd pal A.L.) that seems to increase in value every year though I wear it about once a year. It's in my will to a friend's son. I have an interest in the history of time and its keeping mechanically, so I'm a sucker for these objects, especially the insides. While the complications don't often meet my aesthetics (I'm with Climb on this and my Italian heritage tugs on my Panerai preference), what the complications can do is often pretty darn amazing ---again on the inside of the piece. Look at a schemata of these things and it looks like a Godel equation or a page of Kalidasa. These watches aren't complicated as such, they are as simple as they need to be in order to accomplish their aims.

dbrk

p.s. of course, "complication" is a technical term in mechanical watches, something like "spin" for us...

[djg]

Panerai sells a few models for less than a modern carbon bike and others far past even my or your victory, a new crankset, or fancy wheels. I like that I can see it given my old eyes. I also own a Breguet (I've always wanted to meet our moniker'd pal A.L.) that seems to increase in value every year though I wear it about once a year. It's in my will to a friend's son. I have an interest in the history of time and its keeping mechanically, so I'm a sucker for these objects, especially the insides. While the complications don't often meet my aesthetics (I'm with Climb on this and my Italian heritage tugs on my Panerai preference), what the complications can do is often pretty darn amazing ---again on the inside of the piece. Look at a schemata of these things and it looks like a Godel equation or a page of Kalidasa. These watches aren't complicated as such, they are as simple as they need to be in order to accomplish their aims.

dbrk

p.s. of course, "complication" is a technical term in mechanical watches, something like "spin" for us...

I like the comparison to Goedel (sorry, no umlaut on my keyboard). It's not that the proof is so hard to follow -- rather, it's that something really cool and surprising is accomplished, something I wouldn't have thought of myself -- that, despite a certain level of complexity, really is quite clear if one reads along, step-by-step, after some clever person bothered to figure things out and write it down for us. Slap things on a chip and I might understand some principles at an abstract level, but the cool thing about the mechanical watches is the cool thing about gears -- you get this lovely fluid result out of this layering of very basic mechanical steps that common folk like me can follow, end-to-end, if we bother to pay attention.

For me, there's also this thing about a certain historical view of how the world works, but that's another story.

The pannies just don't do it for me -- handsome and distinctive "utility" watches, but way to effin' huge and the prices ... well, there's a sense in which it's hard to argue value with any of the established euro watch brands, but I'm not sure I see the value.

[djg]

I personally do not appreciate the diamond laden watches. I prefer the watches with complex mechanism while appearing pure and simple. My favorite is the Blancpain Minute Repeater.

http://www.timetunnel-jp.com/BP_mr_ptyg.html

you are a disgrace to the name p-diddy sir

but, yeah ...

[Jeff N.]

Omega Seamaster Pro Chrono in Ti/rose gold, still my fav. Jeff N.

[steve575]

My Panerai actually appreciated in value while I owned it. Panerai had several price increases after I bought mine in 2002. I owned it for a few years and sold it for what I paid. Maybe the rising cost of high end bikes will have the same affect.

[Climb01742]

i admit a panerai isn't to everyone's taste but i fell in love with the shape of the 12, 3, 6 and 9. artful utility. and while i hadn't realized it, douglas may well be spot-on: my aging eyes like the big dial. :rolleyes:

[jimcav]

I used to have a tag heur something or other, automatic movement, cronometer (very nice gift). after it broke while jogging on the C&O canal near georgetown, (stop/start button popped off and it ran sloow) I had it fixed under warranty and I traded it in on an IWC aquatimer. that IWC just came back from a warranty repair (chronometer hour hand came off). I would like an automatic movement that will take jogging, biking, showering, maybe swimming (lap swims). I read up on it and thought the IWC was a good choice. If it goes south again, what would you horology types recommend instead?
jim

[pjm]

I used to have a tag heur something or other, automatic movement, cronometer (very nice gift). after it broke while jogging on the C&O canal near georgetown, (stop/start button popped off and it ran sloow) I had it fixed under warranty and I traded it in on an IWC aquatimer. that IWC just came back from a warranty repair (chronometer hour hand came off). I would like an automatic movement that will take jogging, biking, showering, maybe swimming (lap swims). I read up on it and thought the IWC was a good choice. If it goes south again, what would you horology types recommend instead?
jim
I haven't managed to break my Rolex Submariner in 17 years, and I wear it every day.

[saab2000]

I have a Breitling B-1 which has been as reliable as the sunrise for the past 7+ years. Ultra accurate too.

This spring I needed a new band and battery. I went to a fancy, schmancy watch store in the Washington DC area and was stunned by the patronising, pompous attitude they displayed. Additionally, they didn't really know what to do. They were not sure if they could get an original band, etc. but that it would be $300-$400. What a joke.

So I waited 'til I was in Zürich in the spring and went into Les Ambassadeurs where I bought it on the Bahnhofstrasse. They were friendly, efficient and far less expensive than the US authorised Breitling store. $180 later and I was under way with a new (better than the original) band, a new battery and a cleaning. Within an hour.

Anyway, it is my main over-the-top indulgence in my life. And it wasn't even all that expensive at the time when I was a DINK with a better income than today.

I dig the Breitling.

[e-RICHIE]

'cross tested and worth the wait atmo -

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2237/2033988215_2258625370_o.jpg

[Kevan]

but this is more my speed:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HEBYPCP5L._SS400_.jpg

yet.

[vaxn8r]

I used to have a tag heur something or other, automatic movement, cronometer (very nice gift). after it broke while jogging on the C&O canal near georgetown, (stop/start button popped off and it ran sloow) I had it fixed under warranty and I traded it in on an IWC aquatimer. that IWC just came back from a warranty repair (chronometer hour hand came off). I would like an automatic movement that will take jogging, biking, showering, maybe swimming (lap swims). I read up on it and thought the IWC was a good choice. If it goes south again, what would you horology types recommend instead?
jim
Seiko automatic. You absolutely can't kill them, they have a simple classic look and they are inexpensive. Having said that, you don't see many people wearing them. You're far more likely to see someone wearing a knockoff Rolex or Omega than you are a nice Seiko auto. When you use one you begin to wonder why someone would spend more. Bulletproof.

[Blue Jays]

jimcav, that issue with your IWC Aquatimer (http://www.IWC.com) was an anomaly. You'll likely have no further issues with it for the rest of your life and for the lifetime of the person to whom you pass the watch.
You have made a superb choice for a sportswatch.

[vaxn8r]

agree. simpler, less flashy. my pick: steel case, black face:

http://www.panerai.com/s_page.xpd?id_lingua=2&id_sezione=15&id_categoria=33
Or this 1983 classic:

[malcolm]

Jimcav, I agree the problem with your IWC was probably a fluke, but if you are looking for something new, http://www.watchbuys.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=214
I've been using this as my daily do everything watch and it seems bullet proof.

[MRB]

I recently bought a Fortis, my current watch is a Tutima, but he dial is orange, and I wanted something a little less flashy. I went with a black dial Fortis, kind of wish I had went with a white dial though (buyers remorse?)

Anyone have any experience with Fortis, good or bad?

thanks,

John

[MilanoTom]

Or this 1983 classic:

I'm with you on that. I can't deal with the monster watches that are in vogue now. They bring back '70s flashbacks.

Still, if my wrist ever grows, I'll probably get an Omega Speedmaster Professional.

Tom

[jimcav]

Jimcav, I agree the problem with your IWC was probably a fluke, but if you are looking for something new, http://www.watchbuys.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=214
I've been using this as my daily do everything watch and it seems bullet proof.

but for when i run, i do wnat a stop watch chronometer function.
I hope you are right about the IWC--i liked it so much more than the rolex and omegas i also looked at (they were recommended by the store)
jim

[zeroking17]

I see that Roland Murphy was mentioned earlier in this thread. Does anyone here have an RGM? If so, I'd like to hear about it.

I ask not only because RGM currently helps sponsor a cycling team, but also because my non-American friends who are watch aficianados have told me that RGM is, in their eyes, the only US watchmaker they consider to be world-class, on par with top European and Asian craftsmen.

[jimcav]

jimcav, that issue with your IWC Aquatimer (http://www.IWC.com) was an anomaly. You'll likely have no further issues with it for the rest of your life and for the lifetime of the person to whom you pass the watch.
You have made a superb choice for a sportswatch.

it was my favorite watch i looked at, except maybe a stainless rolex daytona cosmograph, that the store showed me, but while i thought the IWC was crazy expensive, the rolex was hollywood expensive (to me).

thanks again
jim

[jimcav]

'cross tested and worth the wait atmo -

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2237/2033988215_2258625370_o.jpg

what watch is that
thanks
jim

[e-RICHIE]

what watch is that
thanks
jim
coming soon atmo -

[Grant McLean]

coming soon atmo -

I hope they remembered to put some hands on there...


-g

[jimcav]

I hope they remembered to put some hands on there...


-g

who is making the watch etc?

[Ozz]

I have a TAG S/el that was a wedding gift from my bride....it has been bullet proof for 11 years.

That said.....my "money is not object" watch would be:

[e-RICHIE]

who is making the watch etc?
one of these cats atmo -

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1024/750332456_7ef60a1b70.jpg

[Grant McLean]

one of these cats atmo -

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1024/750332456_7ef60a1b70.jpg

no hands there either?



-g

[Blue Jays]

"I recently bought a Fortis, my current watch is a Tutima, but he dial is orange, and I wanted something a little less flashy. I went with a black dial Fortis, kind of wish I had went with a white dial though (buyers remorse?)
Anyone have any experience with Fortis, good or bad?"MRB, my guess is that you likely purchased a FORTIS FLIEGER model in 40mm size? They are a wonderful daily workhorse and will treat you well. You absolutely made the correct choice of the black dial. That is the time-honored proper color for a pilot's watch. You have made an excellent selection that will treat you well. I've had many FORTIS watches in and out of my collection over the years with great success. Congratulations!

:beer:

[CaliFly]

Couple of my loves...
:)

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f100/palitang/rad1.jpg

I've owned the Luminor Marina (40mm) for about five years and is my "go to" watch. I just got the Rad a few months ago...it shore is purty. Hopefully my wife pairs it with a nice Prince when we go to Italy on my 40th. :hello:

[steve575]

You guys are making me wish I kept mine.
44mm.

[Volant]

I have a TAG S/el that was a wedding gift from my bride....it has been bullet proof for 11 years.

That said.....my "money is not object" watch would be:

Classy!

[CaliFly]

Here's one on my current radar. Clean design that comes in black PVD. Yum! :beer:

http://bathyswatch.com/images/gallery/smkalapakisand100Fathom_s.jpg

[mikemets]

and an IWC tomorrow

[Blue Jays]

mikemets, very nice Glashütte Original you've got there! Looking forward to your subsequent IWC snapshot!

[deechee]

Here's one on my current radar. Clean design that comes in black PVD. Yum! :beer:

http://bathyswatch.com/images/gallery/smkalapakisand100Fathom_s.jpg

What kind of watch is that?
Do you guys actually wear these things all the time?
I can't wear anything this nice while biking (experiences from mtn biking) nor is daily use feasible since gym locker thefts are rampant.

