'Serotta's are heavy'. Fact or fiction?

[bnewt07]

I read this on a website recently.

'Serotta are beauiful bikes but the high end frames have slipped behind on weight, smooth and lovely to ride though they may be.'

I seem to have seen the phrase 'Serottas are heavy' several times elsewhere too.

Is this fair? is it historical? Is is just that a company philosophy to pursue other characteristsics rather than skimming weight?

I'm well aware that weight isn't everything but the frame weights quoted for the two other brands I'm considering (Seven/Lynskey) are impressive if accurate (for all Ti or Ti-carbon mix).

serotta does not qoute typical frame eights. Should I be suspicious as to why

[Steve Hampsten]

ask yourself this, pilgrim:

do i want a light bike or do i want one that rides great?

it's possible you may not get both

it's kinda like buying the car for the horsepower - it tells you only part of the story

ymmv

[bnewt07]

I think some people would argue that it is possible to have both....

I know exactly what you are saying though; and the implication from your reply is that they are heavier than the competition, and that Serotta trade this against ride quality. Fine, if that is the case then this is what I want to know.

It would still be useful if they posted typical frame weights-accepting that a full custom build might vary.

Bruce

[Kirk Pacenti]

Compare frame weights from company X, Y & Z and calculate the difference in weight as a percentage.

Now add the 11-14lbs of components you would build the frame(s) up with and re-calculate the weight difference as a %.

Finally add your weight to that of each bike and again, calculate the difference as a %.

What you are likely to find is that the total bike and rider weight between the heaviest and lightest bike with you on it, (which imo is what really matters) is likely less than 1% .

I am not saying a lite bike isn't nice to ride or that Serotta's are heavy... I just think it's a useful way to think about bike weight. Ask yourself whether a 1% difference weight difference really matters to you. It sure doesn't matter to me. Then again, I don't know what any my bikes weigh, I have never even weighed them; it just doesn't matter to me.

I would much rather buy from a company I identified with in some way. Or better yet, buy from a shop that has the best service and will stand behind the products they sell. IMO, you are really "buying" the shop, not the bike.

[bnewt07]

Compare frame weights from company X, Y & Z and calculate the difference in weight as a percentage.

Now add the 11-14lbs of components you would build the frame(s) up with and re-calculate the weight difference as a %.

Finally add your weight to that of each bike and again, calculate the difference as a %.

What you are likely to find is that the total bike and rider weight between the heaviest and lightest bike with you on it, (which imo is what really matters) is likely less than 1% .

I am not saying a lite bike isn't nice to ride or that Serotta's are heavy... I just think it's a useful way to think about bike weight. Ask yourself whether a 1% difference weight difference really matters to you. It sure doesn't matter to me. Then again, I don't know what any my bikes weigh, I have never even weighed them; it just doesn't matter to me.

I would much rather buy from a company I identified with in some way. Or better yet, buy from a shop that has the best service and will stand behind the products they sell. IMO, you are really "buying" the shop, not the bike.

I could not agree more with the last sentence (and all the common sense before it). The problem I have is that the three brands i'm considering each have just a single dealer in the UK, all hundreds of miles away. I'm booked with the London Serotta dealer for a fitting session but will have little choice but to consider the other brands as 'remote' purchases, talking to bike shops on the phone and via email.

With regard to weight I think it a very light bike means a different character not just a power to weight ratio issue. Not sure i want a very light bike but I like information when choosing.

[1centaur]

What you are likely to find is that the total bike and rider weight between the heaviest and lightest bike with you on it, (which imo is what really matters) is likely less than 1% .

OP:
"With regard to weight I think it a very light bike means a different character not just a power to weight ratio issue."

And therein lies the twain that's often not met on discussions like this. People who ride or make heavy bikes love to talk about that 1% range while people who like light-end bikes seem to find value there. Is one or the other wrong? No. A strong rider or a rider on a good day gets far more out of a bike that fits great or transmits power effectively (like my Merckx AXM with Carbones that actually seems to climb pretty well because so little effort is lost) than from saving 1.5 pounds (though getting both can be very nice). However, a very light bike feels different to many people when ridden, not just when picked up, and there are moments of relative effortless that are very enjoyable on such bikes, regardless of the infamous 1%.

As to the original question: I don't own one but my impression from people who post weights is that yes, Serottas are on the heavy side of the normal range for bikes of their material, in general, and that this is a conscious decision to focus on ride and quality (they have not "slipped behind" per the original quote, since weight does not appear to be a feature they pursue above other qualities). Note well that the typical answer to the question on this forum will be that weight does not matter. I think you might be better asking your questions of Serotta directly.

[Fixed]

bro look around there are a lot of 70's-80's serotta's .. you want a great ride you have to trust your bike builder and serotta's last
cheers imho .
they are light enough

[Steelhead]

My custom CDA in about a 53 cm size with pedals and bottle cages wieghs 18.66 lbs. I'll take that anyday for a sweet steel bike.

[dauwhe]

My old brevet bike, complete with gear, weighed around 36 pounds. Don't know if the new one is much different.

When Chip Coldwell rode across the country, his bike (plus gear) weighed 107 pounds.

Y'all are counting angels on the head of a pin! ; )

Dave

[J.Greene]

Serotta builds a responsible product that lasts longer than the life span of a glossy magazine ad.

JG

[andy mac]

like some of the others above, not saying they are heavier than what you are considering but try:

1. only filling your water bottle 19/20ths of the way.

2. lose 1 pound

3. carry one less museli bar in your pocket


if you are worried about speed, and my guess is you are a desk jockey like most of us, there's lower hanging fruit than a 1 pound weight difference.

:beer:

[Bruce K]

My Meivici weighs 16.5# with pedals, bottle cages, HRM, and computer in place. Most advertised weights include none of these things which I am pretty sure add close to a pound.

And that bike was designed for my 215# weight (oversized tubing and F3-8.5 fork).

I don't know that I could get anything much lighter than that which would ride anywhere near as well.

BK

[Too Tall]

Just had this "talk" with a good friend who's urban fixed gear bike was ripped off he asked for a recommend to replace and I said Surly Steamroller. His response was "but that thing is a tank, it's heavy" :rolleyes: FAWK. Does not get it. He spent weeks looking and decided on an aluminum frame track bike...a real deal track bike with light components...and asked my opinion. "Dewd, that bike won't take fenders..can't fit tyres larger than 23 and will beat you to death AND you can't lock it up cause someone will steal it." He got the Steam Roller...which with the right components will build up to a reasonable 18 lbs. DUH.

