the kendall (florida) bike massacre

[t. swartz]

check it out:
www.miaminewtimes.com/2007-10-25/news/the-kendale-bike-massacre/

[Steve Hampsten]

bummer

i caught the phrases

"informal race"

and

"SUV"

big ouch

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . in Florida. I have a book called "Miles From Nowhere" written over 25 years ago by a couple who were riding their bikes around the world. They rode across deserts, mountains, and dealt with disease, natives attacking, potential robbers--just about you name it. Very interesting book. Anyway, they said that in the whole trip, the absolute worst place they rode on the WHOLE trip was Florida because the drivers were so actively ignorant and hostile and the roads were so bad for cycling.

BBD

[Fixed]

welcome to the jungle baby
cheers

[Blue Jays]

Very tragic narrative. Best wishes for a speedy and full recovery for the riders who crashed.

[J.Greene]

. . . in Florida. I have a book called "Miles From Nowhere" written over 25 years ago by a couple who were riding their bikes around the world. They rode across deserts, mountains, and dealt with disease, natives attacking, potential robbers--just about you name it. Very interesting book. Anyway, they said that in the whole trip, the absolute worst place they rode on the WHOLE trip was Florida because the drivers were so actively ignorant and hostile and the roads were so bad for cycling.
BBD

I find Central FL to be quite nice. The blue heads are back from up north so you need to be a little more careful, but our traffic is pretty good.

JG

[Bill Bove]

Had a guy cross two lanes of traffic at a red light this morning in order to push us off the road with his suv. When last seen he was on his cell phone, looking at a big dent in his hood and one guy in our group had a sore hand.

Like fixed said, welcome to the jungle, baby.

[RABikes2]

. . . in Florida. I have a book called "Miles From Nowhere" written over 25 years ago by a couple who were riding their bikes around the world. They rode across deserts, mountains, and dealt with disease, natives attacking, potential robbers--just about you name it. Very interesting book. Anyway, they said that in the whole trip, the absolute worst place they rode on the WHOLE trip was Florida because the drivers were so actively ignorant and hostile and the roads were so bad for cycling.

BBD
Not a fair statement if contributed to the state as a whole. Most of it, yes, but the entire state? And as Mr. Greene stated, the blue heads are in the state right now ... from up NORTH! You can say thanks any time for taking them out of your hair for a few months! :rolleyes:
RA
Okay, I had to think about it for (only) a few minutes and ... how about the drivers pretty much suck throughout a good bit of the state. That's a bit more accurate, isn't it guys? ;)

[Avispa]

. . . in Florida. I have a book called "Miles From Nowhere" written over 25 years ago by a couple who were riding their bikes around the world. They rode across deserts, mountains, and dealt with disease, natives attacking, potential robbers--just about you name it. Very interesting book. Anyway, they said that in the whole trip, the absolute worst place they rode on the WHOLE trip was Florida because the drivers were so actively ignorant and hostile and the roads were so bad for cycling.

Not to jump on the "beat BBDave" band wagon... But I wonder where the hell did these couple ride in Florida? It's nice to hear when people go "riding around the world..." and they would tell you this area was great, and that area was a disaster! Then, one just finds out that they rode in remote, non urban areas in part of their trips an in urban areas in other occasions.

I mean, I am aware that where I ride down here in SoFlo it ain't riding paradise... But, I surely wouldn't trade it for riding in Latin America, some big cities in Europe or even other parts of the USA. Furthermore, I have learned that many times, is not the place, is how one rides in that place that becomes a problem!

So there! :D

..A..

[Fixed]

i ride in the city everyday hint stay off main roads unless you have a bike lane imho
cheers

[Avispa]

i ride in the city everyday hint stay off main roads unless you have a bike lane imho
cheers

Yeah Fixed, I get you... But those guys in Kendall were riding in a place with a HUGE bike lane and the road was not a main road at all! Again, not to beat on the issue, but had it been more planning and talking to other people like human beings, before hand, I think this would have saved a lot of headaches.

You just don't decide to have a bike race on an open, public road, whether it has bike lanes or not, and NOT expect that there is a great possibility that something terribly wrong could happen.

Cheers bro! ;)

..A..

[Len J]

Yeah Fixed, I get you... But those guys in Kendall were riding in a place with a HUGE bike lane and the road was not a main road at all! Again, not to beat on the issue, but had it been more planning and talking to other people like human beings, before hand, I think this would have saved a lot of headaches.

You just don't decide to have a bike race on an open, public road, whether it has bike lanes or not, and NOT expect that there is a great possibility that something terribly wrong could happen.

Cheers bro! ;)

..A..

woman pulls out without looking in an area known for cycling, on a weekday night that is always full of cyclists, and it's somehow the cyclists fult when she hits them.

Great logic.

Len

[Big Dan]

woman pulls out without looking in an area known for cycling, on a weekday night that is always full of cyclists, and it's somehow the cyclists fult when she hits them.

