What is Lance's "fascination" with Simeoni? - TdF spolier

[Bruce K]

Early in today's stage Simeoni, who is way down in the standings, chased down the break. Lance went after him, rode with the break for a while, and then the two of them drifted back to the peloton.

The newsflashes seemed to indicate that Lance's sole purpose was to bring Simeoni back to the peloton. They even went so far as to say it was Lance showing that he is truly "The Boss".

Anyone know what's up with that?

BK

[gt6267a]

from the live update:


2:13 p.m. - You may have guessed by now that the Armstrong chase of Simeoni had nothing to do with a GC threwat from a man mired in 114th at 02:42:50 off of the lead. Simeoni had earlier testified in the ongoing case against Micheli Ferrari, saying that the Italian doctor taught him to use EPO and to cover up its use. Armstrong, a long-time client of Ferrari, called Simeoni a liar and the Italian has since threatened to sue. This was purely personal.


there is no doubt armstrong will be asked about this after the stage or when the tour is complete. it will be interesting to hear what he says.

[Dr. Doofus]

stright outta tha badger

very cool

[Andreu]

I occasionally train with a guy who was in the badgers old team in Brittany (Club Olympique Briochin). After the old Broc retired from the proc scene he raced a little bit and this guy actually raced with him. So my one claim to fame in the cycling world is that I have sucked the wheel of someone who sucked the wheel of Le Blaireau.
A

[Bruce K]

Should make for a fascinating interview. :rolleyes:

Whatever he said Simeoni has apparently retreated to the rear of the peloton. :no:

I guess LA really is "The Boss".

BK

[Andreu]

Love it. This is what makes cycling more interesting. Sounds like this was a gesture of "I am the king of the pelaton"....... The human equivilant of a gorilla beating his chest. And done without the help of his obedient US crew.
Great stuff.
A

[Johny]

Indurain dominated by his silence: I like this way better...

[gt6267a]

From the cyclingnews live feed:


15:27 CEST 93km/73.5km to go
According to the unofficial word in the press room, when Armstrong reached the break earlier with Simeoni, he allegedly said to the others in the break, "If you ride with Simeoni in this breakaway, I'll put my team on the front to chase you down." There will no doubt be more to come in this story today.


nothing like a little personal battle to liven things up.

[MartyE]

Pure smackdown done ala cannibal or badger.
Lance threw down and declard "I am the Padrone"
very old school and very cool.

Marty

[Hard Fit]

It is the drug issue and the law suit issue. See http://www.loopdiloop.com/folderol/

[93legendti]

Lance rules. What happened to the guy in 1999/2000 who was ripping on Lance..Patrick Bassons...? gone and forgotten!

[Andreu]

Had to copy and paste the interesting bit from the above weblink:
"The Le Monde article quoted Armstrong as saying that Simeoni had "lied" when he told investigators it was Ferrari who showed him (Simeoni) how to use the banned blood booster EPO (erythropoietin) effectively. "
This one is going to run and run.
Maybe Mr Armstrong is little bit miffed with Mr Simeoni.
A

[Bruce K]

As I said, I found it very interesting that after whatever conversation took place up front Simeoni just dissappeared into the peloton.

It's obvious that Lance has so much "clout" that his comments sent Simeoni running and hiding in a hurry.

BK

[flydhest]

from today's NYTimes:


The escape riders knew that their chances of winning the stage were nil while Armstrong was with them. So they asked Simeoni to leave, Joly explained.

``When he let go, Lance had the kindness to do the same thing,'' he said.

[geezohwiz]

As usual, they have some colorful commentary to describe today's encounter between Lance and Simeoni, and then Lance's conversation with Ullrich. :p

[tom2517]

This from Cyclingnews:

For his part, Simeoni, who's currently suing Armstrong in an Italian court for defamation of character had harsh words for the man who perhaps spoiled his chance to be in the winning break today. "Today Armstrong showed the whole world what kind of person he is...I've suffered another big injustice from him with the whole world watching. A big champion like him can't possibly do something like that to a small rider like me and the other riders in the break who are looking for a moment of glory in the Tour de France. I was good today in the stage and made a good move to get up to the front group, but Armstrong followed me up to the break. It was a real shame."


Simeoni explained further that "When I bridged up to the break with Armstrong, the other riders got upset; it was normal that a break with the maillot jaune wouldn't stay away so for the respect of the other riders, I decided to drop back. If I was up there by myself with Armstrong, I wouldn't have dropped back."

