A BIG question for the frame builders on the forum...

[William]

What do you take into consideration when building a frame for large, aggressive, powerful riders? Material, tubing, angles, lugged vs. tig welded?

So far, the "production" bikes that I've ridden I've turned into wet noodles. I think that they just take the same tubing and geometry and expanded it out to make a larger bike. Not really taking too much consideration for the larger forces that could likely be applied by larger, more powerful riders.
My first custom frame was a disappointment in the beginning only because (in hindsight) I don't feel that the builder took me too seriously about what kind of forces I know I can generate when laying down the power. The second time around was better but I was pretty turned off by the experience by that point. Ben & Co, did a fine job and I felt like they took me seriously in the frame they built for me. I will be honest and say that there is a small amount of dead feel (slight lack of crispness) in the handling that I like, but that might just be a trade off to get the stiffness I need in the BB...I don't know.

Why do I ask?
My wife is softening on the issue of getting another custom built for me. She still wants me to keep costs down as much as possible though. I had been looking around for used frames, but honestly, for what I need, there is practically nothing out there. So, with the advances in tubing and materials, I would like to be (in the words of DWF) edumacated on what the frame builder POV is on building frames for the likes of me and similar ilk out in the world.

Thank you in advance!

William

[Too Tall]

Willm, we are cut from similar cloth and you do pay a price for being uh...special but only in as much that effort required to make a great ride is high and meebbe rarified. I had two customs that ARE junk (name withheld cause it makes my mad) and one really great one (ClarkKent) before Serotta built my Ti Legend...heaven.

Kelly B. and Smiley teamed to design/build what is one of the finest custom Ti rigs for a tall guy EVER. No, you don't have to give up any "crispness" or lively feel if you are careful with design. My next move will no doubt be a custom CSI. Aside from Serotta I have confidence a guy like Matt Barkley and Dario P. could do you right.

If you are ever in my neck-o-the-woods. BYO saddle and I'll fit you onto my Legend. I'll need the keys to your Porsche and fingerprints first ;)

[William]

Issue numba two:

Do you think longer crank length has much of an impact on the BB? Just like when your trying to loosen a bolt with a socket wrench and it's stuck, put a breaker bar on it to increase the leverage to break it free. In comparing crank length of say 172.5 or 175 to 180mm, do you think there are differences in the forces that are applied that would be large enough that they should be taken into consideration?


William

[William]

Kelly B. and Smiley teamed to design/build what is one of the finest custom Ti rigs for a tall guy EVER. No, you don't have to give up any "crispness" or lively feel if you are careful with design.

Interesting, I always thought that I would pretty much have to stick with Steel. I like steel. But I did always wonder what all the hub-bub about Ti was. That hearting to hear, I like a snappy/crisp handling ride and thought that I might have to give it up to get proper sizing.

If you are ever in my neck-o-the-woods. BYO saddle and I'll fit you onto my Legend. I'll need the keys to your Porsche and fingerprints first

I might take you up on that. And believe me, if there was a Porsche in the family, my wife wouldn't let me near it ;) . How about the keys to my Dodge and a paw print from our Basset Hound? :D


William

[Too Tall]

Basset hounds rul...bring him. No MiniVans.

Yeah of course, longer lever arms more tangentinal force..also, my impression and gut feeling is that TALL riders issues with frame flex are affected more by their actual height above the BB esp. out of the saddle rather than pedaling forces measure from hips down.

I picked Ti becuase of two things. Ben claimed he could build a Ti bike that I'd love eg. stiff and durability. Cha Ching! When I hop on my (steel) SLX Clark Kent the similarities are scary. Keep in mind the genius of Kelly and Co. with materials design. If you (yah big ape) asked for a super light weight Ti bike that sprints well he might ask you to reconsider. My Ti frame is no featherweight. Rigged out with uberwheels and common DA stuff it's something like 21lbs....unless ZAP has filled the seattube with lead shot again.

[Ahneida Ride]

In my case, Serotta oversized the tubing and used the Rapid Tour
chain stays. Shorter top tube. Bike is perfect.

I have little doubt that Serotta specializes in Clysdale Legends and can build
the frame of you dreams. But Garbage in, Garbage out. Kelly needs to know
how you want this puppy to ride.

[William]

Yeah of course, longer lever arms more tangentinal force..also, my impression and gut feeling is that TALL riders issues with frame flex are affected more by their actual height above the BB esp. out of the saddle rather than pedaling forces measure from hips down.

I have the feeling that you're spot-on. I know that when I'm out of the saddle sprinting balls to the walls is when if feel the most "squish" in a frame. I could make that old Fuji Roubaix flex enough to get it to shift gears by itself...if spokes didn't start breaking first. I think where I start treading into that "freak-O-nature" range is my body make-up. I'm very tall, but I also carry a lot of muscle mass, especially my lower body. I'm built like a tree trunk. During the off season my weight training program includes leg presses where I'm working up to 1,100+ lbs. for reps (spinning before & after with lots of stretching in between). I love making the roid boys shake their heads. The point being (and I hate sounding like I'm pulling my own chain) that with my sprinting style and longer cranks, I know I'm creating some crazy forces on the frame that most bikes don't encounter, even big ones.


I have little doubt that Serotta specializes in Clysdale Legends and can build
the frame of you dreams. But Garbage in, Garbage out. Kelly needs to know
how you want this puppy to ride

I don't think my first custom builder believed me...and I broke it for him. The second one faired better but as I said before, I was pretty disgusted by that point. With the CSI I had built, I have a feeling that my LBS thought they knew what I needed better than I did. Maybe all the info didn't make through the middle man? Maybe it did? Anyway, don't get me wrong, I do really like it. It has a smooth and true, solid ride. Great on long rides. It just lacks some of the quick handling characteristics I like in a bike. I'm willing to let Serotta & co. try again. I believe To Tall knows of what he speaks and his word is worth considering. If I do, I would prefer to work directly with them instead of going through a middle man again.


William

[Andreu]

Find out what Magnus Backstedt does....he is a big chap by all accounts.
Might be worth doing a web search just to get some ideas?
A

[Needs Help]

...my weight training program includes leg presses where I'm working up to 1,100+ lbs. for reps...

