Raising the lactate threshold

[Floyd Dakil]

What duration do you guys use for lactate threshold workouts? I find that about 60 minutes works for me. Coming from a runner's background, I was used to doing tempo runs for 25 minutes (at about 10 secs/mile slower than 10k race pace). This workout was popularized in the late 60s/early 70s by running guru Jack Daniels. It's now a bread-and-butter workout for just about any serious runner.

I've been cycling for four years, but I'm still wondering if there's a standard duration for training at one's lactate threshold? I have been using one hour, which initially seemed like it would be too long, since runners use 25 minutes. But I can sustain a comparable effort on a bike for one hour; after that my legs are burning.

[regularguy412]

I think it's better to do a series of intervals - at , or slipping slightly above, your normal LT. For example, I like to do a series of 3 minute 'on', 2 minute 'off' intervals, during which my heart rate rises to just above my LT during the last minute of the 'on' phase. The 2 minute phase provides incomplete recovery -- this part is essential in raising the threshold. Early in the season, around mid-February, I will start doing these once or twice per week -- with at least one day of 'junk mileage' in between. I'll start with 3 sets of '3 on, 2 off' and work up to about 8 or 9 sets. When you combine 9, 5 minute sets with the warm up and cool down, you get an hour of work. That's usually enough for me. By the time I get up to where I can do 9 in a row, it's late March and time to go outside and work on improving base miles ( which I hope haven't totally disappeared by riding only 4 days per week since November).

I prefer to do structured workouts indoors on the trainer. Then I can go outside and put the improved LT into use in longer, time trial-type rides.

Mike in AR

[swoop]

i don't tend to go into threshold for any duration until i'm in a build phase..and my longest threshold intervals are 20-30 minutes.


but my longest threshold endurance ride is 5 hours.

so for me its between 20 minutes and 5 hours depending on where i am in build. here's a piece of build 2 .... just as an example.

[Floyd Dakil]

I'm no expert on endurance training, but it seems to me that you are describing a different workout than I am. Not to to split hairs, but the type of workout I'm describing is the "maximum lactate steady state." This type of sustained pace is very effective at raising your lactate threshold, and it would support the more intense efforts that are often labeled interval training.

Again, I'm no expert. So please accept my apologies if I sound like I want to come across that way. But from my layman's understanding, a series of intervals consisting of three minutes on/two minutes off would need to be done considerably above your LT threshold to have a significant training effect.

If you're training at slightly above LT for three minutes and then resting for two minutes, you might be at LT for only half of that five minute cycle, since it takes time for you to return to LT after two minutes of rest. (Compare that with 30-50 mins. of constant cycling at LT.)

On the other hand, I could see doing maybe three or four 12-minute intervals at LT pace with a four-minute rest between each one. That way, you are doing a substantial amount of work at LT. (This would equate to "cruise intervals" for runners.)

Whenever I do intervals on a bike as short as three minutes, I'm generally working at 95 percent of maximum effort.

Maybe you and I have different views of the Lactate Threshold effort. In running, the effort is considered to be hard but not so hard that you have to struggle to maintain the same pace in the second half of the run as you did in the first half. Any burning feeling in your legs and lungs should happen towards the end. Otherwise, you've run harder than necessary to get the desired effect. And given the risk of injury from overtraining, a runner generally wants to do the minimum work to achieve the desired training effect.

[Fat Robert]

I think of threshold as within 10 beats of LTHR (for me, 143-153), or a power output of 90% of my avg power for an all-out 30min TT.

I'm the anti-swoop. I don't do any ride longer than an hour these days, haven't since June.

I've found that I can do 4-5 days a week where I do a 15 minute warm up, hit 20-30 minutes hard, then cool down, and hit my watt target for the hard stuff (300-340w) each time. the key is taking enough rest (two complete days of rest each week) and to keep the amount of threshold time down to 20-30 min each workout.

My 10Mi TT times have been consistently fast (for me) for four months of doing it like this. I could do a good crit, but obviously, I couldn't ride a 40 mile circuit race....

there's a forumla -- TSS (training stress score) you can use to track this crap with a powermeter. Its possible to go low-quantity/high quality and not burn out or screw yourself up, but you need to be able to measure the "stress dose" carefully and then get adequate recovery.

[swoop]

this is to get fitness for doing multiple crits in a day or to keep up in a road race. i find the broader base the sharper peak... and for years its worked great... (just started having issues last year). and i tend to ride breaks rather than sit in... so i need the form.

but it's a commitment and on the extreme end. masters out here train like freaking pros and they tend to be better athletes than i am. there's dozens and dozens of guys that are high caliber...so.. its really keeping up with them in the absense of any natural talent. its not 5 strong guys to look out for.. its 30.

once racing starts the schedule gets massively reduced to one effort a week and short recovery rides. all that winter work pays off.

a lot of fitness comes from long threshold rides so long as you've built up to it.

the other way is to train for an hour a day at race effort with rest days in between.. short sharp and focused. that's fine too. the longer rides suit my personality.

there's a lot of different ways!

