Frame age and Value

[TheDon]

I recently had an email conversation with a fellow board member regarding the Sachs frame I am selling. He does not know I am going to post this nor is it relative to the question as to whom the other person is. I am curious as to the consensus of the rest of the board on a few points which may or may not have an impact on market value.

1. Does the age of a sachs frame make it more or less "valuable"?
2. Does a refurbished frame make it more or less "valuable"?
3. Does the overall mileage on a frame make it more or less "valuable"?

Thanks for your input,
Don

[alembical]

I think that an older frame is worth less (but the question is how much) simply because the quality of new frames is better. I am imaging some on the forum, who know much more than me, disagreeing, but I would think that a 2004 Sachs would ride nicer than an 1994 Sachs, but I would think they would be close. If the frame was refurbished by someone skilled, I would think that would add value to the frame (so long as not a collector frame), rather than deduct from the value. I also think that the overall mileage on a frame would deduct from its value, but I would much rather have a high mileage well-cared for frame than a frame with low mileage that has not been cared for. If the bike was carbon (anywhere) the mileage would even matter more to me.

Alembical

[flydhest]

If it were my money, answers to 1 and 3 are unequivocally less valuable. Of course, for #3 it would be hard to know for sure and one would have to trust the seller.

#2 is harder. If the frame were in crap condition, refurbing would raise the value for me. However, if it was in reasonable condition, I'd rather have as close to the original as possible.

[Smiley]

In this day and age of Ti and Carbon frames I think steel frames in general DON'T retain their value as much over time. RUST can never be measured or figured into the equation and I am talking internal corosion . How do you really tell ? I think newer frames are a main reason that older frames depreciate. Unlike anything else unless its a collectors item.
I know of the frame your talking about and if it was me I'd have to think really hard to compare the price of your frame as opposed to what I could buy a new steel frame for. I don't care if its lugged or tigged as it was stated before unless I care about the lugged look I won't be able to tell the difference in the ride. Best of luck in your sale and sorry that in my opinion an old Sachs is not worth that much to me. I'd rather have a new Sachs made for me but thats another story .

[Serotta PETE]

Value is in the eyes of the beholder-and it really depends a lot on what the buyer feels value is to them. All the items you mentioned fall under this.

Age of bike has some relative bearing on it - but age can also add value if it is from a certain deson period. Key is how was the bike cared for. Example the inside tubes could be rusty from conditions and the years exposed it.

Whether it be a SACHS or Serotta, or Weigle, etc.....age does matter.

Refurbishing is also not a right/wrong decision. Was it fixed because of use, accident, scratches? Who did refurbishing? If it was John Bell for SACHS or Serotta for Serotta my answer would be "It does not subtract value but in many cases could add value"

Miles on steel frame could affect value - - - but you have to give the seller a mark for integrity if he says high miles for a refurbished bike. (for buyer would have no way of knowing). If JB or Serotta do the frame refurb - it is very hard to tell from new (except for lugsstyle, fork type/style, down tube connections etc......)

BOTTOM LINE - - a frame is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it (and that a buyer is willing to sell for).

Value can change over time but still is dictated by supply and demand. Value goes up as demand increases. Many times I sell something cheaper because it is of no value to me at time (and my time is worth something). At other times I just leave it sit in the basement for the price I was offered was sooo low. Had a bike that I was offered $300 for. In my view it should sell for about 800-1000. (I still have bike for no one else offered anything nor did they bid on it) It was a Serotta CR steel. refurbished, low miles and 8 speed

Sorry that I did not have a right or wrond answer. PETE

[TheDon]

Hey guys, thanks for the input. Keep going! I think this is a very interesting topic outside of my personal interest. Obviously there are a lot of "intagibles" and differences in my particular case. If nothing else, this could lower my expectations as to what a fair price for the frame is and that is a good thing as I am not trying to rip a buyer off. Although with the idea of supply and demand, that would raise the value of a Sachs considering the current wait time. Quality of the refurbish absolutely has an impact in my view and the "comparison frame" was done right by Richard himself. However, I am a person that prefers as much of an "original" as possible. In this particular case, what caused the frame to need to be refurbished? If the frame is in original practically off the shelf shape, how would that not be "more valuable" than a refurbished frame?
Just a few questions to help stir the conversation.
Don

[Dekonick]

it depends. I will never sell my first Serotta - Period. The pleasure that bike brought me and the associated memories make it a keeper for life. Would anyone else feel the same way about 'my' bike?

