Why did my tubular tires roll off?

[erikbrooks]

I tried tubular tires for the first time in a cross race on Saturday. I’d never ridden or glued them, nor watched anyone else glue them. I did find multiple descriptions of the procedure – park tools even has clear photos of the procedure, and so I thought I’d just have a go at it.

During lap 2 of my 6 lap race, 20% of the front tubbie rolled off as I started a corner, and I went down. Luckily the train of 5 riders behind me didn’t stack up – beats me how they did it. I said a few words suitable for the occasion, and found I could push it back onto the rim and ride gently half a lap to the pits, where I got another wheel (with a clincher). During my final lap I rolled the second one while accelerating hard from low speed on pavement.

Obviously there was a flaw in my application. I’m puzzled what it was.

I started with brand new Challenge Grifo 30mm tires. The wheels I got off eBay. I wanted to try these for low money, so I bought some old wheels with low miles. They look solid, spin true, and the spoke tension feels good to my hands. I cleaned the old glue off the rims with a plastic tool, followed by some new steel wool. The rim beds looked fresh, dry, and grease free.

I added about 30 PSI to the tires, then stretched the tires onto the rims and left them for a day or two
I applied a layer of Vittoria mastic 1 glue to rims and tires. For a brush, I used an old toothbrush. If I recall correctly, I waited 24 hours, then repeated.

Then I decided to try putting my cassette onto the rear wheel. To my dismay, my 8 speed cassette was too wide. I contemplated leaving out one of the two separate cogs. Eventually I did exactly that, and the bike shifted fine with it. But the first time I learned the hub was 7 speed, it took some wind outa my sails, and I set the project aside for about 2 weeks. During that time the wheels and tires were stored outside – dry, with temps hovering around 50F.

When I got back to it, I brought all the parts inside and let them come to room temps for a day or so. I inspected and saw that all parts still looked clean. I also dry-assembled them, and let them stretch again, as they seems tight again. Then, I put one more coat onto both tire and rim, and waited till they seemed tacky. Then I put one last coat on, and assembled it all. I centered them as best I could. I was doing this in my kitchen as a have a rather small house. The glue has a bit of an odor, so when I was satisfied, I pumped the tires up to about 75psi, rechecked for centering, and set them outside to cure. Again, this was in a space that is sheltered from rain, and temps around 50F.

Then I waited several days and inspected again. To my untrained eye, there were no problems. I’ve heard since that you should at this time use your hands to try to take them off, and if you succeed, you’ve failed, so to speak. Instead I took them to a park and rode around for a while, but I didn’t push them in corners.

A couple more days elapsed, and then the race described above.

After I returned, I pulled them completely off, which was pretty easy. I’ve started cleaning dirt and pine needles out of the rim and tire. I plan to buy a wire brush on the way home and clean it as best I can, and then have another go at it.

What should I do differently this time? Two changes for sure – no two week delay in the middle of the procedure, and I’ll try to rip them off before I ride them again. Anything else?

Thanks for ideas. I have one myself, but I'd like to see if you Sherlocks come up with the same one.

[brians647]

Just a guess, but even though it was dry during the parts stay outside, the exposure to moisture and dust must've killed (weakend) the glue. At least that's my guess. I think you have it right when you say that you won't insert a two week break into the procedure!

How'd I do? Do you agree?

[flux]

*Did you drive to the race in the rain with your bike a roof rack?

[djg]

It could be any number of things. Assuming that the base tape was clean and well prepped, I'd ask whether you made sure to get a good coat from edge to edge on the rim -- it's fine for the coats to be thin (better really, IMO), but you need several coats and they really need to go from edge to edge as that's where the stress goes and a nice glue job in the center of the rim and tire just won't cut it.

It's also possible that the rim and tire are a bad match, although I don't know what you used and whether it's suitable -- some rim profiles just aren't as well suited to some tires and if you post the particular rim it might be that somebody more knowledgeable will have an opinion about the match up.

[Too Tall]

Do I understand correctly that after you'd applied glue to both rim and tyre...letting both dry you mounted the tyre (with glue) to the rim (wiht glue) to "stretch" again than removed it for more glue?

I vote for poor glue bed. Probably too thick initial coat and possibly contaminated.

Do a search on Zank's descritption of how to glue for cross end of story that's the bidness.

If all else fails snap some pics let's see the rim bed and tyre to get an idea of what you are working with.

