spring in a frame

[Fixed]

bro all this talk about your stiffness made me think of spring in my steel bikes that is something hip..... i'm probably the only cat that digs that
cheers imho

[don'TreadOnMe]

Add me to your list por favor.
I dig it too.

[samtaylor1]

Fixed,

I love the feeling of steel. In fact, whenever I am talking to someone who wants to get into road riding, I always say they should get a steel bike. It abosrbs the road so well, so smooth, just the right amount of flex. The stiffness and speed that comes with other materials, a newbie often does not appreciate till they are a better rider.

[RPS]

Fixed,
Order one of these but make sure it's all steel.
Makes all the difference.
Trust me. :rolleyes:

[old_school]

i'm probably the only cat that digs that cheers

Add me to the list

Last season I had two road bikes: one full carbon (from a well respected small carbon builder), the other niobium steel - same geometry/same wheels & tires. While the carbon did dampen road vibrations a bit better, hitting New England pot holes on carbon was not complementary to my old spine (even with slightly longer 41.5 chain stays). Give me some metal, 32 spoke wheels, and 25c tires, and I am content. Young guns can have their ultra light weight and rigidity.

[saab2000]

bro all this talk about your stiffness made me think of spring in my steel bikes that is something hip..... i'm probably the only cat that digs that
cheers imho

You're not the only one.

My Merckx Majestic Ti is completely lacking in any spring and feels lifeless in comparison. Not a bad bike, but nothing like the steel feel I like.

I know exactly what you're talking about. My CSI has some spring to it too. As do all my steel bikes.

[fstrthnu]

My Sachs CX bikes have the sweet steel springy feeling too. Love it.


bro all this talk about your stiffness made me think of spring in my steel bikes that is something hip..... i'm probably the only cat that digs that
cheers imho

[swoop]

this is what drives my love of carbon/ti bikes. you get the lightness and stiffness of the carbon and the return of energy that is ti. i think its the best way to exploit the natural characteristics of both materials.

[Tobias]

My Merckx Majestic Ti is completely lacking in any spring and feels lifeless in comparison.
And when I thought I was starting to get it. :crap:
You'll have to enlighten me with the difference between a titanium spring and a steel spring. :confused:
Actually, now I don't even know what a spring is. :rolleyes:
Forget it, I'll argue this with myself. Will make more sense that way. :argue:

[saab2000]

And when I thought I was starting to get it. :crap:
You'll have to enlighten me with the difference between a titanium spring and a steel spring. :confused:
Actually, now I don't even know what a spring is. :rolleyes:
Forget it, I'll argue this with myself. Will make more sense that way. :argue:

Don't get me wrong. The Merckx is not a bad bike. But when I first got it I seriously thought something was wrong with it. It was my first non-steel bike and really shocked me. Over time I have gotten used to it. And there may well be really nice, springy, lively Ti frames, but in my eyes the Merckx Majestic isn't one of them.

But my Look carbon is. Don't ask me why, but I have always loved the way the Look frames feel.

Don't ask me, I haven't any reason why I like or dislike my bikes. I just do.

[jbl]

this is what drives my love of carbon/ti bikes. you get the lightness and stiffness of the carbon and the return of energy that is ti. i think its the best way to exploit the natural characteristics of both materials.

Out of curiosity, do you have preferences as to where the carbon and Ti are used?

[swoop]

Out of curiosity, do you have preferences as to where the carbon and Ti are used?

i like the way my elium works.... but its sort of pure whimsy. if it were an ottrrott or a titus or a holland i'm sure it would be that similar sensation of muting the ti and livening the carbon.. for lack of a better way to put it. i am aware that i have very specific and peculiar tastes....

i also like girls with big noses. so its like that.
i like frames that tend toward too stiff but with a little snap. i dont worry much about weight.. i'm small and everything ends up at 15-16lbs. i ride cranks that are too long too...
so don't go by me....but for sure try a multi material frame and see what you come out of it with....

[Tobias]

Don't ask me, I haven't any reason why I like or dislike my bikes. I just do.
I no longer have a clue as to what anyone means by spring, springy, damp, damping, etc….
It seems these terms are being used inconsistently -- somewhat arbitrarily or out of context.
I doubt I’m going to “get it” no matter how many times I read the same posts or opinions.
Describing subjective feedback in objective terms that are not even measured seems futile.
I'm a little frustrated that I can’t get on the same page with the rest of you who know the difference.

[Tobias]

i also like girls with big noses. so its like that.
That I can relate to.
I liked Streisand until she got wacky.