[maunahaole]

I mostly wear a seiko black monster, with stainless band. A huge chunk of steel.

[sevencyclist]

I used to have a tag heur something or other, automatic movement, cronometer (very nice gift). after it broke while jogging on the C&O canal near georgetown, (stop/start button popped off and it ran sloow) I had it fixed under warranty and I traded it in on an IWC aquatimer. that IWC just came back from a warranty repair (chronometer hour hand came off). I would like an automatic movement that will take jogging, biking, showering, maybe swimming (lap swims). I read up on it and thought the IWC was a good choice. If it goes south again, what would you horology types recommend instead?
jim

While the astronauts usually wear several watches, both digital and mechanical to prevent failure, the Omega Speedmaster was the original astronaut watch designed to endure shocks, temperature, and wet conditions. Here is a little writeup about it.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/omega.html

http://www.accutronservice.com/omega_speedmaster.htm

http://www.omegawatches.com/index.php?id=132

http://www.classicwristwatch.com/Watches%20In%20Space.htm

Some of the RGM watches can endure what you are talking about. Roland Murphy can help you pick a mechanism that would fit your need. The ETA 2892 movement has been a great success, and is used by many of the top brands for their sturdy automatic watches.

http://rgmwatches.com/2892_15ER.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_movement

[maunahaole]

I thought the Shturmanskie [sp?] was the original astronaut watch. Wasnt that what Yuri Gagarin wore?

[sevencyclist]

I thought the Shturmanskie [sp?] was the original astronaut watch. Wasnt that what Yuri Gagarin wore?
The Omega Speedmaster was designed for the NASA astronauts. I actually don't know much about the Russian watch history. Sorry. There were many other watches that astronauts wore in space. Apparently Seiko and Sinn are two of the often mentioned.


http://sinn142.nav.to/

http://sinn142.fateback.com/pogue.html

[sevencyclist]

I am sorry, Omega Speedmaster is not automatic. In space, the concern was for lack of gravity, and therefore the automatic winding mechanism might not work.

[mikemets]

mikemets, very nice Glashütte Original you've got there! Looking forward to your subsequent IWC snapshot!

Here you go

[gt6267a]

swatch in the house! black swatch with white face. elegant. keeps time. i can throw it across the room. sans swatch guard no one knows what the hell it is. from greater than 2' people ussually guess a seiko. my last 50 francs at the airport coming back from switzerland. cheesy, maybe. my favorite material object, definitely.

[Blue Jays]

mikemets, looks fantastic on the honey-colored strap! The stock black strap has more of that "pebble" grain to it, which is also nice. The Mark XVI (and earlier models) all look better on a strap as compared to the stainless steel bracelet, in my opinion. For example, a Portuguese 3714 would look silly with a stainless steel bracelet! :)

Going the other way, the new IWC Ingenieur looks better on a bracelet than it does on a strap...You've got some great taste in watches, that's for sure.

[sbornia]

Earlier this year, there was another watch thread here that clued me in to some cool, decent value German brands...so I found a new way to waste time on the 'net. Now I have a Stowa and Sinn sandwich:

http://mightypenmarketing.com/german_sandwich.jpg

[mikemets]

mikemets, looks fantastic on the honey-colored strap! The stock black strap has more of that "pebble" grain to it, which is also nice. The Mark XVI (and earlier models) all look better on a strap as compared to the stainless steel bracelet, in my opinion. For example, a Portuguese 3714 would look silly with a stainless steel bracelet! :)

Going the other way, the new IWC Ingenieur looks better on a bracelet than it does on a strap...You've got some great taste in watches, that's for sure.


Thanks Blue Jays

I agree, and my next watch will be a 3717-04

[mikemets]

Earlier this year, there was another watch thread here that clued me in to some cool, decent value German brands...so I found a new way to waste time on the 'net. Now I have a Stowa and Sinn sandwich:

http://mightypenmarketing.com/german_sandwich.jpg

Nice

I've had 2 Stowas, great value, and handsome watches

[Blue Jays]

"Thanks Blue Jays. I agree, and my next watch will be a 3717-04"For those not familiar with this spectacular model:

https://www.iwc.com/collection/_img/4_0_pilotswatches/3717_004_l.jpg

:beer:

[Blue Jays]

Here's my most-recent IWC 3714-01 on the left with the next-to-be-obtained 3227-01 on the right:

https://www.iwc.com/collection/_img/2_0_portuguese/3714_001_l.jpg https://www.iwc.com/collection/_img/8_0_ingenieur/3227_001_l.jpg

One finds very frequently that people "into" bicycles are often "into" watches and vice versa as well...

[cadence231]

Here's my most-recent IWC 3714-01 on the left with the next-to-be-obtained 3227-01 on the right:




I like the guy on the right!

Here's my guy:

It's not the infamous Bund but it's still the applle of my eye. Butch too.

[djg]

The Omega Speedmaster was designed for the NASA astronauts. I actually don't know much about the Russian watch history. Sorry. There were many other watches that astronauts wore in space. Apparently Seiko and Sinn are two of the often mentioned.


http://sinn142.nav.to/

http://sinn142.fateback.com/pogue.html

Speedies are cool watches, to be sure, but I think that most varieties just don't have the kind of water resistance one might want in an all-around sports watch (of the sort that can be worn to work, out, etc.). Many pilot's watches are the same way (and 50 meters doesn't mean that you safely can dive to 50 meters, or even swim in the thing). For that, in Omega, I'd look at the Seamaster line, which includes several chono versions for people who want those functions.

[saab2000]

Must be "Swiss Made"! :D

[TACSTS]

I have the desire, but as a college student no $$$. As a result this is how I roll:
(note the sweet hook and loop band, that's velcro for you proletariat)

[e-RICHIE]

I have the desire, but as a college student no $$$. As a result this is how I roll:
(note the sweet hook and loop band, that's velcro for you proletariat)
whoa

[Fixed]

http://www.thewatchguy.com/pages/HAMILTONELECT.html

[Louis]

Unless a watch is really going to get me "more tail than Sinatra" then I'd rather spend the money on bike stuff any day.

[dookie]

you know, i thought about starting a watch thread a few weeks ago when i came on board.

it was going to start along the lines of "what does a watch say about a man? or, more specifically, what does it say about me that i wear the same (highly unusual, but not particularly high-dollar) watch as forum old-timer Spoke?"

the watch in question is the ti revue thommen airspeed chrono. not to throw anybody under the bus or anything, but his is (gasp!) a quartz, while mine is a lemania 5100 automatic. i'm no collector...it's my every day wearer, and my only other is a nike c9 hrm.

[mikemets]

Unless a watch is really going to get me "more tail than Sinatra" then I'd rather spend the money on bike stuff any day.

me too

[rounder]

Unless a watch is really going to get me "more tail than Sinatra" then I'd rather spend the money on bike stuff any day.


Same here. Swiss Army...stainless with a white dial and leather band and relatively cheap. Built tough and keeps great time. I have to say though, those mechanical watches were beautiful.

[Blue Jays]

Watches and bikes don't have to be exclusive of one another. Just follow a pattern somewhat like this and everything will work out just fine:

* Make a bike purchase
* save
* Make a watch purchase
* save
* Make a bike purchase
* save
* Make a watch purchase
* save
* toss a couple bucks in the kid's college fund
* save
* Make a bike purchase
* save
* Make a watch purchase
* save
* Make a bike purchase
* save
* Make a watch purchase

:D

[I Want Sachs?]

Watches and bikes don't have to be exclusive of one another. Just follow a pattern somewhat like this and everything will work out just fine:

* Make a bike purchase
* save
* Make a watch purchase
* save
* Make a bike purchase
* save
* Make a watch purchase
* save
* toss a couple bucks in the kid's college fund
* save
* Make a bike purchase
* save
* Make a watch purchase
* save
* Make a bike purchase
* save
* Make a watch purchase

:D
You forgot to include one line item ATMO.

Make a fountain pen purchase.

http://www.airlineintl.com/montegrappa/montegrappa_dragonsilver.htm

http://www.airlineintl.com/montegrappa/montegrappa_milldrago.htm

http://airline.stores.yahoo.net/samawospjada.html.

[sailorboy]

such amazing technology, folks have probably already seen this article, but I still like to glance at it now and then. These Japanese, they really are fanatical about being the best at something when they set their mind to it.

http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/seiko/springdrive/SeikoSDPart1.htm

Also picked up a couple of vintage grand/king seikos from the 70's and I swear they keep better time in all conditions than my Omega co-axial that is only a few years old.

[Kevan]

me too

for when we go out to dinner with the wives.

[DRZRM]

As the proud owner of an IWC (GST Chrono), an Omega Speedy Broad Arrow and a Sinn 142, I agree with the other posters that your IWC was a fluke, and once returned will probably last a lifetime. But if you want something that can face whatever you throw at it, you may want to think a about what the watch dorks (I say that lovingly to any timezoners here, I'd call this group bike dorks to them) call a tool watch. I love the Sinns, take a look over at Watchbuys. They are not too expensive (all things relative) and they are built to take a lifetime of beatings. My Sinn 142 is the watch I'll wear for rough-housing of any sort, it is one of the other watches that has been used in space (first automatic I think). Fortis (Fortus?) also makes a well regarded tool watch.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f302/drzrm/SinnIWC.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f302/drzrm/P1000020.jpg

PS Yes I have noticed that all my watches look pretty much alike (almost all of my bikes are Ti, once I find something I like I stick with it). My fiance is looking to get me a cream faced watch for our wedding gift, I'm looking forward to the change (Sinn 956).

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f302/drzrm/sinn956strapcreamdial_1836_detail.jpg

I used to have a tag heur something or other, automatic movement, cronometer (very nice gift). after it broke while jogging on the C&O canal near georgetown, (stop/start button popped off and it ran sloow) I had it fixed under warranty and I traded it in on an IWC aquatimer. that IWC just came back from a warranty repair (chronometer hour hand came off). I would like an automatic movement that will take jogging, biking, showering, maybe swimming (lap swims). I read up on it and thought the IWC was a good choice. If it goes south again, what would you horology types recommend instead?
jim

[steve575]

Any experience with Oris? I've been thinking about the Chronoris, it's part of their F1 line.

[jpw]

Ever been to Geneva airport?

Every concourse wall has a different watch brand advert on it.

[pjm]

Unless a watch is really going to get me "more tail than Sinatra" then I'd rather spend the money on bike stuff any day.
Not a single bicycle I've owned has increased in value like my Rolex Submariner has!

[jimcav]

[QUOTE=DRZRM]you may want to think a about what the watch dorks (I say that lovingly to any timezoners here, I'd call this group bike dorks to them) call a tool watch. I love the Sinns, [QUOTE]

AND a heirloom watch. I wanted a mechanical automatic, i wanted one that really appealed to me visually, was light enough to run a marathon with, and could with stand the shock of cycling, to include mtn biking. Sadly i quit running seriously soon after i got it, but i may get back to it.