VERY sorry to hear about your problems. You'll get it right boss, guys and gals have been doing this for ages.

[mister]

try it again after reading this.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=401938&postcount=30

[erikbrooks]

Too Tall,
Yes, I did mount the tire again to stretch it, with dry-feeling glue on both rims and tires. Both tires were a bit hard to get on. A day later, they came off easily, and the glue looked and felt the same to me. Would you expect them to bond in this case?

As to carrying the tires on the roof in the rain - I've now heard a story of a teammate that rolled two tires early in the season after a two hour drive in the rain - but my drive and race were dry.

Like Brian think,s my guess is with the temperatures where the tires sat when they cured. A shop guy tells me that they always cure in the shop, and usually in September or so, at least for cross. I've looked back at the sources I was following, and I haven't noticed instructions about curing temps. Maybe it's just considered obvious? Or maybe I'm on the wrong track.

[mister]

wait, so did you mount the tire when the glue was fully cured?
you need a tack coat prior to mounting, that will activate your cured coats of glue.

[Your_Friend!]

I bought some old wheels with low miles. They look solid, spin true, and the spoke tension feels good to my hands. I cleaned the old glue off the rims with a plastic tool, followed by some new steel wool. The rim beds looked fresh, dry, and grease free.




Erikbrooks!


How Thoroughly

Did You _Deal_

With The Old Glue?




Love,
Y_F!

[mister]

Erikbrooks!


How Thoroughly

Did You _Deal_

With The Old Glue?




Love,
Y_F!


i've never really bothered cleaning old mastik1 off...but that red stuff...that has the consistency of clay or something. that doesn't hold very well.

[Your_Friend!]

i've never really bothered cleaning old mastik1 off...but that red stuff...that has the consistency of clay or something. that doesn't hold very well.


Mister!


Of_Course!

If It Is Recent!

But _Old_ And

Dessicated Glue

Creates A _Weak_ Bond!



Love,
Y_F!

[Fixed]

try again
imho

[ButtedMoron]

and if there is red stuff on the rim, is that that non cycling glue adhesive that many folks just love? something -Tac?

I've never rolled a tire, had my gluings last 3 seasons (purely as a test) using a combo of mastik glue and mastik tape. after 3 years it still gave me blisters removing my tires

[chrisroph]

red stuff is the old clement cement

sounds like your procedures were good, could be temp or contaminant related.

[ClutchCargo]

[QUOTE=Too Tall]Do I understand correctly that ...

Do a search on Zank's descritption of how to glue for cross end of story that's the bidness.

QUOTE]

[Too Tall]

Too Tall,
Yes, I did mount the tire again to stretch it, with dry-feeling glue on both rims and tires. Both tires were a bit hard to get on. A day later, they came off easily, and the glue looked and felt the same to me. Would you expect them to bond in this case?

As to carrying the tires on the roof in the rain - I've now heard a story of a teammate that rolled two tires early in the season after a two hour drive in the rain - but my drive and race were dry.

Like Brian think,s my guess is with the temperatures where the tires sat when they cured. A shop guy tells me that they always cure in the shop, and usually in September or so, at least for cross. I've looked back at the sources I was following, and I haven't noticed instructions about curing temps. Maybe it's just considered obvious? Or maybe I'm on the wrong track.

Got it. Now I understand. Couple things. You comprimised the bond by puting dry against dry glue than removing the tyre however I think a big prob. is the red glue...that stuff is NOT appropriate for what you are doing and contaminates everything :( You need to deal with that first. Get all of it off the rims....nothing you can do about the tyres sorry. Don't let solvents get in the same zipcode as the tyres pls.

[redir]

You did not follow the procedure to a tee because you remounted the tires and let them sit. Having said that I believe that that procedure works for road tires which you actually want to be able to remove in case of a flat. Cross tires apply much more twisting force to roll off a tire. I would but two base layers on the tire tape if it is brand new and two on the rim, let sit over night then apply one coat each to tire and rim then let sit for ten minutes. Apply one more coat to rim and mount. I've been using this procedure for cross for years and never had a problem except when I crashed and that would have probably rolled a clincher.

I don't think the weather had anything to do with it in your case. You also really need to make sure that when you apply glue you apply it on the edge of the rim and all over the base tape. The first point of failure in a roll off is the edge. Don't use a toothbrush but rather a plumbers flux brush which you can get at a hardware store. This will paint the glue on nicely. Once mounted and pumped up it's good to see a little squeeze out - a very little too much is not good. But if the glue joint is dry that's bad. When aligning you should see the glue form stringy texture when pulling the tire from the rim.