Woweee!! I don't think I've seen a leg press machine where you could fit 10+ plates on each side. Is that some special Gold's Gym type machine, or does your gym have larger than 45lb plates?

[Ahneida Ride]

William,

If Serotta can't build the appropiate frame, at least they will tell you.

You have really no option, but to call Serotta and chat with Kelly,
their chief designer. He'll give ya the scoop.

Serotta used to offer a supersized Tubing. I suspect it was for guys
like you.

My Serotta is a 64 Rapid Tour Legend. If you weigh between 220 and
270 it should easliy accomodate you. You are welcome to demo it.

NH,

They do make 100 lb plates.

[William]

Is that some special Gold's Gym type machine, or does your gym have larger than 45lb plates?

The old gym that I went to had an old custom built machine that I could put one 100lbs plate and eight 45's on each side. They only had two 100lbs plates which is why I had to use so many 45's. Then I would pile about five more 45's on top of the sled. The gym I'm at now has plenty of 100's.


My Serotta is a 64 Rapid Tour Legend. If you weigh between 220 and
270 it should easliy accomodate you. You are welcome to demo it.

I weigh in at 255-260 and stand 6', 6" tall. Thanks, the offer is very much appreciated.
I think that I fall into the part of the bell curve that is "experimental" for most frame builders. I could be wrong but that's the feeling I get after asking around a bit. I'm sure Serotta can do it as well as a few other builders. Like you said, good communication is key.
BION, I was actually told by one builder that guys like me shouldn't ride. He was probably kidding but he kept a pretty serious poker face. :confused: :rolleyes:


William the Big Ape :D

[Smiley]

William , when we built the Legend Ti for Too Tall we built it with one design goal , NO BB FLEX and this bike stands today as an example of what Serotta can do. It was built with non stock very oversized tubes, I saw the tandems serotta built and this frame has these tubes in the main traingle. I think you'll have to wait for these tubes to be available as Needs Help was awiting the shipment of something in this range. If enough of you BIG guys place orders with Serotta they will get these gonzo tubes in. Too Tall is a machine and if anybody can flex a frame using 180 mm cranks with his leverage ...I'd bet on the Big guy every time. Fact is too Tall could probably ride with 190 mm cranks if someone made them. Best of luck in your quest and your better served in talking to the factory or like Too Tall did see Serotta ( Ben ) and challenge him to build you a no flex frame.

[Ahneida Ride]

William.

I'm 6'4 about 245 right now. I should be at 225. I have riden this frame
at 250+. So it will easily take your weight. I see you reside in RI.
Perhaps we could both drive and meet halfway ? This way you could
offer Kelly some specific feeback on one particular large beefy frame.
I think this would provide Kelly with valuable insight.

My LBS guru has fitted numerous big/tall guys. One in particular was a NFL
or NBA monster. 6'6 to 6'8 and 275 Lb, The First thing Rick did was to
call the factory and ask if Serotta could build a machine for this guy.
The factory replied "sure" . He purchase a CIII.

The real problem was finding someone to test ride it before delivery.

Visit the Serotta Photo gallery and the 2003 open house gallery.
About 6 picts in, there is one of Kelly and my bike. Note the
beefed up chain stays.

I understand your predicament. I could not find a "balll park" bike
to demo either and had to take a leap of faith. Serotta got it spot on.
I suspect that you will take a 65 at least. I've seen a 65/66 Ottrott
( also fitted by Rick ) at the Serotta Grand opening. It looked just
fine.


William, I hope this helps,

[Needs Help]

Too Tall is a machine and if anybody can flex a frame using 180 mm cranks with his leverage ...I'd bet on the Big guy every time.

I'll take William AND give you 2:1 odds. :beer:

[Peter]

William,

The only and BEST way to get it right is to order ANOTHER Serotta. You need to tell them, "I own a frame with serial number "x". Look up the specs. This is what I like about it (fill in the blank). This is what I don't like (fill in the blank). And this is how I want my new frame to ride, compared to my existing frame."

You absolutely, positively need your existing frame specs to provide a frame of reference for comparison with the qualities you desire in your new frame. That's why you should stay with Serotta-they'll have the specs of the existing frame and you'll both be speaking the same language. You can pick many other qualified builders out there but you'll be practically starting out at ground zero again if you choose that route.

[Peter]

William,

The only and BEST way to get it right is to order ANOTHER Serotta. You need to tell them, "I own a frame with serial number "x". Look up the specs. This is what I like about it (fill in the blank). This is what I don't like (fill in the blank). And this is how I want my new frame to ride, compared to my existing frame (fill in the blank)."

You absolutely, positively need your existing frame specs to provide a frame of reference for comparison with the qualities you desire in your new frame. That's why you should stay with Serotta-they'll have the specs of the existing frame and you'll both be speaking the same language. You can pick many other qualified builders out there (Lennard Zinn comes to mind; and he makes custom, extra long cranks, too!) but you'll be practically starting out at ground zero again if you choose that route.

Serotta came close the first time; now let them hit the bullseye.

[Needs Help]

Peter,

If a builder screws up your first frame, then order another one from him because then he has a better frame of reference? That could get expensive. :confused:

[Ahneida Ride]

Nh,

William did not indicate that Serotta screwed up. Actually, he claimed they
did a "fine job". He seems very pleased with this iteration.

The real question is. Currently, what builder has the highest
probability of creating William's perfect frame ?

[Bruce H.]

I am riding a stock steel Rapid Tour. I am 6'2" and about 240 right now. (Stress induced wt. gain) I have put over 4,000 miles on it and I work the pedals hard (speedplay zeros).
I have had no problems to date and absolutely love riding this bike.
Bruce H. [who leg presses a hefty 220 lbs on my best day!] :rolleyes:

[Too Tall]

Y'all quit trying to start a big guy war. Don't you know...us "freaks" are at peace. Willms leg pressing ability is too cool. We are very different smokes. If we were on a team together I'd be the guy who is placed second to last in the sprint line and he'd be the closer.

Peter, surprisingly Serotta and Co. might not retain specs. for all their bikes made. At least, this was my experiance when calling regards a used frame made in (93?).