Great logic.

Len

Well maybe Avispa has been there before. I have.....

:confused:

[Bill Bove]

Many things contributed to that incident.

That is a well traveled bike route.
The riders were riding as a pack at the speed of traffic.
There were cars illegally parked in the bike lane obscuring the drivers view.

The driver claims to have not seen the riders coming. A pack taking an entire lane. Seems pretty hard to miss to me, maybe just misjudged their speed or maybe he really did not see them. If his line of sight was that bad why did he proceed into the lane? If he had pulled blindly into the lane in front of an oncoming eighteen wheeler he would be dead but nobody would be calling for the banning of trucks from roads built for cars.

It seems to me that we tolerate worse and worse driving skills everyday. It's always someone or something elses fault when we drive our car into, over or through something else. We have "no fault" insurence to protect ourselves from our own poor driving. If someone is at fault, make them pay. Our acts would clean up pretty quick when we're faced with paying for that bumper.
Confiscate drunk drivers cars and those of people driving with a revoked license. Make them have to pay for a car that they can't drive. That'll teach 'em. If it has a negative impact on their families maybe they should have put more pressure on them not to continue to drive the family car after they lost their driving PRIVALIGES. That's right, privalige, no where in the constitution does it garuntee anybody the right to drive a car. Especially when they have proven that they are irresonsible behind the wheel.

End of rant.

By the way, I do not drive a car. Don't even have a license, let it expire. If you think riding a bike in South Florida is scary try driving a car! We've got rednecks who think that driving is a contact sport akin to rebounding in basketball, tourist who are looking out their side window for Donald Trumps house instead of their windshields, whiteheads who can't even see their windshields let alone out of them or over their steering wheels for that matter, snowbirds who never drive in New York but come down here and suddenly they're Mario Andretti and of course the normal idiot driver that you have everywhere else. It's a fine mix. One that I want no part of.

[Avispa]

woman pulls out without looking in an area known for cycling, on a weekday night that is always full of cyclists, and it's somehow the cyclists fult when she hits them.

Great logic.

Len

Which logic, yours or the cyclists involved in the wreck? Also, what woman are you talking about? She could have been a visitor, no? And... who would have more to lose? She or the cyclists?

I'd like to know on which paradise you live bro! I mean, just because there are a lot of cyclists on a road that does not mean they are allowed to race or do stupid things on that road!

Love,

..A..

[Avispa]

Many things contributed to that incident....
End of rant.

Bill,

I am clear about that, and 99.9% of the time I'd like to side with a fellow cyclist!

But man, my point is that if some claim to be "experienced" riders and are aware of the things you mention, why do some people still go out and ride like nothing can happen to them... and when something does happen, they scream about bad drivers and lack of respect to them.

...Most gravely injured was LaGuardia, a young Cuban-born racer who lives nearby. The impact broke his wrist and cervical vertebrae, the bones in his neck. Eight weeks later he's still in a neck brace, unable to turn his head. LaGuardia, who came to the United States from the island five years ago, works as a handyman and carpenter. He's the breadwinner for his wife and two children. The accident has put him out of work and is symptomatic of a bigger problem: lack of respect for bicyclists in Miami. "In Cuba there are no lights, and people don't respect bicycles. They are muy agresivo," he says. "But here — they are super agresivo."

I'd like to know which city in the USA prides itself for the respect they give to cyclists!

10-4 on this one for me!

..A..

[Fixed]

bro imho if you are having a crit on open roads without outside help you give up some things
cheers

[GoJavs]

I actually find that some of what is said in that article just makes the situation worse. It's not 'us' against 'them'. Unfortunately, for some of these 'racers' it is...That's the sad part.

I make every effort to ride the most desolate roads I can find down here. I also make an effort to choose my speed based on the time of day and conditions. Hey, I'm not a brain surgeon. I'm just trying to be safe.

These dudes that insists on racing in the middle of rush hour, at 25-30 mph in an area full of cars parked illegally...... :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, cars do own the road. Bike lane or not, they can squash us like bugs. That earns my respect, every time, regardless of whether they are wrong or right. :)

[Len J]

Which logic, yours or the cyclists involved in the wreck? Also, what woman are you talking about? She could have been a visitor, no? And... who would have more to lose? She or the cyclists?

I'd like to know on which paradise you live bro! I mean, just because there are a lot of cyclists on a road that does not mean they are allowed to race or do stupid things on that road!

Love,

..A..

It's the implication of your comment that I question.

So again, because they were riding fast in the bike lane of a well traveled by cyclist route on a night that they always ride.....it's their fault? Which is what you seem to be implying.

She is a local according to other articles I've read BTW.

She pulled out without looking............it wouldn't have mattered what the cyclist were doing........she didn't look &/or pulled out without adequate visibility....again I ask...How is that the cyclist fault?

len

[GoJavs]

Excessive speed for conditions. Simple. Bunch of cars blocking the bike lane? Slow down....................!

