RAGBRAI ban

[H.Frank Beshear]

Not sure who's following this but Carroll county in IA banned RAGBRAI :crap: , other counties are thinking about following in their footsteps. There is a poll (http://www.kcci.com/sports/14364350/detail.html) from a Des Moines station. When I voted it was 49% for the ban 47% against. I'll vote again when I get home :p . Regardless how it happened or even what happened all riders sign a waiver and Carroll county settled out of court. Vote early and vote often. Frank

[J.Greene]

Rule #1 in politics.....don't pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the truck load.

JG

[BURCH]

Wow, that is ashame about that cyclist that was killed.

I would think that the county would realize that the ride is a great way to promote your county and bring in some money. Over the years, I would think the benefits of the ride would far out weigh the settlement fee. Also, don't you think the state would kick in to pay that settlement. The ride is such well known event for the state.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . based on the story content, if the counties would simply properly maintain their roads, they wouldn't have to worry about cyclists running into potholes, getting killed, and suing them.

That being said, if I am remembering correctly, the state police in Colorado tried to unilaterally create a ban on cyclists riding in groups so as to get rid of several large tours out there. It created a great deal of negative publicity and they backed down.

Any county governmental body that wanted to prevent a bike tour from coming through would be under some pretty heavy burdens in writing legislation so narrowly as to prevent only RAGBRAI from coming through. If they word it too narrowly, they could legitimately be sued for discrimination. If they word it too loosely, then it wouldn't do what they want it to do.

Also, I wonder if Iowa state law specifically treats bikes as vehicles equal to cars? If it does, then the comparison is bound to be made as to whether the county could get away with banning cars from the county simply because they can't keep their own roads in good repair. Naturally, they couldn't. The county government has a clear legal responsibilitiy to maintain the roads for all users.

There would also be some question in my mind as to whether a county board of supes could even do this. After all, within any county there are many roads they have no jurisdiction over--village and city roads, state hoghways. They could pass their ban and the tour could come on through, anyway, just staying on a state highway and thumbing their noses at the county sheriff as they go by.

Any way you look at it, this county would lose more than they gain. They get tons of bad publicity, they lose any sales tax dollars from purchases cyclists make while coming through, and they'd probably get sued.

Geez, I sound like frickin' Bob Mionske! :rolleyes: :p

BBD

[Volant]

I 2nd the ban the cars idea! Imagine if people were required to do a fitness test before their driver's license could be renewed?

[CrazyHorse]

It was Crawford County, Iowa, not Carroll County, that recently banned RAGBRAI. Crawford County was sued by the widow for neglience in the death of her husband during the event. She was awarded $350,000 of which $345,000 was paid by the insurance company and $5,000 by the County. The insurance company advised the County to pay up and not fight the suit.

Now, officials from Carroll County, which is the county due east of Crawford Conty, hasve stated publicly that they also are considering a similar ban on RAGBRAI due to the liability.

As an Iowa resident and supporter of RAGBRAI and cycling in general it is a shame that our local government officials aren't being more proactive to support cycling instead of stating, as they did in Crawford County that our "...roads are for cars and trucks, not bicycles..."

[jthurow]

Also, I wonder if Iowa state law specifically treats bikes as vehicles equal to cars? If it does, then the comparison is bound to be made as to whether the county could get away with banning cars from the county simply because they can't keep their own roads in good repair. Naturally, they couldn't. The county government has a clear legal responsibilitiy to maintain the roads for all users.

BBD

According to Iowa Code § 321.234(2) (http://coolice.legis.state.ia.us/Cool-ICE/default.asp?category=billinfo&service=IowaCode&ga=82)... "A person, including a peace officer, riding a bicycle on the highway is subject to the provisions of this chapter and has all the rights and duties under this chapter applicable to the driver of a vehicle, except those provisions of this chapter which by their nature can have no application or those provisions for which specific exceptions have been set forth regarding police bicycles."

jimi

[Blue Jays]

A ban on bicyclists would be one of the silliest notions a county government could explore. A person participating in RAGBRAI would only need to remove any identifying numbers/placards and stick them in their pocket to become "just a person" out for a beautifully scenic Iowa bicycle ride.