[Roy E. Munson]

I hate to break this to you guys, but being big and having gym lifts does NOT make one a great sprinter. How many bozo's do you meet who think because they go to the gym and are heavy that they would tear the leg's of everyone in a sprint. Weightlifting strength has very little transference (if that's a word) to the bike. As an off-season training supplement, weight lifting is not bad, but on the bike strength is best done on the bike. Training the legs in the gym during a cycling season is ridiculous if you want to be a good cyclist.

[Roy E. Munson]

As a note, I'm not calling any of you bozo's. ;)

[Andreu]

Interestingly I thought Petacchi was a big guy...

Height : 1m85
Weight : 75 kg

In real money thats 165.3 pounds.

Magnus Backstedt on the other hand is 1,93 m and 90 kg (198.4 pounds)

I guess there is a big range of sizes, shapes and weights that can sprint.
A

[William]

If a builder screws up your first frame, then order another one from him because then he has a better frame of reference? That could get expensive.

AR is correct. Serotta did a good job on the frame I recieved. I just don't think it's exactly what I asked for. I place more of the onus on the lbs than Serotta. We had some differences on what I wanted and what they felt I needed. Bottom line, at this point I can't prove it either way.


Y'all quit trying to start a big guy war. Don't you know...us "freaks" are at peace.

Yeah, us big freaky guys are usually pretty laid back....but the "Walk sofltly and carry a big stick" rule usually applies here. :D

HEY ROY!! YOU CALLING ME BOZO MAN??!!! :butt: :no:

:D

I hate to break this to you guys, but being big and having gym lifts does NOT make one a great sprinter. How many bozo's do you meet who think because they go to the gym and are heavy that they would tear the leg's of everyone in a sprint. Weightlifting strength has very little transference (if that's a word) to the bike. As an off-season training supplement, weight lifting is not bad, but on the bike strength is best done on the bike. Training the legs in the gym during a cycling season is ridiculous if you want to be a good cyclist.

No one claimed that having big lifts makes you a good sprinter. Go back and read. The only reason I brought up the lifting was to illustrate that I can create some very heavy forces on a frame and that should be taken into consideration when a chosen builder is trying to build me one. As I said, my first custom builder didn't believe me and I broke the frame for him.

Now, lifting is part of my off-season training and I spin before, strectch in between sets, and spin after to keep my muscles loose and add that cycling specific muscle memory to the mix. I don't advocate this for anyone but my self. Does it work for sprinting ability? It works for me.


I see you reside in RI.
Perhaps we could both drive and meet halfway ? This way you could
offer Kelly some specific feeback on one particular large beefy frame.
I think this would provide Kelly with valuable insight.

AR, I might have to take you up on the offer. :cool:


William (The ape lifting sprinter) :D

[Roy E. Munson]

The only reason I brought up the lifting was to illustrate that I can create some very heavy forces on a frame and that should be taken into consideration when a chosen builder is trying to build me one. As I said, my first custom builder didn't believe me and I broke the frame for him.

Are you lifting the frame or riding it? Again, what difference does weightlifting have on riding?

[flydhest]

Roy,

It has a lot to do with it. Now . . . I won't argue that he who can press the most sprints the best. Far from it. In fact, I would look at the two separately, find me someone who has really strong legs but isn't all that fast in a sprint, and I'll probably show you someone who hurts frames. Really good sprinting is often about using the bike correctly to transfer your strength to going forward---fast. If you have a lot of strength and aren't the fastest sprinter, the effort is likely going somewhere. This is a good recipe for broken frames.

I don't know anything at all about William. Some strong guys who have smooth strokes break frames just from the forces doing their things. Others break frames due to a less than great pedal stroke that can torque the hell out of a frame.

[Ahneida Ride]

Hey Big Galooth,

Demo ride is available any time. My Pleasure.

Send me a E-mail or PM.

Finding the right LBS/Fitter is the Key. The fitter needs to accurately
present you to Serotta. Garbage in = Garbage out.

Good Luck and Best Regards,

[zap]

Weight lifting is one of the best ways to gain strength for cycling. Heavy weights should only be done in the off season and done in conjunction with cycling after weights reaps maximum benefits. Keep it up William!

Typically you will lose peak strength as the cycling season progresses, but you are getting fitter and losing weight as your speed improves. I had my best cycling season after I was able to squat 325 lbs.

Too Tall is correct in that the riders height needs to be factored in. IMO, the taller you are, the stronger the frame needs to be. For example, a rider that's 6'7" ;) , weighs 205lbs will need a stronger frame than a rider equally talented thats 6'0" and weighs the same (205lbs).

[Roy E. Munson]

Weight lifting is one of the best ways to build strength for cycling. For the inexperienced cyclist, yes. For a seasoned cyclist, not the case. Strength is best built on the bike.

I think height is important because as the bike gets bigger, the tubes get longer. I could very likely be wrong, but I think it's an accurate statement.

[zap]

It works for me and many others who have plenty of experience including USCF racing. I've been cycling for 18 years and started weight training when I got involved in a national decathlon training program in Canada some 27 years ago. Kept it up when I competed in Track events and Biathlons (yes, the real one w/rifles).

Plenty of Pro's use weight training in the off season as well.

Weight training is also fun and helps burn a few extra calories during the off season. The additional benefit of weight training is that it helps strengthen bones.

Roy. Try it. You might like it.

:beer:

[Roy E. Munson]

I was a competitive powerlifter, so I know a tad about weight lifting, which is why I don't use weight training for my legs. None of those little knee bend squats either - deep, full squats. Cat 2 USCF racer as well. Lifting is FAR more damaging to muscles than cycling, so it takes forever to recover. Far better results using on the bike resistance training. You should try it, you might like it.

[zap]

I agree with you that little knee bends are useless. Ditto on weights causing more muscle damage, hence weights in the off season.

Yes, resistance training on the bike is an important training method as well. As are intervals, etc.... I do it all but could probably do with more interval training during the season.

[William]

Well Roy,
Then you would also know that the body will only adapt to the stress that is applied to it. Power is what propels you forward on every pedal stroke. Power is what moves you up the hill, power is what moves you to the line in all out balls-to-the-walls sprints. The more power you can develop, the easier it is to propel your weight forward. If all you do is ride the bike, then you adapt to carrying your body weight on the bike. If you adapt to carrying your body weight + the strength you've built with weight training, moving just your body weight becomes easier.