It's about the bike not the grams.

[djg]

I think some people would argue that it is possible to have both....

I know exactly what you are saying though; and the implication from your reply is that they are heavier than the competition, and that Serotta trade this against ride quality. Fine, if that is the case then this is what I want to know.

It would still be useful if they posted typical frame weights-accepting that a full custom build might vary.

Bruce

Well, I understand the interest, but I would suggest that posting something might be more "of interest" to some folks than terribly useful. If you're counting grams, and weights vary by a few ounces -- within a given stock size -- by tube selection, paint, etc., and then some more according to the size frame you get, then both Serotta and a customer might feel that advertising a "typical" 55 cm frame weight of "x" is misleading, quite apart from the question of its relevance to performance.

People have also suggested that Colnago have been left somewhat behind on weight. I'd say that Colnago and Serotta build frames that are pretty light -- plenty light for racing at whatever level your legs can manage -- but that neither is interested in shaving the last possible gram at the expense of reliability or the ride characteristics that they are seeking. A bike plus water plus rider weight of, say, 175 pounds, versus one of 174 lbs 12 ounces, where the first bike fits, climbs, and descends the way you want ...

I do think that folks sometimes post their individual frame weights, fwiw. I'll try to weigh mine before I build it up next week if I can find the right scale.

[davids]

The focus on weight strikes me as a noobie marketing tool more than anything else. It's easy to measure and "understand" (I use quotes because it's a false understanding - the assumption being that lighter equals better.)

My Serotta and my Pegoretti seem pretty close in weight, and they're both relatively light (I couldn't tell you what they weigh.) But they ride very differently, which should be no surprise to anyone paying attention.

A bike should be as light as it needs to be. It's one parameter in the design.

[Fixed]

bro the weight of your bike is not the same as being light on the bike
cheers imho
the feeling of lightness comes on a bike that is well made and fits

[rwsaunders]

Fwiw bnew, two (now three) of the posters are well respected builders and several of the other chaps know their dung too. Follow their lead, Grasshopper.

[zank]

I said it before in the power thread. Last Sunday, when Lyne Bessette and my buddies were ripping my legs off at the Amesbury Cross, the only thing keeping me in contact was my fitness. We're jabbering about 1-1.5 pound differences between the worlds lightest frames and what people now call heavy frames. The funny part is that even "heavy" frames and steel forks build up to 18# with a pretty conservative parts pick these days. If you can't race, hang onto your local club ride or mix it in with your buddies for town lines on an 18# bike, you have to evaluabe your riding and your goals. This sport is about 99% fitness and 1% equipment. Okay, maybe 95/5.

[sspielman]

I said it before in the power thread. Last Sunday, when Lyne Bessette and my buddies were ripping my legs off at the Amesbury Cross, the only thing keeping me in contact was my fitness. We're jabbering about 1-1.5 pound differences between the worlds lightest frames and what people now call heavy frames. The funny part is that even "heavy" frames and steel forks build up to 18# with a pretty conservative parts pick these days. If you can't race, hang onto your local club ride or mix it in with your buddies for town lines on an 18# bike, you have to evaluabe your riding and your goals. This sport is about 99% fitness and 1% equipment. Okay, maybe 95/5.

...dude, you are in the bidness...at least go for the Yogi Berra split..we could say that "Bike racing is 99% fitness...and the other half is equipment"....

[nm87710]

Heavy? Light? Terms that mean different things to different people.

It all depends on what it means to YOU.

In my case(your results will vary) I did 3 road sraces last year all finishing wiht 10+% climbs for 2-3 miles. Carrying an extra 2lbs costs me ~8seconds per mile at that grade. :)

[victoryfactory]

My Legend Ti is 17.6 lbs with DA and Open pro wheels
Thats light enough for me, But with High-zoot wheels and tires,
It would probably take 1 lb off.
VF

[Too Tall]

How to save $4,000 before your next race:

1. Clip finger nails.
2. Hit the head.
3. Wash behind both ears.

[barry1021]

weighed my bikes. I don't see the point.

b21

[SPOKE]

which model Serotta and Lynskey are you considering??

[Geoff]

My 58cm '01 Legend Ti with OS stays is 3.3 lbs, frame only. Not sure what the total build wieght is but it is the best riding bike I have been on. Performance is more important than wieght. I often get my butt handed to me by guys I would have put money down that I could beat by just looking at there wieght.

G

[Ti Designs]

Come on, answer the original question! Yes, Serotta's are heavy. My Serotta weighs 170 pounds, the bikes I raced on were a number of pounds lighter. For what it's worth, I try to look at the whole picture, so the bike weight includes the rider. I don't know that I could blame Serotta for the extra weight...


Just had this "talk" with a good friend who's urban fixed gear bike was ripped off he asked for a recommend to replace and I said Surly Steamroller. His response was "but that thing is a tank, it's heavy" :rolleyes:

Yeh, and heavy bikes make faster riders. i too own a Steamroller which tips the scales - really, I put it on the shop scale and it tipped over. I ride the thing all winter on rides where everybody else has gears. At some point I forget that I'm at a disadvantage and just ride. There's no way I should be winning town line sprints turning a 42x18 on tractor tires, but nobody is going to tell me that. When I switch over to a bike that's 6 pounds lighter, has light, fast rolling tires and derailleurs, what happens to all those guys on the 16 pound bikes?

[EDS]

My Serotta HSG Ti is surprisingly heavy. I do wish it were lighter and I have considered getting a lighter bike to serve as my race bike and reserve the Serotta to training ride status. I still like it though.

[J.Greene]

The leader in the Florida Points Series in the Masters 45+ rides an older lugged Torelli. It's the motor. It's the motor. It's the motor.

JG

[davids]

Heavy? Light? Terms that mean different things to different people.

It all depends on what it means to YOU.

In my case(your results will vary) I did 3 road sraces last year all finishing wiht 10+% climbs for 2-3 miles. Carrying an extra 2lbs costs me ~8seconds per mile at that grade. :)
I think your argument is slightly off. Yeah, weight matters if everything else is equal. But imagine that some other parameters for that heavier bike make you faster - better position, comfort, power transmission, etc... You may be getting more than that 8 secs/mile back as you climb.

That's really my point - weight is just one factor. Because it's so easy to quantify, it's easy to package and sell. Don't believe the hype, atmo.