Revenue generated by THOUSANDS of riders acquiring food, water, energy bars, trinkets, tourist tee-shirts, corny snowglobes, and everything else that vacationers purchase must equal MILLIONS of dollars. See what the taxpayers and local merchants think of that idea!

[Bittersweet]

I don't claim to know the facts, but it seems to me that the wife that sued the county ruined it for everyone. Similar things have happened in the ski industry and ultimately killed the little ski area with insurance costs.

Cycling is dangerous. Accept personal responsibility for your own actions. Proceed with caution. If you don't like it, stay at home and watch Dr. Phil.

[72gmc]

I'm with Bittersweet.

[H.Frank Beshear]

. . . based on the story content, if the counties would simply properly maintain their roads, they wouldn't have to worry about cyclists running into potholes, getting killed, and suing them.BBD

from what I've heard the rider in question dropped a wheel in the centerline joint. If so would this be a rider saftey issue?

[gone]

Cycling is dangerous. Accept personal responsibility for your own actions. Proceed with caution. If you don't like it, stay at home and watch Dr. Phil.
This ignores a fundamental principle of American jurisprudence: if something bad happens to me, it is someone elses fault and they should be required to compensate me and my lawyers. No exceptions.

[CrazyHorse]

I was told by some who witnessed the accident and were also riding in RAGBRAI that the race officias had been directing the riders to stay to the right side of the highway, along this particular section of road, because of the opening in the road's surface. The separation was at the bottom of a long hill so if riders were to hit the break in the paving, they usually would be going at a high rate of speed. According to the eyewitnesses, the cyclist was ignoring the officials or maybe wasn't aware of the request to stay to the right, and was riding on the left side of the road, away from the other riders, and hit the break in the road surface.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I don't claim to know the facts, but it seems to me that the wife that sued the county ruined it for everyone. Similar things have happened in the ski industry and ultimately killed the little ski area with insurance costs.

Cycling is dangerous. Accept personal responsibility for your own actions. Proceed with caution. If you don't like it, stay at home and watch Dr. Phil.

. . . or not, the situation is what it is. I strongly doubt the counties in question can make such a ban stick withou going through a lot of expensive acrobatics. Probably expensive enough that the costs would equal whatever they would have paid out in lawsuits anyway.

BBD

[dauwhe]

I would assume that the organizers would have significant insurance--why wouldn't this have come into play rather than the county's insurance?

Dave "one of the founders of RAGBRAI used to be on my paper route in Des Moines" C.

[thejen12]

I would assume that the organizers would have significant insurance--why wouldn't this have come into play rather than the county's insurance?

Believe me, they sue everybody in hopes of making the most recovery (and if the suit is meritless, they are still likely to recover the max insurance amount from each party due to the expense of fighting it). This happened to my bike club when a rider slipped on wet pavement and broke his hip on a club tour. He sued our club, the city, and one other party - maybe the county? I don't remember the third party. I think he recovered from the insurance companies of all three.

Jenn

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . if all participants in RAGBRAI were NOT required to sign some sort of waiver that would protect the actual organizers of the ride. This leaves any disgruntled party looking for someone else to sue.

I believe some states have a state law that protects ski areas specifically by stating that anyone who goes downhill skiing is acknowledging that they could get killed because it's an "inherently dangerous activity" or some such.

I guess in this case it kind of depends on exactly what kind of road hazard caused this cyclist to crash. I've seen quite a few spots around here that are just accidents waiting to happend with potholes that have been there literally for years without any repair. Possibly the same inthis case? . . .

BBD

[11.4]

It was Crawford County, Iowa, not Carroll County, that recently banned RAGBRAI. Crawford County was sued by the widow for neglience in the death of her husband during the event. She was awarded $350,000 of which $345,000 was paid by the insurance company and $5,000 by the County. The insurance company advised the County to pay up and not fight the suit.

Now, officials from Carroll County, which is the county due east of Crawford Conty, hasve stated publicly that they also are considering a similar ban on RAGBRAI due to the liability.

As an Iowa resident and supporter of RAGBRAI and cycling in general it is a shame that our local government officials aren't being more proactive to support cycling instead of stating, as they did in Crawford County that our "...roads are for cars and trucks, not bicycles..."