[Kevan]

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2592252

[Johny]

....Armstrong's action today is hard to interpret. He explained that "I was protecting the interests of the peloton" to French TV after the stage and continued by saying, "The story of Simeoni is not a fair story...there's a long history there. All (journalists) want to write about is parts of the story. It's a long history...a guy like (Simeoni), all he wants to do is to destroy cycling...and for me, that's not correct. And I when I went back to the group they said 'chapeau'...thank you very much. Because they understand that (cycling) is their job and that they absolutely love it and they're committed to it and don't somebody within their sport destroying it. So...for me it's no problem to go on the wheel, to follow the wheel." --cyclingnews.com

[e-RICHIE]

re today's race tactics by lance:
i have now lost any respect i have left for this fellow.
he may be a great neighbor or a fun guy to throw a
few back with, but as a racing cyclist and ambassador
for our sport - what he did today was beneath contempt.
he used the stage of the tdf to make a point of his personal
feud with simeoni.
there are some great letters about it on vn.com:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6654.0.html

e-RICHIE

ps

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arrange disorder

[jeffg]

re today's race tactics by lance:
i have now lost any respect i have left for this fellow.
he may be a great neighbor or a fun guy to throw a
few back with, but as a racing cyclist and ambassador
for our sport - what he did today was beneath contempt.
he used the stage of the tdf to make a point of his personal
feud with simeoni.
there are some great letters about it on vn.com:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6654.0.html

e-RICHIE

ps

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Well, I confess I see it a bit differently. Simeoni had been in many breaks this TdF without success and without LA doing anything about it. Then, he thinks it's a good idea to say he was in the break to "show Armstrong." So, Lance lets him know that he can "show" Simeoni a thing or two if he wants.

It seems to me that Lance is under no obligation to let a breakaway succeed if he is not inclined. Why should he let someone who continues to insult him during the Tour have a chance to win a stage? If Simeoni had won, he would have taken a further dig at Armstrong just like he did when was in the winning break earlier. Lance just showed he doesn't have to put up with it. It's not what I would call a noble gesture, but Lance hasn't been the recipient of many of those lately. Beneath contempt? Hardly.

[Johny]

A simple question:
If the majority of the peloton are thought to be doping even by pros themselves, what are the interests of the peloton Lance is trying to protect?

[BikerGrl]

of my autographed LA stuff going up. Hahaha. Anyway, since it's Lance I had to weigh in. I do think a lot of what happened could have been kept in house, but I think it's a bit harsh to single this event out. For me, it's just one more of a long list of things that are going in the "Lance pile" and contribute to my increasing (help me here...distain..no, no. too severe, um let me see...) dislike, um, ahh LACK OF INTEREST and excitement for the coming day when there will be interest in other young American up-and-coming racers to win the TOUR (of course that means retirement for you know who). I hope through his wins increasing funds and sponsorship will go to American cycling and help fund new racers much as the USTA has done with American tennis.
Now the issue of drugs in cycling and sports in general....That's a much longer subject.

[shaq-d]

i can't wait till i see this on OLN in this coming hour after reading all the reports. if it is as it sounds, i think it's totally awesome. laying the smack down in the name of solidarity/righteousness/etc., lol. i've done similar on the basketball court when tiny people push me off and call "foul" in a hard-fought game. i say: "you call that a foul? alright, next time you come through, i'll show you what a real foul is", and that keeps everybody honest... is it bullying? i like to see it as giving a lesson in humility, just not MY humility ;).

sd

[Climb01742]

seems like the grand patron being, well, a grand patron. as, i believe, the badger would have done. king eddy too. richie, i think you may be a bit harsh in your judgement. settling personal scores on an athletic stage, while not noble, is, i think, an accepted and acceptable thing. as opposed to, say, grabbing a glock. :rolleyes:

[ericmurphy]

nor support for Simeoni. Or vice versa, for that matter. Since none of us here really knows what the doping reality is, it's not our place to judge either one of them.

But imagine how much this must have sucked for the poor bastard. You're a mediocre rider by the standards of the peloton. You're—what?—in 114th place in a field of 147? But you think today might be a good day to at least try for some glory. Table scraps, as it were. You're feeling pretty strong, and you see a chance for some limelight when you see the break.

You no sooner get up there with the escapees when the most terrifying guy in the peloton, the very biggest of big dogs, comes roaring up behind you and says, not to you, but to the other guys you're with, if you let this cur ride with you, none of you have a prayer of winning today. The six guys all look at you, and tell you to get lost.

