Liggett's put down of Ullrich

[BarryG]

Liggett seemed to put a new, harsher spin on Jan's lack of performance in his commentary on the CBS TdF show today (during stage 13 snippet):

"The German Jan Ullrich, who had promised so much, had been living a lie and his transparency was now there for all of us to see through."

Ouch.

[93legendti]

The truth hurts. I have to dig out a pic of me and dough boy in Majorca in 1998 and post it...

[tom2517]

Liggett seemed to put a new, harsher spin on Jan's lack of performance in his commentary on the CBS TdF show today (during stage 13 snippet):

"The German Jan Ullrich, who had promised so much, had been living a lie and his transparency was now there for all of us to see through."

Ouch.

Ouch! Maybe I don't watch enough TV, but I don't remember Liggett being this harsh on anyone.

[shaq-d]

it's probably ullrich's lack of ambition and drive that frustrates. ullrich's latest words are about how he wants to support kloden etc.; which is fine and dandy and expect if you're, say, simoni and crushed by cunego. but ullrich is no simoni and he should be fighting like a wild man. oh well, what can u do; ullrich just doesn't put his balls on the line for the tdf.

sd

[Elefantino]

I think he lost too much weight, too fast. He was 5 kilos over his ideal with a month to go. Reminds me of Ali when he fought Larry Holmes in 1980. Looks good, but nothing in the tank.

Did I mention that, on this board, I picked Basso for the podium?

:banana:

[Andreu]

Ye Olde cycling lore:
If you lose weight or gain fitness fast - you will gain weight or lose fitness fast.
I have made this mistake with health consequences and complete loss of form once.
A

[Too Tall]

Ditto. Do the math. JanJan lost weight to fast for him NOT to lose lean muscle. As if I know 'chit BUT I am soooo nonplused with Jan's totally passive ride. After Lancey boys killer Prologue wasn't it obvious he and his team needed to shake things up? I feel bad for him but not THAT bad.

[Kevin]

Jan is done. I predict that he stops at a Krispy Kreme on his way to Paris.

Kevin

[Dr. Doofus]

he just gets too big....

the problem for jan is how to gain enough fat that will let him develop muscle in the winter, but without gaining so much that he has to compromise his food intake while doing the hard training needed to peak for the Tour.

one can't lose *just* fat. when an athlete slims down for the tour, he loses some muscle as well. for a rider whose muscular force is one of his great assets, the challenge is how to lose weight without losing power. simply, he has to put on muscle in the winter to lose weight without losing power -- its an oversimplification, but he has to gain weight to lose weight.

another way to think of this is to consider set points. say an athlete has a natural set point of 6% fat...he can't get any lower. you can't train as a cyclist in northern europe at 8% fat, year round. in the cold, wet climate, the body has to use energy to maintain core temperature and keep the immune system going...and if body fat is too low too early, the body will be using energy to maintain the functions that it needs to use fat for, and not using that energy to adapt and recover from training (and your body knows this...this is why you naturally tend to eat more when its cold and wet).

also with set point, say jan wants to hit the tour with 5% fat, at 75 kilos. he needs to have more than 75 kilos of lean mass if he's 10% fat...otherwise, he won't have the power when he gets down to 75. so its not just gaining 10 pounds of fat. and remember, your body doesn't lose weight selectively if you're training hard, and burning CHO like crazy. to train at 10% fat, jan needs to gain more than just 5 kilos of fat...more like 7 kilos of fat and 5 of muscle...those pink whale pictures make sense now?

another factor is that you need some fat to support muscle development. for weight training and low-cadence work to develop mass, the body needs some fat reserves to aid in recovery, so that metabolic energy is "maximized," so to speak, so that the body isn't using its resources to try to both recover and build tissue at the same time -- (HGH is the helpful solution here...gee, you can gain lean mass *and* recover at the same time, with no messy fat gain...see why so many pros abuse it?). ferrari has raised this point several times...heard him give a lecture on it...to build muscle during the foundation period, and not compromise recovery or immune resistance, an elite cyclist has to gain some fat....

so you gain your fat. you develop your muscle mass so you don't lose power when you get skinny. now you're 15+ pounds over your race weight. the trick now is how and when to take that fat and lean mass off. too early, the body will lose too much mass during the intense training/racing the 6-8 weeks before the Tour. too late, you're crash dieting and can't maintain the training/racing needed the 6-8 weeks before the Tour. there's no one program tat would work for every athlete. armstrong has a great advantage that he's so naturally explosive, and is able to manage his training, in a way that he doesn't need to "gain to lose" to the same degree as jan or others...so its not as simple as jan copying what lance or anyone else does....

off to gain some fat now...I'm going to peak...one of these days...really...so I need to prepare for it properly

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Too Tall]

EVERYBODY should print out Dr.D's rant for reference. Thank you, so well said.

