SRAM RED has been out for two weeks now

[Acotts]

Anyone have it equipped on their bikes yet?

Just wonderin'

[sspielman]

So that really wasn't an earthquake in Chile...It was the tremendous improvement in performance that shook the earth....

[Too Tall]

Gasp. You so right my man :)

[Flat Out]

Struck me as a little... "pricey". Especially since Record is only a few bucks more.

[Dave]

Most places charge more for SRAM Red than Campy Record. If the Record crank was upgraded to ceramic bearings, the price would be closer.

http://www.glorycycles.com/srredrogr.html

http://www.glorycycles.com/care20gr.html

http://txcyclesport.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=CA-REG-CC-8

[SWorks4me]

Struck me as a little... "pricey". Especially since Record is only a few bucks more.


why does Campy have to be the most expensive?

Save the history, nostalgia, name, euro, flames. I know all of that. I love Campy...but at some point, there will be competition. Red is a nice group. They did their homework with Force, listened to the pros who were riding it, and the amateurs, and immediately came out with improvements.

Give it shot, before just shooting it down based solely on price.

I'm just sayin.

[Grant McLean]

why does Campy have to be the most expensive?

Save the history, nostalgia, name, euro, flames. I know all of that. I love Campy...but at some point, there will be competition. Red is a nice group. They did their homework with Force, listened to the pros who were riding it, and the amateurs, and immediately came out with improvements.

Give it shot, before just shooting it down based solely on price.

I'm just sayin.

1 Euro = $1.47 USA

that's why Campy is expensive...
When parts are made in China, some people expect they will cost less.
Sram loves it that Campy prices set the bar high. If a Record group was
$900 in the USA, how much could they charge for RED?

just sayin'

-g

[stevep]

1 Euro = $1.47 USA

that's why Campy is expensive...
When parts are made in China, some people expect they will cost less.
Sram loves it that Campy prices set the bar high. If a Record group was
$900 in the USA, how much could they charge for RED?

just sayin'

-g

answer... $875.

[Big Dan]

Campy, China, China, Campy, China, China, Campy,Campy......


:rolleyes:

[Frank Draper]

Anyone have it equipped on their bikes yet?

Just wonderin'

It may be out for the major bike makers, Trek, Specialized, etc., however I don't believe that they have been released for individual purchase. I have a bike on hold because the company only puts SRAM FORCE on it. To get RED, I had to order the frame and have my LBS build it.

[Blue Jays]

I'm sure the new SRAM RED is very nice and one should feel very confident purchasing it. Love their triggers and rear X.0 derailleur on my Titus MotoLite II mountainbike. Friends have had good luck with their road kit.
I'm running Campagnolo Record...and one of these days I'll give something else a whirl on my roadbikes. ;)

[pdxmech13]

So that really wasn't an earthquake in Chile...It was the tremendous improvement in performance that shook the earth....


post of the year :beer:

[Flat Out]

why does Campy have to be the most expensive?

Save the history, nostalgia, name, euro, flames. I know all of that. I love Campy...but at some point, there will be competition. Red is a nice group. They did their homework with Force, listened to the pros who were riding it, and the amateurs, and immediately came out with improvements.

Give it shot, before just shooting it down based solely on price.

I'm just sayin.

I never said that it HAD to be. I think it's kind of a bold move on their part to price it that high right out of the gate, that's all. I have Force on one of my two bikes and actually like it better than Shimano stuff but I felt it had a ways to go to reach the level of the Record I have on my other bike. Maybe it is that good. We'll see.

[Climb01742]

I have Force on one of my two bikes and actually like it better than Shimano stuff

i have force on one bike vs DA on my others. force is swell (and the brifter ergonomics are the best yet for me) but where DA beats force hands down is shifting smoothness. i find force clunky on upshifts, ok on downshifts. DA is butter smooth. other than that, sram is an equal. if red solves the shifting smoothness, bye-bye DA for me. the hoods feel that good. but for now, DA still tops for me.

[Too Tall]

i have force on one bike vs DA on my others. force is swell (and the brifter ergonomics are the best yet for me) but where DA beats force hands down is shifting smoothness. i find force clunky on upshifts, ok on downshifts. DA is butter smooth. other than that, sram is an equal. if red solves the shifting smoothness, bye-bye DA for me. the hoods feel that good. but for now, DA still tops for me.
If I can quiet down the upshifts I'm REALLY happy as opposed to all giggles.
Feel the Force

[djg]

why does Campy have to be the most expensive?

Save the history, nostalgia, name, euro, flames. I know all of that. I love Campy...but at some point, there will be competition. Red is a nice group. They did their homework with Force, listened to the pros who were riding it, and the amateurs, and immediately came out with improvements.

Give it shot, before just shooting it down based solely on price.

I'm just sayin.

Well, as Grant pointed out, part of the current high US price of campagnolo is due to the exchange rate. But I'd say that the history and name ought to command a premium -- it's not that all campag stuff ever has been great, it's just that they've made lots of excellent bits for quite a long time and that track (and road) record is part of the brand. Charging extra for the brand is rational and so is paying extra. How much is another question of course, and you're fee to think that there's too much of a romance or nostalgia or me-too premium in there. At the same time, SRAM is pretty new to the road game and the red stuff is brand new and, even if they did their homework, and even if manufacturing costs were not lower, one might expect it to be less pricey. There are all sorts of pricing strategies and maybe this will pay off for them just fine, but that's why I'd expect record to cost a bit more here (apart from the question of pointless yet pricey ceramic bearings).

[SWorks4me]

Well, as Grant pointed out, part of the current high US price of campagnolo is due to the exchange rate. But I'd say that the history and name ought to command a premium -- it's not that all campag stuff ever has been great, it's just that they've made lots of excellent bits for quite a long time and that track (and road) record is part of the brand. Charging extra for the brand is rational and so is paying extra. How much is another question of course, and you're fee to think that there's too much of a romance or nostalgia or me-too premium in there. At the same time, SRAM is pretty new to the road game and the red stuff is brand new and, even if they did their homework, and even if manufacturing costs were not lower, one might expect it to be less pricey. There are all sorts of pricing strategies and maybe this will pay off for them just fine, but that's why I'd expect record to cost a bit more here (apart from the question of pointless yet pricey ceramic bearings).

I understand the economic reasons...What I was trying to convey was, just because a product isn't Campy, doesn't mean it can't be priced high. If Red is as good as it should be in the long run, then why not price it accordingly. I'm sure SRAM just didn't throw out a price...

We'll see.

[Too Tall]

It is not unreasonable to guess they intend to make a profit yah?

*This little piggy went to market...we paid some.

*Do I get points for pork reference today?

[nm87710]

FWI for anybody considering RED. 30+hrs on RED and here's my 2 cents.