Crushed, tail between your legs, face hot with anger and embarrassment, on the verge of tears, you end up at the very back of the pack, riding all by yourself, coming in third up from dead last. The rest of the peloton ignores you. The entire world has just witnessed your utter humiliation.

I'd be very surprised (not that we'll ever know) if Simeoni didn't cry himself to sleep tonight.

I can't help but feel bad for the guy, regardless of how right or wrong he is with his accusations. As for Lance, I admit to feelings of ambivalence (especially after yesterday's magnificent gesture with Landis), but as I said, I don't think any of us has the right to judge. The rest of the peloton seems solidly on Lance's side, not that that necessarily means anything either.

[e-RICHIE]

reply to board:
sorry for this incoherence. i just got back fro, serious imbibing.
note: who recalls the little rascals episode in which buckwheat(?)
stymie(?) was axed by the school marm mrs magillicutty(?) to
use the word "imbibe" in a sentence? he replied:
"imbibe, jesus was da hero."

anyway...
1)some of you mention OTHER breaks in which simeoni was in? when? i NEVER heard his name from day one until today.
2) i view lance's act as one equivilant to an "old boy's club". refering to him as a "patron" as in the old days makes me think of men's clubs and the skull and bones at yale and the ny yacht club. sure, merckx was a "patron" and maybe hainault (sp?) was too. but in this era i hardly think of lance of inheriting that moniker.
3) simeoni poses/posed NO threat to lance. this was an act of personal vendetta. in my opinion, david millar, who NEVER tested positive, who chronically denied drug use, who won the world championship, and THEN admitted tp EPO use is MORE a threat to the livlihood to lance and his peers that the lowly simeoni in 114th(?) place.
4) from reports i read on vn and cyclingnews, lance validated his actions by saying he had the interests of his sport/livlihood/fellow riders in mind when he shut down the break that simeoni joined. based on these reports, i still think it was small-minded.
5) hiccup. i'll run spellcheck and edit this tomorrow.
e-RICHIE

ps

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[TmcDet]

reply to board:
1)some of you mention OTHER breaks in which simeoni was in? when? i NEVER heard his name from day one until today.
arrange disorder

Simeoni was one of the 2 that got overtaken on stage 9 by the sprinters as they slowed down before what they thought would be a sprint between just the 2 of them...the 2 of them had been out on the break for about 200 km

[jerk]

no one sees this **** for what it is. lance armstrong pretty much admitted to organized doping within the peloton with his actions today. his act was ballsy, tough, vintage armstrong but it was essentially no different from a bunch of hematocrit sludge bloods sitting in the middle of the road protesting the festina affair back in '98. armstrong punked out simeoni because he's a snitch....lance's feel good nike image can't survice the truth that cycling is riddled with performance enhancing drugs. the jerk wishes he cared...but he's seen the underbelly of it and it is the least of proffessional cycling's worries.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

"Simeoni was one of the 2 that got overtaken on stage 9..."



ah -
i was not paying attention.
regardless, a true threat to the livlihood to lance and lance's peer group, n'est ce pas?
e-RICHIE

ps


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[jerk]

c'est vrai.

[tom2517]

Looking at various forums, it looks Lance's move might have backfired.

Lance is nice to people on his side, generous in fact, supposely not only does he gives all the prize money from TDF to his teammates, but he also put in bonus of same value. But if you get on his wrong side, well, you see what can happen.

But you know, a lot of successful people are like that, "my way, or the highway". Or in this case, get out of my way.

[csb]

texass

[Tom Byrnes]

I liked and admired Lance Armstrong. I raised $500 to ride the opening 100 km of the Tour of Hope in L.A. with Lance and several hundred cyclists last fall. He has done a wonderful job of creating much more awareness and raising a ton of money for cancer research. I was very moved by the person he had become as evidenced by his first book.

I was disappointed with his second book, which I purchased on the first day of its release. I expected more. More insight into life, maybe. I was also disappointed that after speaking so highly in his first book about his almost-saintly wife, that he chose to separate from her. After expressing such gratitude for the woman who had stood by him through his bout with cancer, I was very surprised he could leave her so (seemingly) easily. Alas, none of my business.

I think what Lance did today to Simeoni was a cheap shot; the act of a bully.

The Posties better guard Lance extra carefully on the last stage into Paris. I would not be surprised if Simeoni intentionally crashed into Lance in order to take Lance down. I wouldn't condone such an act, but I certainly could understand it.

I still admire Lance for his physical accomplishments and his commitment to eradicate cancer. But, what he did to Simeoni this morning was not a classy act.