[Ti Designs]

In my case(your results will vary) I did 3 road races last year all finishing wiht 10+% climbs for 2-3 miles. Carrying an extra 2lbs costs me ~8seconds per mile at that grade. :)

Yeh, I hate it when the guys with the light bikes drop me on a hill...

[fierte58]

Was'nt it Andy Hampsten who once said that the only thing worse than climbing on a too "heavy" bike was going down the other side on a too "light" bike?- or something like that.. you get the idea...

[andy mac]

a pro on a mtn bike would blow 99.78% of us riding a 15 pound bike away.

:beer: :beer:

[samtaylor1]

Weight measurements given by a company can't be trusted. Each company uses different standards: frame (no fork), frame fork, frame with seat, smallest frame vs. largest frame, medium vs. 56, 56 sloping (to which your extra weight will come in the seat post) vs. standard. In fact if a company puts a number like 16.7 down, in my opinion i is it is disingenuous. Materials change in weight throughout the year, different amounts of glue (if we are talking carbon bikes) are used. It is a spectrum of weight that must be looked at, if it is an important buying determinant (which is no better or worse then my need to have a nice paint job on my bike)

[zap]

Was'nt it Andy Hampsten who once said that the only thing worse than climbing on a too "heavy" bike was going down the other side on a too "light" bike?- or something like that.. you get the idea...

According to articles back in the day, that was when he rode those first Look carbon frames on mtn stages. They were noodles and didn't handle higher cornering loads well.

It's not a factor today.

[RPS]

....snipped.....However, a very light bike feels different to many people when ridden, not just when picked up, and there are moments of relative effortless that are very enjoyable on such bikes, regardless of the infamous 1%......snipped......Does a bike that is 10% lighter (say about 2 pounds lighter) that represents a total difference of only 1 percent of the total bike/rider weight “feel” 10% lighter under the rider or does it “feel” 1% lighter? I think there is a component of the lightness feel that is no different than picking up the bike – and that does not (and can not) transfer to actual performance gains.

It’s the same argument made for light wheels and tires. IMO they actually feel faster than it is physically possible. A rider’s perception of a light weight bike is not accurate.

[Larry]

I read this on a website recently.

'Serotta are beauiful bikes but the high end frames have slipped behind on weight, smooth and lovely to ride though they may be.'

I seem to have seen the phrase 'Serottas are heavy' several times elsewhere too.

Is this fair? is it historical? Is is just that a company philosophy to pursue other characteristsics rather than skimming weight?

I'm well aware that weight isn't everything but the frame weights quoted for the two other brands I'm considering (Seven/Lynskey) are impressive if accurate (for all Ti or Ti-carbon mix).

serotta does not qoute typical frame eights. Should I be suspicious as to why

The Serotta ride speaks for itself. Stability and control and comfort.
If weight is a big issue, get a generic carbon or whatever. Each to his own.
Unless you are a big-time mountain climber, it just does not mean alot .
Plus, the lightness of high-end components tends to push the overall weight even lower. 18 pounds, 6 ounces with older model Campy components
is plenty light for me. Coeur de Acier......right on!!
The bike is the tool. You are the engine. Ride on.

[swoop]

if the bike youre comparing it to is lighter.. the answer is simply yes.

i have a 15 lbs rig and a 16 lb rig. i race on the 16 lb rig... its the 'faster' of the two.. hills or not.

[CarlosContreros]

I'm a nationwide trucking contractor and haven't ridden my bike in
about 2 months...and during this time my weight dropped from
203 to 190.

Well...I rode my bike the other day and
I can't beleive the improvement in bike handling...just really balanced...and
my bike now feels sooooo light...I'm much faster too!!

And I ride what many would consider an....."anchor"!!


a 21-22lb. 63 cm merckx mx leader!!!

I think the rider weight is much more of a factor!

[mso]

Ottrott 52CM - 3.0 frame. Built - 16.5
Calfee Luna - 2.6 Frame. Built - 17.00 (old 9 sp components)

Geometry almost identical

Calfee "feels" lighter and seems to require less effort on climbs. Go figure.
Difference Material and builder. Ti Carbon vs. Carbon

On the Calfee I feel more road vibration.
Ottrott desends great and offers an overall smooth ride.

I'm a superlight climber and can't lose weight, so for me a light bike is important, however, as Fierte noted light bikes ascend great but sometimes you pay for it on the descent.
Need to buy what feels the best for YOU!!

[Larry]

I'm a nationwide trucking contractor and haven't ridden my bike in
about 2 months...and during this time my weight dropped from
203 to 190.

Well...I rode my bike the other day and
I can't beleive the improvement in bike handling...just really balanced...and
my bike now feels sooooo light...I'm much faster too!!

And I ride what many would consider an....."anchor"!!


a 21-22lb. 63 cm merckx mx leader!!!

I think the rider weight is much more of a factor!

Carlos,

Right on Bro' that is exactly what this post is all about. The bottom line..... Rider weight is more important than bike weight. Simple.

[sg8357]

If you want to really save weight, get rid of those derailers and brifters.
I can never understand people whinning about weight when they have
so much extra stuff hanging on their bike. I mean you can only ride
1 gear at time anyway. People who want to be weight weenies need to
be certified to have 5% or less body fat. [cranky mode off]

Scott G.

[bnewt07]

I don't think it is unreasonable for Serotta to post a typical frame weight of the non-custom frames. In theory all GS level bike frames of a given size will way the same. the same would be true of the HSG bikes etc. A potential purchaser can then decide for themselves how important any weight difference is between the brands and models they are considering. Not publishing a frame weight seems to perpetuate the myth that they are heavy to my mind, indeed almost makes it look like they are hiding it.

I know weight isn't EVERYTHING; but I also know that it is SOMETHING to consider, especially if you live in a very hilly area as I do. I want to consider factors such as weight vs stiffness vs compliance etc in selecting my custom build, with Serotta or whoever.

Seven quote variations in typical frame weight between 2.5 and 3.6lbs for their various titanium framed models, so it is possible to have pretty big differences within one material type. I think most riders would feel that degree of difference.

Spoke asked : what models am I looking at? Answer: Legend Ti/Lynksey level 3 probably.

[ergott]

I'm a weight of bike isn't an issue guy, but still look anyway (I'm also a numbers guy). My Ottrott is a 53cm (or so) and weighed 1365g. I think that it's competitive in the weight cat to what other frames are ti/carbon. If that isn't, then I guess ignorance is bliss/I wouldn't care anyway. It's also an amazing bike to boot!