Shifters: Faster/shorter shift throws than Force. Much faster and precise than DA10. Adjustability of lever reach allows a true custom fit for small hands. Ability to route both cables on inside of bars is a great ergonomic addition. Every shift has been spot on. 7+hours riding in rain/dirt and it still shifts perfectly without hesitation. Bottom line: W00t! Great cockpit stuff and well worth the upgrade for Force or DA10 users.

Brake calipers: Light, stiff and stong full function calipers. Ability to tune spring tension to individual feel is sweet. Great modulation compared to DA10. All the review/talk has been about the shifters but the calipers are fashizzle.

Derailleurs: Didn't notice any difference between Force and Red. Save some jack and just use Force.

Cassette: Wonderful work of engineering. Works fine without digging into freehub carrier as some suggested. Basically a nice one piece design so you don't have to keep track of a handful of cogs and spacers everytime the cassette is changed! At 168grams for an 11-26 it is perfect for big climbing/decending.

These items basically came in right on spec weight and in total ~280gr(10oz) lighter than DA10 components.

Durability??...stay tuned.

[DarrenCT]

FWI for anybody considering RED. 30+hrs on RED and here's my 2 cents.

Shifters: Faster/shorter shift throws than Force. Much faster and precise than DA10. Adjustability of lever reach allows a true custom fit for small hands. Ability to route both cables on inside of bars is a great ergonomic addition. Every shift has been spot on. 7+hours riding in rain/dirt and it still shifts perfectly without hesitation. Bottom line: W00t! Great cockpit stuff and well worth the upgrade for Force or DA10 users.

Brake calipers: Light, stiff and stong full function calipers. Ability to tune spring tension to individual feel is sweet. Great modulation compared to DA10. All the review/talk has been about the shifters but the calipers are fashizzle.

Derailleurs: Didn't notice any difference between Force and Red. Save some jack and just use Force.

Cassette: Wonderful work of engineering. Works fine without digging into freehub carrier as some suggested. Basically a nice one piece design so you don't have to keep track of a handful of cogs and spacers everytime the cassette is changed! At 168grams for an 11-26 it is perfect for big climbing/decending.

These items basically came in right on spec weight and in total ~280gr(10oz) lighter than DA10 components.

Durability??...stay tuned.


wowzaa!

sounds pretty good.

bad news for sram: im sticking with campy

[avalonracing]

Whatever the cost of producing a group (or frame, or wheels) may be the manufacturer has to hit a certain price point to give a perception of quality. If Sram could make the best group available and sell it for $500 no one would buy it.

The same goes true for any product of passion. If you make the most expensive item there will always be a market for it.
$300 saddles
$700 shoes
$3000 wheels
$12,000 bikes
Someone will always buy them. Now whether you can turn a profit selling them is another story.

[SoCalSteve]

FWI for anybody considering RED. 30+hrs on RED and here's my 2 cents.

Shifters: Faster/shorter shift throws than Force. Much faster and precise than DA10. Adjustability of lever reach allows a true custom fit for small hands. Ability to route both cables on inside of bars is a great ergonomic addition. Every shift has been spot on. 7+hours riding in rain/dirt and it still shifts perfectly without hesitation. Bottom line: W00t! Great cockpit stuff and well worth the upgrade for Force or DA10 users.

Brake calipers: Light, stiff and stong full function calipers. Ability to tune spring tension to individual feel is sweet. Great modulation compared to DA10. All the review/talk has been about the shifters but the calipers are fashizzle.

Derailleurs: Didn't notice any difference between Force and Red. Save some jack and just use Force.

Cassette: Wonderful work of engineering. Works fine without digging into freehub carrier as some suggested. Basically a nice one piece design so you don't have to keep track of a handful of cogs and spacers everytime the cassette is changed! At 168grams for an 11-26 it is perfect for big climbing/decending.

These items basically came in right on spec weight and in total ~280gr(10oz) lighter than DA10 components.

Durability??...stay tuned.

wowzaa!

sounds pretty good.

bad news for sram: im sticking with D/A 10

Just sayin'

Steve

[Bruce K]

I'm planning to replace my Force shifters and cassette on the Meivici with Red versions based on ride reports from the cyclocrossworld cross riders which seem to be the same as stated above.

As for durability they seem to be holding up well under the punishment of a cross season.

I may also change to Ottrott at some point to Red shifters and a Force group (while retaining the FSA cranks) but that wil wait until I have some miles on the Meivici after the change.

BK

[Climb01742]

nm87710,
thanks for the report. i'm psyched to give red a shot. i'm a DA fan but i think both shimano and campy could use some genuine competition to improve. before sram's road groups, i think they were happy to offer a vanilla or chocolate "choice", take it or leave it. good for sram to offer us a third, real choice.

[stevep]

this is a very deliberate price policy.
they wanted the group to cost as much or more than record in order to place it at the top of the parts heirarchy.
"costs more, must be better"

it has nothing to do with cost of manufacture or design.
campy is italian. euro
sram is taiwan. taiwan $$.

by currency standard/ manufacturing cost the stuff should cost 1/3 of record.
doesn't mean you shouldnt like it but this is a very deliberate product location by sram management.

[Climb01742]

this is a very deliberate price policy.
they wanted the group to cost as much or more than record in order to place it at the top of the parts heirarchy.
"costs more, must be better"

it has nothing to do with cost of manufacture or design.
campy is italian. euro
sram is taiwan. taiwan $$.

by currency standard/ manufacturing cost the stuff should cost 1/3 of record.
doesn't mean you shouldnt like it but this is a very deliberate product location by sram management.

you mean like meivici pricing? :D

[capybaras]

you mean like meivici pricing? :D

and tampons!

[stevep]

you mean like meivici pricing? :D

its definition by price.

i wont make a connection to our generous host here...

[Climb01742]

its definition by price.

i wont make a connection to our generous host here...

i meant no criticism. was re-enforcing your point. premium pricing is used to do three things: define the product as premium. attempt to convey that it's the best. and make a profit. none are wrong. buyers just have to decide for themselves whether points 1 and 2 are true.

[nm87710]

nm87710,
thanks for the report. i'm psyched to give red a shot. i'm a DA fan but i think both shimano and campy could use some genuine competition to improve. before sram's road groups, i think they were happy to offer a vanilla or chocolate "choice", take it or leave it. good for sram to offer us a third, real choice.

Yea, always nice to have options. Shimano and Campy = complacent. IMO, Campy should be concerned as the market for high end road groupos isn't growing. So SRAM's entry cuts the pie into smaller slices and Campy already started with a small slice :crap: Plus with Zipp, SRAM vaults ahead of both Shimano and Campy in high end wheel revenue too. Shimano engineers should be embarrassed - kinda like how Campy engineers 15+ years ago. :o Maybe DA-E will work, really, really well. :rolleyes:

Nothing like a little competition for motivation... :banana:

[Too Tall]

FWI for anybody considering RED. 30+hrs on RED and here's my 2 cents.