:no: :no:

My Two Cents,

Tom

[Needs Help]

A simple question:
If the majority of the peloton are thought to be doping even by pros themselves, what are the interests of the peloton Lance is trying to protect?

A simple answer: their livelihood. Anyone who attacks the sport and tarnishes it can affect their pocketbooks.

no one sees this **** for what it is. lance armstrong pretty much admitted to organized doping within the peloton with his actions today.

It sure seemed like it. The doping mafia closed ranks around the godfather.

-----
"All he wants to do is destroy cycling and destroy the sport that pays him, and that's wrong," the Texan said Friday after his extraordinary move to rein in Simeoni.
----

[shaq-d]

when you get bullied, as an adult, you need to react like a man. simeoni didn't do that. he reacted like a pride-less joke with no balls. sure armstrong was a bully/etc. but simeoni had a chance to face the occasion and act like a man, i.e., staying in the break and going until he's dead tired or sucked back into the peloton. instead he gave out without even a whimper. if he had fought like a rat instead of a shying away like a coward we'd be talking about what a great effort simeoni gave, not what a bully armstrong is.

my only point is that as much as armstrong bullied, simeoni got himself bullied.

sd

edit: the guardian, as always, has been covering the tour nicely and there's a nice article on simeoni/armstrong. http://sport.guardian.co.uk/tourdefrance2004/story/0,14667,1268137,00.html

[Ray]

no one sees this **** for what it is. lance armstrong pretty much admitted to organized doping within the peloton with his actions today. his act was ballsy, tough, vintage armstrong but it was essentially no different from a bunch of hematocrit sludge bloods sitting in the middle of the road protesting the festina affair back in '98. armstrong punked out simeoni because he's a snitch....lance's feel good nike image can't survice the truth that cycling is riddled with performance enhancing drugs. the jerk wishes he cared...but he's seen the underbelly of it and it is the least of proffessional cycling's worries.


During (or after) the Festina affair in '98, I remember an interview with Virenque about Willy Voet (who exposed a lot of the doping in his book, IIRC). Virenque didn't understand how Voet could 'try to destroy cycling, the sport which has been his livlihood and which he professes to love'. I'm sure I don't have it exactly, but close enough. What Lance said today sounded VERY similar. Doesn't prove anything, of course, but I was struck by the similarity in the language and the reaction of the peloton. Sounds like some sort of doping code of honor among the bunch.

-Ray

[Johny]

Lance: And if Bassons wants to cry and whine and say bad things about people, then he can do that - but it's not professional and I simply said to him "Look, if you're going to degrade me and degrade the sport, then you should go home" - so he went home...-- http://www.lancearmstrong.com/99tdfwords.html



lancearmstrong.com: The other rider to drop had achieved his own notoriety in the peloton with his pen more than his bike. Christophe Bassons, a rider-cum-columnist for "La Parisien" newspaper, said the pack was just putting to much isolation and pressure on him. Bassons has been mounting an anti-doping crusade throughout the TdF, and apparently his methods were not well received by his cycling comrades...-- http://www.lancearmstrong.com/99tdfstage13.html

Christophe Bassons: http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=7270 . I think he was retired a few years ago.

[Climb01742]

retaliation is part of sport. not a pretty part, but part of it. baseball: you throw at my guys, i'll throw at you. football: you cheap shot my guys, i'll cheap shot you. basketball: the "hard" foul. we can discuss until dooms day whether sport would be better off without this culture of tit for tat. but it exists. maybe i'm flawed, but back in the day when i played team sports, i laid a few guys out for cheap shotting my teammates. i'm not proud of doing it but i'm not ashamed either. sport has its unwritten rules. payback is one of them. errant machoism is one too. in pleasant society what lance did might be wrong. in sport, no. as a football coach of mine once said, a coach who i hated BTW, well, ladies, there's always chess. i post this not to argue with anyone, but to state the other side. maybe yesterday wasn't lance's finest moment, but it was well within the nature of sport. we can't choose only the parts of sport we like. there's the whole package. ladies, there's always chess. :beer:

[scottcw]

I can't believe that anyone would have a problem with what Armstrong did. As a baseball fan, I will use an analogy from that sport... back in the day, if a batter hit a home run early in the game, it was common for the pitcher to drill him the next time he came up to bat. It was intimidation and a message, "Don't do that again." Hardly ever happens anymore because the game has changed to be for wussies. Recently, Gary Sheffield made some disparaging comments regarding Roger Clemens when discussing the BALCO investigation. The only reason that he has not been drilled is because he is a star. If some baseball player who is the equivalent of Simeoni had made the same comments about Clemens, he would have had a fastball in his ear by now.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you do, don't complain when the hand b!#@h slaps you.

