Shimano Cantis vs. Paul's vs ???

[DarrenCT]

Hey Guys and Gals,

Whats the word on the steet for the best cantis for a cross bike?

The new shimano?

Paul's?

Thanks
-d

[ButtedMoron]

Hey Guys and Gals,

Whats the word on the steet for the best cantis for a cross bike?

The new shimano?

Paul's?

Thanks
-d

get the Pauls

Touring in Rear, Neo Retro in the Front

I'm old school and don't mind bending my canti posts for toe in so I use Spookys and Froggleggs

[stevep]

shimano.
easier to work with, adjust, install.

[musgravecycles]

What are you looking for? Power. Mud clearance. Euro-snob appeal.

Best bang for buck is Shimano by a long shot.

I've got Neo Retro's (F&R) on the race rig and love them, but the Shimano's do have more power (less mud clearance though). The Shimano's are super easy to setup, and don't seem to be as prone to the squealing Avid's are. I'd highly recommend Kool Stop Salmon pads whichever way you go...

[nowheels]

Pauls or Frogleggs........ NO AVIDS.........

[DarrenCT]

shimano.
easier to work with, adjust, install.

can someone give me a link to the best shimano cantis?

[dirtdigger88]

what bike is this for- what size is the bike- what type of fork steel or carbon

IMHO there is a dirty little secret about Pauls Neo-Retros that no one talks about- They are too strong-

Ive talk to lots of people who get crazy brake chatter with them- myself included - please spare me the hints on set up- thanks anyway

right now I feel that I have mine figured out- two years into owning them

Ive gone to a Salsa wide hanger (15mm) up crazy high in the air- its almost even with my logo on my HT and I ride a 61cm bike-

what Ive done is basicly make my brakes weaker - to make them work

they also seem to favor rims with machined sidewalls -

I really like my Pauls- they are cool to look at and now they work well for me- NOW
but as was mentioned before- Shimano's are way easier to deal with

[DarrenCT]

how about power?

and

how about euro-snob appeal?

What are you looking for? Power. Mud clearance. Euro-snob appeal.

Best bang for buck is Shimano by a long shot.

I've got Neo Retro's (F&R) on the race rig and love them, but the Shimano's do have more power (less mud clearance though). The Shimano's are super easy to setup, and don't seem to be as prone to the squealing Avid's are. I'd highly recommend Kool Stop Salmon pads whichever way you go...

[Grant McLean]

any shop should be able to get you BR-R550 canti's from QBP

-g

[DarrenCT]

Grant,

its amazing how you know all these "product codes". can you read morris code?

[musgravecycles]

Power=Shimano

Euro=Spooky (though adjustments can be a beyotch)

Snob&Power=TRP CR950

Ultra Trick=Pauls

I've got Neo Retro's (and Shimano's) with salmon's. Like Dirt I've got Salsa Hangers run as high as the straddle cable will allow. Honestly if I were doing it again, and I wasn't a little enticed by the Pauls sex appeal I'd go with Shimano's (BR-550)...

[DarrenCT]

good info...

aside the looks, having brakes that actually "work" is probably important function :)

[Grant McLean]

Grant,

its amazing how you know all these "product codes". can you read morris code?

--. .. ...- .
-- .
.-
-... .-. .- -.- .
..
.- --
-. --- -
.-
-- --- .-. ... .
-. . .-. -..

.... .-
.... .-



-g

[musgravecycles]

Snipped: aside the looks, having brakes that actually "work" is probably important function :)

That's the thing though. Re the wide-profile canti's, while they don't 'work' as well in dry conditions, work better in muddy conditions on account of their superior mud clearance. Ya dig?

[DarrenCT]

Snob&Power=TRP CR950

^

these looks pretty cool. im doing a bit of research for a friend who is getting a legend cross bike and i'll be getting my zank cross in a few months...

the cross bikes won't be raced or probably even ridden in the mud. basically a dirt trail / winter rig / around town bike...

[musgravecycles]

Yeah, I dig 'em. They'll prolly end up on one of my bikes sooner or later. But if your not an elitist-racer get the Shimano's, they sound like what you need.

[gdw]

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=6350&category=38

[dirtdigger88]

Honestly if I were doing it again, and I wasn't a little enticed by the Pauls sex appeal I'd go with Shimano's (BR-550)...

I feel the exact same way

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l162/dirt_011/pauls.jpg

jason

[Bruce K]

Darren;

Lots to look at at www.cyclocrossworld.com

BK

[DarrenCT]

j-man,

what tires are you running?