You would also know that 1,100 lbs on a leg press is allot different then trying to squat that same amount. A lot less stress on the joints, back and knees since the press carries a portion of the weight. I don't do squats myself due to a back injury when I was rowing competitivley. I have no joint problems at all. Well, I do on my hands but that's from full contaqct stickfighting, not lifting. :D

Weight training is called for by Eddie B., and he's not just refering to track riders either. I would say that the majority of pro cyclists use some form of weight training in the off-season. Every major sport has been improved by better training involving weight training. With that said, you have to know how to apply it for whatever sport you're involved with. I have been involved in competitve sports all my life and I know what works for me. I'm a power rider and devlop lower body strength easily. The reason why I can sprint and climb well for somone my size is because of my power training and how I apply it for cycling. I will clarify the sprinting part, I'm not talking about that jack-rabbit quickness to get up to speed. I'm more of a drag racer with a long wind-up. With the big gears, I'll start my sprint much farther out than most people, I have the power and the spinning ability to wind it up and hold top speed longer than most people. When most sprinters try to come around, there's nothing left because I've already spun them out. I've won and placed enough to claissify it as successful for me.
I'm also a power climber. Sit in the saddle and power up. I know that the weight training is helping to carry my 255-260 lbs arse up the hill. Pressing for reps in the off-season makes it a heck of a lot eaiser. Of course you have to take into consideration that your training for cycling, not power lifting or body building. And, you still have to work on spinning to stay on top of the gears. It's not just about mashing strength.
Not much more I can say. I know hitting the weights helps me. Many other elite level coaches call for it as well. If you don't need it, more power to you. But trying to use a blanket statement that,...

"Weight lifting is one of the best ways to build strength for cycling. For the inexperienced cyclist, yes. For a seasoned cyclist, not the case".

...sounds to me like an your own opinion. Of course, that's just MY opinion. I think we all know the old saying about opinions. :rolleyes: But look at most elite level training programs and you will certainly find weight training as a part of them.

Bottom line, I know what works for me.


William

[William]

Hey Big Galooth,

Demo ride is available any time. My Pleasure.

Send me a E-mail or PM.


AR,
Again,
Thank you very much, and I'll be in touch. :cool:


William (Grape Ape) :)

[djg]

I've never had one of his bikes, so I'm going by rep only, but he's about your height and a former US team member and I believe he's especially interested in (and experienced at) building frames for larger/taller riders. It might be worth talking to him.

[William]

I had never seen a Zinn up close other than a competitors TT bike at the TT nats in Seattle (1995 I think). It was a consideration, Mr. Zinn sent me all the lit and I spoke with him over the phone once about possibly building one for me. I knew a number of racers that had Serottas and liked them. Also the lbs that I went to convinced me that Serotta could make what I needed. So, in the end...



On frames:

This weekend my wife asked me to get her bike out of storage and clean it up (WOO-HOO!!). We picked up a barely used105 equipped, Specialized Allez for her a number of years ago. It was on sale, the price was right, and it fit her. When my bike was done up for team colors I threw hers in too. I cleaned this puppy up, waxed it and put new tubes and tires on it and it looks brand spanking new. Looking at it struck me as to how well we represent the extremes of the Bell curve. I'm riding a 63 and I still have roughly 23 cm of post showing (top of lug to top of saddle). My wifes bike is has a 43 cm ST with about 16 cm of post showing. Her TT slopes down a bit and and it's almost the same height as the back tire. Tiny, tiny, tiny.

It could be good for me that she's getting back into riding...maybe she'll be more likely to ok the custom? Then again, she'll be taking up more disposable income for her gear... :confused: Nah! It's all good! :cool:

"Hey William, how the heck do you two....."

Ah, ah, ah!! I don't want to hear any of that!!! :no: :no: :no:


William

[SBash]

Hey William!

Have you thought of a Merckx MX Leader if they have one in your size. I'am just a little wimpy dude of 210/215 lbs and right now riding a 60cm Merckx ALU Team and one of the best bikes i have ridden. It is heavy (22lbs) but stout & stable, feels a lot lighter than that and hauls up hills. You might ask the Jerk what he thinks. I will either get a MX Leader or have Dave Kirk build something similar next. I emailed Dave Kirk awhile back and he is the man for this.

SB
PS: I think William, Too Tall, and Ahneida Ride should lead Lance on flat stages. There job, nobody gets by except Lance. Could you imagine those 3 monsters 3 across leading the way.

[dirtdigger88]

Hey William,

You are not going to beat up Roy are you? I you are, wait about a week- he is going to owe me a case of N/A IPA when Lance wins. Then you two can get down to clubbing each other to death

Jason

[William]

Hey William,

You are not going to beat up Roy are you? I you are, wait about a week- he is going to owe me a case of N/A IPA when Lance wins. Then you two can get down to clubbing each other to death


:D :D :D :D :D


You guys trying to get us bigguns going again??? :D

Nah, we just disagree. It hasn't progressed to the clubbing stage yet. :D

[William]

Have you thought of a Merckx MX Leader if they have one in your size. I'am just a little wimpy dude of 210/215 lbs and right now riding a 60cm Merckx ALU Team and one of the best bikes i have ridden. It is heavy (22lbs) but stout & stable, feels a lot lighter than that and hauls up hills. You might ask the Jerk what he thinks. I will either get a MX Leader or have Dave Kirk build something similar next. I emailed Dave Kirk awhile back and he is the man for this.

Sbash,

I've had a few others suggest the MX as well. I haven't looked into them to much yet. I had a team mate who rode an MX and he always said he loved it as well. Because of our size diffrences I never got to try it out.

I don't know too much about Mr. Kirks rides. He seems to be highly recomended. I was hoping he would weigh in on this issue as well.

William

[William]

PS: I think William, Too Tall, and Ahneida Ride should lead Lance on flat stages. There job, nobody gets by except Lance. Could you imagine those 3 monsters 3 across leading the way.

A line from the movie Independance Day comes to mind here:

"All right gentleman....let's PLOW the road!!" :cool:



William

[Too Tall]

ROTFLMAO :)
We don't need no steeeenkin draft.

[Ahneida Ride]

Have to agree with William on this one.

Seems like Uncle William is riding a 63. This seems small, especially for
William's size and especially since William perfers to sit on hills. Methinks
that a 64 or 65 would better suit him.