[dbrk]

I have had a mixed personal reaction to Lance's actions. But it is just as interesting to me to watch how people react to such blatant displays of power and authority. Some applaud, others decry; some look for the deeper reasons while others are content to see the act itself as the message. Actions are messages but so are words, no? I would draw two simple conclusions: Simeoni is a pariah for whatever various and complex reasons his colleagues have. The near-universal approval from within the peloton of Armstrong's actions is not itself proof of anything even if it sends a confused, even unfortunate set of messages.

I wish Lance were as strong an advocate against doping (and, by definition, cheating) as he is an advocate for cancer survivors and other valuable causes. I will not cast aspersions upon his character or claim to know about his behaviors without more persuasive evidence of culpability. As an academic I am naturally skeptical, trained like others such as barristers Brynes and dnovo, to consider seriously circumstantial evidence. To implicate Armstrong in doping, especially the post-cancer LA, requires, imo, far more than what has been currently presented.

Unfortunately I think LeMond lost the high-ground and the opportunity to advocate against doping more effectively by implicating Lance and not providing more than an accusation. Had LeMond joined with the other great American champions such as Andy Hampsten, Davis Phinney, and others to form a united front _with_ Lance against doping then I think we would have something worthwhile to acclaim. As it is we will witness a far less effective effort to change things for the better. There is simply not enough or the proper display of authority to make effective change a reality. (I feel this same way about, say, the state of the environment. We sleepwalk towards disaster that no one really wants. I digress.)

Undoubtedly doping is a very serious issue, not only of integrity but of health. I look at these fellas like they are friends, brothers, or sons (perhaps because I deal with young people all the time...) and I think endangering your health or your life for racing bicycles (no matter the money or fame, teemay/kleos [Gk.], artha/yashas [Skt.] for you classicists...) is not worth it. It is also likely the case that doping is rampant because there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to support that impression.

But it's also likely that Simeoni would have done precisely what Lance said he would have done had he had success yesterday and if I had been Lance with the power to prevent him from gaining a platform for more personal invective directed at me then I would have done the same thing Lance did. Simeoni is not merely advocating against doping, he is charging Armstrong directly and personally. I have a keen personal sense of this relationship between personal accusation and professional integrity. I have been accused in public of things I have not done and by those with seeming credibility, a willingness to make accusations without real knowledge, an audience eager to hear them, and a public platform that they would use as many times as they could to make their "case." I have sat powerless in front of them as they made their accusations wondering how to defend oneself against a negative (how do you prove you didn't do it?). I have felt this affront and the commensurate powerlessness to "defend" or advance my own "version" of the story. Had I a way doing something to stop these accusors, I would have done it. So I cannot resent Lance his power or his willingness to use it. Was it personal? You bet it was. So were Simeoni's accusations and so was the likelihood of his using a Tour placing to make further personal accusations. Lance defended himself because he could; he used his power to disempower his accusor. I grew up in Jersey in the '60 and early '70s where as a kid you developed a keen sense of the difference between pure power and justice. There was plenty of both to be seen. What we saw here was more than power but it was not enough to demonstrate whether it contained a deeper justice. After all, if Lance is not a cheat (and, again, how do you prove you are not a cheat?) then why should Simeoni be given a platform to make such accusations? History will reveal more.

The line between what is personal and professional has been blurred here, the one clearly crossing over into the other. This is new or unusual? Perhaps history will reveal more but, as I see it, doping, cheating, and lying require greater moral authority than has been yet exercised by all the principals who could make a difference. Until there is greater moral, professional, and collective (call it political) will to change things, then we will continue to languish in accusation, invective, and reprobation. We may never know the truth but that too is not unusual in itself.

dbrk

[va rider]

I agree with you Scott.

boo hoo hoo. Lance didn't let me try to win a stage. That's how it goes when you take on the big dog.

If Simeoni didn't like it, he should of fought like a man and stayed in the attack, and worn down Lance.

No, instead he goes to the press and whines.

[Roy E. Munson]

VA Rider,

Your take on what happened is far too simplistic, and pretty well off base. The problem with having Simeoni, and by default Lance, in the break is that it would send alarm bell's ringing in the peloton and it would have certainly bought a chase from behind, dooming the break. Simeoni was helpless, there was nothing he could do to help keep that break away. It was actually another rider, Garcia Acosta, who rode to LA and Simeoni and asked them to leave the break. I suspect had they stayed in the break, LA would have say on the back and done nothing until the chase reeled them in. A rider will go through drastic measures to conceal their doping. The jerk nailed it right on the head.