Doubtful.

[Kevan]

With Calfee offering warrants up to 25 years on their frames...

what's to worry? :D

[alembical]

I would worry about either (1) the warranty not be transferrable, or (2) the value of the warranty when the frame is replaced after it failed catastrophically during a 50 mph decent.

Alembical

[bostondrunk]

1. less
2. less
3. less

I'll offer a simpler answer than those above.....
You have a used steel frame. It happens to say Sachs on it. Whooppee..
It is a used steel frame. It is worth a lot less than new. Want to know the true value of it? Check past auctions on ebay, or ads on deja...
No one pays more money for a used frame unless they really like chocolate swirl cheesecake.

[Kevan]

the manufacturer's confidence in his product by offering such a lengthy warranty to such a "supposedly" fatigable material. Certainly though, if a warranty were transferable that too would support added value in any frame's resale. Calfee offers tranference only after an inspection and fee. Lastly, no warranty is going to replace a crashed/totaled frame when the material and production wasn't at fault, maybe offer a discount for replacement, but that's it. Any replaced frame begins at square one, if I read your comment right.

[bostondrunk]

Kevan,

didn't you know that unless a frameset is made of steel, weighs too much and is too big, that it is worthless and bound to 'catastrophilagistically' fail?!?!!!! :bike:

[OldDog]

As Pete says, value is in the eye of the beholder.

If you are the documented original owner and if it only has 150 miles on it and if it was refurbished and inspected by Ritchie/JB and deemed good as new, and if it was a 53, I'd try to get you down to $1200 thereabouts. To me that would be a great deal for great 19 year old bike. Collectors value? Only if you are into that kind of stuff I guess, I'm not. I dig great old bikes.

My Sachs is priceless to me, an anniversary gift from my wife. What says "I love you, now go ride your bike and get out of my hair" more than that? :D

I own or have within the family, a number of 50th year Paramounts with the gold plated forks. For these we asked $1100.00. No takers. However to us, they are worth the asking price and we will keep them before letting them go for a sneeze. We see a value in them no one else seems to.

Good luck to you.

[Kevan]

uh-huh! :D

[Andreu]

I asked a similar question a while back. Basically asking whether there is a collectable cycle frame...I didn't get any concrete answers which suggests that the cycle frame collecting market is not developed enough. Wait another 50 to 150 years and then prices may change but at the moment I would tend to agree with the drunk from Boston.
A

[djg]

The markets for bikes as collectibles is small but real and I don't have any expertise in that area. In the case of Sachs, of course, we're talking about a living, breathing, and still productive builder, so as excellent as these frames may be, I'd be wary of "investing" in "collector's value" in this case (although, again, consult elsewhere for any genuine expertise if this is a form of investment that you find attractive for some reason or another).

As for the rider's market:

Bikes and frames tend to lose substantial value "off-the-lot" and tend to be further devalued with age. Why would they lose value trading hands independent of how much or even whether they've been ridden? Well, in the case of Sachs, a used buyer doesn't really get to choose color (apart from sending it off for a repaint) but, more important, doesn't get to have tube selection and geometry worked out for him or herself by one of the country's most highly regarded frame builders. Perhaps most important: JUST BECAUSE. Above and beyond the factors mentioned ( and warranty issues, etc.) is the simple fact that most folks--and it's a big overwhelming most here--perfer new ones and will pay more for one hot off the rack (or out of the workshop) than they will for a used (or "pre-owned") model. This makes for a substantial market difference. And even those who care less than the typical buyers driving the market are liable to care about how the market works. Hence, for example, I might care a bit, but not all that much, about three years of ownership and 200 miles of use, on what is obviously a mint condition frame, but I'll be darned if I'll buy it at a mere 10% discount over the new price. I might be willing to pay a bit over market (hence the "eye of the buyer" value and the possibility of "winning" it on, e.g., e-bay), but only up to a point.

The rate or magnitude of devaluation may be pretty variable (the used fine bike market is small, and variance around "market" values may be substantial), but I would expect used ones (even lightly used ones) to go for much less than new and I would expect older ones (especially those built from older generation tube sets) to go for less still. So that's a clear "yes" for (1) and (3), although, as has been mentioned already, mileage can be pretty hard to verify. As for (2), I'm with the "it depends" people. Depends on what was done, by whom, the odds that the work might or might not mask significant frame damage, etc.