If someone had a bike that weighed 25 pounds that did what it should for me I wouldn't take it off my list of bikes to consider because of it.

[benb]

I don't weigh stuff too often... (I use tape measures & levels on my bike WAY too much though!)

The road bikes I've had...

Trek 2200 w/105 + Rolf Vectors - 58cm Alu frame + CF fork w/steel steerer - circa 2000 - this was around 20lbs..

Giant TCR Composite (L) - Circa 2004 - Ksyriums SL wheels, CF seatpost, Alu bars, DA 9-speed, full carbon fork - this one came in at 17.5lbs

Trek 2300 - circa 2004 - Velomax Tempest II wheels, Ultegra 9-speed, Easton CF bars, Bontrager CF fork w/Steel steerer, etc.. - around 18.5lbs

2007 Concours (~60cm) - Velomax Tempest II wheels, SRAM Rival, F3 8.5 fork, Not a single CF component other then the fork - 17.6lbs

Of the 3 the Giant had ride/handling issues.. it went fine, but it didn't inspire confidence on descents, etc..

So no.. for me my Serotta is not overweight. And it could easily have a lot of weight shaved.. for example I have a Thomson seatpost.. it's like 10cm too long.. if I just replaced it with the correct length it would shave a lot. I could add CF bars, upgrade to DA, Force, Red, Record, etc.. I bet I could get it down to 16.5lbs easy.. it will probably get lighter when I start wearing stuff out.. although I purposely built the bike for maximum durability so it would be a few years I'm sure.

Here is how I would rank those by the way.

BB Stiffness:
1 - Concours
2- Trek 2300
3 - Trek 2200
4 - TCR Composite

Smoothness on a rough road:
1 - TCR Composite
2- Concours (close behind - but I think the wheels make the difference)
3 - Trek 2200
4 - Trek 2300 (WAY behind the other 3)

Handling:
1 - Concours (Pretty far ahead of everything else)
2 - Trek 2300
3 - Trek 2200
4 - TCR Composite

Climbing:
1/2 - Concours/TCR Tied
3 - Trek 2300
4 - Trek 2200

Sprinting:
1 - Concours (Pretty far ahead of everything else)
2 - Trek 2300
3 - TCR
4 - Trek 2200

If a Meivici in the same size/geometry shaves a full pound off the frame weight of my Concours and yet could maintain the same ride & stiffness characteristics... that's a damn fine frame.

At my best I'm like 169lbs.. I'm 178lbs right now.. that makes a far bigger difference then anything..

[SoCalSteve]

Yeh, I hate it when the guys with the light bikes drop me on a hill...

Post of the day!

[deechee]

I have honestly never weighed my bike or parts; my LBS tried weighing my frame once after it came back from repairs but it was too heavy for their weenie scale.

That said, I think Serotta doesn't bother with weights because they could probably make a super light frame for a super light, short person but don't bother because they know that's not their market.

My steel Serotta probably weighs a bit more than my old alu bike with lighter wheels but I've never really felt the difference although they were geared differently (had a compact on the Serotta.) Anyway I'm not even a big guy and I know I could stand to lose another 5-10lbs before the weight comes off the bike. I'm just happy its not the 30lb monster I used to mountain bike with.

[92degrees]

If weight mattered to me, and I was considering a Serotta for all of the reasons people consider Serotta, I would ask them to build me the lightest bike that would meet my various needs? It's a custom bike? Choices of tubeset, geometry, fork?

[Ti Designs]

I knew this girl who raced years ago, she said she "you always need an excuse as good as your rear derailleur", which is to say you need really good excuses or a cheap rear derailleur. My conclusion from all of this is that excuses are heavy. If you get blown away on a 13 pound bike, you got no excuses. If you get blown away on a 25 pound bike you got at least 8 more excuses than the guy on the 13 pound bike. If you ride a 25 pound fixed gear you don't need excuses.

Speaking of excuses, my piano has no sense of timing...

[bnewt07]

If weight mattered to me, and I was considering a Serotta for all of the reasons people consider Serotta, I would ask them to build me the lightest bike that would meet my various needs? It's a custom bike? Choices of tubeset, geometry, fork?

Yes. However it arguably harder to tell them how much to push it down the 'weight loss' frame spec route if you don't actually know the weight of a typical build compared to your expectations or current bike.

I don't want an ultralite bike, but I want one that is in the expected ballpark for my serious investment!

FWIW I'm skinny as a rake and live in a VERY hilly area!

[92degrees]

Yes. However it arguably harder to tell them how much to push it down the 'weight loss' frame spec route if you don't actually know the weight of a typical build compared to your expectations or current bike.

I don't want an ultralite bike, but I want one that is in the expected ballpark for my serious investment!

I certainly can't imagine talking to any builder and saying "I want you to cut .4lbs off of a typical frame." Huh? I was thinking more along the lines of telling your fitter that you are interested in a climbing bike and that you would like the frame as light as is appropriate for your bodyweight, etc. I can't begin to believe that any new Serotta isn't in the "expected ballpark" for frame weight.

[pdxmech13]

I am hearing that most parts and bikes will be getting heavier for safety reasons. This aint no investment either......but just another expense.


I don't want an ultralite bike, but I want one that is in the expected ballpark for my serious investment!

[gt6267a]

I don't think it is unreasonable for Serotta to post a typical frame weight of the non-custom frames. In theory all GS level bike frames of a given size will way the same. the same would be true of the HSG bikes etc. A potential purchaser can then decide for themselves how important any weight difference is between the brands and models they are considering. Not publishing a frame weight seems to perpetuate the myth that they are heavy to my mind, indeed almost makes it look like they are hiding it.

I know weight isn't EVERYTHING; but I also know that it is SOMETHING to consider, especially if you live in a very hilly area as I do. I want to consider factors such as weight vs stiffness vs compliance etc in selecting my custom build, with Serotta or whoever.

Seven quote variations in typical frame weight between 2.5 and 3.6lbs for their various titanium framed models, so it is possible to have pretty big differences within one material type. I think most riders would feel that degree of difference.

Spoke asked : what models am I looking at? Answer: Legend Ti/Lynksey level 3 probably.

With a spread as large as 2.5 – 3.6 lbs what are you learning about the bike that will help make a decision about YOUR bike? I will guess nothing. It seems even more futile than putting down a single number.

The GS line is custom but with less customizations than a legend so you have the same problems with the ES or custom bikes in reporting weight.