Mastik one imo is the very best choice. Combine that with tape and you will need to cut the tire off. In fact just last night I wanted to remount my tire since there was a little hop in it from poor alignment mind you it was slight but the kind of thing that drives me nuts. I tried for 30 minutes to remove this tire and I gave up. It's going to have to stay on there till It wears out and I cut it off. This tire has tape and glue so you may want to opt for that.

[mister]

i wear latex gloves and just use my finger to spread a few thin even coats of glue on the rim. quick and easy.

[Too Tall]

i wear latex gloves and just use my finger to spread a few thin even coats of glue on the rim. quick and easy.
You must work quick. Laytex will dissolve and stick to glue...use polyethlyene baggie.

[Viper]

Why even use tubbies? "I tried tubular tires for the first time in a cross race on Saturday. I’d never ridden or glued them, nor watched anyone else glue them."

Not the best time to experiment, in a race? Clinchers replaced tubbies, it'd be like me going back to non-synthetic oil in my car.

I respect the tradition of tubulars, but modern technology replaced them. Is there a specific advantage you were or are seeking through the use of tubulars?

[chrisroph]

Why even use tubbies? "I tried tubular tires for the first time in a cross race on Saturday. I’d never ridden or glued them, nor watched anyone else glue them."

Not the best time to experiment, in a race? Clinchers replaced tubbies, it'd be like me going back to non-synthetic oil in my car.

I respect the tradition of tubulars, but modern technology replaced them. Is there a specific advantage you were or are seeking through the use of tubulars?

oh my.....

[Viper]

oh my.....

They're fair questions and thoughts. :) Looking at the macro of it, not the micro (glue).

[J.Greene]

Is there a specific advantage you were or are seeking through the use of tubulars?

Lower pressure and fewer pinch flats.

Easier to ride back to pit if a tire goes.

Maybe stronger rims(a little dubious these days).

JG

[Viper]

Lower pressure and fewer pinch flats.

Easier to ride back to pit if a tire goes.

Maybe stronger rims(a little dubious these days).

JG

True. And it's a good debate, not unlike the universal 'Campy vs Shimano' (LOL) but I always ask, are the above benefits outweighed by the potential negatives?

(plus are clinchers more 'green'). :D

I respect tubulars and those who use them. Just not my cup of Earl Grey tea.

[redir]

Why even use tubbies? "I tried tubular tires for the first time in a cross race on Saturday. I’d never ridden or glued them, nor watched anyone else glue them."

Not the best time to experiment, in a race? Clinchers replaced tubbies, it'd be like me going back to non-synthetic oil in my car.

I respect the tradition of tubulars, but modern technology replaced them. Is there a specific advantage you were or are seeking through the use of tubulars?

There is a tremendous advantage to using tubulars in cross. I was once sceptical too and after trying them I'd never go back to clinchers. The cornering is superior as is the pinch flat resistance. Bumps are smoothed out like butter.

[J.Greene]

True. And it's a good debate, not unlike the universal 'Campy vs Shimano' (LOL) but I always ask, are the above benefits outweighed by the potential negatives?

(plus are clinchers more 'green'). :D

I respect tubulars and those who use them. Just not my cup of Earl Grey tea.

What negatives?

I have not yet raced cross on tubs so we are really in the same boat. But I'll have a set ready to go for the next race.

JG

[chrisroph]

viper-

tubies are voo doo for some but for the reasons stated above there is really no question that they are superior for cross. in addition to the ride, strength and weight issues, i seem to puncture cross clinchers just about every time i ride them.

newer is not necessarily better, think tubes vs solid state and vinyl vs digital.

[Viper]

viper-

tubies are voo doo for some but for the reasons stated above there is really no question that they are superior for cross. in addition to the ride, strength and weight issues, i seem to puncture cross clinchers just about every time i ride them.

newer is not necessarily better, think tubes vs solid state and vinyl vs digital.

I hear you. My knees and shoulder abuse keeps me away from the mud/dirt, I roll on the blacktop nowadays.

Hey, I never owned one, but I saw them in cars growing up and from time to time in homes. I *think* E-Richie still rolls with 8 Track FTW, no iPod. Was red version for the hippies and the white for the sci-fi geeks? And E-Richie's fav 8 track tunes:

[djg]

Why even use tubbies? "I tried tubular tires for the first time in a cross race on Saturday. I’d never ridden or glued them, nor watched anyone else glue them."