[Andreu]

"build muscle during the foundation period, and not compromise recovery or immune resistance, an elite cyclist has to gain some fat...."
This is exactly the problem I had (not that I am an elite athlete or anything)...lost lots of weight in December and January and didn´t have any reserve for muscle building in February and March..and was fried in April. I should have been flying in May and June but was just constantly fighting the bike (weak - no muscle) and completely knackered (no resistence to colds and minor ailments). Didn´t really understand what was happening back then but just learnt through trial and error what I needed to do....now I have the science too!
The problem is doubly hard because I had to rest up for about 4 months to recuperate sans bike.
thanks,
A

[Larry]

You can certainly complain about Jan's poor training habits.
However, take a close look at the comparison of teamwork.
T-Mobile...... no Vino and no Cadel Evans....... I really miss Vinokourov this year. He was capable of really powerful attacks and climbs. If he is healthy and in form, and has a solid team, I think he could step up and challenge the Posties.
U.S. Postal....... on the last mountain stage, they gave Lance a remarkable pull up the last climb. Plus, they chewed up the peloton long before the final ascent. Really, except for Basso, everyone was dog-tired. The Posties are even better this year than last, as indicated on the TTT.... absolutely well-disciplined and great training. They have peaked for this tour!!
Liggett's coments are indeed harsh, but ....... on the other hand, Jan is not performing at the level that even he himself expected. It appears that Jan may not even make the final podium. This might be his last TDF. If the Alpe Duez TT does not go well for Jan, he may disappear really fast from the remainder of the Tour.

Personally, I get really fed up with this repeated comment: "Jan is the most gifted and talented rider in the world." At least they are hoping for this.
Go figure...... he has been beaten numerous times by Lance.

LANCE and POSTAL are the best!!! ..... for now. Basso is the future, but I am fascinated to see how this young lion performs in the Alps this final week. --Larry

[TmcDet]

You can certainly complain about Jan's poor training habits.
However, take a close look at the comparison of teamwork.
T-Mobile...... no Vino and no Cadel Evans....... I really miss Vinokourov this year. He was capable of really powerful attacks and climbs. If he is healthy and in form, and has a solid team, I think he could step up and challenge the Posties.

I can't see how Vino or Evans could have made a difference in the outcome so far.....Jan didn't wear out while on an attach or leading the pack he ran out of gas while riding the wheel of the Postal team!!!!!! I think the important thing to look at here is that the Postal team wore the whole field out, with the exception of Basso. I think you would have to say that not only was Lance more prepared for the Tour than Jan but also that the whole Postal team was better prepared. The pace that the Postal team set for these 2 stages was just too much for them.

It seams that Lance, Johan or someone with Postal is able to push people and get them to train harder than they will train with other teams. Heras is a prime example of this, when he was with Postal he was always in better shape than he has shown this far in this Tour.

[Bruce H.]

Keep in mind that Liggett et al are commentators. It is very difficult to keep a lot of Tdf viewers (especially newcomers) excited and watching the show if it becomes one sided. So they are saying all that stuff about Jan in hopes that people will continue to watch in hopes he responds.
They probably will grab on to Basso and hype him now to keep viewers interests going. Even Lance said in post stage interview that this blowout is not good for the race, it would be better if it were more competitive.
just my $.02
Bruce H.

[Larry]

I will remark that Vino made for some interesting stages last year with some great attacks. The original plan for this year was for Vino and Jan to be the big guns for T-Mobile. Well, it appears that Postal is simply significantly superior to any team on the tour, period. Postal seems invincible at this point, and definitely better than last year's team. Hincappie and Landis have been really fantastic!
I did not realize that Hincappie was that great of a climber! What an engine!!!

As for Mayo, Heras, and the others...... well, it seems that they are all fried from Postals relentless and strong team pulling. Basso is hanging tough.

So...... perhaps Vino and Evans would not have made a difference, but remember, they were supposed to be the big guns for launching Jan in the mountains. Well..... the launch has been grounded for Jan. He is now a survivor and appears that he will lose more time, especially on Alpe Duez.

Go POSTAL in the final days!!

[Climb01742]

jan said everything you'd ever need to know about his priorities when he decided not to join riis at CSC -- where riis would have busted jan's butt to a tour victory -- and chose instead first to go to coast, then back to t-mobile -- both cushier gigs, where he knew no one would push him out of his comfort zone.

[Johny]

They probably will grab on to Basso and hype him now to keep viewers interests going.
Bruce H.

They are doing it now.

[jeffg]

EVERYBODY should print out Dr.D's rant for reference. Thank you, so well said.