My 2001 Legend is 16.8 lbs with cages and pedals and ready to ride. Though everything is pretty high-end, there is nothing crazy bling on it either. How light do you want to go?

I suspect that if you order a Serotta, Lynsky, and Seven … your bikes will end up being about the same size (notice I did not say exactly the same size, no doubt there will be differences in geometry and/or fit as is fitting for the builder). They will all use the best Ti available which probably means it will be similar or the same Ti. With a similar size bike and similar tubing … they will probably all weigh a similar amount. i.e. less than 8oz difference. Unless you tell Serotta “I must have the lightest bike possible” and tell Seven “I want to be able to roll logs on that mo fo” than maybe the weight diff would be more than 8oz, but would you really do that? No, you will give them the same instructions…

My point here is that between these companies, take weight out of the decision criteria because it does not exist. Not just theoretically, but in reality these things are going to weigh almost the same.

Further, given the “they all use the same crap” argument, if one ends up being a bit heavier … its not like Serotta / Seven … whoever is unaware of weight concerns in building a frame … they just value the benefits of weight Vs some other criteria that is important to them. So, if they choose to use a tube that is 3 oz heavier than the lightest tube available, they did so for a reason. Given their experience, that reason is worth it. Take on the 3 oz and ask if they have any other reasons … because you want them all. Err, I want them all.

[Climb01742]

to the original poster, ask this question on weightweenies and compare the answers. context (or in this case, forum) is everything.

ask a model what's more important, beauty or brains? ask a PhD candidate the same question.

there is no right answer. just different answerers.

personally, i liked 1centaur's answer.

[benb]

I really want to know how many of these stupid light CF frames today are actually going to last 5-10 years under a strong rider who rides them 5-6 days a week most of the year and is faithful to that one bike.

I didn't mention it in my previous post.. of those 4 bikes I described..

Trek 2200 - Cracked the chainstay at the beginning of the 4th season (Something like 15k miles?)

Trek 2300 - Back end of the bike creaking noticeably at the end of the 2nd season - Sold it at the beginning of this year before getting my Concours.

Giant - I didn't break it, but I never really trusted it.. sold it after 6 months, 2000 miles or so. I did win 2 races on it.. so I owe it something.. but I wouldn't have taken any bets on that lasting for years.

My Serotta is dead silent and feels like it will last forever.. that's important.

I shouldn't be so down on Giant I guess.. I got rid of a cheap Giant Aluminum MTB frame earlier this year that I put many thousands of miles on... durable and trustworthy to the end and crashed countless times... (Heck one time I got pissed and threw it down a hill!) Although I replaced it with a Giant NRS frame which I highly suspect I will break eventually.

[Ti Designs]

ask a model what's more important, beauty or brains? ask a PhD candidate the same question.



James,

When you throw out a pop quiz you need to post the answers at the bottom or you'll just confuse the heck out of most of us.

Here's my stab at an answer:

The PhD candidate will look at their earnings potential for the next few years while seeing some blond drive by in a Porsche and answer "beauty". The model woun't understand the question, do the hair flip thing and drive away in her Porsche. The cyclist will say "legs" at first but then change it to "lungs". Giving this question a lot of thought I would have to answer "parents".

Did I fail???

[John H.]

Components and wheels have a bigger influence on bike weights than frames do.
Both my Legend and Ottrott weight somewhere around 2.8 lb., my Parlee was about 2.4- so only about 180 grams between what people consider a light bike and a heavy bike.
FWIW- Pegs are not light and they get nothing but love on this forum!

[bnewt07]

I'll quit this thread now before I come across as a weight obsessive. I'm not. I'm choosing a special bike, built as custom for me to be something to cherish-and ride for a very long time. I'm an experienced cyclist and I've ridden a big variety of bikes. I'm no fool when it comes to interpreting hype and pseudo-science on bike company websites.

My priorities are; fit first, second and third. I want quality construction, and dealer/manufacturer back up if it is wrong in any way! I want it to be sharp to ride but comfortable over my longer mileage days. I'd like it to look nice 'cos I'm shallow like that. I'd like it to be durable.

The big bugger (and nice problem to have) is that the three manufacturers I'm considering can give me all that lot so I'm just kicking around little details rather than making my mind up.

Thanks all for contributing. I'm no nearer choosing, but then you all knew that would be the case didn't you.

[Len J]

I'll quit this thread now before I come across as a weight obsessive. I'm not. I'm choosing a special bike, built as custom for me to be something to cherish-and ride for a very long time. I'm an experienced cyclist and I've ridden a big variety of bikes. I'm no fool when it comes to interpreting hype and pseudo-science on bike company websites.

My priorities are; fit first, second and third. I want quality construction, and dealer/manufacturer back up if it is wrong in any way! I want it to be sharp to ride but comfortable over my longer mileage days. I'd like it to look nice 'cos I'm shallow like that. I'd like it to be durable.

The big bugger (and nice problem to have) is that the three manufacturers I'm considering can give me all that lot so I'm just kicking around little details rather than making my mind up.

Thanks all for contributing. I'm no nearer choosing, but then you all knew that would be the case didn't you.

or Seven or If, I wouldn't publish weight as part of my offer.

The reason I wouldn't is because it dilutes the quality image I'm trying to portray, IMO.

The truth is that with any of these companies, you can get a great bike....if you know yourself, your contact points, your intended uses and what comprimises you are willing to accept to get what you want.

Serotta is aimed at people that want the highest quality and highest balance of durability, ride quality and weight (with weight being the last thing to be aimed for of the 3).....if that works for you, great, if not, so be it.

My experience, BTW, is that the frame weight difference between Serotta and competitive brands (on a similar material basis) is less than 1/2 pound. To me, that is immaterial.

YMMV

len

[Ken Robb]

If you want to really save weight, get rid of those derailers and brifters.
I can never understand people whinning about weight when they have
so much extra stuff hanging on their bike. I mean you can only ride
1 gear at time anyway. People who want to be weight weenies need to
be certified to have 5% or less body fat. [cranky mode off]

Scott G.
I'm just wondering how you ride all the mountains in Ohio. :) I couldn't ride a mile from my home on a single-speed without walking up a hill. Heck I have to consider limiting my choice of route when I ride a double but I'm old and weak.

[Ahneida Ride]

Serotta is custom with a wide spectrum of tubes. I suspect they could
shave off every gram and deliver a frame lighter then helium upon one's
request. Part of custom means that the customer must transmit his/her
desires to Serotta.