[t. swartz]

bro all this talk about your stiffness made me think of spring in my steel bikes that is something hip..... i'm probably the only cat that digs that
cheers imho
+1 :beer:

[swoop]

for the confused.. the simple answer is ride as many bikes as you can (in as many materials). ride as many custom bikes as you can and change aspects of them. play around with stuff and then decide what you like and then make up words for it. that's what i do.

[Fixed]

bro if you have to ask you'll never know
cheers imho

[fstrthnu]

"gets it"?
No such thing in my opinion. Who defines "it"? What is "it"?
Says who?
Says what?




I no longer have a clue as to what anyone means by spring, springy, damp, damping, etc….
It seems these terms are being used inconsistently -- somewhat arbitrarily or out of context.
I doubt I’m going to “get it” no matter how many times I read the same posts or opinions.
Describing subjective feedback in objective terms that are not even measured seems futile.
I'm a little frustrated that I can’t get on the same page with the rest of you who know the difference.

[vaxn8r]

Don't get me wrong. The Merckx is not a bad bike. But when I first got it I seriously thought something was wrong with it. It was my first non-steel bike and really shocked me. Over time I have gotten used to it. And there may well be really nice, springy, lively Ti frames, but in my eyes the Merckx Majestic isn't one of them.

But my Look carbon is. Don't ask me why, but I have always loved the way the Look frames feel.

Don't ask me, I haven't any reason why I like or dislike my bikes. I just do.
I had an early 90's Litespeed which I also found uninspiring. Trust me on this, their are far better ti bikes out there. I own one.

[Fixed]

I had an early 90's Litespeed which I also found uninspiring. Trust me on this, their are far better ti bikes out there. I own one.
bro the best riding bike i ever rode ti clark kent ...we just hit it off
cheers imho springy and lively
cheers

[davids]

All these material threads drive me a bit crazy. These generalizations about the characteristics of materials are more misleading than helpful.

We can't have it both ways, folks - Frame design is a gestalt, and material is just one piece of the equation. No big surprise to me that some of us like our steel/ti/carbon/multi-material bikes, and some of disagree with the first group... There are great bikes made of every material, atmo. And what makes them great isn't merely the metal.

So, yeah, steel is real. Steel is springy. Except when it isn't.

[bigtime]

spring = speedvagen (from a builder/fabricator who knows his sh|t)

i have a barely used ridley supercross 56 frameset that is getting shown the door shortly.

[Tobias]

Part of the problem in describing vibration, spring stiffness, etc…. is that engineers and non-engineers here talk in a different language. No surprise there. :rolleyes:

Engineers like graphs and numbers as the one below describing simple harmonic motion. All other guys (ladies should skip this lesson) relate better in other terms.

For non-engineers: http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/simple-harmonic-movement/

I guess we should avoid natural frequencies after all.

[saab2000]

Part of the problem in describing vibration, spring stiffness, etc…. is that engineers and non-engineers here talk in a different language. No surprise there. :rolleyes:

Engineers like graphs and numbers as the one below describing simple harmonic motion. All other guys (ladies should skip this lesson) relate better in other terms.

For non-engineers: http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/simple-harmonic-movement/

I guess we should avoid natural frequencies after all.


Apparently gets it. :D

[rob137]

bro all this talk about your stiffness made me think of spring in my steel bikes that is something hip..... i'm probably the only cat that digs that
cheers imho

You knew, on this board of all boards, that you were not the only cat that digs that before you wrote the above. You are a relentless poster.

cheers imho

[barry1021]

spring = speedvagen (from a builder/fabricator who knows his sh|t)

i have a barely used ridley supercross 56 frameset that is getting shown the door shortly.

Were they sold out on the first day?? i did not follow up on that or see testimonials....

b21

[Fixed]

You knew, on this board of all boards, that you were not the only cat that digs that before you wrote the above. You are a relentless poster.

cheers imho
I had a feelin there might be one or two
cheers

[J.Greene]

I had a feelin there might be one or two
cheers

count me in

did you go to the races this weekend?

JG

[Fixed]

count me in

did you go to the races this weekend?

JG
no rain sat .
how did you do ?
I 'm goin to see how gonzo's kid did .
cheers

[J.Greene]

no rain sat .
how did you do ?
I 'm goin to see how gonzo's kid did .
cheers

My cat was combined into another at the last minute. I only got about a 10 min warmup. It hurt real bad. But i'm happy. The whole family was there cheering. I had the biggest cheering section.

Cappy's was good.

JG

[rpm]

Spring = planing, ATMO. My ti bike loves a high cadence and goes fast when I go fast. My steel bike with a similar geometry likes loping along in a bigger gear and a lower cadence. The steel bike takes longer to accelerate, but once it gets going, it's easier to "stay on top of the gear". Both are springy and fun, but in different ways.