With a larger frame (64 ), I can sit on hills while others are standing.
This is a distinct advantage.

I still think that Dbrk is right. Fist full of post showing. If not,
then consider a larger frame. I see too many bigger guys on
60 or so frames. And they think the frame fits them !!!!

[William]

Seems like Uncle William is riding a 63. This seems small, especially for
William's size and especially since William perfers to sit on hills. Methinks
that a 64 or 65 would better suit him.

With a larger frame (64 ), I can sit on hills while others are standing.
This is a distinct advantage.

I still think that Dbrk is right. Fist full of post showing. If not,
then consider a larger frame. I see too many bigger guys on
60 or so frames. And they think the frame fits them !!!!

Gee, thanks AR, make feel like I got reamed even more than I thought I did :rolleyes: ;) :)

I can grab almost two fists of post in my grubby lil'big hands. I've always thought this thing had a bit of post showing. But hey, I thought they knew how to use that Serotta size cycle. :crap: :crap: :crap:

Too many years, and living across the country from where I got it likely counts out any recourse on the matter.

I'm going to go ride it.....INTO THE BAY!!!

William

Just kidding. :D But it does tick me off.

[Ahneida Ride]

WOW !!!

Dat's a lot ! My fitter suggested a 65. I talked him down to a 64.
Perhaps for sprinting a smaller frame is of benefit ? I dunno.
But from a comfort perspective, that is like me on a 60.

Isn't that constant bent over position uncomfortable and perhaps
contributing to back issues ?

Personally, I think a 66 is closer to reality.

I wonder what size Smiley stuck T**2 with ?

63 ? William, get another fitter !!!!!! :no:

[H.Frank Beshear]

I was leading out my friend Erroll a year or so back,before he had his knee replaced and slowed down a bit :banana: :D . He wanted to to know what my heart rate was "To da** high " Was the my response. "Its like following a boxcar I hardley have to pedal". Other words followed not all appropriate :D . I'm 6'2" 212#s, I can only imagine what its like to actually be able to draft someone :beer: Take care all Frank

[William]

Ahhhh. I feel much better after sprint intervals.

Perhaps for sprinting a smaller frame is of benefit ?

That could be a possibility. A smaller triangle should be stronger I would think. One of the things I made clear (at least I thought) was that sprinting (Psuedo/power sprinting if you like) and crit racing was my forte, but I still road raced. I know the type of power I can lay down and I let them know.


Isn't that constant bent over position uncomfortable and perhaps
contributing to back issues ?

Certainly is possible. Let's take a looksee at some random measurements:

ST, C2C is 63cm
TT, C2C is 63cm
Saddle height is 87cm
Saddle (nose) to handlebar reach is 65cm
Saddle height over bars is about 13cm
Stem length is 120
Angle. level/horizontal (zero?)
Bar width is 44cm

Impressions anyone?

I wonder what size Smiley stuck T**2 with ?

Me Too? What's the magic number big 2T?

63 ? William, get another fitter !!!!!!

Grrrrrr! Let me clarify again for every one out there. I don't have a problem with Serotta directly. The frames I recieved where incredibly nice. I can't complain about the customer service afterward. The first frame got damaged in shipping (cosmetic), they gave me a second one at no charge (and a free Serotta jersey). It looks like I have a problem with the folks who represent/present Serotta to the public (the bike shop/Serotta rep). I may have been fitted incorrectly and thus have a frame that is really, too small.
As I said before, if I decide to go with Serotta, I won't work with any middle men...I'M GOING STRAIGHT TO THE TOP AR!! THE TOP!!!

William

[William]

ROTFLMAO
We don't need no steeeenkin draft.

:D :D :D


William

[BigMac]

Big Will:

You are definitely on the right track but I do believe I may be able to provide some personal perspective. No I am not your size and perhaps not your strength but quite possibly a similar pedalling style/cadence. I am a relatively diminutive 6'2" 227lb and yes I do own a 64/61 Legend as well as a few lugged steel frames.

I do not believe you will find ANY stock frame that will appropriately meet both your size and strength/stiffness/durability needs. Aluminum and plastic is similarly a poor choice for your needs. Ti is similarly a poor choice with the lone exception of the Legend. Steel can be a very good choice however with some notable compromises albeit at considerable savings versus a Legend.

If you do choose a Legend, it of course will be big $$ but it is in my opinion a "lifetime" investment. I have over 80k miles on my Legend, it's as lively, stable and fun as its maiden ride. I do believe fork choice will be difficult, I use the discontinued F1. I have no real experience with Serotta's F2 but given its Ouzo origins I have very serious doubts about its performance under heavy, aggresive loads such as you and I. The recently introduced Reynolds Peloton is a vast improvement over the Pro in terms of torsional stiffness and feel but it still lags well behind the F1's feel and predictability. I would probably look at a TT Alpha Q or a custom steel fork if I were in your shoes.

I did spend nearly a month (1200+ miles in total) riding a friends Seven Axiom, he is very similar size as you, only 2" shorter. He is a recently retired NFL player of considerable strength and fitness, albeit a bit rougher cadence than I. His frame was custom designed 63/60, moderate sloping TT with stiffest tubes available to Seven at that time (I could be wrong but I have seen no indication Seven can provide larger diameter(stiffer) tubeset). That frame had so little torsional stiffness for its size that I had little trouble causing RD upshifting under moderately hard pedalling loads. That however was not the frames' biggest problem, it had a downright scary front-end stability/shimmy problem that I had not encountered since i had one of those ridiculously light steel Moulton/Fuso's from mid 80's. Nobody building Ti frames has Serotta's Legend tubes which is the only way to really build a frame suitable for your size. You need sufficient TT stiffness to mitigate shimmy/stability issues and fat enough DT and ST to provide sufficient BB stiffness under load. I would also request straight cs's on my Legend, in lieu of the swoopy "S" curve one's. Straight stays are a bit stiffer and your stays will likely be a bit on the long side at maybe 42.25 or more if you use a slack ST angle as I suspect is needed given your size. Longer stays also provide greater clearence for fatter tires which is generally a very good thing for big riders -- 25mm or fatter sewups, never leave home w/o'em. FWIW: my buddy gave his Seven to his little bro' after riding my Legend, he now has his own Legend. Until he rode mine he just had no clue how responsive and stable a Ti frame could be.