Here is an brief excerpt from him on "overfeeding":

"Pro and amateur cyclists usually gain weight in the winter.

This is an inevitable consequence of interrupted or diminished training regimens, but it is also, partially at least, a deliberate choice.
Renown champions of the more or less recent past talk about incremental weight gain of between 3 and 6 kg or more in November - December of every year.
Many of them are convinced that this practice of “Overfeeding” (a kind of super-nutrition schedule) pays off during the following season.

It’s important to note that a 3-6 week period of Overfeeding can produce an increase in weight of which 50-60% is lean body mass (source: Ann. N.Y. Acad. Sci. 2000; 904: 359-365). This percentage can in turn be increased to 75-80% with a program of power training at a gym."

[gt6267a]

jan said everything you'd ever need to know about his priorities when he decided not to join riis at CSC -- where riis would have busted jan's butt to a tour victory -- and chose instead first to go to coast, then back to t-mobile -- both cushier gigs, where he knew no one would push him out of his comfort zone.

i am not confident that the reason why jan did not goto CSC was because riis would have pushed him harder and jan did not want that. i believe coast agreed to pay him considerably more and that was a very important factor. that said, it appears the outcome of the decision to goto coast Vs csc is as you said.

considering examples of basso, hamilton, and others, as a cycling fan, i would have liked to see jan goto csc and see what riis could get out of him.

-k

[flydhest]

Keith,

I agree with you, but for the sake of beer, I'm glad Jan did not make that choice.

:beer:

[alembical]

I like the comments from Pezcyclingnews.com re: stage 13 and Jan:

"Bottom line on this stage was that the Blue train left everyone again. Heras’ final destination might be Spain (Vuelta) and he’s just not worried about having a seat up front. Levi is a former employer of the Lance Armstrong express, but is simply riding one car behind. And Jan knows when and where the train is going, where all the critical stops are, and is a qualified Engineer. He just confuses the engine with the dinning car a little too long every year and spends too much time playing catch up instead of getting ahead…"

Alembical

[gt6267a]

Keith,

I agree with you, but for the sake of beer, I'm glad Jan did not make that choice.

:beer:

For the record, I still have a chance. The fat lady has not sung, though it appears she has taken a deep breath and is just waiting for the music to start.

i admit to being a lance fan so this is not a bet i loathe losing. for the sake of competition, i do wish jan had put up a fight. notice, i didn't say more of a fight.

maybe he will switch teams for the 3rd time in 3 years after this season and give CSC a try? of course, that window might be closed now with basso's performance this year.

-k

[MartyE]

T-Mobile...... no Vino and no Cadel Evans.......

The big difference in this tour than last year (at least IMHO) is the numbers
of attacks launched at Lance and the posties on all of the stages.
Last year as soon as the tour tipped up they were attacking. Last year
the blue train never got on the rails, they were too busy chasing down the
attacks (of Vino, Beloki, Hamilton, Mayo et al) to put out a serious high
speed tempo that this year is wearing everyone out.
Say what you want about Jan's weight, Mayo's peaking too soon,
Tyler's crash, but its the team tactics that are winning the tour
this year, and a lack of early attacks that disrupt the train.

Marty

[93legendti]

For the record, I still have a chance. The fat lady has not sung, though it appears she has taken a deep breath and is just waiting for the music to start.

i admit to being a lance fan so this is not a bet i loathe losing. for the sake of competition, i do wish jan had put up a fight. notice, i didn't say more of a fight.

maybe he will switch teams for the 3rd time in 3 years after this season and give CSC a try? of course, that window might be closed now with basso's performance this year.

-k

The fat lady hasn't sung, but the fat man has.... Jan says his problem in the winter is not being able to lay off his mother's home baked cakes...

[Dekonick]

Great team, great timing for the posties. Much easier for a US team (where most Americans dont give a rat's arse about spring classics and the Giro, or the Vuelta) to focus all energy on one race. If it werent for the WWW and OLN, I doubt there would be any reports on cycling at all. (except 1 paragraph blurbs once in a blue moon)

Thank you Lance! Thank you USPS! Thank you OLNTV! I hope that now cycling will at least have some coverage - even after Lance is gone.

I think it would be hard for a German team not to race in spring. I remember as a child watching cycling on TV all of the time. It seemed to always be on da tube - and that was with only 3 French channels, 2 French speaking Belgian channels, 1 Luxembourg channel, 2 flemish channels, 2 Dutch, and 3 German - That was it! (and all with an antena - no cable in the 70's or early 80's) total of - mmm 13 TV stations?

I should add that the German channels sucked. (for a kid)

Heh. I hope US cycling talent will continue to infiltrate the European pro ranks -

:D