Shifters: Faster/shorter shift throws than Force. Much faster and precise than DA10. Adjustability of lever reach allows a true custom fit for small hands. Ability to route both cables on inside of bars is a great ergonomic addition. Every shift has been spot on. 7+hours riding in rain/dirt and it still shifts perfectly without hesitation. Bottom line: W00t! Great cockpit stuff and well worth the upgrade for Force or DA10 users.

Brake calipers: Light, stiff and stong full function calipers. Ability to tune spring tension to individual feel is sweet. Great modulation compared to DA10. All the review/talk has been about the shifters but the calipers are fashizzle.

Derailleurs: Didn't notice any difference between Force and Red. Save some jack and just use Force.

Cassette: Wonderful work of engineering. Works fine without digging into freehub carrier as some suggested. Basically a nice one piece design so you don't have to keep track of a handful of cogs and spacers everytime the cassette is changed! At 168grams for an 11-26 it is perfect for big climbing/decending.

These items basically came in right on spec weight and in total ~280gr(10oz) lighter than DA10 components.

Durability??...stay tuned.


Just a brief aside in recognition and humble fawning over NM87710's use of Websters word of the yr. "W00t". We are not worthy. ATMO watch your back ;)

http://machinist.salon.com/blog/2007/12/12/w00t/index.html

[stevep]

Plus with Zipp, SRAM vaults ahead of both Shimano and Campy in high end wheel revenue too. Shimano engineers should be embarrassed :

embarrassed? why?

zipp is not a significant player.
they are a tiny niche.
they will not be significant until sram moves production to taiwan or china and you see zipp wheels on 1,500 bikes or less.that'll be awhile.

it tool sram 10 yrs to come out with road stuff... despite the rapidly growing road enthusiast business. it took them 8 years to make a 10 spd chain fr gods sake.
( "why dont you guys offer a 10 spd chain?" query from stevep about 1996-7"
we dont have a machine that can make a 10 spd chain" reply from sram.

" buy one , you're a freakin chain company" reply by stevep )

they are a long way from owning a large piece of this market.

no slam but the way i see it.

[Acotts]

embarrassed? why?

zipp is not a significant player.
they are a tiny niche.
they will not be significant until sram moves production to taiwan or china and you see zipp wheels on 1,500 bikes or less.that'll be awhile.

it tool sram 10 yrs to come out with road stuff... despite the rapidly growing road enthusiast business. it took them 8 years to make a 10 spd chain fr gods sake.
( "why dont you guys offer a 10 spd chain?" query from stevep about 1996-7"
we dont have a machine that can make a 10 spd chain" reply from sram.

" buy one , you're a freakin chain company" reply by stevep )

they are a long way from owning a large piece of this market.

no slam but the way i see it.

You talk like Zipps are Liteweights. Is Zipp really considered a nich company?

Perhaps it is comming from Triathlon world, but I see zips on all the high-end bikes. Not to mention I am seeing lots of folks in the tri world using their cranks, and bars too. If you take into account all the companies that take Zipp rims and thow their own hubs and new decals, it would seem to me that they have the lions share of the deep dish carbon market.

On the other hand, perhaps i get this impression because I look at too much bike porn. Like a 12 year old who assumes 90% of all women are size zero with DD's becuase he has spent to much time on the interweb.

-A

[BdaGhisallo]

Yep, I agree with SteveP. Shimano have nothing to be embarrased about. They are a highly innovative and engineering-led company that makes high quality bicycle components. So many of the improvements to bike technology that we enjoy today versus a thirty year old bike are thanks to Shimano. They may not have invented the technology but, in many cases, they refined it and made it marketable and got it out to the masses.

Does anyone wish that Campy, for one, continued in the same vein they were in back in the mid-80s before Shimano really started kicking their butt and showed them the way to improve?

Shimano have NOTHING to be ashamed of!

Geoff

[Frank Draper]

FWI for anybody considering RED. 30+hrs on RED and here's my 2 cents.

Shifters: Faster/shorter shift throws than Force. Much faster and precise than DA10. Adjustability of lever reach allows a true custom fit for small hands. Ability to route both cables on inside of bars is a great ergonomic addition. Every shift has been spot on. 7+hours riding in rain/dirt and it still shifts perfectly without hesitation. Bottom line: W00t! Great cockpit stuff and well worth the upgrade for Force or DA10 users.

Brake calipers: Light, stiff and stong full function calipers. Ability to tune spring tension to individual feel is sweet. Great modulation compared to DA10. All the review/talk has been about the shifters but the calipers are fashizzle.

Derailleurs: Didn't notice any difference between Force and Red. Save some jack and just use Force.

Cassette: Wonderful work of engineering. Works fine without digging into freehub carrier as some suggested. Basically a nice one piece design so you don't have to keep track of a handful of cogs and spacers everytime the cassette is changed! At 168grams for an 11-26 it is perfect for big climbing/decending.

These items basically came in right on spec weight and in total ~280gr(10oz) lighter than DA10 components.

Durability??...stay tuned.

I've been riding with Campy Record for 10 years and after test riding the Sram Force a few months ago I decided if the upshifting is corrected via the SRAM RED then I was going to order my new bike with the RED. Well, based on nM87710's experience it seems that SRAM has smoothed out the small issues and will be a contender for the other two big names. I agree with nM8770, the shifting and ergonomics of the SRAM are the best that I have ridden. Shimano is smooth and quiet, but the SRAM are oh so fast and exact. My LBS told me that my bike should be delivered within the next week or two.

[coloclimber]

I am parting out my Record for a Force/Red combo. It's a sad day for all my Campy splined wheels.

[saab2000]

A grand new era of affordability is ahead of us for those of us who shop for used Record components on eBay! :banana:

[Brons2]

You talk like Zipps are Liteweights. Is Zipp really considered a nich company?

Yes.

Perhaps it is comming from Triathlon world

Yes.

, but I see zips on all the high-end bikes. Not to mention I am seeing lots of folks in the tri world using their cranks, and bars too. If you take into account all the companies that take Zipp rims and thow their own hubs and new decals, it would seem to me that they have the lions share of the deep dish carbon market.

The deep dish carbon market is a TINY market compared to the market for mid to high end machine built wheelsets overall. I'd say by far and away the most common boutique wheel I see is the Mavic Ksyrium. As for me I use hand-built wheels.

Go over to any of your local LBS's and ask them how many carbon wheelsets they sell in a year. I'd bet it's no more than a handful, whereas they probably sell a handful of Mavic something or another every day.

On the other hand, perhaps i get this impression because I look at too much bike porn.

Head on over to Rivbike.com and heal thyself.