[RPS]

guys (ladies should skip this lesson) relate better in other terms.

For non-engineers: http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/simple-harmonic-movement/
When the excitation frequency matches the natural frequency, suspended mass oscillates excessively. Bikes, breasts -- what’s the difference? :rolleyes:

Same principle as excessive road buzz but with much greater amplitude.

In this lady’s case there seems to be very little damping to control motion, putting into question how much damping the human body provides.

[Sir Maldoror]

Spring in a frame is why 531 was the high watermark for frame material.

Sir Maldoror

[e-RICHIE]

Spring in a frame is why 531 was the high watermark for frame material.

Sir Maldoror
01110100011011110110111100100000011001100111010101 10001101101011011010010110111001100111001000000110 01100111010101101110011011100111100100100000011000 0101110100011011010110111100101110

[Sir Maldoror]

01110100011011110110111100100000011001100111010101 10001101101011011010010110111001100111001000000110 01100111010101101110011011100111100100100000011000 0101110100011011010110111100101110

Sir Richard ¿qué todos esos números significan?

Sir Maldoror

[sg8357]

01110100011011110110111100100000011001100111010101 10001101101011011010010110111001100111001000000110 01100111010101101110011011100111100100100000011000 0101110100011011010110111100101110

The would be a collective ARRGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!! from Dazza & E-Richie.
That Reynolds comment is the sort mechano-nostalgia that makes
framebuilders go crazy and write frustrated post to forums. ;-)

Scott G.

[e-RICHIE]

The would be a collective ARRGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!! from Dazza & E-Richie.
That Reynolds comment is the sort mechano-nostalgia that makes
framebuilders go crazy and write frustrated post to forums. ;-)

Scott G.
ooo and i miss annette and frankie too atmo.

[Your_Friend!]

01100101001011010101001001101001011000110110100001 10100101100101001011010111001101100001011011100010 00010000110100001010000011010000101001000011011000 01011011100010000001001111011011100110010100100000 01010000011011000110000101101110011001010000110100 00101000001101000010100100111101101110001000000100 00010010000001000011011110010110001101101100011011 11011000110111001001101111011100110111001100100000 01000010011010010110001101111001011000110110110001 10010100111111000011010000101000001101000010100100 11110111001000100000010000010010000001000011011000 01011100100110001001101111011011100010000001000110 01101001011000100110010101110010001000000100001001 10100101100011011110010110001101101100011001010011 11110000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010 10010011000110111101110110011001010010110000001101 00001010010110010110111101110101011100100101111101 00011001110010011010010110010101101110011001000010 0001

[e-RICHIE]

01111001011011110111010100100000011000110110000101 10111000100000011100110110100101110100001000000110 00010111010000100000011011010111100100100000011011 00011101010110111001100011011010000111010001100001 01100010011011000110010100100000011000010111010001 1011010110111100101110

[Len J]

bro all this talk about your stiffness made me think of spring in my steel bikes that is something hip..... i'm probably the only cat that digs that
cheers imho

if it also planes!

len

[Tobias]

Sir Richard ¿qué todos esos números significan?

Sir Maldoror
Hocus Pocus?

For all practical purposes all steel has the same springiness. Steel tube dimensions vary spring rate, not the material itself.

[Sir Maldoror]

Hocus Pocus?

For all practical purposes all steel has the same springiness. Steel tube dimensions vary spring rate, not the material itself.

Tobias,

Thanks for the reply and expanding on my point. 531 tubes in all sizes (non OS) atsmo was the high watermark for frame material. In the old days....531 was available in many different specs. It gave the frame builder many options. From 16lb brevet bikes to truck like track bikes, the full catalog of the material was the gem.

Thanks in helping to educate the unwashed.

and to my pal....
01111001011011110111010100100000011000110110000101 10111000100000011100110110100101110100001000000110

Sir Maldoror

[Tobias]

Yeah, for me it’s like some guy saying that his hammock swings smoother when hung with a nylon rope from a pine tree at the head end and a polyester rope from a maple at the other end. He’s adamant about it so it must be true.

I honestly don’t relate well to the fascination with tiny incremental changes that must be – or should be -- irrelevant. Not that there is anything wrong with that if that’s what you like; I’m just more interested in big-picture stuff – things that make real change.

[e-RICHIE]

I’m just more interested in big-picture stuff – things that make real change.
atmo that'd be fitness.

[Fixed]

bro after winter comes spring ....time to ride that's a nice feeling
cheers

[J.Greene]

atmo that'd be fitness.

Roger that. When all is clicking and it's time to throw down I don't even feel the bike. But then again I ride a Sachs.