Not the best time to experiment, in a race? Clinchers replaced tubbies, it'd be like me going back to non-synthetic oil in my car.

I respect the tradition of tubulars, but modern technology replaced them. Is there a specific advantage you were or are seeking through the use of tubulars?

Whatever you might think of this argument for the road, it seems to me much, much weaker for cross. For starters, even as one who prefers good quality tubular tires, I have to recognize that there is a good selection of high quality road clinchers on the market now. The selection of high quality cross clinchers -- if you can call it that -- is not comparable. Second, not unrelated, you simply cannot find functional analogs in the clincher offerings for cross purposes that are just not all that unusual -- there's the issue of diminished tread choice for one and, as far as I know, the fact that you simply cannot run a clincher at the pressure you might prefer for a rough or muddy cross course without running a serious risk of a pinch flat or a rolled tire. Can a strong and skilled rider manage at something less than his or her limit? Sure. Can one botch a glue job -- sure, we have a post to that effect here, but we also have folks who know how to glue tires and do not roll them. Has technology made tubular cross tires all but obsolete? Well, maybe the technology is out there and maybe it isn't, but it seems to me that the market just isn't providing comparable options.

[mister]

You must work quick. Laytex will dissolve and stick to glue...use polyethlyene baggie.

oh sorry, i think they are actually nitrile or something...i forget exactly, they don't dissolve though.
http://www.professionalequipment.com/kleenguard-g10-disposable-blue-nitrile-gloves-large-box-of-100-57373/disposable-nitrile-gloves/

[Viper]

Whatever you might think of this argument for the road, it seems to me much, much weaker for cross. For starters, even as one who prefers good quality tubular tires, I have to recognize that there is a good selection of high quality road clinchers on the market now. The selection of high quality cross clinchers -- if you can call it that -- is not comparable. Second, not unrelated, you simply cannot find functional analogs in the clincher offerings for cross purposes that are just not all that unusual -- there's the issue of diminished tread choice for one and, as far as I know, the fact that you simply cannot run a clincher at the pressure you might prefer for a rough or muddy cross course without running a serious risk of a pinch flat or a rolled tire. Can a strong and skilled rider manage at something less than his or her limit? Sure. Can one botch a glue job -- sure, we have a post to that effect here, but we also have folks who know how to glue tires and do not roll them. Has technology made tubular cross tires all but obsolete? Well, maybe the technology is out there and maybe it isn't, but it seems to me that the market just isn't providing comparable options.

Big fan of tradition I am. I hope tubulars never go away, the way of the 8 track and I have toyed with the idea of using them on the road.

[Too Tall]

Big fan of tradition I am. I hope tubulars never go away, the way of the 8 track and I have toyed with the idea of using them on the road.
Full disclosure....I drive a 1951 and 1966 car both running old dinosaurs thru their veins...change is bad ;)

[ButtedMoron]

lower pressure with no pinch flats
lower pressure means better traction
more supple sidewall cases make tire mold to surface = better traction
did I say No Pinch Flats?
nothing worse than leading a freaking race and getting passed on the last lap cause you pinch flatted your front clincher 100 yds past the pit
more supple sidewalls help in bump absorption
did we mention no pinch flats even when your pressure is so low you feel your tire bottoming out on the rim?

racing cx with tubs vs racing cx with clinchers
is akin to
having sex bareback vs having sex with a condom

voodoo?

gluing cx tubs to the cx racer is like tying flies to the flyfisherman
or the cooking of your next fix

"where is the ritual, and tell me where is the taste"

[mister]

except you can't really make babies from rolling a tub.

[manet]

answer honestly... did you glue clinchers on by accident ?!

[shinomaster]

racing cx with tubs vs racing cx with clinchers
is akin to
having sex bareback vs having sex with a condom


I just can't wait to race this weekend!

[zank]

Big fan of tradition I am. I hope tubulars never go away, the way of the 8 track and I have toyed with the idea of using them on the road.

Cross tubulars will never go away. No need to worry. They are the fastest way to roll around a cross course. But the guy with better legs on Mud 2s will still beat you, as I continue to experience week in and week out.

[shinomaster]

Cross tubulars will never go away. No need to worry. They are the fastest way to roll around a cross course. But the guy with better legs on Mud 2s will still beat you, as I continue to experience week in and week out.