[regularguy412]

Yes. It seems we are coming at this from two different perspectives. I started out as a runner, until I found out (after 3 years) that my body wouldn't tolerate the mileage (injuries). That's how I got into cycling. I ran before the advent of affordable, reliable HR monitors, so I can't really compare how 'my' body and heart rate reacts when running versus cycling.

I guess I made a presumption that you wanted to raise your LT in a short period of time. From my own, anecdotal experience, one can raise the LT by doing short hard intervals with incomplete recovery in a shorter period of time, compared to doing long, steady-state time trial-type workouts. What I'm trying to accomplish with this type of workout is to train the muscles to clear out the lactate created in the 'on' phase and use it as fuel in the next 'on' phase. Once I get outside, I definitely do the longer type workout in order to stretch the time that the muscles can work at or above LT.

When I do my 3-by-2's, only the first 3 minute 'on' is what would be described as 'low', i.e., not in or above the LT for more than one minute. The second set always starts out higher because of the incomplete recovery. The subsequent 'on' phases are almost always above LT for 2 minutes (or more, by the time I get to the last one). In an hour workout of 3 x 2's, I'm doing approx. 27 minutes near or above LT with incomplete recovery in between. My on-bike max HR is approx. 182 bpm. From the 2nd 'on' phase through the last, my HR is anywhere from 151 to 160 for the last 2 minutes of each 3 minute period. That's 83 to 88 percent of my max. You have probably already noted that your biking vs. running HR's are different,, with the running HR being higher.

From my experience, it's pretty difficult to hold an 88 percent effort solidly for an hour and I applaud those who do it. Even though I have done it, it's not something I would do on a weekly basis, unless I was specifically working to improve my time trialing ability. I have also noted from my own training that my max HR declines slightly as my fitness improves. I can do the same amount of work at a lower HR ( that's why I increase the number of 3 x 2's, instead of the length or intensity of each interval). I attribute this more to heart stroke volume improvement rather than pure LT increase.

Just for fun, you should try some 3 x 2's at 80 to 90 percent of your max HR and see how it goes. Be sure to use a high cadence, 100 - 110 rpm, so the workout doesn't turn into a weight lifting expedition.

:) :beer:

Mike in AR

[Grant McLean]

this is to get fitness for doing multiple crits in a day or to keep up in a road race. i find the broader base the sharper peak... and for years its worked great... (just started having issues last year). and i tend to ride breaks rather than sit in... so i need the form.

but it's a commitment and on the extreme end. masters out here train like freaking pros and they tend to be better athletes than i am. there's dozens and dozens of guys that are high caliber...so.. its really keeping up with them in the absense of any natural talent. its not 5 strong guys to look out for.. its 30.

once racing starts the schedule gets massively reduced to one effort a week and short recovery rides. all that winter work pays off.

a lot of fitness comes from long threshold rides so long as you've built up to it.

the other way is to train for an hour a day at race effort with rest days in between.. short sharp and focused. that's fine too. the longer rides suit my personality.

there's a lot of different ways!

what? my 3 x short/slow rides per week won't make me fast?
I'm going to have to rethink my program!

:)

-g

[swoop]

what? my 3 x short/slow rides per week won't make me fast?
I'm going to have to rethink my program!

:)

-g


you will be the best at events that require three short slow rides and you will stay sexy. these are both good things.

[cadence231]

1 hr. 1 hr is good for your engine!

[Fixed]

i thought that was in milk
cheers :beer:

[nm87710]

What duration do you guys use for lactate threshold workouts? I find that about 60 minutes works for me. Coming from a runner's background, I was used to doing tempo runs for 25 minutes (at about 10 secs/mile slower than 10k race pace). This workout was popularized in the late 60s/early 70s by running guru Jack Daniels. It's now a bread-and-butter workout for just about any serious runner.

I've been cycling for four years, but I'm still wondering if there's a standard duration for training at one's lactate threshold? I have been using one hour, which initially seemed like it would be too long, since runners use 25 minutes. But I can sustain a comparable effort on a bike for one hour; after that my legs are burning.

Just my 2 cents but IMO you're already on the right track. Train LT if you want to improve it. Anything under 12-15min is training VO2max & anaerobic but not much for LT. 1hr workouts aren't likely to improve your LT as fast as doing structured intervals. Consider this - Minimum of 15 minutes for each interval with a minimum of 30min total in LT range(95-105% of LT HR). Max interval 45min with a maximum total time of 90min. Do a 2-3 sets per week. Start with 2x15' at 95% w/5' rest between. Once that feels "good" go to 3x15, then 2x20, then 3x20, then 2x30 and then try a 45min effort. Now it's time to bump up to ~100% of LT HR. You get the idea - slowly build intensity and effort. After 8 weeks you'll be flying for 1hr+. Good luck. :)

P.S. Better to use power meter for this type of training but HR zones can get the job done.

[Floyd Dakil]

Excellent post. Exactly the type of advice that I was looking for. I think you're right about doing longer intervals instead of a steady one hour effort to increase LT. I also agree with you that anything under 15 mins. enhances Vo2max and anaerobic power. Thanks for a solid recommendation for the next eight weeks. I'll give the structured intervals a shot and report back at the end of that period.