My 64 Rapid Tour Legend Ti is not light. It was not designed to be. The built up bike must weigh 23+ pounds or so. Now add water bottles and all the gear I usually carry in my Carradice Zip-roll bag.

I have to be pushing around 275+ pounds at least! Does one actually believe
that 6 oz on the Serotta frame is going to make any difference? If anything
that extra 6 oz of Ti creates a far more stable and comfortable ride, enhancing performance!

I can get up hills precisely because of the fact that the frame is heavy!

It's all about the ride, not the weight. This bike has the right amount of
flex and is infinitely stable. It's alive.

One needs to focus on not just weight, but intended use and ride characteristics.

[Ken Robb]

Yes. However it arguably harder to tell them how much to push it down the 'weight loss' frame spec route if you don't actually know the weight of a typical build compared to your expectations or current bike.

I don't want an ultralite bike, but I want one that is in the expected ballpark for my serious investment!

FWIW I'm skinny as a rake and live in a VERY hilly area!

OK, I give up. If you are considering a Legend or Lynskey III it will be a custom build won't it? So, what do you care what a stock frame weighs? If you don't have enough confidence in your choice of builder/designer to discuss your desires with them and let them build the frame/fork to the best of their considerable abilities I think you should go weigh and test ride all the stock bikes you can find and buy the one you like best. It might even be the lightest---or not. :) :beer:

[SPOKE]

Spoke asked : what models am I looking at? Answer: Legend Ti/Lynksey level 3 probably.

the difference between these two frames will be no more than 2-3 onces. the serotta most likely will be the lighter one if you do a custom build. if the Lynskey is built custom then it might be lighter but doubtful. if you use a Reynolds UL fork on the Lynskey and an F3 on the Serotta then the Lynskey package will be a bit lighter but IMO won't feel as secure and stable as the Serotta. build quality will be excellent with the Serotta and good to very good with the Lynskey (i am a Lynskey dealer by the way). i'll assume that both will be built with custom geometry?? if so, then the weight differences between the two frames will be nill as long as you provid the same ride quality descriptions to each builder.
i have put about 200 miles on a stock level 3 Lynskey and thought it was pretty much equal to my Legend Ti in ride quality. the only exception to this is that the Lynskey seemed to be a bit more "twisty" in the front end when you pull and push on the handle bars. the Legend resisted this "twisting" more.
the finish and details on the Serotta are nicer IMO.
hope this helps.

[mjb266]

It's similar to dating...substance is what leads to a happy long term relationship, weight is just fun to flaunt in front of your friends.

I think that everyone grappling with the weight question knows the real answer in the back of their head. You know you should buy the best all around bike in terms of fit, handling, materials, etc.

If you're in the UK you should try to track down Marcel Wurst's review of a otrott a few years back in ProCycling mag. He loved the thing as much as any bike he'd tested.

Colnago c-50's are also "heavy" but who's kicking one of those out of bed?

[benb]

Why not get a draft and frame weight estimate from each of the manufacturers.. I'm sure they can provide you with a good estimate.

If your 5'2" and I'm 6'1" and we ask for the exact same characteristics my frame will still be way heavier then yours... making it a bit silly to list weights on the web.

I met someone who had a Seven.. he was 6'4" and was a powerful ultramarathon rider... he'd managed to break everything he rode due to his power output and mileage. So he had Seven build him a frame with a Tandem tubeset. Seven was sure embarassed about the frame weight... but it didn't break.

[Steve Hampsten]

When I think of "light titanium" I think of "flexy". At 175# I find that most ti frames I ride hit that sweet spot between comfort and rigid.

If it was me buying this frame I'd give the builder - and you have three good builders to choose from - my weight and riding style and mention a desire for a light frame (if that's what you want) and let the builder take care of the rest. I do not recommend you start adding "stiff" to the equation.

Serotta is known for building stiff frames, Lynsky for...well, for being Lynsky, Seven for fine-tuning a frame to a customer's desires (for better or worse). There's no wrong answer but I wouldn't overthink it either.

[Samster]

As a current weight-weenie, let me be the one of the last to say that pounds on a bike are largely irrelevant in the narrow 1.5lb - 2lb band that most of these frames "compete" in. As someone above mentioned, just carry/drink less water. For that matter, just don't eat or drink for a couple of days before every ride. Then pedal hard enough to make yourself puke. You will be a fitter package overall. :banana: :D ;)

[davids]

I'll quit this thread now before I come across as a weight obsessive. I'm not. I'm choosing a special bike, built as custom for me to be something to cherish-and ride for a very long time. I'm an experienced cyclist and I've ridden a big variety of bikes. I'm no fool when it comes to interpreting hype and pseudo-science on bike company websites.

My priorities are; fit first, second and third. I want quality construction, and dealer/manufacturer back up if it is wrong in any way! I want it to be sharp to ride but comfortable over my longer mileage days. I'd like it to look nice 'cos I'm shallow like that. I'd like it to be durable.

The big bugger (and nice problem to have) is that the three manufacturers I'm considering can give me all that lot so I'm just kicking around little details rather than making my mind up.

Thanks all for contributing. I'm no nearer choosing, but then you all knew that would be the case didn't you.
I understand where you're coming from - It's hard not to obsess about the minutia when you're facing a choice like this. Try to find another obsessive focus instead - How about the location of the shifter bosses? ;)

Good luck with your choice. You can't go very wrong with any of the frames your considering. (I'd recommend the Serotta, though!)

[I Want Sachs?]

For those who cares about weight, 1-2 ounces or 1% difference, matters a lot.

Just like for those who talks of durability, a frame potentially lasting 3 times longer matters a lot, even though most of us will not ride our bikes to the point of failure, and we will likely change bike first before completely update the failing components. Heck, I can get an entry level Giant 5 times over with money to spare compared to Meivici. The one Giant will probably last a lot longer than most of us, especilly outlasting our wandering lust for new bikes.

Just like for those who cares about the feel of the bike, the subtle vibration or handling feel matters a lot. So much so that we are willing to pay 3 to 4 times for a Serotta instead of an airborne. In fact, most of Serotta riders have not try the el cheapo feel of those bikes before asserting their opinion.