JG

[Sir Maldoror]

01111001011011110111010100100000011000110110000101 10111000100000011100110110100101110100001000000110 00010111010000100000011011010111100100100000011011 00011101010110111001100011011010000111010001100001 01100010011011000110010100100000011000010111010001 1011010110111100101110


01001001001000000111001101100101011001010010000001 10100001101111011101110010000001110100011010000110 10010111001100100000011101110110111101110010011010 11011100110010000001101110011011110111011100101110 00100000010010010111010000100111011100110010000001 10100101110011001000000110110101100101001000000111 01110110100001101111001000000110100101110011001000 00011011110110111001100101001000000110111101100110 00100000011101000110100001100101001000000111010101 10111001110111011000010111001101101000011001010110 01000010111000001101000010100000110100001010010100 11011010010111001000100000011011010110000101101100 0110010001101111011100100110111101110010

[Darrell]

Tobias,

Thanks for the reply and expanding on my point. 531 tubes in all sizes (non OS) atsmo was the high watermark for frame material. In the old days....531 was available in many different specs. It gave the frame builder many options. From 16lb brevet bikes to truck like track bikes, the full catalog of the material was the gem.

Thanks in helping to educate the unwashed.

and to my pal....
01111001011011110111010100100000011000110110000101 10111000100000011100110110100101110100001000000110

Sir Maldoror

who make a full time living from our metal work.
One can source a full range of tubing, in all sizes, all walls thickness, but most importantly with much better metalurgy than 531.
Hey, 531, yeah, it was good stuff in its era.
Just like Simplex friction gear levers were when hooked up to a Campy Record derailleur running a Sidis chain over a Suntour New Winner ultra 7 free wheel block 25 years ago.
The only advantage I can ever see in the old stuff like 531 was it was so so easy to cold set when unskilled brazing distortions take place. Cold setting some of the better high tensile tubes {with much better fatigue life!} is sometimes impossible to do. So good building is required. Not a heave hoed frame on the plate with some fancy filing and painting to make look sweet.
Also 531 was easy on the tooling.
Ask any tube manufacteur if they they would want to make 531 tubes.
They say "Ugh, why?"
If it is the tube decal that brings back many sweet nostalgic memories, then OK, enjoy.

[Tobias]

Cold setting some of the better high tensile tubes {with much better fatigue life!} is sometimes impossible to do.
Please define "better". Better as in it allows you to build a lighter bike, or better as in it rides nicer? Both?

I understand the part about the new high-strength steels being stronger, but other than weight savings how is that better?

[I Want Sachs?]

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1991/pages/bridgestone-1991-14.htm

Bridgestone is the real deal.

[Fixed]

bro nice read thanks it's the ghost in the metal thing
cheers imho

[DarrenCT]

bro all this talk about your stiffness made me think of spring in my steel bikes that is something hip..... i'm probably the only cat that digs that
cheers imho

+1

i'll take comfort, over stiffness any day. maybe thats why i dont race?

:beer:

[Darrell]

Please define "better". Better as in it allows you to build a lighter bike, or better as in it rides nicer? Both?

I understand the part about the new high-strength steels being stronger, but other than weight savings how is that better?

a builder can use today's steel tubes with the same wall thickness, diameter and butt dimensions which will give the same ride feel as a 531 tube
but with
Greater fatigue life
Higher dent resistance
Greater yield strength which means it takes more force in a prang to bend/damage a tube or the frame's alignment
Wall thickness of the tube can go down and diameter up to give a tube that is lighter, or stiffer. Which the builder can select to use in the correct situation required. Not all riders, and bikes are Sunday putters.
And you can use a thinner tube to get more flexibility where needed but retain strength and durablity.
Example. Fork blades and seat stays.
Please note, that I am not saying "stiffer" is always better.
Tensile is not stiffness.
Strength is not durablity.
Summery.
The modern steels have better fatigue life.

[e-RICHIE]

The modern steels have better fatigue life.
it must be the era; i have more fatigue lately too atmo.

[Fixed]

it must be the era; i have more fatigue lately too atmo.
http://music.yahoo.com/track/372966
cheers

[Tobias]

The modern steels have better fatigue life.Thanks Darrell, I think I understand your point better.

I've only damaged one steel frame in a crash, so strength isn't that important to me. I'm not sure higher-strength steel would have survived anyway. Fatigue is even less of an issue for me. Maybe if I rode a lot more.

The main difference I've noticed over the years is that my steel frames have gone from 1-1/8 inch down tubes and 1" top tubes to 1-1/4 and 1-1/8, making the frames a little stiffer and lighter at the same time.

The newer frames don't ride any better or much different (i.e. -- smoother) but feel more secure at high speed -- say anything above 35 MPH.