So if Legend is beyond your budget, steel can be a very fine choice. Understand however that steel has a somewhat finite life, particularly under the loads provided by you. I have had many steel frames over the years and have been relatively vigilent in maintaining mileage logs, never has one lasted 30k miles w/o a failure, NEVER! Now some were experimental/demo mistakes like my 2 Fuso's but most were custom lugged steel from a plethora of the world's most reknowned custom steel fabricators. A few broke at DT below HT lug, the vaunted "canopener" effect, a few more at base of ST and one at DT base just above BB. Most however failed at right cs, a few mm's behind BB lug, beginning with a crack that when left unchecked resulted in a full wrap-around fracture of cs tube. Most fortunately did not even result in a fall, some however did require a lengthy walk back to civilization.

The real choice for you, imo, is whether you are interested in the slightly smoother, far costlier but lifetime durability of a properly fitted Legend or a custom steel frame for 1/2 the cost, a minimum of 20k miles of servicabilty before a repair is required (if properly designed and built, of course) not to mention the wonderful ride and aesthetics of custom lugged steel. A CSi is certainly an option, as is a Sachs although those both seem like more 'boutique' choices given their relative cost/value. For 30-40% less $$ you could get a similarly beautifully crafted steel frame that will provide equal servicability, probably with far shorter wait. I have personally purchased 2 lugged steel frames in the last 4 years from 2 highly experienced and respected builders nearly half-way around the world from one another. Without any tubing input from me, they chose nearly identical tubesets, semi-custom drawn. In both cases, they used Deda 0.1 (aka Zero Uno) DT's, a vanadium-enriched steel alloy very similar to Columbus Nivacrom. What's unique about these tubes is not the alloy, it's the diameter. Deda provides a tapered(swaged) DT that's 32mm at HT and 35mm at BB, for reference sake a 'traditional' 531 steel DT was 28.6mm (1 1/8") OD. Deda stocks these in something like 0.8mm/0.6mm/0.8mm butting. They will however custom butt these tubes in one-off order if builder has an account with Deda, mine were butted 0.9/0.7/0.9, I was told they can draw as thick as 1.0mm ends if requested. The end result is a very firm BB, not too stiff, just very firm for my size, strength and usage. The TT used by my local builder was a Columbus sourced tube intended for a mtb DT but he was able to find appropriate lugs to fit the tubes OD w/o resorting to 1 1/8" HT or odd-sized seatpin. My custom italian built frame employed more custom drawn tubes throughout, all sourced from Deda using same steel alloy. The result in both cases is superb high-speed stabilty, firm yet resilient ride with proper torsional stiffness at pedals. No, I have not broken either frame but I have no reason to suspect these frames will not fail at somepoint around 25k mark. FWIW: the local bike is a fixed gear and the italian bike resides at my home in Italy which I am at approximately 10 weeks/yr.

Proper sizing is a whole separate issue, as others have noted I too would agree that a 63cm frame seems too small, especially if you're at 2 fists of seatpin. Now some builders will promote 'compact' frames as a means of improving torsional stiffness on large frames. Much like fat, round cs's, this is a REALLY bad idea attempting to compensate for inadequate tubing designs and poor engineering. A big rider will put greater load on seatpin binder, particularly if you're a seated, gear-grinder type which will eventually lead to seatpin failure or seatpin binder failure, either of which could lead to very serious injury. Get a bigger frame. Be sure when you are being fitted that you specify crank arm length and pedal choice. While I am 4" shorter than you -- just barely a fistful of seatpin exposed -- my ST is 1cm longer, measured c-c. Yes, I do have long pbh for my height, I do pedal toes down at bottom of stroke and I use relatively long 177.5 cranks which all contribute to my proper ST height.

If you do choose a Legend, it is possible your wait for frame build may be longer than most if proper tubes are not readily available. I do not know if they regularly stock largest diameter tubes or if these must be special ordered, in fact I believe Serotta has made a few changes to tube sourcing since I bought mine 5 1/2 years ago. My frame did take 2-3 weeks longer than was typical for a Legend per my LBS, maybe it was the paint (a very simple design w/o most decals) or perhaps it was the specially drawn tubes. I do know that at the time I owned a Cannondale Mtb and the DT on my Legend measured at BB was nearly identical OD as the massive Cannondale tubes, the TT on Legend, measured at forward end near HT, is larger diameter than the Cannondale TT. I have had my Legend over 60mph on local mountain descents w/o a single incidence of shimmy or similar stability concerns. These are the ultimate big guy bikes, ime.

The Merckx MXL is likely not built large enough for you, I fit the 63cm(largest size available) and its an absolute perfect fit for my size... and yes I have broken all 3 MXL's I have owned. If you do choose steel, be sure to get silver-brazed lugged steel construction. This is in my experience the best combination of strength AND ease of repair. Remember, just because a tube fails after 25k miles or so, a properly designed and built steel frame can be repaired and likely provide another 25k miles or so before again needing repair. In most cases, i have had my failed frames repaired and they again rode nearly as good as new, after 2 repairs though they seem to have lost much of the steel's life or resilience.

As an aside, I would recommend you change your lifting regimen to lunges and squats. Those inverted leg press machines do not provide a balanced workout and can be very hard on hip flexor and low back injuries. Proper weight training CAN improve explosiveness in sprinting but pedal stroke efficiency is the quickest way to improving speed.

Sorry for being so long winded, this is a topic for which I have endured alot over the years. Besides I'm stuck in a DoubleTree in Tulsa with 14 little 13 year olds and I figured if I get on this computer, the rest of the parents will have to put the kids to bed :D Best of luck to, glad to see some more big boy riders.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Too Tall]

D##ds! F.Y.I. am riding a 64X64 with a 110 stem and lots of setback and 'zactly a fistful of seatpost showing. Maybe it's because I'm an even ape. The business of setting the HT size and TT height is still a tough calculation for me esp. with aesthetic considerations.

[bostondrunk]

William,

What races/crits have you won? I am somewhat of a sprinting specialist myself, and wonder if we have bumped heads in NE? Although I don't recall sprinting against anyone who was 8 inches taller than me... :bike:

[William]

BIG MAC,

Long winded? Not at all. Very interesting reading. Thank you for taking the time to write up the post on your experiences with tubing and big bike building. It’s very much appreciated. Hey, your being holed up in Tulsa is our gain.