[chrisroph]

sheesh the new price points have zoomed by me

'm running on a bunch of my bikes alloy square taper chorus cranks, chorus alloy shifters and brakes, and centaur drlrs

i have lots of wheels with centaur hubs

this stuff works great, plenty good enough to win flanders or tdf.

[Brons2]

sheesh the new price points have zoomed by me

'm running on a bunch of my bikes alloy square taper chorus cranks, chorus alloy shifters and brakes, and centaur drlrs

i have lots of wheels with centaur hubs

this stuff works great, plenty good enough to win flanders or tdf.

Right on. My main bike came with mostly Record stuff and I've been picking it off one by one. Not in favor of SRAM or Shimano, but in favor of Chorus, Centaur, even Veloce. I love the feature of the Veloce casettes with the individual gears, makes it much easier to clean. And if it cuts into my freehub, so what, I am 6'7" and 260 lbs and my wheels don't last that long anyways, most I've gotten out of a back wheel is maybe 10,000 miles.

[saab2000]

sheesh the new price points have zoomed by me

'm running on a bunch of my bikes alloy square taper chorus cranks, chorus alloy shifters and brakes, and centaur drlrs

i have lots of wheels with centaur hubs

this stuff works great, plenty good enough to win flanders or tdf.

You must be awfully slow with all that old stuff. Notice how the folks with UT cranks and carbon fiber water bottle bolts are soooo much faster......

Get another set of Nukes and get on with the job! :D

[deechee]

So I take it no one has actually tried SRAM RED? I would love to try that shifting while in the drops thing.

[Climb01742]

Shimano have NOTHING to be ashamed of!

not ashamed of but one area where shimano is falling behind, quite noticeably, i think is in hood shape and ergonomics. to get a flat ramp with shimano is a PIA, achievable with only a very few bars. versus sram or campy, where it's possible with many many bars. hood ergonomics, to me anyway, take on great importance simply because your hands are there a lot. small annoyances become big ones. sram has the hoods nailed. if red has the shifting improved, personally, i can't see any reason to ever buy shimano again, and this from a lifelong shimano user.

[chrisroph]

You must be awfully slow with all that old stuff. Notice how the folks with UT cranks and carbon fiber water bottle bolts are soooo much faster......

Get another set of Nukes and get on with the job! :D

always lookin' for more nucs. i was nuts to post a pair for sale. i'm glad you didn't buy them. i'll slip on a veloce cassette like brons2 (i've bought a bunch of those too, great deals and they work fab) some cx's and ride on.

shino found a pristine pair of nuc tubies dirt cheap. i glued up some cross challenge tubies for him and wanted to keep them. you just can't have too many nucs.

[SoCalSteve]

not ashamed of but one area where shimano is falling behind, quite noticeably, i think is in hood shape and ergonomics. to get a flat ramp with shimano is a PIA, achievable with only a very few bars. versus sram or campy, where it's possible with many many bars. hood ergonomics, to me anyway, take on great importance simply because your hands are there a lot. small annoyances become big ones. sram has the hoods nailed. if red has the shifting improved, personally, i can't see any reason to ever buy shimano again, and this from a lifelong shimano user.

No disrespect, but I have never found this to be a problem with D/A 10 brifters and all the bars I have used...Maybe its because I am 6' 5" and have really BIG hands...

Seems to be a non-issue with me even on really long rides. My hands are always comfortable.

I think it goes along with the: If its comfortable for you syndrome..Not better, not worse, just a personal choice. I cannot imagine changing over all my bikes from D/A 10 to SRAM Red.

I tried the high end models once at a bike race ( SRAM had a booth there) and found the shifting to be not as smooth, quiet, etc as D/A 10...

So funny, when the D/A 10 stuff came out, everyone said: They cannot improve on this! Its so amazing!!!

Marketing??? Or??

Just sayin' & askin'

Steve

[Climb01742]

No disrespect, but I have never found this to be a problem with D/A 10 brifters and all the bars I have used...Maybe its because I am 6' 5" and have really BIG hands...

Seems to be a non-issue with me even on really long rides. My hands are always comfortable.

I think it goes along with the: If its comfortable for you syndrome..Not better, not worse, just a personal choice. I cannot imagine changing over all my bikes from D/A 10 to SRAM Red.

I tried the high end models once at a bike race ( SRAM had a booth there) and found the shifting to be not as smooth, quiet, etc as D/A 10...

So funny, when the D/A 10 stuff came out, everyone said: They cannot improve on this! Its so amazing!!!

Marketing??? Or??

Just sayin' & askin'

Steve

agree, hand size has an impact. maybe it's just because i have the issue, but i have noticed quite a few posts over the past year about bars that enable you to get a flat ramp with DA. it's cool that you don't have an issue with it. lordy, i wish i didn't but my hands just don't quite fit well. with sram, it's ideal. and as i've said a number of times, i agree that DA shifts more smoothly than force. we'll see about red.

BTW, i hope the writer's strike ends soon for you...and everyone in tinseltown.

[DukeHorn]

OK, I'll bite on the Red should be 1/3 the cost of Record.

Just because Italy has 10% unemployment, crappy high tech, and a good bit of socialism whereas Taiwan has 4% unemployment, pretty good high tech industry and a decent entrepreneurial spirit, doesn't automatically mean that Record should command a 200% premium over Red.

Based on general QC/QA in the semiconductor and pharma industries, you wouldn't want to have any of those made in Italy but definitely in Taiwan.
The Taiwanese bike industry is pretty solid and I'd rather have parts made by folks that do work hard instead of by folks that take off the entire month of August and complain about 35 hour work weeks. (ok a little stereotyping but I find it humorous).

And I'll go ahead and offend the Chinese here by noting that Taiwan is not a part of China and those two economies should not be confused with each other.

[nm87710]

RE:Shimano

Shimana DA really hasn't changed in 15+ years. Small incremental changes but in my book no real innovation since STI. Phinney may have been the 1st to race on STI in '90 but I wasn't far behind and the overall difference between 1st gen STI and 7801 is small. Plus the DA weight penalty is now getting absurd. So yes IMO SRAM engineers are kicking Shimano's butt by developing a group 3/4lb lighter than DA, shifts faster, more comfortable ergonomics, more adjustability/customization of fit and better reliability(no way a DA10 drivetrain would work perfectly after 7 hours of rain/grime riding!). Now maybe Red will explode after 3 months of use but for now if I were in charge of rolling out new R&D into production at Shimano I'd be damn embarrased when comparing my results to SRAM's over the last 24months. Look, '08 Shimano road changes are Ultegra SL, Carbon DA cranks and for the 4th time trying at roll out wheels that people will actually buy(not OEM). I guess Shimano is betting on DA-E to be a game changer...time will tell and I'll be one of the first to use DA-E if it better meets my needs.