What is funny is that when someone says something about Lance and he sues, he's making all the right moves. When Lance says something about someone else and they sue, they are vilified. Sheryl Crow should dump that prima dona and get back with a real man - Kid Rock!

[JohnS]

You're missing the point. If LA had stayed with the break, the peloton would have had no choice but to chase it down. Then none of the six would have had a chance for the stage win. Lance wouldn't have had to do any work at all.

[cycler48]

dbrk,

Very well put.

There are too many people on these forums accusing and commenting on something they really know very little about except for what they read in the press.

[JohnS]

Kid Rock is a punk. All his "songs" sound the same. Besides, what is more assinine than a white rap singer. The bad thing is that both he and Eminem are from my neck of the woods. Besides, he has his hands full (pun intended) with Pamela Anderson.

[e-RICHIE]

...i still return to my original feeling that if lance (or anyone...) was interested in the livlihood and the sport there also needs to be similar denouncements against w.c. david millar for his recent episode.
i am unable to seperate all this out: simeoni pled his case in the 90s, took his punishment, and then - years later - l.a. comes under scrutiny an is linked with dr. ferrari, during which time he infers that simeoni was lying while he testified (years earlier...) against the doctor.

imo, david millar's case (a 2003 world champion) is much more threatening to the sport's credibility than the 7-8 year old drug case of some guy in 114th place.

does anyone else see the analogy i'm trying to make?
e-RICHIE

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[e-RICHIE]

Cycler48 wrote:
"There are too many people on these forums accusing and commenting on something they really know very little about except for what they read in the press."


are there other resources?
e-RICHIE

ps


:confused: :confused: :confused:
:D :D :D
;) ;) ;)

arrange disorder

[Roy E. Munson]

Kid Rock owns the original General Lee - nuff said.

[Climb01742]

for me, the most damaging aspect of david millar case -- after, of course, simply doping -- is, while other people associated with cofidis were being investigated, millar screamed his innocence, make numerous protestations of his total opposition to doping...and then was busted. his loud pleas of innocence, followed by guilt, make other riders' pleas of innocence harder to believe...even if true. when the innocent and the guilty sound the same, how is one supposed to know which is which?

[e-RICHIE]

"for me, the most damaging aspect of david millar case -- after, of course, simply doping -- is, while other people associated with cofidis were being investigated, millar screamed his innocence, make numerous protestations of his total opposition to doping...and then was busted. his loud pleas of innocence, followed by guilt, make other riders' pleas of innocence harder to believe...even if true. when the innocent and the guilty sound the same, how is one supposed to know which is which?"


thank you, Climb-o
e-RICHIE

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;) ;) ;)
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;) ;) ;)

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[dbrk]

...i still return to my original feeling that if lance (or anyone...) was interested in the livlihood and the sport there also needs to be similar denouncements against w.c. david millar for his recent episode.
i am unable to seperate all this out: simeoni pled his case in the 90s, took his punishment, and then - years later - l.a. comes under scrutiny an is linked with dr. ferrari, during which time he infers that simeoni was lying while he testified (years earlier...) against the doctor.

imo, david millar's case (a 2003 world champion) is much more threatening to the sport's credibility than the 7-8 year old drug case of some guy in 114th place.

does anyone else see the analogy i'm trying to make?
e-RICHIE

arrange disorder

I'm not sure I understand e-richie's analogy. Would someone care to explain to dense ol' me?

The whole matter of accusations about doping lacks the weight of moral authority because LA has not been as clear an advocate against doping as he could be. That he chooses not to denounce Millar is a feature of friendship, another blurred line between personal matters and professional conduct. Simeoni's testimony implicates Armstrong, claiming that _he_ is lying, no matter what is said about Ferrari. Again, the matter is personal. It is unfortunate that LA defends and associates with the likes of Dr. Ferrari but at least he can be said to be loyal to friends who are loyal to him. I would not like to cross him, that's for sure. When you are attacked personally (again, forgive me for being too self-referential), there is little left but loyalties and friendships precisely because the "truth" is never really clear enough to satisfy your accusors or doubters. LA resents the guilt by association with Ferrari. I think I understand that but it is his choice to choose this friends, no matter the cost. For that, I respect him even if I think it unwise. The accusation of cheating demands as much prudence as it does evidence.

dbrk

[e-RICHIE]

dbrk asked:
"I'm not sure I understand e-richie's analogy. Would someone care to explain to dense ol' me?"