[MartyE]

. . .
No one pays more money for a used frame unless they are a complete idiot.
Or a collector. check the prices for Herse, Singer, Confente or
even california Masi frames. Significantly higher than the original selling
price.

Marty

[TheDon]

Boston, What is "deja"? Further, you may have oversimplified the fact that it is a Richard Sachs. We aren't talking about a steel frame made in Taiwan in the 80's here. So "Whoopee" is an insult to the man's art and product, fyi.

If I learned anything in school, it's "do your homework!"
Repeatedly hearing this from teachers and mother helped cement it.

Any idea what a "new" Sachs is going for?
Don

[alembical]

Drunk,
I personally would feel more comfortable buying a five-year old metal bike than I would buying a five-year old carbon bike. That is just my opinion, and maybe it is founded in fear of that "catastrophic brakes" that are rumored as a problem with carbon (but as this tour shows can also happen with metal bars). I guess that I just fell more comfortable in checking over the steel, AL, or Ti for cracks and alingement issues than I do looking over the Carbon, which I have much less familiarity with.

Alembical

[Ken Robb]

a very similar frame/fork, headset just sold on eBay for $960. I asked Mr. Sachs about spreading the stays on it to 130mm and he said it was a bad idea. I would much rather have a new Sachs than an old one. His skill and available materials have surely improved over the years. I have one beautiful 1981 bike with new JB paint and Nuovo Record 7 spd group. It's neat and fun to ride for a change but I would trade it in a second for a new Sach with 9 or 10 spd group.

[TheDon]

Ken_I find it interesting that Richard told you that spreading to 130 was a bad idea since Richard told my pops that it was fine to do that and even recommended a shop that would do it for us. eRichie...can you clarify fo rthe record?
Confused...
Don

[Andreu]

At last some names....so there is a collectors market!
A :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

bostondrunk-issimo stated:
"I'll offer a simpler answer than those above.....
You have a used steel frame. It happens to say Sachs on it. Whooppee..
It is a used steel frame. It is worth a lot less than new. Want to know the true value of it? Check past auctions on ebay, or ads on deja...
No one pays more money for a used frame unless they are a complete idiot."



i think that is narrow-minded. people routinely pay over the top
money for used mechanical watches, fretted instruments, out of
print books, etcetera. just because a used bicycle may be outside
of the lines of your sensibilities, don't assume it hasn't a high value
for others.
e-RICHIE

:confused: :confused: :confused:
:confused: :confused: :confused:
:confused: :confused: :confused:

arrange disorder

[TheDon]

Oh yeah, how much for the a new Richard Sachs these days? I hear wait time is over 16 months...

[Ken Robb]

how can I clarify Richie said "spreading the stays on the 126mm frame that was on eBay was a bad idea"?

[e-RICHIE]

TheDon-issimo asked:
"I find it interesting that Richard told you that spreading to 130 was a bad idea since Richard told my pops that it was fine to do that and even recommended a shop that would do it for us. eRichie...can you clarify fo rthe record?"

1) who are "you"?
2) who is "pops"?
3) i never said that to anyone.
4) i tell folks how i feel about the operation, (see the past
two days worth of CR list archives...), tell them how much i
charge for the labor, and then - sometimes they leave - and
sometimes they leave after they write a check.
e-RICHIE

ps


:confused: :confused: :confused:
:confused: :confused: :confused:
:confused: :confused: :confused:

arrange disorder

[bostondrunk]

Ritchiiiiie....
Nothing personal, I'm sure you are very good at what you do. I just feel that there are very few people out there that value a used, old, steel frame more than a new one, regardless of whether it is a Serotta, Vanilla, chocolate, a tiger stripe, a Rossin or a norco.
Yes, maybe in several years, once inflation has raised the price of steel frames to 12k, people will then pay 3k for a used sachs frameset, and the owner can claim he sold it for more than he paid new 20 years before......

Wow, maybe I am completely wrong!! But when is the last time a steel frameset that was less than, say, 15 years old, sell for more than its original price?? (OK, not including TDF winning team bikes, etc....)

Then again, anyone who is willing to pay over 2k for a steel frame and wait two years for delivery, probably thinks a lot differently than me anyway.........................

[TheDon]

Is the man "eRichie" actually Richard Sachs? (I got the feeling he is)

Ken, I believe you that he said that, I am wondering the details of the good/bad idea answer. I was hoping that if e-Richie was Richard, he could clarify. I wasn't asking you to clarify or prove he said it.