There are very few places where 25 mph+ is safe in South Florida. Most of them are WAY south of Kendall.

[Avispa]

Excessive speed for conditions. Simple. Bunch of cars blocking the bike lane? Slow down....................!

There are very few places where 25 mph+ is safe in South Florida. Most of them are WAY south of Kendall.

I actually find that some of what is said in that article just makes the situation worse. It's not 'us' against 'them'. Unfortunately, for some of these 'racers' it is...That's the sad part.

I make every effort to ride the most desolate roads I can find down here. I also make an effort to choose my speed based on the time of day and conditions. Hey, I'm not a brain surgeon. I'm just trying to be safe.

These dudes that insists on racing in the middle of rush hour, at 25-30 mph in an area full of cars parked illegally...... :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, cars do own the road. Bike lane or not, they can squash us like bugs. That earns my respect, every time, regardless of whether they are wrong or right. :)

Like the jerk would say.... Can someone please give this man a trophy or something!

THAT'S what I am talking about...

..A..

[BumbleBeeDave]

Not to jump on the "beat BBDave" band wagon...


. . . Jump on the wagon! There's plenty of room for everyone! ;)

Not trusting my own memory, I went to my bookshelf and hauled out the book and re-read that chapter this evening. I got a few details wrong, but I think it's a tribute to the bone-chilling brutality of the narrative that I still remember it as vividly and accurately as I do.

The book is called "Miles From Nowhere" by Barbara Savage and was given to me by a friend at Christmas 1983, the same year it was published. As far as I know it's still in print--I've seen it at Border's recently. It chronicles the trip taken by Savage and her husband Larry around the world over a span of several years.

The name of the chapter I remembered is "Dive or Die" and it starts thusly . . .

"When a park ranger in the Florida Keys told us that once while he was bicycling in central Florida a car pulled up alongside him and the woman driver tossed a dirt diaper in his face, we knew he was telling the truth. And we weren't surprised in the least that in southern Florida a motorist heaved a cupful of crushed ice into his eyes. After pedaling nearly the full length of Florida, Larry and I knew all about that special experience called Surviving on a Bicycle in Central and southern Florida. And we had a few tales of our own to tell as well.

It ends with . . . "It felt wonderful to know that we were finally about to get out of Florida."

In between are 17 closely spaced pages describing what could only be described as a nightmare on earth for touring cyclists. They started in New Port Richey visiting relatives after cycling south through Northern Florida and Georgia and have no problems to speak of. From NPR they went east on route 54 to Zephyrhills, then south on route 39. They go through Fort Lonesome on route 39 and southward and onto Route 62 to Duette, where the local preacher won't let them camp on the grounds of the local church and sends them on a wild goose chase into a swamp in search of a campsite.

From Duette they headed east on Route 62, then south through Wauchala and Arcadia on routes 17 and 31. Savage describes riding on these roads . . .

"When the drivers on 17 and 31 spotted us up ahead pedaling along the edge of their lane, the overwhelming majority of them responded in one of three ways. They either rode behind us and honked for what seemed like an eternity before roaring by as close as possible; or they pulled alongside us and filled the air with raging obscenities; or they opted for the silent, direct approach and tried to hit us. With this last group there was never any warning. They never honked or shouted; they simply plowed straight for us. Luckily we always heard their engines and dove off the road just before they ran us over. Upset that they had missed their opportunity, the drivers would shake their fists or give us the finger as they barreled past."

They then headed south on route 41 toward the Everglades, dodging RV's and dump trucks, and engaging in the self-preservationist behavior that gave the chapter it's name. There, at the small settlement of Monroe Station, they had their only episode of positive hospitality that Savage describes in the whole chapter.

They head south from there and ride to Key West, where the highlight of their trip on the highway through the Keys includes Larry getting punched in the face by a tourist van driver. Larry had shaken his fist at the driver after the van came within a few feet of running over them both on the narrow, two lane highway bridge. The driver pulled over at the end of the bridge and waited for them to express his displeasure at Larry's gall in not jumping over the railing of the bridge and into the ocean to get out of the way of his van.

It goes on, but I won't bother. I think you get the idea. Keep in mind that this couple were no novices. They had already ridden 8,500 miles across the US, zigzagging to see the sights. As bike tourists, they knew exactly what they were doing.

Now, on to the "massacre." I feel nothing but sorrow for the guys who were injured in this unfortunate incident. Their families don't deserve to have to deal with the heartache and financial hardship that are sure to go on for some time.

But that being said, any group of cyclists who engage in racing type behavior, riding in a pack at race speeds through any even semi-urban area without any aid in closing roads or other race organization type support are asking for it. Sooner or later some moron driver IS going to turn out in front of them or across them or whatever because the roads are full of moron drivers who are distracted, drunk, bored, or think they are the center of the universe and can do whatever they please. It should come as no surprise to anyone on this board who rides seriously that such is just the way it is, regardless of whatever traffic laws are.