I liked the broad arrow, and i liked the rolex cosmograph, and the Ti aquatimer. I think the rolex was my fav, but too expensive, the IWC was the lightest, the Omega was less expensive but had not been out a long time, so i was not sure how tough it was. I did not see any Sinn watches. Unlike bikes, I can't do another watch. If i did not love bikes as i do, i probably would--when i was in 4th grade i read a book on clocks and built a model of the first working clock from an illustration in the book--won my science fair, but only after my teacher informed the judges i built it from looking at a picture in a book, not a kit. My favorite NOVA episode was the one on the first seaworthy chronometers.
Already living far above my means with bikes.
But if you like bikes for the mecahnical design, it is hard to not love a mechanical watch more.

jim

[malcolm]

http://www.watchbuys.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=406
I'm trying not to buy this Sinn, it is one of my faves and only 450 produced.

[schadenfreude]

such amazing technology, folks have probably already seen this article, but I still like to glance at it now and then. These Japanese, they really are fanatical about being the best at something when they set their mind to it.

http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/seiko/springdrive/SeikoSDPart1.htm

Also picked up a couple of vintage grand/king seikos from the 70's and I swear they keep better time in all conditions than my Omega co-axial that is only a few years old.

Timezone is a good resource, but the Seiko Citizen watch forum is even better for Asian watches.

[Pete Serotta]

I have had an ORIS for a few years. THe local jewelry shop that I have used since being in RALEIGH carries them and likes the,


Any experience with Oris? I've been thinking about the Chronoris, it's part of their F1 line.

[jimcav]

http://www.watchbuys.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=406
I'm trying not to buy this Sinn, it is one of my faves and only 450 produced.

but i like zipp or THM carbon bits and other stuff more for my visa.
jim

[musgravecycles]

Guess I'm outta my league here...

A bit of thread drift; what would be considered best built under $500 (new or used)? Seiko?

I've been wearing one of these :rolleyes: , so that I can afford to also wear those:

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/ti/timex-ironman-50-lap-memory.JPG
http://rocket7.com/images/RoadStock2006b.jpg

[pjm]

Check out Invicta or Croton, sold regularly on ShopNBC. Android, too.

[mikemets]

Guess I'm outta my league here...

A bit of thread drift; what would be considered best built under $500 (new or used)? Seiko?

I've been wearing one of these :rolleyes: , so that I can afford to also wear those:

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/ti/timex-ironman-50-lap-memory.JPG
http://rocket7.com/images/RoadStock2006b.jpg

Seiko has to be one of the best values out there, if not #1

[Louis]

Shimano = Seiko

Campy = Any overpriced, too fancy, Eurotrash brand you care to flaunt

SRAM = Timex

[mikemets]

Shimano = Seiko

Campy = Any overpriced, too fancy, Eurotrash brand you care to flaunt

SRAM = Timex

Campy = Any overpriced, too fancy, Eurotrash brand you care to flaunt - hey, I resemble that remark ;)

[benb]

What about Citizen?

I will not mention the Eurotrash brand I had/have that just refused to work no matter how many times it was sent back, nor having to ship it back to Switzerland for a freakin battery change to warranty it actually water resistant. (Yah this watch was 1/10th the price of the man-jewlery being exhibited in this thread)

But anyway.. I figured I'd either replace it with a Seiko or a Citizen.. ended up with a Citizen Eco-tech watch, all Ti. I think it would be a hair over $500 in a shop, but I got it for about 1/2 that online. Seiko's offerings just looked like they'd require being opened more quickly.

Less mechanical stuff to worry about wearing out, no batteries to change, no need to ever open it up. (An expensive watch is no better then the last person who opened it after all) Mine has been extremely accurate and I've never seen it go into "low power" mode. It apparently only needs 8 minutes of sunlight for a full charge.. so it basically stays topped off all the time.

I got one with just a bezel ring minute timer, screw down back, screw down crown.. that way I can use it to time stuff in the water with no worries as the ring is completely outside the seals. I've had it 4 years now.. never touched the thing other then DST adjustments.... it's been very, very accurate.

Seriously.. how much of the expensive stuff is even accurate? And having to put it on a winder overnight?

Then again no one can seem to convince me things are better just cause they're from Europe and cost a fortune.

[DRZRM]

It's not to everyones taste, but I like the Seiko Sportura line, and they've won a couple awards for design. It's got a combined automatic/electrical cell. It has an auto you can see spinning through the back, but it charges an electric cell. It can sit for 90 days w/o stopping, but it never needs a battery change. They retail for $1,000 but you can always find them right at that $500 mark. See below.

http://www.overstock.com/Jewelry-Watches/Seiko-Mens-Sportura-Kinetic-Chronograph-Watch/2680731/product.html

Also available on a strap for a few bucks less.

http://www.overstock.com/Jewelry-Watches/Seiko-Mens-Sportura-Kinetic-Chronograph-Watch/2690790/product.html


Guess I'm outta my league here...

A bit of thread drift; what would be considered best built under $500 (new or used)? Seiko?

I've been wearing one of these :rolleyes: , so that I can afford to also wear those:

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/ti/timex-ironman-50-lap-memory.JPG
http://rocket7.com/images/RoadStock2006b.jpg

[I Want Sachs?]

Seriously.. how much of the expensive stuff is even accurate?

I agree, the expensive stuff is no more accurate, in fact, an expensive mechanical Philippe Dufour is probably less accurate than a Timex which "take a licking and keeps on ticking." :)

I think mechanical watches attracts us to the mechanical and traditional appeal in many of us. There are many sho do not understand why I would prefer a more expensive lugged steel bike, which is heavier/slower, than a much cheaper and lighter/faster carbon Giant.

It's about how you feel about the ride, not just the speed; just like it's about how you feel about the times, not just the accuracy.

[malcolm]

A timex like any other quartz is not a watch it is a computer.

[schadenfreude]

One finds very frequently that people "into" bicycles are often "into" watches and vice versa as well...

Blue Jays, do you have any of the watches you have posted pictures of? If you do, I am sure that I am not the only person here who would love to see some of your pictures of your watches! :)

TIA!

[christian]

Blue Jays - nice taste. I have a classic 3251, and a 3717 and 3714 are on the short list. Hate the new Spitfires, but the Portugeisers and classic pilot's watches are nice. A Sinn 656 would be a fun little daily beater, too.

ATMO - the RGM Pilot 151 "RS" looks super-nice!

[Blue Jays]

Christian, thanks for the kind words. You similarly have great taste in watches! I've been an admirer of the Sinn 656 for years and I've been hoping & praying they increase the size to 42mm someday.
I would have to dig into into my old editions of WatchTime Magazine as I seem to recall the hardened steel Sinn selected for that model was incredibly durable.

http://www.watchbuys.com/store/pc/catalog/sinn656strap_2257_detail.jpg

:beer:

[e-RICHIE]

ATMO - the RGM Pilot 151 "RS" looks super-nice!
"coming soon" atmo.

[justinf]

I got a 656 about a year ago based on a previous watch thread similar to this. . .it has been awesome. It's not a beater for me, I was coming "up" from a Tag F1.

[Blue Jays]

justinf, they don't come much more supremely legible than the Sinn 656. :)

[djg]

Guess I'm outta my league here...

A bit of thread drift; what would be considered best built under $500 (new or used)? Seiko?

I've been wearing one of these :rolleyes: , so that I can afford to also wear those:

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/ti/timex-ironman-50-lap-memory.JPG
http://rocket7.com/images/RoadStock2006b.jpg

A good quality automatic under 500? If you like a diver style watch, and don't mind a large-ish one, seiko makes a nice automatic diver for way, way under 500 bucks -- like half of that. If you like the look of the Sinn watches, you could check out Fortis also.

[Louis]

"coming soon" atmo.

Will we be hearing of the "RGM - RS Affair" in a future TDF?

[Blue Jays]

"...Guess I'm outta my league here...A bit of thread drift, what would be considered best built under $500 (new or used)? Seiko?..."musgravecycles, another fantastic source is Bill Yao of Mk II Watches (http://www.MkIIwatches.com) who had a wonderful business customizing Seiko timepieces and now they also manufactures Swiss-made watches with ETA 2824 movements.
Definitely take a look. Fantastic watches with classical good looks.

[sailorboy]

From left to right:

1973 King Seiko Hi-beat official chronometer--before Seiko said screw you to the COSC federation and made watches that were even more accurate, dropping the "chronometer" labeling

Grand Seiko hi-beat 36,000 VFA (very fine adjusted) Supposedly only Seiko and Zenith could come up with a 36,000 bph movement that would realistically hold up to daily use.

Seiko king quartz. Twin quartz movement, super accurate, and also a Japan first or so I'm told.

Grand Seiko spring drive. When I'm in a meeting that is boring the ***** out of me or I just want to go to my happy place I'll stare at the second hand sweeping around. I have used the internet atomic clock webpage to check this thing and it maintains about 1-2 seconds over the better part of a month with daily use. Sick.

[saab2000]

What about Citizen?

I will not mention the Eurotrash brand I had/have that just refused to work no matter how many times it was sent back, nor having to ship it back to Switzerland for a freakin battery change to warranty it actually water resistant. .

Most US dealers have no clue about what they are selling or how to deal with it. I have a Breitling. Wasn't cheap, but not a house either. Ultra reliable and when buffed a bit looks like new. No scratches on the glass. None. No joke. After seven years that's not bad. I have no doubt it will last many more years. Then I'll get another. Or a Rolex. The Citizens I have seen look like junk after a year.

I bought mine in Switzerland. That's your best bet. And get one at a real watch store, not a tourist trap like in Interlaken or Grindelwald. And get the card of the owner/Uhrmacher. They will be able to help best when it is time to get a new battery or band. The US dealers are a farce. At least that has been my experience. Arrogant and ignorant - the worst possible combination.

Maybe Rolex has a decent dealer network, but the Breitling network is bad. And Breitling is what Citizens are copies of....

[A.L.Breguet]

Not a sports watch, but an example of a traditional watchmakers art.

[Ray]

I've been watching this thread from a distance and just noticed that it got big enough to open it up and take a look. There must be a *****load of discretionary income around these parts. I mean, I do OK, I live really comfortably and want for nothing. But nice bikes (and I'm talking Riv and Spectrum prices, not Meivici prices) are my one real extravagance. I drive pedestrian cars, and as little as possible. I tend to wear jeans and sweatshirts with one or two nice sets of clothes for when I have to dress for a meeting. I have a sorta nice espresso setup, but it ran about 1/4 of what the really premium expensive double boiler and high end grinder setups cost. I eat high quality and healthy food (no junk), but not gourmet food.

My watch is a Timex Ironman. I seem to break a band about every 3-4 years and just buy a new watch because they're dirt cheap. They even have a stop watch and timer so I can cook my ramen noodles the right amount! I used to pay about $20 but now probably closer to $30-35 per each. I suspect in my entire adult life I've probably spent a couple of hundred dollars on watches by now. Maybe. I can't even frickin' IMAGINE spending a grand or more on something that will keep the same time.

I know a lot of folks feel the same way about bikes and I know we pick our indulgences. But I get the feeling a lot of folks have a bunch of pretty high-end indulgences. More power to you if you can afford 'em get off on 'em all. But I have to admit, I can't quite relate.

Just sayin,

-Ray

[christian]

I'm cheap, so for toys, I buy used and pay cash.