30 years ago I raced P12(well actually there was no P back then) and I'm still doing it today(at least trying). I ride ~14k miles a year and know the strengths and weakness of my equipment. What's interesting is my equipment requirements have not changed in 30+ years. I want Flawless Reliability, Light/Fast, Comfortable, Durable and Easy to Service/Replace. DA served me well for the last 16 years but Red is hands down better(LT reliability TBD) at basically the same cost. I think it cost me a total of ~$400 net to switch to Red after selling my used DA. Not much when you consider the cost to race/train for a season. Nothing against DA as it has served me well but IMO Red is notches above. FWIW, I tried Force for 2 months last season and went back to DA mid-season due to Force shifter shortcomings. So I'm not a SRAM-o-phile. I give SRAM engineers credit for reengineering the drivetrain and improving it from many angles AND in less than 12 months not only fixing the shortcomings of their 1stgen product but also adding significant improvements as well. It's not perfect but closer than DA.

just my 2 cents :crap:

Dogpile time? :banana:

[EDS]

I really think it all comes down to looks/image and ergonomics for almost everyone in terms of which group they like. They all shift more then good enough to make performance differential a non-factor.

[SoCalSteve]

agree, hand size has an impact. maybe it's just because i have the issue, but i have noticed quite a few posts over the past year about bars that enable you to get a flat ramp with DA. it's cool that you don't have an issue with it. lordy, i wish i didn't but my hands just don't quite fit well. with sram, it's ideal. and as i've said a number of times, i agree that DA shifts more smoothly than force. we'll see about red.

BTW, i hope the writer's strike ends soon for you...and everyone in tinseltown.

Thank you!

I hate being off work and NOt being able to spend $$$, really sucks!

Also, no one knows when this thing will end...so, besides being out of work, there is a bit of anxiety about WHEN we will go back to work. I also hate the idea of dipping into my savings.

Funny thing is, I am on the side of the writers and think the producers are just being greedy.

Just sayin'

Steve

[Climb01742]

Thank you!

I hate being off work and NOt being able to spend $$$, really sucks!

Also, no one knows when this thing will end...so, besides being out of work, there is a bit of anxiety about WHEN we will go back to work. I also hate the idea of dipping into my savings.

Funny thing is, I am on the side of the writers and think the producers are just being greedy.

Just sayin'

Steve

do you ever work shoots for commercials? they must be the only productions going in town.

[stevep]

OK, I'll bite on the Red should be 1/3 the cost of Record.

Just because Italy has 10% unemployment, crappy high tech, and a good bit of socialism whereas Taiwan has 4% unemployment, pretty good high tech industry and a decent entrepreneurial spirit, doesn't automatically mean that Record should command a 200% premium over Red.

Based on general QC/QA in the semiconductor and pharma industries, you wouldn't want to have any of those made in Italy but definitely in Taiwan.
The Taiwanese bike industry is pretty solid and I'd rather have parts made by folks that do work hard instead of by folks that take off the entire month of August and complain about 35 hour work weeks. (ok a little stereotyping but I find it humorous).

And I'll go ahead and offend the Chinese here by noting that Taiwan is not a part of China and those two economies should not be confused with each other.

im not sure the meaning of this.
you take that as a slam on taiwan?
its not.

i buy and sell and source stuff from both places.
the taiwanese stuff is largely better than most stuff out of europe.
it is, hovever, priced at a fraction of the cost.
you can draw any conclusion that you want from that but the production cost including engineering is a fraction of what the same cost in italy would be.

remember valentino has to maintain the estate on lake como.

for the 4th time trying at roll out wheels that people will actually buy(not OEM)....
for the record ... 90% of component sales in the bike industry are oe. zipp are all aftermarket. they are splitting a piece of the remaining 10% with shimano, campy, mavic, etc, etc, etc.

[stevep]

RE:Shimano
. Nothing against DA as it has served me well but IMO Red is notches above. FWIW, I tried Force for 2 months last season and went back to DA mid-season due to Force shifter shortcomings. So I'm not a SRAM-o-phile.
just my 2 cents :crap:

Dogpile time? :banana:

do you think you might want to test the reliability more than 2 months?

dont care. just curious.

[Pete Serotta]

Sram can be rebuilt :p :p :p :p

[nm87710]

do you think you might want to test the reliability more than 2 months?

don't care. just curious.

If it's designed or manufactured poorly I'll likely shake it out within 2 months/3Kmiles.

[jbay]

(no way a DA10 drivetrain would work perfectly after 7 hours of rain/grime riding!). Now maybe Red will explode after 3 months of use [...]
DA served me well for the last 16 years but Red is hands down better(LT reliability TBD) [...]
FWIW, I tried Force for 2 months last season and went back to DA mid-season due to Force shifter shortcomings. So I'm not a SRAM-o-phile. [...]


I'm cheap and I like shiny metal, so I tried the Rival shifters this summer. They only stayed on the bike for one ride though (although it was a long one).

Like Climb, I loved the shape of the hoods. They are by far and away the most comfortable brifters out there, according to my hands.

I think I could get used to the one lever doing everything metaphor, given enough time with them, although I certainly had a few moments when my fingers and brain became disconnected. I'm not sure I could handle having one bike with SRAM and others with STI/Ergo though!

However, the real kicker was that they only worked about 50% of the time that I had them. The rest of the time, the shift lever swung inwards, meeting no resistance. I found that if I tried the "sprinting position" - pulling the shift lever towards the bar and jiggling it around, that a pawl or whatever would click back into place and I could shift again.

That, and misgivings about the ease (or not) of changing a derailleur cable on the side of the road, persuaded me to return them.

As ever, YMMV.

-- John

[David Kirk]

FWIW I've got a few thousand miles on a Force group and I couldn't be more pleased.

Just yesterday I got a Red group in and I must say it's impressive. It's silly light and the finish is top shelf. Things like the derailluer pulleys are super smooth with no side play like so many others. The cassette makes everyone else's look silly and overly complicated. Cool stuff.

I personally don't have any issues with where stuff is made. Country of origin doesn't seem to matter much. Italy makes Ferraris and Fiats. It's about the design and execution. Take for instance bike frame lugs......... most all of the best lugs made come from Taiwan and some of the crappiest come from Italy.

I'm old enough to remember when Shimano got serious with it's stuff and the first DA indexed groups hit the streets. All the cool guys hung onto their poor shifting and non-braking Super-Record and said "never " and "you'll have to pry the Campy from my cold dead fingers" and stuff like that. Then one by one folks tried it and leave campy. Competition improved the breed. In retrospect Super Record sucked with a capital S but everyone used it. I think that Sram is showing that things can be lighter and more simple and for me , in the end, the lighter and more simple things are the more I like them.

Just sayin.

Dave

[Dekonick]

I like the cassette idea - looks simple.

[SoCalSteve]

do you ever work shoots for commercials? they must be the only productions going in town.