Further, the "comparison frame" I mentioned earlier in the thread was the one on eBay that you just mentioned. In fact, that frame was the one that sparked this little debate. I feel that the frame from eBay went below market value and based on differences bewteen the two doesn't neccesarily reflect market value. Especially considering that size is very important to the buyer/demand side of the equation and that there were some other very distinct differences being mileage, refurbishing, color scheme, etc.

Don

[e-RICHIE]

bd axed:
"Wow, maybe I am completely wrong!! But when is the last time a steel frameset that was less than, say, 15 years old, sell for more than its original price??"


the frame in question on ebay is about 20 years old. in 1984
my frames were, say - about $650. need i say more?
some people are not buying these bicycles because they are
"worth it" - they are buying it because these are timeline
articles that define where someone "was" 10 years into
the gig. i.e., no one expects these 20 year old bicycles to
rival the quality of modern units...
e-RICHIE

ps

:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:

arrange disorder

[bostondrunk]

oh, and deja is www.deja.com
you can search old for sale ads from the rec.bicycles.marketplace newsgroup going back like 15 years.

[TheDon]

e-Richie:
1. I am Don Ceppi, 27 year old son of "pops" (see #2) handling sale of frame
2. "Pops" is Nick Ceppi, dad of Don who bought this frame from you many years ago (1983/1984) and called (several months ago) you to ask you about the frame and you directed him towards Wilton Outdoor Center to do the spread. Please elaborate on the issues regarding converting a 126 to a 130.
3/4. I wasn't questioning your integrity I was curious as to the mixed message. (Please see several posts up where I defend your integrity and skill)
Don

[bostondrunk]

I suppose. I know I'd like to have a rusted 20 year old bike hanging on my wall. Especially if I could pay more than retail for it.....



bd axed:
"Wow, maybe I am completely wrong!! But when is the last time a steel frameset that was less than, say, 15 years old, sell for more than its original price??"


the frame in question on ebay is about 20 years old. in 1984
my frames were, say - about $650. need i say more?
some people are not buying these bicycles because they are
"worth it" - they are buying it because these are timeline
articles that define where someone "was" 10 years into
the gig. i.e., no one expects these 20 year old bicycles to
rival the quality of modern units...
e-RICHIE

ps

:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:

arrange disorder

[e-RICHIE]

TheDon,
http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous

follow the link above to the CR list archives and do a search
in the last two days. the "...spreading the rear triangle crap"
has been debated nauseum, mostly under the "frame integrity"
thread. read it.
your dad called last year about the 20 year old frame. we had
the same conversation i stated in text above: yeah-it's not a great
idea. it's not my bag and i charge this much. yeah-any shop can
leanon it.

e-RICHIE

ps


:cool: :) :)
:) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: ;) ;)

arrange disorder

[bostondrunk]

Its not your bag? Is it normal for framebuilders to not want to offer work on their own frames for a half reasonable fee?

Man, I definetily entered the wrong career path way back....

[e-RICHIE]

bd
i get paid for advice - and it's based on experience.
why should i tell someone to do something on their
bicycle that i believe to be a bad idea? if my advice
doesn't resonate with the inquirer, sometimes i still
do it "for the money...".
e-RICHIE

ps

:butt: :butt: :butt:
:butt: :butt: :butt:
:butt: :butt: :butt:

arrange disorder

[Andreu]

I wonder how much a Pinarello Dogma Ego (Price: $16250.00) will be worth in 20 years time?
A

[TheDon]

e-Richie,
Thanks for the link, it was quite helpful to see the long list of different opinions expressed in that thread of messages. It cleared up the most confusion for me on the issue of spreading from 126 to 130.
Glad to see you remember the family name. I appreciate your input into this since you are the builder of the frame in question.
The insight from everyone except that drunk guy from Boston has been helpful and I appreciate it. All will be taken into consideration in my future negotiations on the sale.
T'anks,
Don

[vaxn8r]

People like Merkx's right?

I have a 19 year old one I'll sell right now for say, $1,000. I'll even include some vintage Shimano 600 parts which could make it worth even more but I'll just throw those in.

Expecting a flood of e-mails in the next 5 minutes.....

[OldDog]

vax,

Toss in your 19 year old riding shorts and ya got a deal :p

[Andreu]

What was it worth 20 years ago?