I paid 40% of the new price for my Pegoretti. Absolutely as new.
I paid 31% of the new price for my IWC. Absolutely as new.
I paid 19% of the new price for my Mercedes E500 (W124). Ok, 78k miles and I had to spend a weekend detailing it, but it cost less than a Honda Fit! (Admittedly, the maintenance and gas consumption are in a different league, but I only drive 4000 miles/year, so...)

[pjm]

I have a third indulgence....I'm a long time audiophile. The money I've spent on bikes and watches doesn't come close to what I've blown on that stuff!

[TACSTS]

This might be a bit off topic, but anyhow, here goes...

This thread really got me to thinking about how people spend money. My girlfriend and I had a nice discussion on the topic after looking at this thread. I agree these watches are very nice, and in particular the Sinn watches really appeal to me, but even when we get out of school I don't think I could ever justify it. We've both got six-figure jobs waiting on us when we graduate in a year and very likely will get married so the household income should allow for us to divulge in our hobbies/interests as we wish. (not to mention cost of living is very, very cheap in this area). But I just don't think I could ever do it.

One good example of this, is with autos. I've been into cars since I turned 16. Have raced autocross for many seasons, and I guess would qualify as a driving "enthusiast". I always imagined myself with a nice sports car sometime down the road, but as I've grown up a bit I don't think I could do it anymore. Basically when I look around and see that so many people in our country or the world don't have many of the basic necessities of life such as healthcare, education, proper and safe housing, how could I spend so much money on an what is an extravagance of an already extravagant lifestyle (globally speaking)?

Yes, I know nice bikes are an extravagance as well, but I figure if I only have one financial vice, cycling is not that bad. Everyone needs an outlet for stress relief, cycling is mine, and as long as you don't go too overboard it's really not that expensive.

Does anyone feel the same? Also please don't let me offend anyone, I'm not judging, just airing some thoughts. :)

[A.L.Breguet]

...Basically when I look around and see that so many people in our country or the world don't have many of the basic necessities of life such as healthcare, education, proper and safe housing, how could I spend so much money on an what is an extravagance of an already extravagant lifestyle (globally speaking)? ...

Well fwiw, I and Mrs. Breguet have healthcare, education, and decent housing as a result of the continually growing luxury watch market.
On the other hand, I am not defending obscene conspicuos consumption. Hell, I hear some people spend $15,000 or more for a bicycle.
I'm not offended.

[dbrk]

...Basically when I look around and see that so many people in our country or the world don't have many of the basic necessities of life such as healthcare, education, proper and safe housing, how could I spend so much money on an what is an extravagance of an already extravagant lifestyle (globally speaking)?

Yes, I know nice bikes are an extravagance as well, but... snip..snip...as long as you don't go too overboard it's really not that expensive.

Does anyone feel the same? Also please don't let me offend anyone, I'm not judging, just airing some thoughts. :)

I'll take this one...
I've long renounced renunciation and austerity as a moral choice or somehow superior one. My mission is not to tell other folks what to like. I understand that others feel more comfortable with simple, austere, minimalism. I don't think of myself as profligate and I feel a personal sense of conscience especially for those who have so much less (of everything). I don't think I am ungenerous or stingy. I'm also not trying to save the world with some notion of personal virtue. But Weber and the Protestant ethic notwithstanding, I'm not going to live my life worrying about what I like, how much I own, or if it's extravagant by any one else's standards, norms, or measures. If I like it and can afford it then I don't think it's a problem to "possess" it since, well, it's not going with me!

Many of you know that I have what has turned out to be a bicycle collection.
Believe it or not, I've never thought of myself as a collector and never set upon the notion or the task. Unlike Horton, for example, who has taken up the notion of a bike collection, I just sorta' own nearly all the same bikes, mostly by just wanting them and near-accident and good luck. In addition, I own mostly old junk that I like and a fewer newer examples that would qualify me as One VeryVery Lucky Guy, at least I see it that way. I don't think I "deserve" these things because I "earned" them, though I have made my meager life's success without inheritance but with a great deal of support and help along the way. I am utterly committed to giving my daughters similar advantages to make their own choices and seize opportunities. But I know I am lucky, blessed with a job that lets me say almost anything I want, make a living, and sustain a happily uncomplicated notion of materiality. It's hard in our society to say that we like "things" as much for the sociology and history of our Protestant ethic as for far better reasons of environmentalism, generosity, and commitment to a better world for all. But I've not a trace of guilt or confusion. I never wander down to the basement and worry that I own all this crap. I like my crap, thank you very much. To make matters more of the same, I also own a few lovely mechanical watches 'cause I like them a lot and apparently can afford them. I wish I owned a couple more ---though I don't think I'll ever be able to afford the Lange and Sohn or Dufour that I would love to have--- but I won't be distraught or concerned if it doesn't happen. I've been jonesin' since I was 10 years old for a Porsche 911 and darned if I don't get one before I'm too old to drive or care. I have all the bikes one guy who loves bikes could EVER want and have tried most of the others, but there's room in my heart for another Goodrich, Mariposa, Pegoretti, Sachs, Weigle, Kirk, Toei and stillll plenty of room for a lugged steel Spectrum, Vanilla, Watanabe heck the list goes on! Other people like other stuff. Many people here like stuff that doesn't much interest me. That's swell!! Some people want much less stuff, that's swell too! I hardly wear ties anymore but I really like Hermes or Hilditch & Key. So what? Wanting stuff isn't a problem for me. Owning isn't either. I'm lucky and the people I'm responsible for aren't going to be wanting either. If this is indulgent or doesn't suit others' aesthetic or choices, that's fine with me. The world is big enough, as I see it, for more than one way to live. So long as my luck holds out, I'm going to like what I love and love what I like. Fire away. Honestly, I'm not terribly concerned with being judged for liking life the way I do. I pay my bills and I'll die just like the rest of us. I'm trying really hard to be green, etc., I don't think I'm a bad person for being both lucky and liking it. Too much about too little here, sorry.

dbrk

[malcolm]

Tacsts, call me after a few years of the 6 figure income and paying taxes on the six figure income and we'll see if you still feel the same way. Unless you are donating all you earn above what it takes you to survive to feed and support those less fortunante what difference does it make what you spend your money on. If you put all of yours in a 401k or I spend all of mine what difference does it make? I think it is noble to want to make the world a better place, but doing without doesn't really help. You only get one shot, live it well and if the path you choose is to facilitate change then use your earning potential, talent, acumen or what have you to actively pursue change. Not buying a watch or car won't make a hill of beans unless you are donating that wealth and if so good on you.

[djg]

This might be a bit off topic, but anyhow, here goes...

This thread really got me to thinking about how people spend money. My girlfriend and I had a nice discussion on the topic after looking at this thread. I agree these watches are very nice, and in particular the Sinn watches really appeal to me, but even when we get out of school I don't think I could ever justify it. We've both got six-figure jobs waiting on us when we graduate in a year and very likely will get married so the household income should allow for us to divulge in our hobbies/interests as we wish. (not to mention cost of living is very, very cheap in this area). But I just don't think I could ever do it.



Let's distinguish a couple of possible approaches. One has to do with feeling some relationship to strangers and some obligation to relieve some of the suffering in the world, and then actually acting upon it. That would involve giving of your money and time, in non-trivial doses. A handful of nominal, say 25 buck charity jog contributions isn't really doing much for a couple with six figure incomes (even if each barely has a six figure income, as so many JD/PhD/MD couples in public work in the Washington area do) -- I'd say it's pretty cheap if that's all it is. At the same time, we cannot really all work full time at famine relief, else there will be no food to hand out or transportation to cart it around. Where does one draw the line? I really don't know, honestly, but a little guilt here and there, and a little modesty about acquisitions, might be useful gut checks against indifference -- basically, visceral signals to think of the welfare of others throughout the year, and not just with the occasional gesture. I think it's probably socially useful if lots of us feel certain vague emotional commitments that are hard to cash out in precise, principled commitments. Caring only about collecting watches seems worse than shallow to me. Enjoying a nice watch seems fine. In between, I have no idea how to calculate an appropriate level of watch spending for anybody else, really.

Another approach is the sort of Singer go-ahead-and-indulge-in-subsistence-and-give-everything-else-away gambit. I'm not sure it's tenable for most folks, and might seriously impede welfare generally if the large majority of folks tried -- it might really be something of a disaster, although it's hard to be sure. Certainly, imposed selflessness can prove to be a disaster. In the interim, you get endless little problems, like does your profession (which produces surplus not just for others, but in cash to you, which you then might give away) really permit -- or fully permit -- you to wear sweat pants, t-shirts, and plastic watches (can you even pull it off if you don't let yourself care just a little bit how you dress and look)?

So look: let's say you and the wife pull in 250k and it's not all going to pay off loans for the education and training which enabled you to pull in the 250k. Should you give away 5k per year? 25k? 50? 75? Should you tithe to the world, before or after taxes? I don't know. I know it creeps me out when I hear upper middle class people say that they pay taxes and that that's the end of it for them. And I know that I've spent money on all sorts of stuff I don't or didn't need, and that living in your own society and spending some money on having some fun in life seems normal to me. A Sinn watch? How the heck much do you pay for an apartment in NY, LA, DC, etc.? Are people noble if they spend 80 bucks a month less? Evil if they spend 75 bucks a month more? Does it matter to anybody else besides the vendors if the balance is spent on coffee or toys? Beats the heck out of me. I've got a couple of nice watches, others have less, others have more, mea culpa.

[Ray]

Well, we're on the verge of having the same discussion about watches that we've had a number of times about bikes and I don't know where you draw the right/wrong line. But when we live in a world where Americans/westerners consume some obscene percentage of the world's resources relative to our percentage of the population and at a time when the very sustainability of the species on the planet is increasingly in question, I think its a valid topic to discuss. Now, in terms of resources, bikes and watches are relative non-issues, but I think they're symptomatic of the larger issue. Which is that by consuming faaaaaaar more than we need to, there IS an impact on the ability of others, elsewhere on the globe, to get what they need. Maybe not a direct relationship between putting X bike in my garage or Y watch on my wrist and a particular starving Nigerian's ability to obtain food, but a general connection nonetheless between our highly consumptive ways and the ability of many struggling populations to even get by. Like destroying rainforests or whatever for out luxury goods eliminating the ability of indigenous populations to continue their subsistence agriculture (that's a concept, not a specific example I could defend under cross-examination, so don't bother).

Do I, self-righteous as I'd like to be, do enough to justify any self-satisfaction? Not even close. But I try to make conscious decisions to consume as little fuel as possible (or at least far less than I'd grown accustomed to), to not buy bottled water that's being shipped all over hell and back when I can get it out of the tap, to buy as much locally produced food as possible to limit the impacts from shipping THAT all over hell and back. If everyone did as much as I do, it would help a little. If everyone did as much as I SHOULD do, it might help a lot. I still drink coffee grown in exotic places for my luxury that's probably costing someone the ability to grow a crop they could eat. We all have our vices, but we should at least be aware of them and understand that they're not without impact and perhaps adjust our lifestyles just a bit.