[dirtdigger88]

those are the vittoria limited editions

basicly the green 24mm tires- just not green- clincher

once the leaves start to fall the street sweepers stop- I put my high dollar tubulars away . . . cept when jimi is going to hand me my head :rolleyes:

Jason

[musgravecycles]

I feel the exact same way
jason

Nice setup bro ;)

http://a27.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/126/l_64425b4b7df8f912b6a0b6df7abdc582.jpg

*Best Pic I could find of the Neo Retro/Salsa combo w/o our laptop...

[Ken Robb]

what bike is this for- what size is the bike- what type of fork steel or carbon

IMHO there is a dirty little secret about Pauls Neo-Retros that no one talks about- They are too strong-

Ive talk to lots of people who get crazy brake chatter with them- myself included - please spare me the hints on set up- thanks anyway

right now I feel that I have mine figured out- two years into owning them

Ive gone to a Salsa wide hanger (15mm) up crazy high in the air- its almost even with my logo on my HT and I ride a 61cm bike-

what Ive done is basicly make my brakes weaker - to make them work

they also seem to favor rims with machined sidewalls -

I really like my Pauls- they are cool to look at and now they work well for me- NOW
but as was mentioned before- Shimano's are way easier to deal with

According to Paul in your set-up (in the photo you posted ) will give you a slightly mushy feel at the lever but MAXIMUM power. He told me to lower my straddle wire for a firm feel with less power. When I look at your photo I can see that the high straddle wire will give less pad movement but maximum leverage vs. a lower cable which would move the pads more with less leverage as there would be some force dissipated trying to squeeze the arms in as well as up. Some engineer familiar with vector analysis can explain this better than I but low cables make the Neo Retro brakes feel stiff and strong but maximum power comes with raised cables. Brakes with arms not as horizontal (like the Paul Touring or Shimano) may react differently to straddle cable positioning.
I have Shimano and Pauls and they both work great but I think the Pauls are a bit easier to set up because they allow me to dial in spring pressure exactly.

[vandeda]

According to Paul in your set-up (in the photo you posted ) will give you a slightly mushy feel at the lever but MAXIMUM power. He told me to lower my straddle wire for a firm feel with less power. When I look at your photo I can see that the high straddle wire will give less pad movement but maximum leverage vs. a lower cable which would move the pads more with less leverage as there would be some force dissipated trying to squeeze the arms in as well as up. Some engineer familiar with vector analysis can explain this better than I but low cables make the Neo Retro brakes feel stiff and strong but maximum power comes with raised cables. Brakes with arms not as horizontal (like the Paul Touring or Shimano) may react differently to straddle cable positioning.
I have Shimano and Pauls and they both work great but I think the Pauls are a bit easier to set up because they allow me to dial in spring pressure exactly.

Sheldon Brown explains this, and Jason has his setup right for less power. Lowering the straddle wire will give more power.

http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html (search for yolk angle).

[93legendti]

Cane Creek--ask e-RICHIE.

[dirtdigger88]

here is the deal- after too years of grabby - chattering brakes I finally ended up here-

dont care what anyone says or how anyone wants to explain it

if you want to run neos up front and you want to be able to brake like normal road brakes (late and hard) and you dont want the most awful chatter you have ever felt-

you must run your brakes like this-

I could name the member here who have the same set up as me- most of them ended up here for the exact reason as me

Ill end all debating - 11.4 told me to do it this way- :cool:

Jason

[Bruce K]

Hey Jason,

Luv ya man but some of us are too freakin' short to have frames big enough to run your setup.

Wish i could.

BK

[Kevan]

Never mind!!! - "Some photos as to how you made yours work would be cool. I mean...seeing as you're not doing anything 'n' all."

Thanks.

Those Shimano are butt ugly for a braking system that was never really meant to be good looking.

[dirtdigger88]

Hey Jason,

Luv ya man but some of us are too freakin' short to have frames big enough to run your setup.

Wish i could.

BK

EXACTLY- thats why in the beginning I asked what size bike -

my yoke is 17cm above my canti posts- go grab a tape measure and see where 17cm gets most people

Jason

[Grant McLean]

Grant's taste in bicycles is excellent,
as is my own...

Jason

You can say that again, bro :)

-g

[dirtdigger88]

cm's


-g

(dang metric system...) :)

6.7 inches!!!!

isnt that the average size of a human penis too???? :confused: :D

well those of us from the states never could understand that d@mn thing

Jason

[11.4]

Hey Jason,

Luv ya man but some of us are too freakin' short to have frames big enough to run your setup.