According to you and Too Tall, the Legend might be the way to go. At this point I don’t know what were talking in $$$ but I’m already wincing at what it might be.

I’ve often wondered why they didn’t use larger diameter tubing. Esp in the chain stays. AR commented that his ride had pretty beefy ones. The seat stays & pin also seem a bit thin for the size of the frame, esp with the amount of post that shows to accommodate my size. I hate to think what would happen if that let go…OUCH!! I’m running 180mm cranks that put me into the position on the saddle that I’m at.

You mentioned fracture of the cs tube. Did you get any warning signs other than a visible crack? Any “tinging”, or popping sounds during hard efforts?

Thanks again, this is exactly the type of info I was looking for.

Too Tall: “an even Ape”. What’s the difference between an even ape, and an odd ape?

Below is a pic from when I first received the bike. You can really see the amount of post showing and the tube choices used. BTW, check out the old school Aerospoke. You want a work out? Put that sucker on and go climb some hills.



William
Team Gorilla
(Where our rider’s daily caloric intake is equivalent to the GVW of a Mack Truck!!)

[William]

Here is another shot with me actually on the bike. Does it look to small? Does my butt look too big? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

William

[William]

William,

What races/crits have you won? I am somewhat of a sprinting specialist myself, and wonder if we have bumped heads in NE? Although I don't recall sprinting against anyone who was 8 inches taller than me...

I just moved out here recently from the west coast so we haven't bumped heads.....yet. ;) :D
You probably won't see me out there this season. But keep an out for me in the next. :)

William

[Too Tall]

When Big Mac suffers we benefit. Be strong my man be strong. walk away from the mini-bar.

Willm', My wingspan is exactly the same as my height (even ape rating). Your crit position is excellent. Yer freakin' thighs are scary.

I wish I could deal with that much drop. After racing season is kerput you should ride my bike and see what happens. I have a Fit stick so we can keep measures after all is said and done. A handful of stems, a few hills and a few espressos later.... If you decide to go for it I'll hook you up with Smiley, who lives about 1 mile from me and can work the frame details and shop sale. I'll build it if you want...lot's of loctite and (yes yes B.M.) Linseed oil too :rolleyes:

Macman, my SLX Clark Kent is doomed? Say it ain't so. 30,000miles +. Good thing I only use it as a backup bike.

[bostondrunk]

What cat do you ride? Will we see you in the cat 2 pack? You should have no trouble with the sprinting I would think, although we might make you suffer when the road tilts up...
Yer bike ain't too small, DBRK's is too big...

[Andreu]

....for someone who weighs 255lbs you carry your weight very well. You are the reason why I need to get into a break and avoid sprinting.
A :beer:

[Ahneida Ride]

Big Mac

Thanks for the distilled wisdom. I always enjoy your posts.
Thanks Prof.


Uncle Willliam,

As Big Mac suggested, I have the straight Beefed up Chain Stays.
I believe my frame has the largest coventional Ti tubes that Serotta
stocks. They do offer an even larger size, I believe on special order.
I did witness one such frame at the factory. Man, these are big tubes !
T**2 frame may be constructed of these.

63 still looks small. :butt:

Too bad the F1 is no longer available. But I ran in to the guy who
built em for Ben. He claims certain "items" in his shop !!!!! Don't tell anyone !
He said that the F1 is the only carbon fork that can pass steel
saftey standards. It was specifically designed to pass this test.

Legends are $$$$$. You should really demo T**2's bike and mine.
You cannot afford an error here.

[William]

As an aside, I would recommend you change your lifting regimen to lunges and squats. Those inverted leg press machines do not provide a balanced workout and can be very hard on hip flexor and low back injuries. Proper weight training CAN improve explosiveness in sprinting but pedal stroke efficiency is the quickest way to improving speed.

I use lunges as well, Heiden style. The closest I get to squats is on the smith machine or hack squats. The leg press is just a component of my training, not the focus. I’m kind of a genetic freak when it comes to my lower body, I have lots of endurance and I can build strength and size quite easily. I have to be careful in how I approach training, I’m not body building here.
As far as pedal stroke efficiency, I’m always concentrating on being smooth on the bike, but even in the gym, I’m spinning before and after lifting to practice that smooth pedal stroke even when my legs are on fire. It’s also good for working out that good old lactic acid build up. :)

Thanks again BM! :cool:

William

[William]

Will we see you in the cat 2 pack? …although we might make you suffer when the road tilts up...

Yup.
And I would expect nothing less. :D


For BD, :beer:


William

[William]

Too bad the F1 is no longer available. But I ran in to the guy who
built em for Ben. He claims certain "items" in his shop !!!!! Don't tell anyone !

Gimme, gimme, gimme!!! :D :D :D

William

[William]

After racing season is kerput you should ride my bike and see what happens. I have a Fit stick so we can keep measures after all is said and done. A handful of stems, a few hills and a few espressos later.... If you decide to go for it I'll hook you up with Smiley, who lives about 1 mile from me and can work the frame details and shop sale. I'll build it if you want...lot's of loctite and (yes yes B.M.) Linseed oil too

It’s a date! What should I wear? ;)

Very much appreciated TT. I’ll be dropping a PM your way. AR my friend, I haven’t forgotten about you. Maybe we could have a gathering of the Titans. :beer: :D

William

[flydhest]

Gimme, gimme, gimme!!! :D :D :D

William

William, you might want to check out Alpha Q. If you're hanging with TooTall, his is sweet. I'm the next step down in size from you, Ahneida, and TT, so take it for what it's worth, but I think the Alpha is great. Feels very close to my old F1.

[bostondrunk]

William, what races have you done? Want to check out next years competition!!

[Too Tall]

Pro Peloton seems to be getting good reviews too. If you are looking for an AlphaQ with a long steerer call L.Zinn. He has a drawer full.

Wear? Ha, I'll slap a team jersey on you.

[Ahneida Ride]

Uncle Zeus,

Meeting ? Yea I would enjoy that and meeting T**2. (Thor**2)
Hey, I'll make a few inquires and see what Dr.X has in his basement.