Doesn't that just suck?

[zank]

Not really. It just means I have to train harder, get faster and sacrifice a little bit more.

[shinomaster]

Not really. It just means I have to train harder, get faster and sacrifice a little bit more.

But you weigh 155lbs? That its pretty skinny. Last year I got beat by a guy riding his commuter poprad with a rack on it.:(
I just rode on tubulars for the first time today and I can't believe it! It's like rolling around on balloons!
Are you getting psyched for Portland? If we get a lot of rain that course will be one big mug bog you have to run.

[e-RICHIE]

Not really. It just means I have to train harder, get faster and sacrifice a little bit more.
you're gonna need a bigger boat atmo -


http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/universal_pictures/jaws/roy_scheider/jaws1.jpg

[shinomaster]

Zank my friend John (from Arlington) said you are having a stellar "breakout" year!

[zank]

I am getting ridiculously psyched for Portland. Mostly because I get to see all of you guys in a few weeks! :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

Πόρτλαντ shmortland τι γίνεται με το usgp αυτό το atmo Σαββατοκύριακου;

[shinomaster]

I am getting ridiculously psyched for Portland. Mostly because I get to see all of you guys in a few weeks! :beer:

Ok, what kind of beer shall I have uncorked waiting for you at the end of race#2? Westmalle Tripple? We start early out here...

[chrisroph]

Not really. It just means I have to train harder, get faster and sacrifice a little bit more.

unless he pinch flats.

oops responding to wrong post.

[shinomaster]

Πόρτλαντ shmortland τι γίνεται με το usgp αυτό το atmo Σαββατοκύριακου;

Hey atmo, at least you got to meet ,me at that race...

[chrisroph]

But the guy with better legs on Mud 2s will still beat you, as I continue to experience week in and week out.

insert pinch flat comment.

[J.Greene]

But the guy with better legs on Mud 2s will still beat you, as I continue to experience week in and week out.

The story of my life.....

JG

[shinomaster]

The story of my life.....

JG


I get beat by complete Freds in my races who look like they should be commuting rather than racing. I can't figure it out. I must just have a tiny engine. I have better bike handling skills than most of them too (my remounts and shouldering could use some work). It is funny to me how easily some of these guys fall down.
P.S. don't knock those Michelin tires!

[zank]

Thanks, Shino! It's been fun. It's odd how my perspective has changed. Going into the season, I was hoping to be top 10 in a couple of races. I was 8th last Saturday and was bummed out. It's been a good season thus far.

[shinomaster]

Thanks, Shino! It's been fun. It's odd how my perspective has changed. Going into the season, I was hoping to be top 10 in a couple of races. I was 8th last Saturday and was bummed out. It's been a good season thus far.

I think 8th is pretty kick-assed in B's! Are you serious? Just think, last you you were in my C race! My best result is ........17th.

[zank]

last weekend we had Plymouth and Putney. I was 8th and 6th in the Bs, respectively. Funny thing is I finished with exact same results in these two races last year, but in the Cs.

[shinomaster]

last weekend we had Plymouth and Putney. I was 8th and 6th in the Bs, respectively. Funny thing is I finished with exact same results in these two races last year, but in the Cs.


Wow....lucky numbers. :banana:

[chrisroph]

I just rode on tubulars for the first time today and I can't believe it! It's like rolling around on balloons!


you're just feeling the absorption and compliance. what you will realize is that they still roll fine. some people confuse that absorption for slow and overinflate the tires. then, they ride a bumpy course and get the snot pounded out of them. then they learn and let air out. you get to skip the overinflation part.

[shinomaster]

you're just feeling the absorption and compliance. what you will realize is that they still roll fine. some people confuse that absorption for slow and overinflate the tires. then, they ride a bumpy course and get the snot pounded out of them. then they learn and let air out. you get to skip the overinflation part.


The Griffos hooked up really well, I could take my usual corners tighter and faster I think. They felt really nice and squishy. I should have had these three years ago. Those Nucleons are almost mint! Thanks again Chris. :beer:

[saab2000]

I respect the tradition of tubulars, but modern technology replaced them. Is there a specific advantage you were or are seeking through the use of tubulars?

You're joking, right?

[chrisroph]

The Griffos hooked up really well, I could take my usual corners tighter and faster I think. They felt really nice and squishy. I should have had these three years ago. Those Nucleons are almost mint! Thanks again Chris. :beer:

they're great race wheels