Feature production is also in full swing and if something doesnt break soon, I will be forced to look for work (something I havent had to do in a few years).

I still have lots of connections at Paramount (where I worked for 13 years) and I am sure they would employ me, if I asked....

I'm not at that point yet as the people I normally work for have some "things" in the works.

I am just waiting until after the first of the year to see how it all plays out...

In the meantime, lots of riding and playing with my new hobby: digital photography.

Thanks again for thinking about me.

Enough about me, lets get back to the SRAM vs Dura Ace vs Record wars!

Just sayin'

Steve

[DukeHorn]

Hey SteveP,

Yeah, I sort of read it as a slam on Taiwanese manufacturing, but I know where you're coming from now.

The interesting point that is raised is if the cost of production is that much lower for SRAM than for Campy, would it be better for SRAM to lower its RED price down to Ultegra (for example) and try to build market share that way.

I mean Microsoft is using Xbox as a loss leader to generate sales. SRAM could do the same thing (if the production costs are that much lower).

Or (and maybe an MBA can shed light on this) is the market just too small for that kind of price undercutting as opposed to the game console market?

[stevep]

If it's designed or manufactured poorly I'll likely shake it out within 2 months/3Kmiles.

i assign you the task of a report at 10k miles.

i would like to know how it works, seriously.

[EDS]

Hey SteveP,

Yeah, I sort of read it as a slam on Taiwanese manufacturing, but I know where you're coming from now.

The interesting point that is raised is if the cost of production is that much lower for SRAM than for Campy, would it be better for SRAM to lower its RED price down to Ultegra (for example) and try to build market share that way.

I mean Microsoft is using Xbox as a loss leader to generate sales. SRAM could do the same thing (if the production costs are that much lower).

Or (and maybe an MBA can shed light on this) is the market just too small for that kind of price undercutting as opposed to the game console market?

The market is smaller and SRAM doesn't have Microsoft's overall size such that it could afford to lose money on one of its newest product offerings. That said, Rival is a steal these days given that it is only a few grams heavier than Force and mechanically is the same.

[1centaur]

The Red price is actually a tremendous gamble. If it's not great, and I mean supreme, the legions of Campy and DA fans will ignore it, they'll slash the price but they won't be able to erase the memories of component buyers who will scoff that SRAM thought they were all that but were not. If the reviews come back, both in the mags and on the street, that SRAM Red is really ne plus ultra, they will create a belief in their engineering that will lead to profits on generations of products to come.

I have Rival on my trainer and DA on everything else (occasional lapses occur in my shifting on both systems as I rewire my brain), and I'm betting I would prefer Ultegra significantly to Rival. Shimano did a good job making its top groups similar except for weight, and SRAM may not have done that...yet. I'm betting they will, so today's Rival will be tomorrow's swap-out candidate. Tomorrow's Rival may be the big bargain.

[benb]

If they move the improvements in the shifting of the Red shifters over to the Force and hopefully Rival shifters I'll probably upgrade.. I don't really want to buy Red Shifters.

The Force shifters are already ridiculous at near $500 for a set.

I love my Rival but it definitely doesn't shift quite as nicely as Shimano. Nowhere near bad enough to cause me to switch back at a loss.. but noticeably not as good as Ultegra or D/A. They always work.. whoever had some that didn't work part of the time had defective shifters or something else wrong.

But if SRAM are jerks and don't add the mechanical changes to the Force & Rival shifters I may eventually buy Red ones.

As for reliability.. if you've killed Shimano shifters and disassembled them, and then looked at how ridiculously simple SRAM shifters are in comparison, and you have any mechanical aptitude, it gets really hard to believe SRAM shifters won't be as reliable if not more reliable. My Rival shifters feel exactly the same as the day I've bought them other then having to adjust for cable stretch.. and if they do somehow get gunked up I feel 100x more confident I'll be able to clean them out and relube them then I ever did with Shimanos stuff. To me the first time I had to try and spray anything into a Shimano shifter, whether it was degreaser, lube, or just compressed air.. I knew I was going to be buying a new shifter soon.

To keep some perspective on the costs of these parts and whether the high costs for the weight saving materials are worth it.. a Red shifter set saves a whopping 45g over Rival.

[nm87710]

i assign you the task of a report at 10k miles.

i would like to know how it works, seriously.

Sure. I'll update da forum hood with the good, bad and ugly of Red. FYI, I can report that DA9/10 drivetrains have a usefull training/racing life less than 10K. YMMV

[Big Dan]

Sure. I'll update da forum hood with the good, bad and ugly of Red. FYI, I can report that DA9/10 drivetrains have a usefull training/racing life less than 10K. YMMV

***?

:confused:

[Andreas]

snip
I ride ~14k miles a year and know the strengths and weakness of my equipment.
snip

FYI, I can report that DA9/10 drivetrains have a usefull training/racing life less than 10K. YMMV

So you are changing your group more than once a year :banana:

[nm87710]

Hey SteveP,

I mean Microsoft is using Xbox as a loss leader to generate sales. SRAM could do the same thing (if the production costs are that much lower).



Video game biz is nothing like the bike biz...
All video game console hardware(Wii, Xbox, PS3) is sold at a loss(big loss). Always been that way. The money is made on the attach rate of games and accessories to each console. It's called "tie ratio" in the industry. To break even on the console sale a manufacturer needs to sell ~8 games/accessories for EACH console sold. Anything above that is profit. Current tie ratio for xbox is ~14:1. Manufacturers allocate new high demand consules to retailers based on "tie ratio". So that's why you see soooooo many video game system "bundles" at retailers and very few solo console sales.

In the bike biz margin is made at the time of initial sale. SRAM must make a profit when they sell components since there is basically no opportunity to get follow up high margin sales once someone has their product. (note: if Hudz are a hit maybe shimano, campy and sram will enter that segment since it offers high margin add on sales with the opportunity each year to sell multiple sets of hoods -people are so vain- for each pair of brifters. Just imagine ltd edition '08 TDF, ToC, TdG, Giro, hoods.) Anyhow, consumers learned long, long ago via marketing hyperbole that price is correlated to quality(or at least perceived quality). The higher the price the higher the quality/exclusivity. SRAM will not lower Red's price although they may add more perceived quality, features or exclusivity to further differentiate their product from others. They're already doing that by sponsoring BIG name team and BIG name riders. Same basic biz plan Zipp followed years ago and they've only increased prices, features, exclusivity and functionality while expanding the product line.

just my 2 venture capitalist $ense

[merckx]

Sure. I'll update da forum hood with the good, bad and ugly of Red. FYI, I can report that DA9/10 drivetrains have a usefull training/racing life less than 10K. YMMV

I think that sounds about right. I would replace cassette, chain, chainrings, derailleur pulleys, bb bearings at a maximum of 10,000 miles.