Perhaps Dr. X could build Fork Frankenstein ?

Best Regards,

Atlas

[William]

You scoping me BD?
Trying to figure me out?
Harshin my gig?
Wheezing my melon?

:D :D :D

Like I said in the " man it's tough being a dad" thread. I stopped racing around 98 (actually late 97) due to work related moves and the birth of our 1st child. Two children and a couple of moves later things are settling down and I'm getting enough training time on the bike to consider getting back in. I'm an All-or-nothing type of person. 110%, if not, find something else I can do 110%. but I'm rambling.

Off the top of my head:
Banana Belt
P.I.R. Race series,
Mt. Tabor Race Series
Pole-Peddal-paddle (cycling leg)
The Piece of cake
Pear Blossom
Wood Rat
OSU Jam
Silverton Crit/RR (happening this weekend BTW)
Mayors Cup Crit
Goveners Cup Crit
Crawfish Crit
Oregon road, Crit, and TT Championships
Old Mill TT
I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.

I'm itching to rub elbows again.:cool:

William

[William]

Uncle Zeus,

Meeting ? Yea I would enjoy that and meeting T**2. (Thor**2)
Hey, I'll make a few inquires and see what Dr.X has in his basement.

Perhaps Dr. X could build Fork Frankenstein ?



Brother Atlas, thanks!
That also gives me a few ideas for naming a new rig.

Across the TT...
How about: Frankenbike.

Or, For you Led Zep fans out there:
Hammer Of The Godz

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

William, you might want to check out Alpha Q.

I'll wait to test ride TT (aka Thor**2), and AR's (aka Atlas) rides before making a fork choice, but thanks for the advice.

Zeus William
Official Bolt hurler and ticket puncher of TEAM TITAN :cool:

[William]

Wear? Ha, I'll slap a team jersey on you.

You can dress me up.....but you sure as heck don't want to try feeding me. :no: :no: :no:
:D :D :D


William
:beer:

[Roy E. Munson]

William,

You raced as a Cat 2 at over 250 pounds? I've seen some big Cat 4 & 5's before, but nothing near that size higher up in the food chain.

Have you considered the training crit in Lincoln, RI as a re-entry back into the race scene? Supposed to be a good race

[William]

I found out about the Lincoln crits a couple of weeks ago. I've been wanting to get up there and check them out with my son. Scope out the course and the comp.


William

[Smiley]

I just delivered a CSI for a kid that just graduated from an Ivy League school and was a rower on their varsity team. 6' 4 1/2" and 245 lbs and yearns to get back down to 225 lbs. This kid is all muscels and looks like he could be a tight end in the NFL. Anyway he purchased a 63 ST by 60 TT using a 13 cm stem BUT check this out his STA was 71.5 degree's using an off-set seat post. I set him up with a longer stem cause his current KOP is neutral but my guess is as he gets stronger he'll move back on the saddle rails and then he can shorten his stem so as not to lock out his elbows. I think his bar drop was 7-8 cm . His CSI was built with OS tubing and no complaints from him so far. Serotta has what it takes to build a BIG bike for guys that need it. I am sure if you get a chance to see TT bike you'll be sold on the whole deal. Best of luck big guy .

[bostondrunk]

McCormack does the lincoln race quite a bit, so the comp. should be pretty good!

[BigMac]

Smiley:

You bring up an interesting point regarding sizing issues for us folks at the sizing extremes. Body proportions often have larger variations than those of more diminutive size. The young lad you mention is 2 1/2" taller than I, that's over 6cm for the metrically challenged. Despite his larger size, he has been professionally fitted to a frame size that is 1cm smaller in TT and ST. We use identical ST angle for nearly identical KOPS position (I'm 1.2cm behind spindle center), I too use a setback seatpin (Ritchey Pro Road w/ 19mm setback) and relatively long 177.5 cranks. FWIW:Merckx (geos largely influenced by F. Masi and U. DeRosa) has long spec'd larger frames w/sub 72* STA. Why would I, over 6cm shorter, ride a larger frame if both are properly fitted? I would assume Smiley's client is far shorter limbed, relative to his size. I have rather long limbs, for example my pbh is just under 93cm and my wingspan (middle fingertip to middle fingertip measured with arms extended outward from sides, level w/shoulders) is 6'9" -- yah, wide shoulders and long arms in rather ape-like fashion, love them bananas don'tcha know :) .

TT:
You have an SLX frame with 30k that has never failed? whoa, you must be silky smooth and efficient on frames or very lightweight. I've had a couple SL/SLX frames over the years and they were toast within a year. Are you sure its not SP/SPX (same tubes, just thicker wall thickness/butting)?

BW:
When a chainstay fails, it sounds a bit like a spoke failing, of course if its steel that is. CF and aluminum would have a greater tendency to catastrophically fail w/o warning. This winter I did have a steel cs fail w/o apparent advance warning, it caused a wheel lockup and minor crash. Usually the audible warning noises cause one to stop and dismount before any such drama. In truth, it may have indeed offered an audible warning however it was a very cold morning in Tahoe causing me to wear a wool cap and Gore-tex/fleece hat that may have abated my hearing a bit.

Ride on! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Andreu]

Check this out:
http://www.llewellynbikes.com/thegallery/album21

A :beer:

[Too Tall]

How about the second weekend in October? That spans a Fed holiday.

Casa TT has lots of space.

[Smiley]

Mr Mac ,
Interesting doing BIG guy fits , the client has BIG feet yet short toes and he has a nice pedalling stroke , why do I say this cause he gets lenght in his saddle to pedal axel distance but he had NOT toe over lap or even came close . We measure cleat center to tip of shoe for a toe overlap confirmation. Also he has a long neck and maybe a tall profile head. Yes things do get really funky when your dealing with everything BIG. I always am amazed when I need to realx the Seat tube angle beyond 72 degree's and trust me we double and triple check this with a digital angle finder on 2 fits , the initial and final check out fit to make sure all is OK. Since the client was getting back into cycling I did not want to push 180 mm cranks on him so we stuck to 175's ( Shimano 9 speed guy , if he picked 10 speed it would have been 117.5's ).
On a separate note if you were an NFL scout you would think Tight End for this kid. Nice guy and I would be scared to call him to ask him to ride with us today cause he's probably very good by now.