[timto]

BD - you totally load your responses and it is lame and tiring. I for one, love vintage bicycles and can appreciate a bike beyond its use as a tool. I'd love to put together an 86 vintage lugged full c-record delta bike together and NOT RIDE IT MUCH simply because it was a bike I always wanted when I was a kid but couldn't afford. Is there a good, rational reason for it? Nopers.

You don't appreciate it but feel the need to mock. Your right to your pov I suppose - even if it is expressed in what I read as a contrarian and snide way - and perhaps that is just the way I'm reading it.

I guess I'll shut up now as it is apparent I can be an ass too ... after all I do realize I'm dumping on a guy for dumping on a guy for...well you know.

Cheerio.

PS - that 20 year old junker won't be a rusty one...

Tim

[vaxn8r]

What was it worth or what did it cost? Now that's the real question here isn't it?

Heh...

[dcotcamp]

I'm the guy who just bought the 22 year old Sachs frame on ebay. I personally feel like I got quite a deal. This will be my third Sachs (I have recent road and cyclocross bikes), and as Richard says, I'm curious to see for myself how this one compares to the newer ones.

Of course it -always- comes down to what something like this is worth -to the buyer-. For me, this frame is easily worth more than anything new that I could get for $1000. The issue of 126 v 130mm rear spacing wasn't an issue at all for me.

Dennis

[TheDon]

Dennis,
I thought you got a great deal as well, which pretty much caused this thread to come into existence. CHEERS to you for a great score. Enjoy that Sachs. I was able to ride the one I am selling a few times growing up but have since out grown it at a height of 6'6". It was the untouchable Ferrari in my dad's small stable of fine machines.
Enjoy!
Don

[Serotta PETE]

Hey "lets chill". No matter if it is a bike, motorcycle, watch. or china.....The market (buyers) pretty much sets the price of a sale. (DEMAND vs SUPPLY)

The seller has a choice of selling or not selling. ( and I have chosen at times to not sell). At certain times of year it seems used bicycles and components are worth more. (Fed-april have worked the best for me.) I do not know why.

Sachs and Serotta are great bikes but not all appreciate them to the same $$ amount. (has nothing to do with what a new one cost.) I personally would rather have a new one - that has been designed and built for me. (Did not even consider a used one).

This is neither right nor wrong, it just is how I decide to spend my disposable income.

Just think how I felt when someone offered my $300. (It is even someone I ride with). I politely told him no and that this is the figure (800) that I felt was more than fare. We just agreed that our view of value was different.

I am "wandering" on this note FOR THE MAIN PURPOSE of note was to say "Please let's not attack each other or Richard. One pays for his (RICHIE) knowledge, experience, and SKILLS! If those are not as important as the $$s spent - then "move on" because many of id do see the value!

Thanks for listening/reading

[scottcw]

I'm the guy who just bought the 22 year old Sachs frame on ebay. I personally feel like I got quite a deal. This will be my third Sachs (I have recent road and cyclocross bikes), and as Richard says, I'm curious to see for myself how this one compares to the newer ones.

Of course it -always- comes down to what something like this is worth -to the buyer-. For me, this frame is easily worth more than anything new that I could get for $1000. The issue of 126 v 130mm rear spacing wasn't an issue at all for me.

Dennis

I was the only other bidder.

[SPOKE]

ebay is a great tool for determining the "market" value of just about anything. as for mass produced bikes/frames it is a very good tool for determining value. it is also good for determining the value of "specialty/custom" frames from well know builders such as Richard Sachs, Serotta, & many others. what i have found interesting is that the frames from lesser known builders usually go for far less than i believe they should. a recent example of this is a wonderful frame built by Peter Weigle sold for $600. it was only about 2 years old and was in nearly new condition. Peter builds terrific bikes with beautiful detailing. too bad it wasn't my size or it would have been in the collection.

[dbrk]

Congratulations to Dennis on acquiring this beautiful bike and to Don for letting it go to a good home. I think Dr. Cotcamp got himself a bargain. In pure ride quality a Sachs has only peers. I don't care if it was made 20 years ago or yesterday, that would still be true. I think I can say that from experience without hyperbole. I have a few Sachs, including one from this same "Super Record" era. The ride is as stellar as the meticulous level of craft and elegance it sustains after all these years. How many bikes endure such scrutiny? Very few, very, very few.