Again, just sayin',

BTW, Sarah Silverman is not a finite resource :cool:

-Ray

[Ozz]

I just like nice shiny things that don't get thrown away when they break.... ;)

[zeroking17]

Well, we're on the verge of having the same discussion about watches that we've had a number of times about bikes and I don't know where you draw the right/wrong line. But when we live in a world where Americans/westerners consume some obscene percentage of the world's resources relative to our percentage of the population and at a time when the very sustainability of the species on the planet is increasingly in question, I think its a valid topic to discuss. Now, in terms of resources, bikes and watches are relative non-issues, but I think they're symptomatic of the larger issue. Which is that by consuming faaaaaaar more than we need to, there IS an impact on the ability of others, elsewhere on the globe, to get what they need. Maybe not a direct relationship between putting X bike in my garage or Y watch on my wrist and a particular starving Nigerian's ability to obtain food, but a general connection nonetheless between our highly consumptive ways and the ability of many struggling populations to even get by. Like destroying rainforests or whatever for out luxury goods eliminating the ability of indigenous populations to continue their subsistence agriculture (that's a concept, not a specific example I could defend under cross-examination, so don't bother).

Do I, self-righteous as I'd like to be, do enough to justify any self-satisfaction? Not even close. But I try to make conscious decisions to consume as little fuel as possible (or at least far less than I'd grown accustomed to), to not buy bottled water that's being shipped all over hell and back when I can get it out of the tap, to buy as much locally produced food as possible to limit the impacts from shipping THAT all over hell and back. If everyone did as much as I do, it would help a little. If everyone did as much as I SHOULD do, it might help a lot. I still drink coffee grown in exotic places for my luxury that's probably costing someone the ability to grow a crop they could eat. We all have our vices, but we should at least be aware of them and understand that they're not without impact and perhaps adjust our lifestyles just a bit.

-Ray

Great post. I value your insights and appreciate your clear-eyed honesty. And I identify with much of what you express.

[Louis]

Just because it's difficult to draw the line doesn't mean you shouldn't do so. And you should be prepared to justify your choice. Is saying "Well, that's what works for me" enough? I don't think so, but is there some moral code that will work for all of us? I have not heard of one yet.

I'm hanging on to both of my kidneys. (Unless my sister needs one.) How much more can I do? That's something I wrestle with all the time.

Louis

[Ray]

Just because it's difficult to draw the line doesn't mean you shouldn't do so. And you should be prepared to justify your choice. Is saying "Well, that's what works for me" enough? I don't think so, but is there some moral code that will work for all of us? I have not heard of one yet.
Well, its tough to quantify. I mean, we, as a culture, clearly consume TOO MUCH. You could barely argue with that. But you can't measure exactly how much wouldn't be too much. As soon as you did, anyone could probably poke a zillion holes in your reasoning. So its sort of a useless exercise. The main point is to think about what you do on a daily basis, acknowledge the impact, and do what you can to reduce it. Everyone will come to a different conclusion about what "do what you can" means, but if everyone even TRIED just a little, it would make a pretty notable dent. I mean, crap, just for example, the average American household makes ten automotive trips per day. You think, just MAYBE, we could live with six or eight? It matters. The government isn't gonna do it for us.

-Ray

[Louis]

I mean, crap, just for example, the average American household makes ten automotive trips per day. You think, just MAYBE, we could live with six or eight? It matters.

The folks down in Atlanta are finding out that a resource they took to be infinite just a few months ago is indeed limited. (How many gallons of water per person does your household use? I use less than 10.)

I'm guessing that unless someone figures out how to make cold fusion work some time soon, we'll be seeing the same thing for oil within our lifetimes. That will not be fun. But, it will be nice when all the leaf-blowers are gone...

[Ray]

I'm guessing that unless someone figures out how to make cold fusion work some time soon, we'll be seeing the same thing for oil within our lifetimes. That will not be fun. But, it will be nice when all the leaf-blowers are gone...
Yep. I hope you're wrong, but I don't think we should assume you're wrong. I saw an article this morning with various oil experts speculating on the true price of oil over the next few decades. It hit $100 last week and then dropped some, but with Asia coming online and pushing demand exponentially in the face of steady or falling supplies, it isn't likely to be pretty. Some of them, including Matthew Simmons or something (who was on Cheyney's secret energy task force back in the day fercristsadkes - far from a screaming leftist!) was anticipating prices reaching $300 per barrel within the next 20-30 years. Others felt that the price would reduce demand so that it wouldn't get that high, but clearly with India and China coming on line, it's gonna go up enough to cripple our economies if we don't come up with alternatives that may or may not be possible. But instead of reducing demand in the face of obvious supply limitations, we're still accelerating demand! Heading for a brick wall? Do you brake? Hell no - drive FASTER!

We are cursed to live in interesting times.

-Ray

[mikemets]

Maybe I won't start a thread about pens :rolleyes:

[Blue Jays]

Observing an intricate movement via a see-through caseback would occupy me for hours. Almost like staring at flames in a roaring fireplace! :D

[Blue Jays]

Obtaining a watch built in Switzerland also a great method to spread American goodwill to other places at reasonable expense by helping their economies.

[schadenfreude]

Obtaining a watch built in Switzerland also a great method to spread American goodwill to other places at reasonable expense by helping their economies.

How do you figure? :rolleyes:

[Blue Jays]

I've got a friend who lives on the east coast who is on the waiting list for the IWC Pilot's Watch Double Chronograph TOP GUN #IW379901 and should be placing the order March 2008 when they're available to the jeweler with whom he does business. Can't wait to see that beautiful masterpiece someday.

https://www.iwc.com/collection/_img/4_0_pilotswatches/3799_001_l.jpg...https://www.iwc.com/collection/_img/4_0_pilotswatches/3799_001_back.jpg

[sailorboy]

jeezus, to me that watch screams POSER! I mean, unless you are actually a Naval aviator; and if you were and you wore this, its probably overkill anyhow, you would have no business wearing this.

Kinda reminds me of all that marketing crap put out about Luminox watches being the 'official' watches of the Navy SEALs. I worked with a lot of them for about 18 months and never saw one of them wearing a luminox to work. Most of them wore simple g-shocks, yep thats right, or some version of a suunto compass watch that they got from their supply department.

atmo

[mikemets]

My dive watch is good to 4000 ft below sea level, yet, it will never see more than about 9 ft ;)

[dbrk]

jeezus, to me that watch screams POSER! I mean, unless you are actually a Naval aviator; and if you were and you wore this, its probably overkill anyhow, you would have no business wearing this.
...snip...
atmo

Posing is one thing and imposing is another. The later presents moral issues, the former is just bad taste. If some fella' likes this watch or an "official" anything, who's to care? It's not about "qualifications," it's about having what you like. The watch itself--- well, not the back--- strikes me as better than some (and to each his own). IWC is marketing, not supplying Top Guns. And if they are then the Top Guns aren't paying for them. If someone would like to supply me with a Philippe Dufour Simplicity as the Official Watch of Poser Sanskritists Who Like the Simple Ways of Old French Style Bikes, I'm all over it.

dbrk
p.s. Don't take any part of this note too seriously except the bit about being my Dufour sponsor...

[djg]

... If someone would like to supply me with a Philippe Dufour Simplicity as the Official Watch of Poser Sanskritists Who Like the Simple Ways of Old French Style Bikes, I'm all over it.

dbrk
p.s. Don't take any part of this note too seriously except the bit about being my Dufour sponsor...

I thought you were an actual Sanskritist who likes old French style bikes. Standing corrected, I have sent this decade's PD Simplicity prize to a deserving scholar who had been second on our list.

[barry1021]

Seiko automatic. You absolutely can't kill them, they have a simple classic look and they are inexpensive. Having said that, you don't see many people wearing them. You're far more likely to see someone wearing a knockoff Rolex or Omega than you are a nice Seiko auto. When you use one you begin to wonder why someone would spend more. Bulletproof.

20 years wearing it everyday, never a problem

b21

[mikemets]

Posing is one thing and imposing is another. The later presents moral issues, the former is just bad taste. If some fella' likes this watch or an "official" anything, who's to care? It's not about "qualifications," it's about having what you like. The watch itself--- well, not the back--- strikes me as better than some (and to each his own). IWC is marketing, not supplying Top Guns. And if they are then the Top Guns aren't paying for them. If someone would like to supply me with a Philippe Dufour Simplicity as the Official Watch of Poser Sanskritists Who Like the Simple Ways of Old French Style Bikes, I'm all over it.

dbrk
p.s. Don't take any part of this note too seriously except the bit about being my Dufour sponsor...

*Really good article on Philippe Dufour in the current, December 2007, issue of WatchTime.

[dbrk]

I thought you were an actual Sanskritist who likes old French style bikes. Standing corrected, I have sent this decade's PD Simplicity prize to a deserving scholar who had been second on our list.

Doh. That's Sanskrit for...doh!

dbrk

p.s. As far as I can tell, watches don't tell time; they merely confirm certain useful fictions that allow us to interact. Btw, how much does that IWC weigh?
Has any one ever noticed that a really well-made mechanical watch feels great even if it weighs more than the carbon fiber...I mean, quartz ones?

[soulspinner]

Well, we're on the verge of having the same discussion about watches that we've had a number of times about bikes and I don't know where you draw the right/wrong line. But when we live in a world where Americans/westerners consume some obscene percentage of the world's resources relative to our percentage of the population and at a time when the very sustainability of the species on the planet is increasingly in question, I think its a valid topic to discuss. Now, in terms of resources, bikes and watches are relative non-issues, but I think they're symptomatic of the larger issue. Which is that by consuming faaaaaaar more than we need to, there IS an impact on the ability of others, elsewhere on the globe, to get what they need. Maybe not a direct relationship between putting X bike in my garage or Y watch on my wrist and a particular starving Nigerian's ability to obtain food, but a general connection nonetheless between our highly consumptive ways and the ability of many struggling populations to even get by. Like destroying rainforests or whatever for out luxury goods eliminating the ability of indigenous populations to continue their subsistence agriculture (that's a concept, not a specific example I could defend under cross-examination, so don't bother).

Do I, self-righteous as I'd like to be, do enough to justify any self-satisfaction? Not even close. But I try to make conscious decisions to consume as little fuel as possible (or at least far less than I'd grown accustomed to), to not buy bottled water that's being shipped all over hell and back when I can get it out of the tap, to buy as much locally produced food as possible to limit the impacts from shipping THAT all over hell and back. If everyone did as much as I do, it would help a little. If everyone did as much as I SHOULD do, it might help a lot. I still drink coffee grown in exotic places for my luxury that's probably costing someone the ability to grow a crop they could eat. We all have our vices, but we should at least be aware of them and understand that they're not without impact and perhaps adjust our lifestyles just a bit.

Again, just sayin',

BTW, Sarah Silverman is not a finite resource :cool:

-Ray


I feel the same way. Citizen Ecodrive.

[Tony Edwards]

Christian, thanks for the kind words. You similarly have great taste in watches! I've been an admirer of the Sinn 656 for years and I've been hoping & praying they increase the size to 42mm someday.
I would have to dig into into my old editions of WatchTime Magazine as I seem to recall the hardened steel Sinn selected for that model was incredibly durable.

:beer:


The 656 isn't made from the Tegiment hardened steel (or at least mine isn't). My 656 was made in about 2001 or 2002, and isn't particularly robust - it has a few dings and scratches even though I don't wear it especially often. I do like the watch, though.