I've been on several such group "rides" while visiting in Kansas city--wannabe racers sprinting through stop signs and red lights--and watching several of them careen into cars of drivers who were doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing. Need I say I let them go and didn't go on that group "ride" again?

Neither cyclists nor drivers are always right. We seem to have no problems blaming any number of road hazards on drivers. But we need to take a step back, look in the mirror, and have the integrity to admit that, at times, our greatest enemy in trying to get equal access to roads and respect as we ride them is US.

BBD

[Fixed]

i been on those road and bad as they can be they are not unridable and it can be very pretty down that way
imho
cheers
They started in New Port Richey visiting relatives after cycling south through Northern Florida and Georgia and have no problems to speak of. From NPR they went east on route 54 to Zephyrhills, then south on route 39. They go through Fort Lonesome on route 39 and southward and onto Route 62 to Duette, where the local preacher won't let them camp on the grounds of the local church and sends them on a wild goose chase into a swamp in search of a campsite.

From Duette they headed east on Route 62, then south through Wauchala and Arcadia on routes 17 and 31. Savage describes riding on these roads . . .

"When the drivers on 17 and 31 spotted us up ahead pedaling along the edge of their lane, the overwhelming majority of them responded in one of three ways. They either rode behind us and honked for what seemed like an eternity before roaring by as close as possible; or they pulled alongside us and filled the air with raging obscenities; or they opted for the silent, direct approach and tried to hit us. With this last group there was never any warning. They never honked or shouted; they simply plowed straight for us. Luckily we always heard their engines and dove off the road just before they ran us over. Upset that they had missed their opportunity, the drivers would shake their fists or give us the finger as they barreled past."

[Avispa]

It's the implication of your comment that I question.

So again, because they were riding fast in the bike lane of a well traveled by cyclist route on a night that they always ride.....it's their fault? Which is what you seem to be implying.

Len bro,

I always like to end a discussion on a favorable note for all parties involved... So, to answer to you: NO, that is not what I am implying... What I am implying is that if a person decides to ride a bike fast on a public road they have to accept certain responsibilities, which I think some of these riders did not!

These guys were not just "riding fast", it is my understanding that they were doing a simulated bike race! Especially on a road with cars parked illegally, thus creating a danger to them. This is not the first time that a fatality has happened on that course, and therefore my comments. If you are aware that the place were you ride is NOT safe, then be careful! Obviously, to some of these guys safety was less important than their "race".

If I give you a loaded gun (fast bike), and I warn you it is loaded (cars parked illegally, lower visibility for everyone) and then you shoot yourself in the foot (a driver crashes with you), then who's fault it is?

Love bro,

..A..

That's all...

[Len J]

Len bro,

I always like to end a discussion on a favorable note for all parties involved... So, to answer to you: NO, that is not what I am implying... What I am implying is that is a person decides to ride a bike fast on a public road they have to accept certain responsibilities, which I think some of these riders did not!

These guys were not just "riding fast", it is my understanding that they were doing a simulated bike race! Especially on a road with cars parked illegally, thus creating a danger to them. This is not the first time that a fatality has happened on that course, and therefore my comments. If you are aware that the place were you ride is NOT safe, then be careful! Obviously, to some of these guys safety was less important than their "race".

If I give you a loaded gun (fast bike), and I warn you it is loaded (cars parked illegally, lower visibility for everyone) and then you shoot yourself in the foot (a driver crashes with you), then who's fault it is?

Love bro,

..A..

That's all...

Obviously, we are all responsible for riding defensivly........however, to put this in the proper perspective.....

Riders culpability in this accident = < 5%
Drivers culpability in this accident = > 95%

Your posts seem to be focusing the majority of the culpability on the cyclists......that is disingenuous IMO.

Len

[Fixed]

bro there is mucho macho in south fla. imho
cheers

[Big Dan]

That mindset will get you killed down here.....

:bike:

[J.Greene]

. After pedaling nearly the full length of Florida, Larry and I knew all about that special experience called Surviving on a Bicycle in Central and southern Florida. And we had a few tales of our own to tell as well.

IBBD

I have lived in Central Florida my whole life. Those are not my experiences nor of anyone I know. For all of those events to happen to one couple seems unlikely to me.

The savages either:
1. used a lot of creative license to describe those events
or
2. They were the cause of the problems.

JG

[Fixed]

a dramatazation to sell books maybe
cheers

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . before you make a judgment. The quotes from the book are verbatim. Perhaps the area has improved in the past 24 years. But somehow I doubt it. Unfortunately we can't quiz Savage on her veracity. She was killed shortly before this book went to press--while riding her bike.

In any event, it's a very entertaining and thought-provoking book.

BBD

[GoJavs]

Len - you truly need to see the course in question before you make a statement like that. Those dudes had no business going 25-30mph on a course full of parked cars in a late afternoon on a week day...
-----------------------------------------------------------

Obviously, we are all responsible for riding defensivly........however, to put this in the proper perspective.....