The problem that Crawford County faces is that they have to appear to be fixing the problem so it can't recur. Since they can't fix all pavement (or all idiot riders), they have to ban the behavior. When the ban gets overturned, they can say they tried their best and now it's someone else's fault. If they don't pursue this approach, they are seen to be uncaring and negligent and can face greater problems if there's another accident. I've also encountered situations where bond ratings and even availability of certain public financing are affected by such incidents. So as much as we (as proficient cyclists) understand the freakish nature of this accident, a municipality or county faces material issues they have to deal with and aren't always subject to reason.

I'd add to this that in addition to the thousands of pleasant and friendly riders, there are also riders who urinate on people's lawns, rip off food and drink from merchants along the way, swear at and act abusively towards locals, indulge in public sex, strew garbage, sue local municipalities, and everything else you can imagine. It only takes two or three of those to offset the goodwill created by a thousand others. I've been in eastern Iowa at the time of Ragbrai on a few occasions (some family live nearby) and hear a significantly mixed view on Ragbrai.

In addition, local governments worry because hundreds of local citizens without meaningful cycling experience and skill will bring out their clunkers or borrow bikes and ride their local leg of Ragbrai; some of this riding is pretty scary. I wouldn't want to ride near them myself.

[csm]

I wonder if the counties can actually do this? If they are state rds....
I am planning on doing this next year. My dad has ridden it for the last 3 years and my 14 yo did it last year as well. I have a vw pop-up eurovan as a support vehicle.
anyone want to go?

[djg]

This ignores a fundamental principle of American jurisprudence: if something bad happens to me, it is someone elses fault and they should be required to compensate me and my lawyers. No exceptions.

Um, sometimes it is somebody else's fault, isn't it? I have no idea what happened in Iowa, but when I was in college I was injured just riding along on brand new pavement. I was injured because the road crew had -- for reasons I never learned -- come back to excavate a hole around a manhole cover and pipe. So there was a pit a couple of feet deep and about six feet across with a big metal pipe in the center and the pit was hard to see because it had nice neat edges and the walls of the hole were the same flat black as the surrounding road surface. The front wheel of my bike broke in half when I hit the thing. No warning signs, no flares, no nothing. Now I understand about assumption of risk, but it seems to me that this was well beyond the pale of uneven pavement and pot holes that folks should expect to deal with here and there. I had to be taken away in an ambulance; I had to have physical therapy; and it was months before I could ride again. I know that people avoid all sorts of things. At times, I've been amazed by what I've been able to avoid or endure without going down. But really, my accident seemed to me mostly the product of somebody else's thoughtlessness -- the physical setup was the "accident waiting to happen" and I happened into it. If you think I got rich off the law suit, you're mistaken -- I was a healthy young guy with no permanent injuries and I never expected, and never was encouraged to expect, a fortune. In the end, I received two thirds of a 7,500 buck settlement. That took care of the bike and gave me a few grand besides, and maybe it was enough to get a couple of fools on the road crew yelled at enough to make them think a bit the next time.

[gone]

Um, sometimes it is somebody else's fault, isn't it?
Certainly. I've recently had my own issue (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=34135) with poor road maintenance. I now have some medical bills to deal with not to mention a pretty fantastic amount of pain and suffering which I'll get to enjoy for quite some time (I've been eating through a straw for 2 weeks now). A case could certainly be made that the cattle guard in question was poorly maintained (in fact, broken) and I'm reasonably certain I would prevail in a lawsuit or at least manage a settlement.

I choose to take the point of view that roads are not perfect, I knew that going in and I tried to take reasonable (more than reasonable, actually) precautions to mitigate that. I did that in this case but the angle of the cattle guard along with the slope of the road and the particular way it was broken made it virtually impossible to detect even with more than due care. Just wasn't my day, s**t happens, etc. A lawsuit might satisfy the desire to "punish" somebody for my misfortune but it won't make it hurt any less.
I have notified the NM roads department about the cattle guard in question (in writing) and it's my hope that they repair it.

In the RAGBRAI case, I certainly don't pretend to know the facts involved. I do know that, settlement nonwithstanding, the rider in question is still dead. I've ridden RAGBRAI and enjoyed it very much. I hope it's able to continue in our litigious society.