[Blue Jays]

sailorboy, that IWC watch is a beautiful, 46mm, ceramic & titanium engineering wonder. The person who would likely strap it to his or her wrist is doing it in respect and admiration for the men and women who have been to Top Gun and make sacrifices everyday. You'll notice there is no additional language to be seen anywhere else on the watch other than day, date, brand and location of manufacture. The TG designation is only shown on the caseback, where it would be hidden by the wrist:

https://www.iwc.com/collection/_img/4_0_pilotswatches/3799_001_l.jpg

The other limiting factor is this is a mechanically-complex doppelchronograph model. The person stepping up to this model has likely owned quite a few high-end watches in his or her lifetime. It very probably would not be worn under demanding conditions. That duty would typically be performed by a sturdy Casio G-Shock or similar watch. This watch is certainly out of my league for the foreseeable future and I can't wait to see it in a few months.

:beer:

[Blue Jays]

"...The 656 isn't made from the Tegiment hardened steel (or at least mine isn't). My 656 was made in about 2001 or 2002, and isn't particularly robust - it has a few dings and scratches even though I don't wear it especially often. I do like the watch, though..."Tony Edwards, your memory is better than mine. All my old WatchTime magazines are in my storage unit, so I searched their website and I think this is the article (http://www.watchtime.com/archive/wt_2003_02/WT_2003_02_test_sinn_756.pdf) that I recalled.

You are 100% absolutely correct that the new enhanced steel was used in the 756 rather than the 656 model.

[maunahaole]

Hey watch junkies - My seiko monster has recently developed an annoying habit. The fliplock on the stainless bracelet pops open on its own. The holes in the fliplock do not line up with the pins in the clasp - anyone know of an easy fix on this? I googled and found some instructions, but it referred to a picture that was no longer available.
thanks

[manet]

Not a sports watch, but an example of a traditional watchmakers art.

pro talk to me about this gadget during our turkey ride or sunday's up-the-pike.

[e-RICHIE]

pro talk to me about this gadget during our turkey ride or sunday's up-the-pike.
that's so craigs list atmo.

[A.L.Breguet]

These aren't too shabby, especially the one in WG.

[Blue Jays]

..
..
Jan Ullrich was an awesome rider. I dig the idea he partnered with IWC for one of their great GST rattrapante sport watches in titanium limited to 500 pieces. It bears his signature on the caseback:

http://www.rolandtaennler.ch/data/images/full/20060313-091729-z630.jpg

http://www.janullrich.de/media/I041040/000061.jpg

https://www.iwc.ch/communication/events/_img/illu_impressions_03-en.jpg

http://images.timeofswitzerland.com/1large/IWC_3715.jpg

[A.L.Breguet]

..
..
Jan Ullrich was an awesome rider. I dig the idea he partnered with IWC for one of their great GST rattrapante sport watches in titanium limited to 500 pieces. It bears his signature on the caseback:

http://www.rolandtaennler.ch/data/images/full/20060313-091729-z630.jpg

http://www.janullrich.de/media/I041040/000061.jpg

https://www.iwc.ch/communication/events/_img/illu_impressions_03-en.jpg

http://images.timeofswitzerland.com/1large/IWC_3715.jpg
3 of these pictures are cool. :cool:

[Louis]

In case you were wondering, everything I choose to spend my money on is practical and necessary. (Example: Timex digital watch that is now on my wrist.)

What other people choose to spend their money on: Conspicuous over-consumption extravagances brought on by our capitalist consumer culture to compensate for deep-seated sexual inadequacies. (Examples: any watch / bike / car / home / etc. out there that costs more than mine.)

Louis

PS – have you done all your X-mas / holiday shopping yet? Get out there and spend!

[A.L.Breguet]

In case you were wondering, everything I choose to spend my money on is practical and necessary. (Example: Timex digital watch that is now on my wrist.)

What other people choose to spend their money on: Conspicuous over-consumption extravagances brought on by our capitalist consumer culture to compensate for deep-seated sexual inadequacies. (Examples: any watch / bike / car / home / etc. out there that costs more than mine.)

Louis

PS – have you done all your X-mas / holiday shopping yet? Get out there and spend!
This watch costs more than most homes. Is that bad?

[Blue Jays]

"This watch costs more than most homes. Is that bad?"Nope, it's not bad. In fact, it's SWEEEEET!

:beer:

[dbrk]

snip...
What other people choose to spend their money on: Conspicuous over-consumption extravagances brought on by our capitalist consumer culture to compensate for deep-seated sexual inadequacies. (Examples: any watch / bike / car / home / etc. out there that costs more than mine.)
Louis...snip...


My deep-seated sexual inadequacies include the deep-seated desire to be deep-seated in a Porsche 911...and that's long before I'm walkin' down the hallway in velcro sneakers callin' some woman I don't know Momma.

dbrk

[e-RICHIE]

i saved a bundle on car insurance by switching to geico atmo.

[Louis]

This watch costs more than most homes. Is that bad?

You've been hanging out in the wrong neighborhood.

For us that’s a mere pittance, chump change, stuff we find between the cushions of our au-pairs’ basement rec-room sofa.

[rounder]

My deep-seated sexual inadequacies include the deep-seated desire to be deep-seated in a Porsche 911...and that's long before I'm walkin' down the hallway in velcro sneakers callin' some woman I don't know Momma.

dbrk

There are lots of beautiful cars out there, but the car that knocked me out the most of all time when I saw it was a red porsche speedster that someone drove at an autocross at the mall. The thing screamed and scored fastest time of the day for its class. I know I will never own one but, if ever had my choice, that would be it.

[manet]

is that a watch down in front


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/liberty-custom-wood-garage-doors.jpg

[jimp1234]

I find it very interesting how this thread started off talking about high priced watches and has veered into a philosophical discussion about the morality of conspiuous consumerism. I can't help but wonder if a thread about high end bicycles on a watch forum would have taken a similar turn. My take on the question of whether "conspicuous" consumerism is either good or bad is that I don't know, but what I do know is that the answer may be a lot more complicated and involved than it appears to be on the surface. For example, I'm old to remember the arguments put forth by the writer Paul Erhlich, who for those who haven't heard of him espoused the Malthusian argument that exponential population increases would result in world wide scarcity of everything including food,water, and all commodities, which would cause massive famines, wars resulting from scarcity,etc. This led to the famous bet in 1980 between Erhlich and the economist Julian Simon about what the price of a "basket" of commodities would be in 1990, ten years later. Ehrlich believed of course, that commodity prices would be higher, while Simon held whats been called the "Cornucopia Theory" which posited that rising prices would result in technological advances which would in turn result in lower prices. Population in the 80's increased faster than any time before with an increase of over 800 million people worldwide. Who won the bet? Simon. My point is that what may appear on the surface to be the obvious "answer" may not always be the case. So would I make the argument that the unbridled purchasing of Hummmers, Porsches, Rolexes and Serotta's is "better for the world"? No probably not, but I wouldn't automatically rule out arguments or theories that postulate that to be the case either. Fundamentally I believe there is no "easy" answer to just about anything. Please take the above comments in the non-combative spirit in which they were intended and as an opportunity to dialog about an interesting topic. (or please don't flame me). :beer:

PS - Full disclosure, I have no Hummers or Porshces, but I have a Rolex Submariner and an Omega Railmaster, and lets not forget the Ottrott.

-Jim

[rounder]

Will we be hearing of the "RGM - RS Affair" in a future TDF?

Probably Bob Roll will make some comment like...yeah well. i was sort of new at this and accidently bumped Sean Kelly in the ditch and sk looked at me and said...***...were you admiring your watch instead of watching the gd road??? And Bob would say...eh?? Sorry didn't hear you...listening to the ipod.

[Louis]

I can't help but wonder if a thread about high end bicycles on a watch forum would have taken a similar turn.

Perhaps.

I wonder which is further from it's "initial, intended by God, true nature, fundamental purpose, not perverted by man’s grubby nature”: a Meivici or a diamond-encrusted, ruby-studded, baby seal skin – banded watch?

Of course I’m biased, but I think the watch is the worse offense.

Louis

[e-RICHIE]

Of course I’m biased, but I think the watch is the worse offense.

Louis
why is that atmo?

[dbrk]

snip... I can't help but wonder if a thread about high end bicycles on a watch forum would have taken a similar turn. My take on the question of whether "conspicuous" consumerism is either good or bad is that I don't know, but what I do know is that the answer may be a lot more complicated and involved than it appears to be on the surface...snip
-Jim

I lurk on a few different watch forum and it's more or less forbidden to discuss costs, prices, or relative value; in short, none of the conversation, debate, and angst that haunts us every few months over a few thousand in bicycles. I think it may have something to do with the fact that few of these enthusiasts are Americans who, ironically perhaps, may be more conspicuous consumers than some but are far, far more guilty about their pleasures than apparently others. A few thousand just doesn't trouble those whose hobby starts at about 5K-6K for the cheap stuff and routinely wanders up near 25K-100K. Most of these enthusiasts have many more watches than I have bicycles (that would be, by most counts an "enthusiasts" number) and waaaay more in assets tied up in timepieces. But unlike bikes most of these watches actually increase or retain their monetary value. Still, like those rabbits in that warren in Watership Down who never, ever talk about those who vanish while the rest are fat and happy, there is never talk about money, never. Everyone instead just talks about watches without the slightest notion that they cost a fortune...your victory may vary!

dbrk

[Blue Jays]

The solution is very easy for those who don't dig well-crafted mechanical watches, just don't purchase 'em!
Those who dislike handcrafted Serottas, Spectrums, Kirks, Parlees, Moots, Independent Fabrications, Richard Sachs, and similar should similarly avoid 'em!

I truly imagine this would result in a perfect solution (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00000634J001001/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_001/102-6356313-8318565) for everyone!

:beer:

[Louis]

why is that atmo?

Richard,

The way I see things “stuff” we own / buy has a fundamental purpose and a bunch of other purposes that we tend to load on.

Example: A car’s fundamental purpose is to provide transportation for our bodies and our junk. Examples of the purposes we tend to load on to cars: 1) social validation to help us fit in a given clique, social niche, whatever, (to make others feel good about us) 2) Personal validation (to make us feel good about ourselves) 3) attraction of the opposite sex, etc.

However far the Meivici and the “fancy watch” may have wandered from their fundamental purpose (a bike to be ridden and something that tells time, respectively) I think the Meivici is nearer to that purpose, while the fancy watch is freighted with more non-time related meaning. Hence to me the watch is the worse offense.

Louis

[Louis]

The solution is very easy for those who don't dig well-crafted mechanical watches, just don't purchase 'em!
Those who dislike handcrafted Serottas, Spectrums, Kirks, Parlees, Moots, Independent Fabrications, Richard Sachs, and similar should similarly avoid 'em!

The point is to have interesting discussion, not to solve the problem !!!

[e-RICHIE]

Richard,

The way I see things “stuff” we own / buy has a fundamental purpose and a bunch of other purposes that we tend to load on.