Riders culpability in this accident = < 5%
Drivers culpability in this accident = > 95%

Your posts seem to be focusing the majority of the culpability on the cyclists......that is disingenuous IMO.

Len

[deanster]

AMEN GOJAVS! Riding in a pack of riders on a road in a city with the Hammer down is inherently dangerous. The pack is moving rapidly and everyone behind the lead rider is just trying to keep their measure from the person directly in front. Not a situation that one can get too mad at the driver. Hammer riding in the city is VERY dangerous with any more than 3 or 4 riders. And because you are trying to WIN the informal race and safety is the last thing on your mind. Court danger and this is bound to happen. Winning the sprint to the city limits sign isn't worth the pain.
Demanding your "rights" on the road without responsible riding is foolish. Cars and ordinary drivers have Zero expectation of running into this kind of thing. Keep the peleton for "formal" races or country roads.

[Len J]

Len - you truly need to see the course in question before you make a statement like that. Those dudes had no business going 25-30mph on a course full of parked cars in a late afternoon on a week day...
-----------------------------------------------------------

I love it.....she pulls out without looking and it's their fault!

You've got to be kidding.

len

[GoJavs]

I love it.....she pulls out without looking and it's their fault!

You've got to be kidding.

len

Len - Come down here and see the course, please. Their fault is certainly more than 5%. They had NO BUSINESS going 30 mph on that road at that particular time when the usually-safe road was full of parked cars!

That's like saying it wouldn't be their fault at all if they decided to go 30 mph in the rain and wrecked.....! Conditions dictate speed. Not the riders.

[Len J]

Len - Come down here and see the course, please. Their fault is certainly more than 5%. They had NO BUSINESS going 30 mph on that road at that particular time when the usually-safe road was full of parked cars!

That's like saying it wouldn't be their fault at all if they decided to go 30 mph in the rain and wrecked.....! Conditions dictate speed. Not the riders.

So is the driver blameless?

As I understand it, she was a local......this circuit is used on that night every week for that purpose.........and has been for an extended period of time. No one has shut it down, it has become part of the local neighborhood.

5% may be an exaggeration, but I doubt it is by much.

She bears the majority of the culpability, by a large margin. I can't see how anyone could argue that.......she didn't look, she just pulled out. She could have just as easily taken out a group riding at 20MPH or 15 MPH. The speed of the people she hit is not the issue....the issue is that she drove recklessly.

Len

[FlaRider]

Len - Come down here and see the course, please. Their fault is certainly more than 5%. They had NO BUSINESS going 30 mph on that road at that particular time when the usually-safe road was full of parked cars!

That's like saying it wouldn't be their fault at all if they decided to go 30 mph in the rain and wrecked.....! Conditions dictate speed. Not the riders.

I live in Miami, have seen/ridden the course many times and completely agree with your assessment. I would assign culpability at least 50/50.

[GoJavs]

...She could have just as easily taken out a group riding at 20MPH or 15 MPH. The speed of the people she hit is not the issue....the issue is that she drove recklessly...

Len

Alright. You know what. You are NOT a local. You are arguing about something you don't know from a 1000 miles away. Plus those last few comments.....please....The speed of the riders is not an issue?

Like I said, come down here and look at the course yourself. Otherwise, stay up there and ride 30 mph thru your 'secure' city streets.

One more time: Conditions dictate speed. It wasn't business as usual that day. The bike lane was full of cars! These hot rods (some of whom I've ridden with) just wanted to go fast because 'that's what they always do'.

Again, if it were raining and they wrecked would it be God's fault, then? Riders need to take responsibility for their actions.

[Len J]

Alright. You know what. You are NOT a local. You are arguing about something you don't know from a 1000 miles away. Plus those last few comments.....please....The speed of the riders is not an issue?

Like I said, come down here and look at the course yourself. Otherwise, stay up there and ride 30 mph thru your 'secure' city streets.

One more time: Conditions dictate speed. It wasn't business as usual that day. The bike lane was full of cars! These hot rods (some of whom I've ridden with) just wanted to go fast because 'that's what they always do'.

Again, if it were raining and they wrecked would it be God's fault, then? Riders need to take responsibility for their actions.

If a car was doing 30 on that road and she pulled out without looking....whose fault would it be?

It's pretty simple really............the fact that it was a cyclist is immaterial.

Len

[GoJavs]

If a car was doing 30 on that road and she pulled out without looking....whose fault would it be?

It's pretty simple really............the fact that it was a cyclist is immaterial.

Len

What's simple is the fact that I'm wasting my time debating this with a guy sitting 1000 miles away!

QUOTE
...the fact that it was a cyclist is immaterial...
UNQUOTE

That last quote is your best one yet. You are saying that a pack of 30-40 cyclists can break from 30 mph down to zero to avoid a collision as easily as a car? :rolleyes:

Oh. Later. I gotta get to work....