I think it is ridiculous whenever someone wants to get the real fact about weigtht of a bike brand you lilke, many jump on to praise durability and ride but ignoring the original question. The fact is, the buyer can choose, so offer factual answers (not just opinionated answers) about what he/she asks for. For example, if I go to a car dealer and ask about weight of a Honda Civic to compare to Toyota Prius, and the dealer starts talking about how much more power Honda engine has, it makes me wonder why the real answer is not forthcoming. Maybe what I care about is perceived safety the weight carries, maybe it is about gas comsumption of heavier car, maybe it is about acceleration, maybe it is just the braggin right. Give the real answer and let the person who receives the information process it for him/herself. I do realize that this is a forum for discussion, so certainly you are free to offer your opinion about why weight does or does not matter, but at least give an answer to the original question.

BTW: Yes, Serotta is heavier than Seven for similarly intended bikes in my experience. My experience with ti bike is that the lighter the frame, the bike starts to feel tinny, and the heavier the frame, the road seems to smooth out. In this case the lighter Seven was stiffer and jolting, while the heavier Serotta (by 1/4 pound) was bouncier in the pedaling up the hill and silkier in the road feel.

Now let me get my flame retardant suit on. :beer:

[tch]

I think it is ridiculous whenever someone wants to get the real fact about weigtht of a bike brand you lilke, many jump on to praise durability and ride but ignoring the original question. The fact is, the buyer can choose, so offer factual answers (not just opinionated answers) about what he/she asks for.
I think the problem is that no answer is really completely possible. 1)as a couple of people already said, "manufacturer's weights" are suspect -- what they are claiming is arrived at through a variety of manipulations (is it a 52cm frame or a 58cm frame, pedals or without, every frame or just this one specific one that they are advertising....?) And, 2)weights for Serottas are of custom bikes, so my Concours will weigh more/less than someone else's Concours (sorry, Legend SE). It's just not a situation where there is a black and white answer.

[Tobias]

I see an 18-pound bike under a 120-pound female as similar to a 30-pound bike under a 200-pound guy (see that often? :rolleyes: ).
Personally, I hate it most when a skinny girl drops me on a climb on a bike that weighs as much as mine.

[Fixed]

I knew this girl who raced years ago, she said she "you always need an excuse as good as your rear derailleur", which is to say you need really good excuses or a cheap rear derailleur. My conclusion from all of this is that excuses are heavy. If you get blown away on a 13 pound bike, you got no excuses. If you get blown away on a 25 pound bike you got at least 8 more excuses than the guy on the 13 pound bike. If you ride a 25 pound fixed gear you don't need excuses.

Speaking of excuses, my piano has no sense of timing...
+1 well said
cheers imho

[cadence90]

Was the original question "'Serotta's are heavy'. Fact or fiction?" ?

Fact. Period.

[gt6267a]

the difference between these two frames will be no more than 2-3 onces. the serotta most likely will be the lighter one if you do a custom build. if the Lynskey is built custom then it might be lighter but doubtful. if you use a Reynolds UL fork on the Lynskey and an F3 on the Serotta then the Lynskey package will be a bit lighter but IMO won't feel as secure and stable as the Serotta. build quality will be excellent with the Serotta and good to very good with the Lynskey (i am a Lynskey dealer by the way). i'll assume that both will be built with custom geometry?? if so, then the weight differences between the two frames will be nill as long as you provid the same ride quality descriptions to each builder.
i have put about 200 miles on a stock level 3 Lynskey and thought it was pretty much equal to my Legend Ti in ride quality. the only exception to this is that the Lynskey seemed to be a bit more "twisty" in the front end when you pull and push on the handle bars. the Legend resisted this "twisting" more.
the finish and details on the Serotta are nicer IMO.
hope this helps.

talk about being on point. nice work.

[Fixed]

bro my merckx feels lighter than my alum bike from china with ssl mavic k. d.a.9. etc. ... the merckx is all steel with da.8 op wheels standard stuff .
it the merckx ride is alive and light ..

[palincss]

Does a bike that is 10% lighter (say about 2 pounds lighter) that represents a total difference of only 1 percent of the total bike/rider weight “feel” 10% lighter under the rider or does it “feel” 1% lighter?


Can you feel the difference after emptying a water bottle?

[DukeHorn]

I don't think you're weight obsessive. It's a legitimate question for the gearheads here, especially when you're going to shell out significant money and you're choosing between some of the premium builders out there.

You're buying a luxury item and you should investigate all the issues to your heart's content.

Part of the fun of getting a custom is the research and interacting with the builders. I mean how many custom bikes are you going to have made in your lifetime (errr, that's just a rhetorical question)? ;)

[swoop]

here's the poop... i think there were a lot of guys rolling around on nicely made ti serottas that were (frankly) a little heavier and a little softer riding and typically were under guys that would benefit from that kind of bike. i look at pics posted here and most folks are a good 20 lbs north of what a strong real bike racer weighs and maybe a few years north too...

i think serotta kind of woke-up from the post Atlanta slumber with the Ottrott model and postal masters team. and then again really woke-up with the HSG and cleaning-up the line this year... and the Mievici custom carbon too. I dont' know anyone really racing a Meivici (I'm willing to if they give me one at cost by the way. no, please... james call me). really racing means 40 or more races a year and with guys that have eating disorders and can suffer till their eyes bleed.

an actual race bike and a race-like bike are two different things and there are only but a few guys here that would find that a race bike suits their needs. i don't think many among us can even assume the position on the bike.

frankly, i chuckle at a lot of our product reveiws because i doubt many of us are capable of pushing gear into its own. you can't do a wheel reveiw at 18 miles an hour.

Serotta isn't delusional and makes a bike for the rider and most of the time it is a little heavier and a little softer... and tends towards the sublime.

and i think the world is littered with guys that bought love#3's and big leg emmas that find those bike are a little too stiff or a little too nervous for how they actually use them... and maybe secretly love the bikes but would be better off with something softer.

so, if you are going to do 50 races a year and your body fat is single digit.. you need to communicate that to them to get the bike that's right for you (i think that means 16 lbs or under and stiff as hell). i gotta beleive that's about 5% or less of the market for Serotta. So, they are building the right bike for the reality of their customer... yeah.. it can be heavier. From my perspective. i think Serotta tries to filter out the ego and the insecurities and maybe some of the delusions of the well intentioned customer and gives them the bike they think will function for them in the real world.

i don't think the majority of folks would feel good set-up in the position on a real race bike. i don't think most folks can tell the weight of the bike or how it might affect the ride except in the most novel and trivial of ways.

atmo.

[Fixed]

i love swoop
cheers

[Serotta_James]

Good points made by everyone here in this thread, imo.