Example: A car’s fundamental purpose is to provide transportation for our bodies and our junk. Examples of the purposes we tend to load on to cars: 1) social validation to help us fit in a given clique, social niche, whatever, (to make others feel good about us) 2) Personal validation (to make us feel good about ourselves) 3) attraction of the opposite sex, etc.

However far the Meivici and the “fancy watch” may have wandered from their fundamental purpose (a bike to be ridden and something that tells time, respectively) I think the Meivici is nearer to that purpose, while the fancy watch is freighted with more non-time related meaning. Hence to me the watch is the worse offense.

Louis
but essentially the meivici and its ilk are performance bicycles,
not meant for a paper route. to use these for club rides at 16mph
with 6 banana stops is also, er - near to a worst offense atmo.
i know - you are smiling. as far as i am concerned, watches and
bikes are things. period. all this opining about their cost and
relative meaning in the scheme of humanity sounds like fm radio
to me atmo. with apologies to the alvy singer character in annie hall.

[dbrk]

The point is to have interesting discussion, not to solve the problem !!!


With this, I could not agree more.

But I just don't see why any "stuff" ---bikes, watches, whatever--- is a problem to own if it's not hurting anyone else. The idea that we own things primarily for function rather than for beauty or any of a number of other reasons strikes me as just another way to construct value. What is at stake is value, not function. We can have different values. I own a few bikes I don't ride and likely won't. They aren't less bikes but their "function" is to hang out with me 'cause I like them.

dbrk

[conorb]

snip...

However far the Meivici and the “fancy watch” may have wandered from their fundamental purpose (a bike to be ridden and something that tells time, respectively) I think the Meivici is nearer to that purpose, while the fancy watch is freighted with more non-time related meaning. Hence to me the watch is the worse offense.

Louis[/QUOTE]

No one I know; and I know several watch geeks, WIS, whatever, buys a "fancy watch" to tell the time.

It's so much more than that.

Conor

[rounder]

With this, I could not agree more.

But I just don't see why any "stuff" ---bikes, watches, whatever--- is a problem to own if it's not hurting anyone else. The idea that we own things primarily for function rather than for beauty or any of a number of other reasons strikes me as just another way to construct value. What is at stake is value, not function. We can have different values. I own a few bikes I don't ride and likely won't. They aren't less bikes but their "function" is to hang out with me 'cause I like them.

dbrk

Agree with that. Ride what you like and keep time with what you like. If you work hard and knock your self out every day, while being true to family and friends, why shouldn't you be allowed to choose or indulge in what you like. If you have them because they make you fit, you can win with them, they give you hope, they will increase in value some day, you just like the way they look, etc. what difference does it make.

[Blue Jays]

"One should ride what they like and keep time with what they like. If one works hard and knocks himself/herself out every day, while being true to family & friends, one should choose/indulge in what one likes. If one owns bicycles and watches because they make one healthy, one can win with them, they give one hope, they potentially increase in value someday, or one simply likes the way they look, what difference does it make?"You made an outstanding post and spread a peaceful message with regard to maintaining simultaneous hobbies.

:beer:

[slowgoing]

My cell phone has turned into my watch - don't wear one on my wrist. Never liked the bulky/heavy feeling. Bought an Omega a while back for trips out of town but it hasn't seen the light of day in years.

[Louis]

The idea that we own things primarily for function rather than for beauty or any of a number of other reasons strikes me as just another way to construct value. What is at stake is value, not function. We can have different values.

True, there are a number of ways to create value, but the further you drift from the fundamental function the more difficult it is to justify the product. How big do the tail-fins have to get before people finally decide that they're tacky? Is there "true" beauty, or is it just socially constructed? I'm pretty sure it's the latter. If so, we're all just puppets jerking to the tune of the master marketers, buying what they want us to buy. Do you have a few more bucks in your pocket than the next guy? Well someone will find way to sell you a slightly fancier, more expensive widget than what he bought.


But I just don't see why any "stuff" ---bikes, watches, whatever--- is a problem to own if it's not hurting anyone else.

The issue, as I see it, is whether or not one can have / consume too much. There's a limit to the resources available to go around, and there is such a thing as waste. Just because you can afford to let the water run while you brush your teeth doesn't mean that you should. Just ask the folks in Georgia. The retired couple down the road from me who just built a 12,000 square foot house probably didn't think that they were hurting anyone else, but I think they are part of our problem, and they are hurting someone. Maybe not right now, but in the long run there will be a price to pay. Whether it's national debt, carbon emissions, or waste of resources, who knows, but it isn't free.

all this opining about their cost and relative meaning in the scheme of humanity sounds like fm radio to me atmo. .

I'm flattered. As you might have guessed from my politics, I'm a big NPR fan.

Louis

[Ray]

Douglas said:

But I just don't see why any "stuff" ---bikes, watches, whatever--- is a problem to own if it's not hurting anyone else.

To which Louis responded:

The issue, as I see it, is whether or not one can have / consume too much. There's a limit to the resources available to go around, and there is such a thing as waste. Just because you can afford to let the water run while you brush your teeth doesn't mean that you should. Just ask the folks in Georgia. The retired couple down the road from me who just built a 12,000 square foot house probably didn't think that they were hurting anyone else, but I think they are part of our problem, and they are hurting someone. Maybe not right now, but in the long run there will be a price to pay. Whether it's national debt, carbon emissions, or waste of resources, who knows, but it isn't free.

I think this is the crux of the matter and the point I was trying to make a few pages back. I don't give a rip what someone enjoys in terms of the value the 'market' decides to give it, but I do give a rip about resource consumption. And I suspect both bikes and watches use few enough resources that they're more or less non-issues. If the market of human wants and emotions bids the price of a watch or bike up to some amount that I find to be insane, that doesn't bother me because it isn't' really taking food off of someone elses plate.

But buying Porshces and Hummers and big energy-inefficient homes that require constant use of said porshces and hummers to go pick up a loaf of bread and a case of bottled water.... I think that stuff has a price and IS hurting someone else. Jim made a good point about the extravagances of the 80s actually helping most people in most places. And I agree that capitalism is an amazingly efficient system for getting the most out of the resources we have available and has done a remarkable job of it. But I believe the earth does have a carrying capacity and some resources are finite. Nobody knows exactly how much is too much but at some point we're going to realize we blew it. I'd personally like to avoid this fate or, at least, put it off as long as possible so that my grandchildren can enjoy some fraction of the life I've been fortunate enough to enjoy. And I think not being wasteful is an important step in that effort.

But, as I said, bikes and watches are only symbolic - they're pikers on the resource scale. And bikes, to the extent that they're used for utilitarian purposes in additional to recreational, are actually a net positive I'd bet. And who knows - maybe there's nothing we can do and it's too late and we may as well enjoy the last few numbers from this fine orchestra before this titanic of a civilization goes down. But maybe not. I think we should at least be trying...

-Ray

[andy mac]

I used to have a tag heur something or other, automatic movement, cronometer (very nice gift). after it broke while jogging on the C&O canal near georgetown, (stop/start button popped off and it ran sloow) I had it fixed under warranty and I traded it in on an IWC aquatimer. that IWC just came back from a warranty repair (chronometer hour hand came off). I would like an automatic movement that will take jogging, biking, showering, maybe swimming (lap swims). I read up on it and thought the IWC was a good choice. If it goes south again, what would you horology types recommend instead?
jim


how secure are you??

http://www.timex.com/gp/node/n/267161011?ie=UTF8&timexBrand=core

:beer:

[andy mac]

This might be a bit off topic, but anyhow, here goes...

This thread really got me to thinking about how people spend money. My girlfriend and I had a nice discussion on the topic after looking at this thread. I agree these watches are very nice, and in particular the Sinn watches really appeal to me, but even when we get out of school I don't think I could ever justify it. We've both got six-figure jobs waiting on us when we graduate in a year and very likely will get married so the household income should allow for us to divulge in our hobbies/interests as we wish. (not to mention cost of living is very, very cheap in this area). But I just don't think I could ever do it.

One good example of this, is with autos. I've been into cars since I turned 16. Have raced autocross for many seasons, and I guess would qualify as a driving "enthusiast". I always imagined myself with a nice sports car sometime down the road, but as I've grown up a bit I don't think I could do it anymore. Basically when I look around and see that so many people in our country or the world don't have many of the basic necessities of life such as healthcare, education, proper and safe housing, how could I spend so much money on an what is an extravagance of an already extravagant lifestyle (globally speaking)?

Yes, I know nice bikes are an extravagance as well, but I figure if I only have one financial vice, cycling is not that bad. Everyone needs an outlet for stress relief, cycling is mine, and as long as you don't go too overboard it's really not that expensive.

Does anyone feel the same? Also please don't let me offend anyone, I'm not judging, just airing some thoughts. :)


some other observations - don't assume you will be earning that money forever. i know plenty of young people who earned great money until the dotcom/sept 11 crash and haven't ever found a job at that level of income again.

and another crash is coming i suspect...

i was born in australia and moved to the usa in my 20's. i couldn't believe the consumption difference - especially in non-appreciating assets. many american friends had great cars, boats, bikes, watches, motorcycles, big monthly cable bills etc but not a house nor were they maxing out their 401k's.

i'm in my late 30's now and saving/investing early has enabled me to buy a sweet house now and shares - hopefully setting us up for life.

my 2 cents, spend less than you earn, pay off your loans and house asap, stash some away if you plan of having kids, donate a level that makes you happy, don't seek happiness in too many material items.

hey, trying watching a kid with one toy then a kid with 500 toys...

don't know about you guys but i had just as much fun being 'poor' at college and always had enough $ to get drunk.

:beer:

[TACSTS]

Wow, my most sucessful thread deraillment to date! Is it wrong that I feel just a bit proud? :cool: Anyhow, I think it has been a great discussion, and it also speaks volumes about the caliber of posters on this site that it has remained so civil for 11 pages thus far.

I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments. It's nice to know that there are others with the same perspective as me, as well as to hear the standpoint from those that differ in opinion.

Andy Mac: your advice is certainly sound. I know that nothing is guaranteed in the job market, but I feel that my field (healthcare) is probably not going to go anywhere soon. Nevertheless, I definitely think like you said living within your means is important and I plan on doing that. Maybe that was at the crux of this whole issue for me. Seeing so many people that are over their head with debt, just because they can't handle not having more than their neighbor. Be it a flashy car, huge house, or in this case an extravagant watch, just for the sake of social status. I just can't get on board with that, it's not how I was raised.

Whether or not American consumerism hurts the rest of the world, I can't say but I feel that it certainly isn't helping. The US is what, about 5% of the worlds population, but we use a LOT more than 5% of available resources. Is that just? To the victors go the spoils? Hard to say. But when you think about it there is someone in Africa/Asia/etc. that you AREN'T. By Grace, we're comfortable here in America, but what did any of us do to earn that? By luck of birth we're here and have opportunities to have all we want, but other people never get that chance through no fault of theirs. I know there's realistically nothing that we can each do about that, but maybe just think about it sometimes and be thankful.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[Pete Serotta]

:banana: :banana: :banana:

With this, I could not agree more.