[Len J]

What's simple is the fact that I'm wasting my time debating this with a guy sitting 1000 miles away!

QUOTE
...the fact that it was a cyclist is immaterial...
UNQUOTE

That last quote is your best one yet. You are saying that a pack of 30-40 cyclists can break from 30 mph down to zero to avoid a collision as easily as a car? :rolleyes:

Oh. Later. I gotta get to work....

Yea, my location is important. Good argument.

len

[J.Greene]

. . . before you make a judgment. The quotes from the book are verbatim. Perhaps the area has improved in the past 24 years. But somehow I doubt it. Unfortunately we can't quiz Savage on her veracity. She was killed shortly before this book went to press--while riding her bike.

In any event, it's a very entertaining and thought-provoking book.

BBD

I have read the book. Most parts of it anyway. I found the story boring at the time. I'm more into that kind of riding so I may pull it back out.

I don't ride in South Florida. I would not know how to get from point a to b safely because i don't know the area. In Central Florida though we have great riding. We used to have quite a few pro's winter here. The roads are good, traffic is mostly respectful if you are, and the weather is not much of an issue wrt safety.

JG

[GoJavs]

Have you ever seen the road? Have you ever ridden the road? How do you know their speed was safe for the conditions? Now, I know you are just trolling.

Not responding any more. Come down here and you and I will ride it together at 30 mph on a week night with the bike lane full of cars......!!!! :crap:

Yea, my location is important. Good argument.

len

[ss-jimbo]

From NPR they went east on route 54 to Zephyrhills, then south on route 39. They go through Fort Lonesome on route 39 and southward and onto Route 62 to Duette, where the local preacher won't let them camp on the grounds of the local church and sends them on a wild goose chase into a swamp in search of a campsite.

From Duette they headed east on Route 62, then south through Wauchala and Arcadia on routes 17 and 31. Savage describes riding on these roads . . .

"When the drivers on 17 and 31 spotted us up ahead pedaling along the edge of their lane, the overwhelming majority of them responded in one of three ways. They either rode behind us and honked for what seemed like an eternity before roaring by as close as possible; or they pulled alongside us and filled the air with raging obscenities; or they opted for the silent, direct approach and tried to hit us. With this last group there was never any warning. They never honked or shouted; they simply plowed straight for us. Luckily we always heard their engines and dove off the road just before they ran us over. Upset that they had missed their opportunity, the drivers would shake their fists or give us the finger as they barreled past."

Wow, overwhelming majority. What defines that, 60%? A quote like that is the very definition of hyperbole. I'd also like to know how to tell a car is heading straight for me solely by the sound of its engine, especially with enough time to bail from the roadway. When you are trying to sell books, you must be tempted to play up every adventure, and this certainly seems to be the case here.

I've actually ridden much of that route, at least from Bartow to Ft. Myers. I did this about 5 or 6 years ago, during a ride from Gainesville, FL to Sanibel Island, in July. The heat about did me in, but I never had a problem with cars. One thing I did was avoid 17 where I could, which was actually most of it. I wonder why they would choose to ride on a major two lane N-S corridor when there are many smaller alternatives. I did ride 31 from Arcadia to Ft. Myers. I can guarantee that there is more traffic now than when they rode, but the worst I can say is that 31 is really, really boring. As I said, I didn't have a single problem with cars, not one.

jimbo

[Big Dan]

Hey Len, can you tell me if I can ride down Old Cutler Road today?

:p



The internets is a freaking joke.....

[Len J]

Have you ever seen the road? Have you ever ridden the road? How do you know their speed was safe for the conditions? Now, I know you are just trolling.

Not responding any more. Come down here and you and I will ride it together at 30 mph on a week night with the bike lane full of cars......!!!! :crap:

Yea, I'm trolling.....because I disagree with you.

Len

[FlaRider]

Yea, I'm trolling.....because I disagree with you.

Len


Let it go, man. Culpability should determined by a court of law, not a bunch of people on the internet who have no first-hand knowledge of the facts.

[Redturbo]

Hey Len, can you tell me if I can ride down Old Cutler Road today?

:p



The internets is a freaking joke.....

BD
I used to ride down Old Cutler to get to the Grove (the old Coconut Grove, you know Coconut grove bike shop, Cozolli's pizza and the pink pusy cat :cool: ) say 1979. I flatted one day and a cop stopped and gave me a ride to the bike shop. Ah, the good old day's in South Florida.
Do they still do the Coconut grove bike race?

[J.Greene]

Do they still do the Coconut grove bike race?

I think the promoter was murdered a few years ago. There may have been a few editions after that but it kinda fizzled out.

JG

[BumbleBeeDave]

Wow, overwhelming majority. What defines that, 60%? A quote like that is the very definition of hyperbole. I'd also like to know how to tell a car is heading straight for me solely by the sound of its engine, especially with enough time to bail from the roadway. When you are trying to sell books, you must be tempted to play up every adventure, and this certainly seems to be the case here.