I don't think much about what a given bike will be worth in years to come but primarily what it is worth to me now, for the ride, for the passion it evokes. I think alot about what makes a bicycle genuinely special or worth something to me. Sometimes it's the detail and meticulous beauty of the frame construction (like Sachs, Goodrich/Rivendell, Starck/Rivendell, or Kirk); sometimes there is something to the whole bike that transcends the frame, such as the constructeur bikes of Alex Singer (E. Csuka) or Mariposa (Mike Barry). Sometimes its an aesthetic that matches the ride, like Serotta's beautiful tubesets. But what sets these bikes apart is the passion they all evoke; different passions but something that transcends the notion that a bike is a mere tool or an instrument of exercise. Bikes don't need to cost alot to have that brilliance but sometimes they do. It's all a matter of values. The important thing is only to know what you value.

Nice going, Dennis. I hope to see this one someday.

dbrk

[Andreu]

What was it worth or what did it cost? Now that's the real question here isn't it?

Heh...
I suppose it was worth a lot to you!
Back to my point a few weeks ago about knowing the price of things but not the value! From my piont of view (I think DBRK mentions this too somewhere) some of the lowest monetary value objects mean the most to me (i.e. worth the most).
Collecting is something people do and enjoy.
I´d probably collect frames if I had the money and space.
A :beer:

[bostondrunk]

thedon & timto,

sorry if I offended you. But the original question was someone asking if a frame was worth more used than new. I gave my opinion. I also gave my opinion on what I thought was a rude and 'quick' response from our resident framebuilder in this thread. So I gave my opinions, and maybe gave a smart response to the builder who I believe charges a ridiculous amount of money and then makes people wait over a year. Its just my opinion, and if you choose to purchase one of these, thats great, your choice.

[va rider]

heck, my next frame will be an e-Richie. I would wait a year, two, three, whatever it takes.

There are not a whole lot of people that get the opportunity to ride an e-Richie. I certainly would like to be one of them.

[Andreu]

"In this day and age of Ti and Carbon frames I think steel frames in general DON'T retain their value as much over time." SMILEY
More C and Ti -- Won´t this actually mean that there will be less steel frames? The steel that is left in good condition and sought after in a few years time will be worth even more money! I am thinking in the long term here.

A

[scottcw]

Regardless of the value of a 20+ yr. old frame compared to new, this is the comparison that was being discussed...

2 20+ yr. old frames.
1 with 150 miles on it, original paint job.
1 with more miles (forget the exact number), refurbished by Richard, repainted by Joe Bell.

I maintain that the refurbished frame is actually worth more because it has been checked out by Richard and there are assurances of structural integrity, no rust, dings, dents, etc. plus a new paint job by Joe Bell. The untouched frame may have structural issues, rust, or other issues.

[Andreu]

Surely the original with only 150 miles.
I guess the original with 150 miles left outside will have some tell-tale marks on it of neglect which will effect value. But if it was in good nick......?
My guess is that true collectors want the real McCoy. They want authenticity don´t they? This is different to a structurally sound frame.
A

[bostondrunk]

This guy will definetily get my business for my next custom steel bike:
http://www.llewellynbikes.com/main.htm

Gorgeous, and I don't care what it'll be worth in 20 years, cause I'll ride the s#$% out of it!! :beer:

[cpg]

The boston drunk stated-
So I gave my opinions, and maybe gave a smart response to the builder who I believe charges a ridiculous amount of money and then makes people wait over a year.

To which I reply-
If a builder charges say $2500 for a frame and fork with a materials cost $200-$300, paint costs at $400 plus 20 hours of labor to build, does this seem to be a riduculous amount of profit? Oh yeah, there's operational costs like utilities, consumable materials (silver, brass, flux, gas, etc) and insurance which eat into that ridiculous amount of money. I don't think it takes a math genius to see that nobody's getting rich building frames. Of course, I might be wrong but I doubt it.

[Roy E. Munson]

Whatever is said about Richard Sachs frames, he's a relatively small builder who throws his full support behind a race team, and he can be seen all season at the cross races supporting his team and getting into the mix himself. That, to me, says volumes about the guy.

[bostondrunk]

cpg,
If he is getting rich building frames, then I'm sincerely happy for him. I wasn't talking about that.
How is it that a shop like Marinoni, or Basso, who builds everything by hand, can build a lugged steel frame, for roughly $600 US? Given the costs that you listed, that is..