perhaps "analogy" is not the correct word. let's try this: lance et al have the world stage w the tdf and lance chooses his act yesterday to "satisfy a grudge", to quote the headlines in today's ny times.
all of this is related to drug use in cycling. friendships, loyalties, reputations; all these aside. lance said he was acting in the interest of his peers who make their livlihood from the sport (he says) simeoni is trying to destroy.
less than a month ago, david millar - 2003 world champ - long a denyer of drug use - never a positive test - admits to EPO use in hamilton...less than a month ago this is front and center news. how can lance worry about a lowly simeoni's history when a world champion and tdf stage winner takes the hook in june. let lance step up to the plate and proclaim that despite the entire millar episode, the sport is clean. he's so worried that simeoni has such an influence; i think millar's situation is far more damaging than anything that simeoni can do to the peloton.
e-RICHIE

ps

:banana: :banana: :banana:
:banana: :banana: :banana:
:banana: :banana: :banana:

arrange disorder

[e-RICHIE]

shaq-d wrote:
the guardian, as always, has been covering the tour nicely and there's a nice article on simeoni/armstrong. http://sport.guardian.co.uk/tourdef...1268137,00.html

this is worth reading.
e-RICHIE

ps


;) ;) ;)
;) ;) ;)
;) :D :D

arrange disorder

[tom2517]

I can't believe that anyone would have a problem with what Armstrong did. As a baseball fan, I will use an analogy from that sport... back in the day, if a batter hit a home run early in the game, it was common for the pitcher to drill him the next time he came up to bat. It was intimidation and a message, "Don't do that again." Hardly ever happens anymore because the game has changed to be for wussies. Recently, Gary Sheffield made some disparaging comments regarding Roger Clemens when discussing the BALCO investigation. The only reason that he has not been drilled is because he is a star. If some baseball player who is the equivalent of Simeoni had made the same comments about Clemens, he would have had a fastball in his ear by now.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you do, don't complain when the hand b!#@h slaps you.

So baseball has turn into a game for wussies because pitchers do not trying to tag hitters for hitting a home run? Well then, I guess cycling is a race for wussies too because I don't see anyone trying to run Lance off the road because hey Lance, you win too much, don't do that again.

[shaq-d]

ladies, there's always chess. :beer:

lol climb..having played some high level chess in my teens, i can say that you can receive a huge mental whoop-ass in chess too :p

sd

[pbbob]

lol climb..having played some high level chess in my teens, i can say that you can receive a huge mental whoop-ass in chess too :p

sd
I can relate to that. [ 1992 class d new mexico state champion, still have the trophy ] kind of like winning the lantern rouge in the tour.

[scottcw]

So baseball has turn into a game for wussies because pitchers do not trying to tag hitters for hitting a home run? Well then, I guess cycling is a race for wussies too because I don't see anyone trying to run Lance off the road because hey Lance, you win too much, don't do that again.

The point is that intimidation and sending a message are part of competition. Diplomacy is for politics. Perhaps the critics in the peanut gallery would be happier if all the riders in the TdF gathered at the end of each day to hold hands and sing "We Are the World."

:rolleyes:

[sfscott]

Forget about all the symbolism of protecting the Peloton or condoning doping.

The simple reason may be that now, since the race is won, LA just decided to go F&$k with Simeoni because he could and is pissed about the lawsuit. So what? I never got all this cycling gentleman stuff.

I look at waiting for a guy who's fallen or had a mechanical as less sportsmanship and more ego. That is to say, you can't make any excuses--not I waited to be a gentleman and be fair.

And there is a difference between libel and defamation of character. LA sued the author of the recent book in the countries where it was published--places that also have fairly broad anti-libel laws. IMHO, this is a lot different than someone suing you because his feelings were hurt.

If Simeoni is such a pussy that he can't handle Lance expressing an opinion in a newspaper, then he should find something more gentle and PC to do.

There is a difference.

And, I also am amazed that so many here, who seem to be involved in competitive sports, seem not to get the champion's motivation to stomp the guts out of everyone. Imagine Ronnie Lott not hitting someone hard because the game was won.

I love how so many people *know* LA is doping. Guess all that year-round training, great strategy and tactics, the best team and all his physical gifts couldn't be enough. You all should go discuss with Ulrich over a gallon of beer and 19 schnitzels.