I've actually ridden much of that route, at least from Bartow to Ft. Myers. I did this about 5 or 6 years ago, during a ride from Gainesville, FL to Sanibel Island, in July. The heat about did me in, but I never had a problem with cars. One thing I did was avoid 17 where I could, which was actually most of it. I wonder why they would choose to ride on a major two lane N-S corridor when there are many smaller alternatives. I did ride 31 from Arcadia to Ft. Myers. I can guarantee that there is more traffic now than when they rode, but the worst I can say is that 31 is really, really boring. As I said, I didn't have a single problem with cars, not one.

jimbo


I'd be the first to agree there may be a fair amount of hyperbole in there. At one point she refers to them having to "dive or die" 5 times in a 30 minute period on those roads. I have no doubt that far more than 5 cars passed them in that 30 minutes on a major highway. But keep in mind that she also vividly describes how there were absolutely no shoulders on these roads. They had no choice but to ride in the traffic lane, and if they did run off the pavement, the sandy soil would grab their wheels and most often they would go down--hard. I can easily imagine that in the 25 years since this was written, the highways may well have been upgraded with paved shoulders.

But I'm also trying to consider it in the context of the rest of their adventure and what I remember of the rest of the book. I've kept it all these years and re-read it at intervals because I think it's a fascinating story and it resonates with me as a cyclist. Regardless of the hyperbole of specific incidents, I trust the impression she is trying to convey that in south and central Florida they felt unwelcome and in danger for their lives riding the roads there. The chapter is a distinct contrast to the rest of the book, where they recount story after story from all over the world of many people welcoming them and offering to take them in, help them with their trip, etc.

I'm also trying to keep in mind that while they started in the Pacific Northwest and were experience touring cyclists by the time the got to Florida, this was in 1980 or so. There was no Internet, no MapQuest, and no Bikely or other route planning software easily available. They seem to have been picking highways to ride on, maybe because those were the only routes they could be sure of after looking at AAA maps or whatever? I can't say for sure.

But the overall point I was trying to make is that it did not surprise me that the roads in central and southern Florida are dangerous. I had gotten that impression long ago from this book and from many forum posts on the same subject I have seen here.

Regardless of your opinion of her writing, I'd still advise trying to find te book at your local Border's or library. It's a fascinating read!

BBD

[J.Greene]

But the overall point I was trying to make is that it did not surprise me that the roads in central and southern Florida are dangerous. I had gotten that impression long ago from this book and from many forum posts on the same subject I have seen here.
BBD

Have you ever ridden in Central Florida? If you are ever down this way (pick winter) I'd love the chance to change your opinion with great roads and hospitality.

While I have ridden in places that were a little more bike friendly, Central FL is not bad, and if you consider our population size i think it's pretty good. I can't think of a better way to have an informed decision than trying this place out.

JG

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . to have the opportunity to take you up on that, Mr. G! Mybe I could sleep in Bove's basement? :rolleyes:

I'm not trying to indict the whole area! I'm sure that with local knowledge it's possible to avoid a whole lot of problems just in what roads you choose to ride on. I know that's true around here.

I think if the Savage's had been able to take advantage of the wealth of info offered by the Internet and boards like this one with so much localized knowledge, they could have avoided many problems on their trip!

BBD

[GoJavs]

Yea, I'm trolling.....because I disagree with you.

Len

:rolleyes:

Yea. That's it, Len. Uh-hum.

Offer stands. You and me in Kendall, 30 mph on a week night with cars parked all over. Let's go! :banana:

[Kevan]

BD
I used to ride down Old Cutler to get to the Grove (the old Coconut Grove, you know Coconut grove bike shop, Cozolli's pizza and the pink pusy cat :cool: ) say 1979. I flatted one day and a cop stopped and gave me a ride to the bike shop. Ah, the good old day's in South Florida.
Do they still do the Coconut grove bike race?

for all the tea poured into Biscayne Bay, but this posting warmed the cockles. I left this turf back in '74, but boy did I love my Coconut Grove experience. Can't say I remember much in terms of shop names except Lum's where we could sneak beers to under age classmates and wolf down some hot dogs. I rode my bike every which way through those streets, had some of them pinched too. Wacky neighborhood.

[Len J]

:rolleyes:

Yea. That's it, Len. Uh-hum.

Offer stands. You and me in Kendall, 30 mph on a week night with cars parked all over. Let's go! :banana:

assumes I can do 30 MPH!....nicest thing anyone has said to me today.

Len

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that IS a compliment! I don't think there's a hill in all of Florida you could coast down and get up to 30! :beer:

BBD

[BURCH]

I have never ridden in FL, but I would think that cycling in Florida 25 years ago WITH PACKED TROURING BIKES would have brought about more comtempt from motorist than riding in 2007 on a non packed bike (meaning - not as wide). On a whole, people in the US have gotten more accepting of cyclists believe it or not.