Wish i could.

BK

This is why small riders (me included) don't use steer-mounted hangars but use a drilled stem instead. You buy a lot more room to work with. In the rear, if that's a problem, you can put a clamp on a seatpost if you have to or use a Travel Agent mounted into a hole in the back of your seatpost to buy you enough height. It ain't perfect, but it works. Your only other choice, short of compromising a lot on performance, is to skip the Pauls and go to something with less straddle height needed such as the Shimanos.

[Bruce K]

Actually, all that said, my Paul's work great on the Concours Cross.

The bike pretty much stops like my road bikes.

But then again I'm a cross racer wannabe/mid to back packer and lovin' every minute of it.

BK

[Ken Robb]

Sheldon Brown explains this, and Jason has his setup right for less power. Lowering the straddle wire will give more power.

http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html (search for yolk angle).
Sheldon explains about typical canti brakes where the angle between the arms is greater than 90 degress (looks like 100 or more to me) NOT the Neo Retro where the angle seems to be an atypical 90 degrees. I got my info from Paul who designed the things and I tried many adjustments after getting hsi advice. On my Hampsten high=power; low equals firm lever but less and more easily modulated power.

If you look at the Paul page and compare the head-on pix of the two models you can see how the height of the straddle wire would give different results on each brake design. You get the most power when the pull of the brake cable is transmitted to the brake arm in the straightest line and this line is straightest on the neo with a high straddle wire and straightest on the touring and most other cantis with a lower straddle. I have no idea how we Forumites have had such different results but I have both models of Paul brakes and they are both fine. So are my Shimanos and Diacomp 986s. I like cantis.

[zank]

Look no further...
http://bp2.blogger.com/_NqIVR0ONLFQ/RvzwEsgSIKI/AAAAAAAAATU/GSyTiMbvf7Y/s400/Zanconato

[chrisroph]

Look no further...
http://bp2.blogger.com/_NqIVR0ONLFQ/RvzwEsgSIKI/AAAAAAAAATU/GSyTiMbvf7Y/s400/Zanconato

that's slick

does anybody sell them?

[jerk]

that's slick

does anybody sell them?

barrel adjusters or drill bits so you can thread them through your mad painful dirt farmer froglegs/4za/whatever awful mafac rip off brakes?

jerk

[CNY rider]

that's slick

does anybody sell them?

You might want to check with Mr. Kirk.

[norman neville]

Snob&Power=TRP CR950

^

these looks pretty cool. im doing a bit of research for a friend who is getting a legend cross bike and i'll be getting my zank cross in a few months...

the cross bikes won't be raced or probably even ridden in the mud. basically a dirt trail / winter rig / around town bike...

but if you won't be racing, you don't need a cross bike. what you described is a jitensha allarounder or rivendell atlantis. both are fine.

if you do get a cross bike anyway, get the new tektro brakes that look like jerk's beloved mafac rip-offs, trp or trk or whatever. very nice. not as inexpensive as you would think, but good.

[cpg]

This is why small riders (me included) don't use steer-mounted hangars but use a drilled stem instead. You buy a lot more room to work with. In the rear, if that's a problem, you can put a clamp on a seatpost if you have to or use a Travel Agent mounted into a hole in the back of your seatpost to buy you enough height. It ain't perfect, but it works. Your only other choice, short of compromising a lot on performance, is to skip the Pauls and go to something with less straddle height needed such as the Shimanos.


With small bikes brazing on the cable stop like this is dope atmo.

Curt

[11.4]

With small bikes brazing on the cable stop like this is dope atmo.

Curt

Yes, lots of solutions of you are building or at least refinishing a frame.

As to Jerk's comment about amateurs not always being able to use handslings, that was actually the case back when at the European six-day tracks as well. There were limited conditions under which handslings could be used but all riders had to rely on buttslings most of the time. Handslings were thought to be more dangerous. Organizers finally figured out that it was really the other way around so now this is all history.

[DarrenCT]

any thoughts on the avid shorty 6?

[Ken Robb]

any thoughts on the avid shorty 6?
Lots of folks complain of squealing but I've never tried them.

[DarrenCT]

Lots of folks complain of squealing but I've never tried them.

ya i had the shorty 4 and had some squealing but maybe the shorty 6's are "much improved"?

[nowheels]

any thoughts on the avid shorty 6?
Don't do it..... a waste of money......I'd go with the cane creek or shimanos before going back to Avid's........they squeal like a pig and shudder like crazy on graphite forks.