But I just don't see why any "stuff" ---bikes, watches, whatever--- is a problem to own if it's not hurting anyone else. The idea that we own things primarily for function rather than for beauty or any of a number of other reasons strikes me as just another way to construct value. What is at stake is value, not function. We can have different values. I own a few bikes I don't ride and likely won't. They aren't less bikes but their "function" is to hang out with me 'cause I like them.

dbrk

[Polyglot]

I don't quite understand the attraction of high priced quartz watches, but do quite enjoy mechanical watches. Here are a few of the ones that I wear from time to time. I'm sorry about the poor quality of the photos, but you do what you can. The first one is a Zenith with El Primero movement. it beats at 36000 alterations which means it is the only watch that can actually measure in tenths of a second. The second is a one-button Breitling stop chronograph from the 50's. The third is a Breitling Chronomat from the 60's. Then a one button Eterna chronograph from the 40's and then good old standby Rolex Datejust from the 60's.

[vaxn8r]

I don't know about you guys but I sleep on a $60,000 mattress. Is that wrong?

http://time-blog.com/work_in_progress/2007/07/wealth.html

[jimcav]

how secure are you??

http://www.timex.com/gp/node/n/267161011?ie=UTF8&timexBrand=core

:beer:
not sure what you meant, but i want/desire a never-have-to-take-off automatic mechanical. i don't want it for status--i want it because i admire the hand made mechanical movement that can withstand the use.
jim

[Louis]

I don't know about you guys but I sleep on a $60,000 mattress. Is that wrong?

Not if it also comes with a Swedish masseusse...

[J.Greene]

I agree with DBRK completely.

I'd like to add though that I'f I had to choose between my wall hangers and nice bikes and my friends I have met through cycling I'd choose my friends. If I had to choose between my bikes and the experiences I have had with bikes I'd choose the experiences without thinking.

I helped an internal rep of a company i do business with buy a bike recently. She got a cheaper entry level bike. Something I would not ride. But the ride reports she sends every few weeks about the rides she does in CO really highlights to me what life should be about atmo.

Those are my values, but I understand if I'm the only one who feels that way.

JG

[schadenfreude]

Tony Edwards, your memory is better than mine. All my old WatchTime magazines are in my storage unit, so I searched their website and I think this is the article (http://www.watchtime.com/archive/wt_2003_02/WT_2003_02_test_sinn_756.pdf) that I recalled.

You are 100% absolutely correct that the new enhanced steel was used in the 756 rather than the 656 model.

Blue Jays, are you a program?

[Blue Jays]

Polyglot, love your pictures...especially that cool-looking Eterna model. That company has made some fantastic watches over the years.

[Blue Jays]

Wow, the newer Eterna KonTiki (http://www.eterna.ch/) models are pretty darn sharp. The older versions of this watch were equally as nice. Take a look at the fresh versions and other cool ones on the Eterna site listed.
Not sure if this one made it into production as shown, and they would definitely have a winner on their hands:

http://top100watchsites.com/news/photos/watch0115.jpg

[A.L.Breguet]

Polyglot, love your pictures...especially that cool-looking Eterna model. That company has made some fantastic watches over the years.
Eterna live on. In addition to the revived brand name, don't forget that Eterna became part of Ebauche S.A. in the 60's, wich eventually became known as ETA. ETA is now owned by the Swatch Group. The vast majority of swiss mechanicals are fitted with ETA movements.
History lesson over. :)

[Blue Jays]

A.L. Breguet, I must say I haven't viewed the Swatch Group website to see what else Mr. Hayek may have acquired!
It appears Eterna was subsequently sold to F.A. Porsche Design about a decade ago. I also saw this interesting Eterna timeline:

***************

Eterna Milestones

1856
November 7, Dr. Josef Girard and schoolteacher Urs Schild create the company that later became known as Eterna.

1906
The founding of Fabrique Eterna, Schild Frères & Co. The Eterna name, used previously on the dials, becomes part of the company name.

1914
Eterna presents the first wristwatch with an alarm at the Swiss national Exhibition.

1926
The first watch-cigarette lighter. Each time the flame was ignited, the watch was wound up.

1930
The smallest volume-production Baguette wristwatch with its ‘baguette’ movement is launched and enjoys great popularity with the ladies.

1931
The manufacture of the first alarm clock with an 8-day movement.

1932
Theodor Schild divides Eterna into two distinct companies:
1. Eterna SA for the manufacture of precision watches.
2. ETA SA for the production of movement blanks.

1947
One of the first sports watches, the Eterna Kon Tiki, is used by the crew of Thor Heyerdahl’s balsa boat Kon Tiki, in the 97 day 7,600 kilometre Pacific crossing.

1948
Creation of the Eterna-Matic. For the first time ball bearings were used to mount the rotor onto a movement with automatic winding. The five ball bearings of the Eterna-Matic becomes the symbolic trademark for Eterna.

1956
In celebration of the brand’s 100th anniversary, the highly successful ‘extra slim’ Centenaire wristwatch collection is introduced.

1958
The first volume-produced Eterna-Matic Kon Tiki sports watch is launched.

1962
The Eterna-Matic 3000 at 3.4 mm thick becomes the slimmest automatic wristwatch.

1970
The introduction of the Eterna Sonic, the brand’s first electronic wristwatch.

1976
The Eterna Royal Quartz Kon Tiki, with date and water-resistance to 100 metres,becomes the slimmest quartz watch in the world.

1979
The Eterna Linea Quartz Squelette at 1.5 mm is the slimmest quartz watch
ever produced.

1980
ETA and Eterna set the absolute record with the Eterna Linea Museum at just
0.98 mm thick. Eterna awarded the Grand Prix de l’Excellence Européenne.

1981
Launch of the Eterna CXXV

1984
The PCW group takes over Eterna SA.

1986
With the Eterna Galaxis – ‘Poetry in blue’ – the brand penetrates the luxury watch segment.

1994
The renaissance of the classic Kon Tiki sports watch.

1995
F.A. Porsche takes over Eterna SA. The new Pininfarina models from Eterna are introduced. 1935 and Art Deco models.

2004
The revolutionary Porsche Design Indicator, a chronograph with combined mechanical-digital chronometer display, is launched at BaselWorld.

***************

Not quite sure how easily or not they might be to purchase at a bricks & mortar store in the United States these days.

[benb]

The expensive watches seem way harder to "get" then expensive bikes.

But at least they aren't as ridiculous as diamonds...

[e-RICHIE]

one man's ceiling is another man's flaw atmo.

[A.L.Breguet]

A.L. Breguet, I must say I haven't viewed the Swatch Group website to see what else Mr. Hayek may have acquired!
It appears Eterna was subsequently sold to F.A. Porsche Design about a decade ago. I also saw this interesting Eterna timeline:

***************

Eterna Milestones

1856
November 7, Dr. Josef Girard and schoolteacher Urs Schild create the company that later became known as Eterna.

1906
The founding of Fabrique Eterna, Schild Frères & Co. The Eterna name, used previously on the dials, becomes part of the company name.

1914
Eterna presents the first wristwatch with an alarm at the Swiss national Exhibition.

1926
The first watch-cigarette lighter. Each time the flame was ignited, the watch was wound up.

1930
The smallest volume-production Baguette wristwatch with its ‘baguette’ movement is launched and enjoys great popularity with the ladies.

1931
The manufacture of the first alarm clock with an 8-day movement.

1932
Theodor Schild divides Eterna into two distinct companies:
1. Eterna SA for the manufacture of precision watches.
2. ETA SA for the production of movement blanks.

1947
One of the first sports watches, the Eterna Kon Tiki, is used by the crew of Thor Heyerdahl’s balsa boat Kon Tiki, in the 97 day 7,600 kilometre Pacific crossing.

1948
Creation of the Eterna-Matic. For the first time ball bearings were used to mount the rotor onto a movement with automatic winding. The five ball bearings of the Eterna-Matic becomes the symbolic trademark for Eterna.

1956
In celebration of the brand’s 100th anniversary, the highly successful ‘extra slim’ Centenaire wristwatch collection is introduced.

1958
The first volume-produced Eterna-Matic Kon Tiki sports watch is launched.

1962
The Eterna-Matic 3000 at 3.4 mm thick becomes the slimmest automatic wristwatch.

1970
The introduction of the Eterna Sonic, the brand’s first electronic wristwatch.

1976
The Eterna Royal Quartz Kon Tiki, with date and water-resistance to 100 metres,becomes the slimmest quartz watch in the world.

1979
The Eterna Linea Quartz Squelette at 1.5 mm is the slimmest quartz watch
ever produced.

1980
ETA and Eterna set the absolute record with the Eterna Linea Museum at just
0.98 mm thick. Eterna awarded the Grand Prix de l’Excellence Européenne.

1981
Launch of the Eterna CXXV

1984
The PCW group takes over Eterna SA.

1986
With the Eterna Galaxis – ‘Poetry in blue’ – the brand penetrates the luxury watch segment.

1994
The renaissance of the classic Kon Tiki sports watch.

1995
F.A. Porsche takes over Eterna SA. The new Pininfarina models from Eterna are introduced. 1935 and Art Deco models.

2004
The revolutionary Porsche Design Indicator, a chronograph with combined mechanical-digital chronometer display, is launched at BaselWorld.

***************

Not quite sure how easily or not they might be to purchase at a bricks & mortar store in the United States these days.
I saw a very cool ETERNA training film from the 50's a few years back. Hmmm wonder if it's on youtube.

[Blue Jays]

A.L. Breguet, there might be a bit more Eterna history to be found if I did a search on Thor Heyerdahl and his incredible journey. It was quite a bit before my time, and there must be some insights on the watches as it relates to this storied & historic firm. Their alliance with ETA you mentioned is interesting and it's something new that I learned.

[saab2000]

This is my watch. It came to me in Zürich in 2001 and I value it. It has been extremely reliable and accurate. It is a battery operated watch with a bunch of functions. But it is extremely functional. I don't use the E6-B time/distance rotating calculator calculator on the outer rim (but I know how to at least) and I don't use the stop watch for timing my holding patterns. But I do use the dual time-zone function and the UTC function.

Is it worth the money? No. But what is? The eternal question on this forum I guess.

But I like it and if it were lost I would buy another one tomorrow.

[Polyglot]

I don't use the E6-B time/distance rotating calculator calculator on the outer rim (but I know how to at least) and I don't use the stop watch for timing my holding patterns. But I do use the dual time-zone function and the UTC function.

How timely (pun intended) to speak of additional functions, I was going over my 10 year-old daughter's math homework with her today. She was surprised at how fast I was able to verify her calculations of the area of circles without a calculator. I was using the slide rule function on my Breitling Chronomat seen in the picture a page back. When I showed her how it worked she said she wanted to take it to school to show her teacher. Unfortunately, she burst my bubble when she later called one of her friends and said: "My dad was using an old fashioned watch calculator thingie, you know, like the ones grandparents used to cheat at school."

[PacNW2Ford]

Just a little outside...

Those IWC's look terrific, especially the ingenieurs.

But the various viewpoints in this thread reminded me of a funny story. I once worked for a very insecure person who drove a "Porsh" for all of the "wrong" reasons. One day I was making a self-deprecating joke about my computer skills and said "I don't even wear a watch!" Seeing how popular this was, she suddenly blurted out "I don't wear one on weekends!"

She was actually jealous of me having nothing. Unbelievable.