I don't know those roads, but I have ridden across the country and if you end up on roads that are not commonly used by cyclists, motorist have no patience for you. You quickly realize that you are on a major commuter route and pretty much a target and just want to get off the road ASAP. It is a downfall of touring unknown roads day after day. I believe those events probable were accurate from the book.

Just my 2 cents. ;)


I hope those cyclists from Florida recover quickly.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . in the book. These people were definitely doing this on the cheap. There's a small photo section in the book and several of the pics really make them look like rolling bums. It's not like they were touring with nice clothing, new panniers, and shiny new helmets. It looks like it was strictly a tennis shoes and toe clips type affair. I have to be honest and say if I saw them riding around Schenectady I might assume they were homeless.

BBD

[Your_Friend!]

. . . in the book. These people were definitely doing this on the cheap. There's a small photo section in the book and several of the pics really make them look like rolling bums. It's not like they were touring with nice clothing, new panniers, and shiny new helmets. It looks like it was strictly a tennis shoes and toe clips type affair. I have to be honest and say if I saw them riding around Schenectady I might assume they were homeless.

BBD


BBDave!


It Is Friendlier _Not_

To Judge People!

Perhaps You Would Think

Kent Peterson

Was Homeless!

If You Saw Him

On A Ride!



Love,
Y_F!

[t. swartz]

for all the tea poured into Biscayne Bay, but this posting warmed the cockles. I left this turf back in '74, but boy did I love my Coconut Grove experience. Can't say I remember much in terms of shop names except Lum's where we could sneak beers to under age classmates and wolf down some hot dogs. I rode my bike every which way through those streets, had some of them pinched too. Wacky neighborhood.
grew up near the grove, truly was a mystical place in the '70's...

[BumbleBeeDave]

BBDave!


It Is Friendlier _Not_

To Judge People!

Perhaps You Would Think

Kent Peterson

Was Homeless!

If You Saw Him

On A Ride!



Love,
Y_F!

. . . If I see them riding down the street like that I'm certainly not going to assume they are on the local racing club ride. I'm not making any judgements aboput their personality aside from being glad I'm not them. But they were doing the trip on the cheap--it's no surprise to me they looked scruffy. The whole thing was on a shoestring. Read the book! . . .

BBD

[Steve Hampsten]

BBDave!


It Is Friendlier _Not_

To Judge People!

Perhaps You Would Think

Kent Peterson

Was Homeless!

If You Saw Him

On A Ride!



Love,
Y_F!

Kent's fine - it's his bike that looks homeless.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Redturbo]

grew up near the grove, truly was a mystical place in the '70's...

Truly two different vibes going on here. How about some frisbee golf at peacock park :beer:

[pedalcr8z]

Interesting and sad article. I heard a comedian once describe Florida as
"God's waiting room" which brings to my mind the countless times that I have been down there and me thinks that there is no freaking way I'd be hauling *** with that many riders at that time of day in such a congested traffic area! GoJavs is 100% on the money, they were tempting fate........geez we're not talking lonely Everglades highways here, we're talking heavy traffic area akin to doing sprints in Manhattan. Let's put down this "cyclists rights attitude".....there's a time and a place! Hauling butt with a posse in an area where most drivers need a pillow to see over their freaking steering wheel to me simply tempts fate. :bike:

[t. swartz]

Truly two different vibes going on here. How about some frisbee golf at peacock park :beer:
loser buys at monty's...

[Avispa]

grew up near the grove, truly was a mystical place in the '70's...

I am relatively new to SoFlo, therefore, never knew of those great days...

The Grove is certainly not what it used to be... It has become a divided community with the oldest black population of Florida (and now a very poor one), mixed with the million dollar+ townhouses and condos, practically down their streets. Besides the short commercial strip that is in Main Hwy, there is not a whole lot more going on the Grove. Not too long ago, and perhaps now, muggings and hold-ups were a common thing if you made the wrong turn.

It is certainly not good for riding through; not so much because of the crime, but because of congested, badly designed streets with no shoulder and some barely with a decent side walk!

However, I personally like the place for other things; for instance, they still have a great arts festival and it's a great place to hang out at a sidewalk table and have some wine, while you watch the Halloween freaks parade near Cocowalk. The mystique, however, has certainly disappeared...

..A..

[BumbleBeeDave]

This thread is so yesterday! Get back over to the "Boss Chick" thread! THAT'S where the action is THESE days! :eek: :cool: ;)

BBD

[BUTCH RIDES]

Hello the driver was blind in one eye and couldn't see out of the other one .
adios amigos

[Samster]

what's a "blue head"?

[J.Greene]

what's a "blue head"?

One of those little old ladies that wash their hair with that blue dye shampoo. We see them during the winter here in FL. Many can't see over the dash but still drive.

JG

[t. swartz]

same as a "q-tip"