[va rider]

Here is a guy building ridicously sweet frames. And the guy takes the time to find out about you and your riding. He builds 'em right, well, at least according to Bicycling Magazine and many of the experienced posters on this forum. He also expends alot of time contributing on and off-line to the bicycling community. He writes extensively and often takes time to post or help forum members out.

http://www.richardsachs.com/

Hey, I would eagerly buy a used Sachs in the 57/58 range with 56, 57 tt.

(okay, I admit I'm a Sach's groupie. Can you blame me?)

[e-RICHIE]

thank you all - most of you - for the many props.
i've been on this board since, i think, 2000/2001.
kahuna tightened up through the years, turned it into
an loosely knit owners group type "thing", and then
it was absorbed by ben and company.
i'm here as a fun diversion to the daily routine - not
unlike each of you. i've walked a tight line and tried
not to cross over it into the commercial spiel (sp) but
sometimes the subject matter is just too close to home
and gets under my skin. to wit, i don't know why bd has
to have the opinion of my work that he sends over in his
posts. to compare what i do to buiders that make thousands
of frames annually with the hands of large staffs of people
shows me that he is not tuned in.
bd - with all due respect, don't ask me to account for myself
on this board. it's hardly the correct venue.
e-RICHIE
who is still trying to figure out which of my posts
prompted bd to write these words:
"I also gave my opinion on what I thought was a rude and
'quick' response from our resident framebuilder in this thread."

ps

:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:

arrange disorder

[bostondrunk]

Apologies. I'm not asking you to account for yourself.

[e-RICHIE]

word up

[cpg]

cpg,
If he is getting rich building frames, then I'm sincerely happy for him. I wasn't talking about that.
How is it that a shop like Marinoni, or Basso, who builds everything by hand, can build a lugged steel frame, for roughly $600 US? Given the costs that you listed, that is..

You're comparing apples to oranges. The bikes that you've chosen for examples are mass produced by large teams of workers. Generally shops like this are able produce frames in well under 8 hours and the quality of workmanship is quite evident. To call them hand made is a bit of a stretch. Every frame is made by hand. It takes hands to load automatic mitering machines, seat tube reamer/slotters, etc. But compare that to a one person operation or even a limited production setting like Serotta and you'll see big differences. So to answer your question, they can build frames so cheaply because they buy materials in large quantities thereby incurring a savings but mostly they have very little tied up in labor costs and they produce large quantities of frames which allows for lower margins. All of this is fine if you want a fine tool like frame but if you want more then you have to spend more. Of course I might be wrong but I doubt it.

[scottcw]

Where is Rivendell in the continuum between mass produced and one-man shop? how do their frames compare to a Sachs?

[dbrk]

All Rivendells are designed, as they have been from the outset by Grant Petersen (former product manager of Bstone, as most everyone knows).
Who has built them and who builds them now is a story.

There are two "levels" of Rivendell nowadays, three really. First, there are the custom bikes made by Curt Goodrich (I will return to this...). Custom frames used to be made also by Joe Starck but that relationship ended about two years back. Next, there are the bikes made by the six man shop in Osaka called Toyo. These are every bit as nice as _any_ small production company, including our deeply appreciated Serottas. The paint on these bikes is not up to Serotta, imho, but it is excellent; the workmanship is every bit as good. They make the Rambouillet and Atlantis and the incoming Saluki 650B frame and fork. They make the Romulus too. The third level consists of Quickbeam which is made in Japan by National aka Panasonic. These are beautifully made too but the lugs are simpler and since they come mostly built, they meant to meet a pricepoint. It may be the case that the new Wilbury and Glorius city bikes are made by National too, but I could be wrong about that.

There is a history to the production of Rivendells. The first bikes were all made by Waterford. Production was briefly taken over by the match bicycle company (Tim Issac, Curt Goodrich, Martin Tweedy, Steve Hampsten, and other true luminaries...) while custom bikes were done as well by Joe Starck. When match operations ended, Joe and Curt built all the customs as a "second" line (beginning with the first Atlantis then the Rambouillet) was taken up by the Toyo shop (Toyo has made most of the Ritchey road bikes, btw, inasmuch as they do the majority work and the frames are finished off here in California...).