[nm87710]

So you are changing your group more than once a year :banana:

For the past few years I'd start with a fresh DA10 drivetrain in Feb. for the core race season but by Aug/Sept it was pretty tired and worn(i.e. sluggish and more prone to miss a shift). I'd keep riding it till January since crisp accurate shifting isn't needed for winter miles. Don't get me wrong here as even in Sept DA10 would work ok - just not what I want for racing. FYI, I change cables and chain every 2 months and keep the drivetrain clean and lubed. And I've also replacing various worn components and in the end the only thing that brings back crisp fast good as new shifting is a new drivetrain(rear shifter, chain/rings, cassette, cables and rear derailleur). FYI, I once estimated that I put the rear shifter/derailleur set up through at least 120,000 shifts per year. Maybe that's why my mileage may vary.

[DarrenCT]

da 10 shifters never die. the cables do but not the shifters imo

[Simon Q]

Yep, I agree with SteveP. Shimano have nothing to be embarrased about. They are a highly innovative and engineering-led company that makes high quality bicycle components. So many of the improvements to bike technology that we enjoy today versus a thirty year old bike are thanks to Shimano. They may not have invented the technology but, in many cases, they refined it and made it marketable and got it out to the masses.

Does anyone wish that Campy, for one, continued in the same vein they were in back in the mid-80s before Shimano really started kicking their butt and showed them the way to improve?

Shimano have NOTHING to be ashamed of!

Geoff

At the risk of changing the thread, the thing that Shimano should be ashamed of is slavishly sticking with the the cables poking out of the STIs. It works and made sense when STIs were in their infancy but not nearly 20 years down the track. I just don't get it and clearly SRAM didn't either. Other than than that they definitely have nothing to be ashamed of, they have had some great innovations.

[stevep]

They're already doing that by sponsoring BIG name team and BIG name riders.

just to be clear shimano and campagnolo has supported every major team and every major rider for the last untold many years. i wont quibble over who has sponsored more or fewer.
sram is new altogether to this side of the business ( and business it is ).

the high price of the sram is related to market position. nothing to do with development/ manufacturing cost. they want it to stand out.


10k miles for a drivetrain?
whats a drivetrain? you include shifters? derailleurs? a lot of people use them for a lot longer than that. im not sure what you are finding but i have never heard that complaint.

[Big Dan]

Crap, is going to be an expensive and busy off season tossing my 6 pairs of STI's with over 10K............


:eek:

[SoCalSteve]

Crap, is going to be an expensive and busy off season tossing my 6 pairs of STI's with over 10K............


:eek:

Gets it!

[Brons2]

No disrespect, but I have never found this to be a problem with D/A 10 brifters and all the bars I have used...Maybe its because I am 6' 5" and have really BIG hands...

Seems to be a non-issue with me even on really long rides. My hands are always comfortable.

I think it goes along with the: If its comfortable for you syndrome..Not better, not worse, just a personal choice. I cannot imagine changing over all my bikes from D/A 10 to SRAM Red.

I tried the high end models once at a bike race ( SRAM had a booth there) and found the shifting to be not as smooth, quiet, etc as D/A 10...

So funny, when the D/A 10 stuff came out, everyone said: They cannot improve on this! Its so amazing!!!

Marketing??? Or??

Just sayin' & askin'

Steve

sorry, but, the previous poster is correct. it is not easy to get a flat ramp with Shimano, period. now if you like the shape of their hoods that's another subject, but it is still not easy to get a flat ramp, if that is your goal.

oh and I am 6'7" with big hands and I hate the shape of the Shimano hoods.

[Brons2]

I want Flawless Reliability,

Flawless reliability? With 10 speed gear?

I dunno, I mean, I'm a randonneur, not a racer, but I don't see that many rando guys running 10 speed stuff at all. I guess in the racing world it's different, but in a discipline where the ultimate goal is a 1200KM, 4 day unsupported ride in all sorts of conditions, I don't know if 10 speed is where you want to be if reliability is the ultimate goal.

Just think about it. What if you had no access to even chain lube for 4 days straight of hard riding. What would be your equipment choices then?

My $0.02

[vaxn8r]

sorry, but, the previous poster is correct. it is not easy to get a flat ramp with Shimano, period. now if you like the shape of their hoods that's another subject, but it is still not easy to get a flat ramp, if that is your goal.

oh and I am 6'7" with big hands and I hate the shape of the Shimano hoods.
I like anatomic Deda 215's...those antiquated AL bars. Those give a perfectly flat ramp for both DA and Record hoods. With the non-anatomic 215's you can't get a flat ramp with either.

I don't get the hood comfort thing. I've ridden SRAM and I own Campy and Shimano and they are different but none of them suck. The last uncomfortable hoods I used were those classic Record hoods back inthe early 80's. I don't think you were supposed to use those hoods all that much because your hands got cramped real bad after a while.

[MadRocketSci]

interested in SRAM here....i know that shimano hoods extend more than campy by about 1 cm, wondering if the same difference exists between campy and SRAM? if I switched groups would it require a stem change?

thanks...

[Brons2]

I like anatomic Deda 215's...those antiquated AL bars. Those give a perfectly flat ramp for both DA and Record hoods. With the non-anatomic 215's you can't get a flat ramp with either.

I don't get the hood comfort thing. I've ridden SRAM and I own Campy and Shimano and they are different but none of them suck. The last uncomfortable hoods I used were those classic Record hoods back inthe early 80's. I don't think you were supposed to use those hoods all that much because your hands got cramped real bad after a while.

I like the Deda 215's also and I have a set that I rode a lot of miles on but I took them off and went with something wider...Deda measures their bars from the outside rather than C-C so even the 46cm's are not a true 46. I switched them out in favor of other bars that are 46cm C-C. It's really improved my shoulder, neck and arm pain that I used to get.

[soulspinner]

interested in SRAM here....i know that shimano hoods extend more than campy by about 1 cm, wondering if the same difference exists between campy and SRAM? if I switched groups would it require a stem change?

thanks...

I too am interested. I noticed it when I rode a bike with a longer tt than mine.

[jimcav]

Flawless reliability? With 10 speed gear?

I dunno, I mean, I'm a randonneur,...Just think about it. What if you had no access to even chain lube for 4 days straight of hard riding. What would be your equipment choices then?

My $0.02

RECORD 8 was the best i have used in terms of never mess with it reliability and still enough options for any terrain i did.

but it weighs more if that is a concern.

jim

[SoCalSteve]

sorry, but, the previous poster is correct. it is not easy to get a flat ramp with Shimano, period. now if you like the shape of their hoods that's another subject, but it is still not easy to get a flat ramp, if that is your goal.

oh and I am 6'7" with big hands and I hate the shape of the Shimano hoods.

Like I've always said...gloves, shoes, pedals, shorts, saddles and now brifters are all such a personal choice....everyone has different needs and expectations (Oh, and we are all shaped differently as well).