[Climb01742]

richie...about the guardian article...for an english writer to criticize lance for being a "bully"?...please see english history 1. ireland, 2. india, 3. america pre 1776, 4. suez canal, 5. boer war, 6. any english colony...for centuries, england was the bully to pretty much the rest of the world...english schoolling is virtually built on the "art" of bullying...forgive me if my reaction to an englishman criticizing someone for bullying is shove it up their colonial arse...

[e-RICHIE]

Climb-o
i mean this with all the love i can muster - but your logic
reminds me of some of my fellow yeshiva graduates who
still won't buy a german car due to the recent unpleasantness.

anyway. shaq-d outed the article. personally, the sentiment
resonates with me regardless of the country of origin.
e-RICHIE

ps

:beer: :beer: :beer:
:beer: :beer: :beer:
:beer: :beer: :beer:

arrange disorder

[csb]

lance is just another over talented egotistical bastard, he should take his
ball + 6 piss yellow jerseys and go back to texas were they
they 'dislike' cyclists more than the french, vegetarians, +
democrats combined, 'ya sure he's 5,000 x's better on a bike
than i can dream of being + he can burn 6.6 liters of oxygen
more efficiently than a boy scout campfire but geese louise
he ruined a stage of the tour, especially ruined it for the guys
in the break, all because he has a personal grievance with
some lowly, whiney + amount to nil italian cyclist, whom by
the way should have stayed in the break, forcing the stamp-lickers
to chase and thereby showing just who is at fault for chucking
the break in the crapper. it took alot of ball to make a private spat
public in such manner. simeoni caved in a most alarming exibit
of pussyitis, but he chased the break out of legitimate racing reason,
unlike whatshisname.

[shaq-d]

Climb-o
i mean this with all the love i can muster - but your logic
reminds me of some of my fellow yeshiva graduates who
still won't buy a german car due to the recent unpleasantness.

anyway. shaq-d outed the article. personally, the sentiment
resonates with me regardless of the country of origin.
e-RICHIE


lol. indeed i did the out-ing. and you're right on; it's as disgusting to label a man a nation as it is for a bully to call the kettle black...

sd

[shaq-d]

lance is just another over talented egotistical bastard, he should take his
ball + 6 piss yellow jerseys..etc etc.

lol. nice rant. :banana:

sd

[tom2517]

The point is that intimidation and sending a message are part of competition. Diplomacy is for politics. Perhaps the critics in the peanut gallery would be happier if all the riders in the TdF gathered at the end of each day to hold hands and sing "We Are the World."

:rolleyes:

The point of many here was that it was unnecessary. Of course he can do what he wants, and I am sure he doesn't care what you and I think. But he took a hit at the guy and it looks bad on him.

Instead of celebrating his sixth tour, everyone is talking about this, including us. If Lance is so bother by the doping scandal, he should not have created a spotlight on himself.

http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=342

[Climb01742]

richie...true, my logic isn't perfect...i have a special dislike for portions of england's history...as i do for portions of our's (slavery, treatment of indians and japanese internment during ww2)...and i have a special respect for lance...so my post wasn't entirely logical...or even right...it was just me being me... :beer:

[scottcw]

The simple reason may be that now, since the race is won, LA just decided to go F&$k with Simeoni because he could and is pissed about the lawsuit. So what? I never got all this cycling gentleman stuff.

[snip]

And, I also am amazed that so many here, who seem to be involved in competitive sports, seem not to get the champion's motivation to stomp the guts out of everyone. Imagine Ronnie Lott not hitting someone hard because the game was won.

Exactly. Is cycling a competitive sport or a country club?

[bostondrunk]

There is nothing wrong with Lance screwing with othetr riders. If they don't like it, they <burp> can attack and <burp><burp><burp> do something about it<burp>. He deserves the respect <burp> he gets, he's the best at <burp><burp> hiding the dope!! :argue: :bike: :beer:

[Needs Help]

I was disappointed with his second book, which I purchased on the first day of its release. I expected more. More insight into life, maybe. I was also disappointed that after speaking so highly in his first book about his almost-saintly wife, that he chose to separate from her. After expressing such gratitude for the woman who had stood by him through his bout with cancer, I was very surprised he could leave her so (seemingly) easily. Alas, none of my business.

Huh? From my memory of the first book, Lance first dumped the girlfriend that stood by his side through the cancer and then shacked up with his nurse, who was to become his future bride. He'd already dumped one loved one who had stood by his side, dumping his wife was the second go around.

[Saxon]

the jerk wishes he cared...but he's seen the underbelly of it and it is the least of proffessional cycling's worries.

jerk
Tell us about the whores, Jerk. We want to hear about the whores... :D