I have a few of the Waterford era bikes including three with the Richard Sach's designed "Pappillion" lugs from around 1996/7. I also have two frames built by Joe Starck, both with custom lugs and two built by Curt Goodrich.
Joe's and Curt's work is every bit the match of _any_ custom, one-man shop builder. The level of finish, detail, and refinement is unsurpassed. Joe is no longer building but Curt's work _must_ place him among the most gifted craftsman building today. There are many great builders nowadays---it is Dickensonian, the best and worst of times---but few actually go to the true lengths of _refinement_ and _detail_ that we see in Goodrich or in Sachs. Goodrich's own bikes are magnificent efforts but he is happy building Rivendells and has contributed a host of fine innovations. Curt is also the builder of the forks on at least three of my Serottas: two Atlantas and my custom CSi. Because Rivendells are JB-painted they look as good as a Sachs, and that's saying, well, everything.

dbrk

[vaxn8r]

This thread is way too long but it is intriguing and brought a couple of questions to mind.

What goes into the "value" of a Sachs, Rivendell, Kirk etc? I think I already know but am curious what others think. Here goes...

1. The idea that the bike is made for you and you alone. Special tubesets, specifically butted and with proper stiffness for your weight and riding style.
2. Personal attention to the fitting process. Perfect fit.
3. Paint ought to be perfect and exactly what you want....or at least unique, not one of many just like it.
4. Interaction between builder and customer. Maybe several phone calls to clarify each of the above steps. Maybe a personal visit or two to the shop


I have never had any of those things. First of all, I've never felt the need, as I always fit really well on a stock 56 frame. The closest I've come is with Calfee, but it's not like I spoke with Craig. He had an intermediary and well, that didn't work out too well in my first attempt but it should have and it still was a fun process to go through. I did not mind waiting because I knew what I wanted, I wanted it my way and I was willing to wait.

I totally respect what e-Richie does, David Kirk, Sacha White, Tom Kellog and many others. These bikes are more than bikes really. They are passion. I guess if you looked at everything on a spectrum (no pun intended) you put those bikes on one end, Serotta down a notch, only because you deal with middlemen and LBS's, builder's like Davidson, Steelman, Della Santo, John Slawta all right in there (actually we all know guys to throw right in there. Seven belongs somwhere in there with Moots and IF maybe up or down. Then Merlin/Litespeed. Way on the other end of the spectrum I'd place Trek and Cannondale. I'd lump almost anything from Europe down on this side as well. One could argue which bikes are better or worse. But let's face it. The Treks/C-Dales and much of what comes out of Europe are tools for the job. Great tools but they don't necessarily give you that special something extra. The passion is not there. These bikes are made in assembly lines (not that there's anything wrong with that) and there are hundreds or even thousands just like yours. It's just a bike to ride, even if it is a very very good bike...like my Trek and C-Dale.

Anyway, just rambling on now. But wouldn't it be fun to draw a long line and have people rate where their bike ought to lie on the spectrum of "passion" at one end and "tool" on the other?

[Ahneida Ride]

Gee. I wonder what E-Richie is paying for overhead ???

Machinary, Tools, Insurance, Electricity, Welding Equipment,
Medical Insurance, Comunications, Property Taxes ....

These items are not vaporware. Factor them in and then ask the
question.

I'm sure Uncle Ben also has a nightmare with these items.

[Tom Byrnes]

I have a 1979 Richard Sachs. I bought the frame and fork on eBay. I contacted e-Richie, who quickly gave me the history of the bike. I had it built up with downtube shifters and a lugged Rivendell Nitto stem. The original Joe Bell paint job is still surprisingly quite beautiful. It is an amazing looking and riding bike.

However, as much as I love the ride of my Sachs, I have often wondered whether there is a marked difference between my 1979 bike and a newer Sachs. I figured that if a 1979 Sachs rides so well, think what a new Sachs must ride like. Seems logical. I always assumed that the newer building materials and e-Richie's continually evolving base of knowledge would necessarily result in continually improved bike frames. However, I have never had the opportunity to compare my bike with a new Sachs.

Enter our esteemed DBRK. Douglas rode my Sachs on his recent trip to L.A. and said that the ride was remarkable similar to the ride of his new Sachs. He even asked me if I wanted to sell the bike. ("No"). What does that say about the "value' of a twenty five year old Sachs?! In the eyes of the beholder, etc., etc.

One of these days, I'll be able to make the comparison for myself. In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy my old, hopefully-not rusty, "heavy" steel Sachs.
:) :) :)
:D :D :D
;) ;) ;)