Just sayin' (there is no right or wrong),

Steve

[Blue Jays]

Any new reports about SRAM RED from the field? Interested and curious to hear! :beer:

[Bruce K]

Yup, I promised a report so here goes...

Last weekend I spent 3 nice riding days in Austin, TX riding with Alexis and weisan, logging rides of 54 and 39 miles on the Meivici with Red. The third day I rode weisan's Hors and let him try the Meivici (and no weisan, I still won't let you store it until I come back to TX next year!).

Having spent last season on Force with this bike, I can say that the shifting of the Red group is quicker, and the effort to go "up" a gear takes less push. I was surprised to find that for the rear shifting you can now get 1, 2, or 3 gears at a time vs. only 1 or 2 for Force.

The Power Dome cassette shifted very smoothly and there were no unusual noises.

Towards the end of the weekend I did experience some cable stretch issues but they have been eliminated with changes in the barrel adjuster.

I liked the Red enough that I have decided to purchase some lightly used Red shifters, rear derailleur, and cassette from the cyclocrossworld.com sell-off to change my Ottrott over for the coming season and will either keep the Force bits as spares for my cross bike or sell them off.

BK

[nm87710]

Now 3mo/5K miles on Red and it works great. Not a Campy kinda guy but compared to DA10 it's a better racing groupo(faster shifting, lighter, works better in rain, etc.)

[rePhil]

Now 3mo/5K miles on Red and it works great. Not a Campy kinda guy but compared to DA10 it's a better racing groupo(faster shifting, lighter, works better in rain, etc.)


Not trying to start an arguement..really, but how do you measure the difference in shifting speed? I'm a Campy guy, and perhaps because I no longer race I can't imagine the need for shifts quicker than current Campy.I mean I push and it shifts, no measurable delay.

Works better in the rain? How? Does your D/A perform differently in the rain and change back to a better performer in the dry? Or does it get better only after some maintenance? Is it the brakes?

I get the lighter part.

[Bruce K]

As far as faster shifting, the Red seems to require less input/motion than either Force or D-A, at least that's my impression as well.

Lighter than either for sure.

Having spent a day in fog/mist, I'm not sure what the differences are in the rain unless it's braking that he's talking about. I'm running Zero Gravitys so I can't speak for differences in stopping power.

BK

[rePhil]

[QUOTE=Bruce K]As far as faster shifting, the Red seems to require less input/motion than either Force or D-A, at least that's my impression as well.

Lighter than either for sure.

Having spent a day in fog/mist, I'm not sure what the differences are in the rain unless it's braking that he's talking about. I'm running Zero Gravitys so I can't speak for differences in stopping power.

BK[/QUOT

So Red has shorter throws? In my mind compared to Campy shorter throws might make downshifts a millesecond faster but not upshifts.
Thats not enough to justify switching in my book.

My bottom line is we like what we like, that's what cool about having choices.

[nm87710]

Not trying to start an arguement..really, but how do you measure the difference in shifting speed? I'm a Campy guy, and perhaps because I no longer race I can't imagine the need for shifts quicker than current Campy.I mean I push and it shifts, no measurable delay.

Works better in the rain? How? Does your D/A perform differently in the rain and change back to a better performer in the dry? Or does it get better only after some maintenance? Is it the brakes?

I get the lighter part.

Consumer Reports is doing a complete comparision test of Red/Record/DA10 in the May "Sports" issue for those wanting independent unbiased reviews ;)

[rePhil]

Aww, c'mon nm, you were the one who wrote "works better in rain, etc, is a better racing group than D/A"
I asked what you meant and now I have to wait for the May issue? Not fair:)
So how is it better in the rain? Biased or unbiased I would like to hear what you have to say.

[nm87710]

Aww, c'mon nm, you were the one who wrote "works better in rain, etc, is a better racing group than D/A"
I asked what you meant and now I have to wait for the May issue? Not fair:)
So how is it better in the rain? Biased or unbiased I would like to hear what you have to say.

Long(2-4hrs) rain rides n=6. Shifts perfectly at beginning and end. Only post ride maintenance has been washing off bike.

Faster shifting. It's just something you have to experience and then you know it's better. banana: Prolly only matters(I'm talking about the faster shifting) to us knuckleheads diving into that final corner at 60kph pushing 1500w shifting into 53x11 or some similar action.

[rePhil]

Thanks for the clarification.I no longer dive into corners at 60k, and the only rain rides these days are on my commutes. Chorus still works for me.
David Kirks description of the crankset install sounds interesting. Sounds like they got a lot of stuff right.

[nm87710]

FWIW - 6months/8k mile update. Red mini-groupo(brifters, brakes, FD/RD, chain and cassette) running well with shifting still smooth/fast. RD/FD running as orig. set up(i.e. no adjustments needed). Only issue is with 1090R chain which needs more frequent lubrication(every 150-200 miles) or it starts to chirp.

Don't think I could ever go back to DA10...

[nm87710]

10month/~13k mile Red update.

At 10K miles as a precaution I decided to replaced RD cable(it wasn't worn though) with std teflon cable and shifting isn't quite as smooth/fast as the oem gore-tex lined cables. Also took apart and re-lubed shifter mechanisms as they needed it around 11k. Shifting is still fine - just not quite as crsip(FYI, I'm very, very picky about equipment working perfectly each and every time). All in all pretty damn impresive drivetrain results for 10K miles since I never had to re-adjust the derailleures or clean the cables/housing(even with 1000+ rain miles). Changed to DA10 chains and didn't notice any difference except I bent the FD when a outer chain plate opened up and caught on the very thin section of the FD outer cage(partly my fault for putting chain pin in front but damn the FD cage is thin if it can catch on a gap less than 1mm). On long rides(4-8hrs) my hands do get tired of the brifter shape which is a bit too wide/thick at the base of my palms plus the industrial spring tension to move the shifters is tiring when doing it 500+ times a day(maybe I'm just old with arthritis?). Also, I've decided the brfiters aren't very comfortable when standing to climb for more than a few minutes.

All in all Red has met my expectations and holds up quite well with less maintenance than DA10 for the same mileage and I'd recommend it based on durability.

As I only ride a groupo for one season I'll soon decide what to ride for '09. Red is certainly a worthy pick yet my hands aren't excited to do long rides with it. DA7900, too early to tell but lookds promising although pricey(thanks SRAM). DA7800 is clearly the best value on the market today(brifters 250 new!) plus my hands like the brifter shape eventhough the drivetrain requires more maintenance.

Decisions. Decisions... :banana:

[brians647]

Good update and good info. Thanks for sharing!

[nohappen]

If I can quiet down the upshifts I'm REALLY happy as opposed to all giggles.
Feel the Force.

[Acotts]

awesome review.