I've weighed all the 2008 bikes that have been produced for our photo shoots and sales samples so far. They're all stock, which gives us a good baseline for comparison, but doesn't necessarily give us accurate information about how much or little a custom bike will weigh.

The HSG Carbon pictured is a size 56, obviously non-sloping top tube w/ S-Fork, SRAM Force Kit, Zipp CSC Clinchers, blah, blah.

Frame weight: 1190 grams
Full bike weight (as pictured): 15.8 lbs.

Not bad to me...

[swoop]

Good points made by everyone here in this thread, imo.

I've weighed all the 2008 bikes that have been produced for our photo shoots and sales samples so far. They're all stock, which gives us a good baseline for comparison, but doesn't necessarily give us accurate information about how much or little a custom bike will weigh.

The HSG Carbon pictured is a size 56, obviously non-sloping top tube w/ S-Fork, SRAM Force Kit, Zipp CSC Clinchers, blah, blah.

Frame weight: 1190 grams
Full bike weight (as pictured): 15.8 lbs.

Not bad to me...

i beleive the word is 'dialed'.

i'm gonna add a ps. i've seen a lot of guys own serotta ti bikes and ride them a ton... i'd see them out training as much as i do... and then get turned off of them at the coffee shop when the other dudes roll in with the newest lightest and stiffest race bike.. so they sell the serotta and get the new rig and have an 'oh boy this is stiffer and lighter and what was i thinking' moment. and thee about 2 months later you don't see those guys riding anymore.... they fall out of love with putting in the miles... because between you and me, they're on bikes now that are too much work for them and they enjoy the riding less and don't know why.

atmo.

[cpg]

Good points made by everyone here in this thread, imo.

I've weighed all the 2008 bikes that have been produced for our photo shoots and sales samples so far. They're all stock, which gives us a good baseline for comparison, but doesn't necessarily give us accurate information about how much or little a custom bike will weigh.

The HSG Carbon pictured is a size 56, obviously non-sloping top tube w/ S-Fork, SRAM Force Kit, Zipp CSC Clinchers, blah, blah.

Frame weight: 1190 grams
Full bike weight (as pictured): 15.8 lbs.

Not bad to me...

You see this is the problem with Serotta. They go and weigh a 56cm instead of a 53cm like everybody else. No wonder the bikes are heavy! Come on James get with the program. Nice freakin' bike!

Curt

[Fixed]

bro 56's perfect
cheers
imho
I bet james rides a 56

[sg8357]

and i think the world is littered with guys that bought love#3's and big leg emmas that find those bike are a little too stiff or a little too nervous for how they actually use them... and maybe secretly love the bikes but would be better off with something softer.

That is Waterford and Rivendells main operating area.
The Waterford dealer sells a lot of what he calls "old guy bikes"

Check out the poll running, even Serotta is only 20% racers.

[soulspinner]

I got a friend who is freakishly the same size as me. We are virtual equals.( He is younger though). We can ride each others bikes with only a 2mm seat height adjustment. My buddies race Giant is a lot lighter than my Strong(steel at 17.96 with pedals and 2003 Chorus) When we have at it the guy with the most miles in his legs wins regardless of which bike they are on. Make the weight thing only as a tiebreaker if everything else is equal. It wont be. Something else will tip the scales. You will have a bike you will love Im sure.

[swoop]

That is Waterford and Rivendells main operating area.
The Waterford dealer sells a lot of what he calls "old guy bikes"

Check out the poll running, even Serotta is only 20% racers.

take that 20% of racers and break it down hours per week training and miles raced and i'm willing to bet there's about 1 or 2 of that 18 at the elite level.
justin races. he goes through things mentally and physically than you and i can't imagine.
i play t-ball in pro looking gear. and it still takes a good 20 hours a week just to show up. i wouldn't call what i do and what he does.. as being of the same thing. atmo.

[Larry]

It would seem that a well-designed, supremely engineered, and well- fitted bike that is a little heavier would tend to be more stable.
Just try fighting a strong crosswind going down hill at 44 mph.
I would feel safer on the heavier bike....no question!
I would go for the riding manners of a Serotta anytime.

[Fat Robert]

this is all bull****t


if you think your bike is "heavy" you are either:

* paid to ride your bike in races, in which case, you shut up and get on with it

* a freaking poser who needs to train more, or just accept his genetic limitations

* an internet jerk off who wants to brag about his light bike.

[Pete Serotta]

"a little heavier and softer" SEROTTA - - I do not agree.

One can custom the tubing for size, ride, and feedback. No I am not a racer and am older than dirt but I get my frame built for quickness in steering and for strength(non flex). This works for me - even though I am a poor racer and definitely could lose a few lbs... so what ;)

Folks like SEROTTA, SACHs, Kirk, Goodrich, can put a regular person who likes to ride on a race bike.. and some can tell the difference if that is what the ride is they want.... That fits my want - -definitely not my needs.

As to race bike vs non _ it is all in the legs of the rider.....the bike is just what is between the legs.... :cool:

the more comfortable your are with your position the more you may like to ride and the more your ride the more your position can lead to the racer type, if that is what you want.

My Honda S2000 is a wonderful ride on a curvy road but I sure would not like to drive it 700 miles in one day and would feel it at the end of the day.

just my two cents....Pete


here's the poop... i think there were a lot of guys rolling around on nicely made ti serottas that were (frankly) a little heavier and a little softer riding and typically were under guys that would benefit from that kind of bike. i look at pics posted here and most folks are a good 20 lbs north of what a strong real bike racer weighs and maybe a few years north too...

i think serotta kind of woke-up from the post Atlanta slumber with the Ottrott model and postal masters team. and then again really woke-up with the HSG and cleaning-up the line this year... and the Mievici custom carbon too. I dont' know anyone really racing a Meivici (I'm willing to if they give me one at cost by the way. no, please... james call me). really racing means 40 or more races a year and with guys that have eating disorders and can suffer till their eyes bleed.

an actual race bike and a race-like bike are two different things and there are only but a few guys here that would find that a race bike suits their needs. i don't think many among us can even assume the position on the bike.

frankly, i chuckle at a lot of our product reveiws because i doubt many of us are capable of pushing gear into its own. you can't do a wheel reveiw at 18 miles an hour.

Serotta isn't delusional and makes a bike for the rider and most of the time it is a little heavier and a little softer... and tends towards the sublime.

and i think the world is littered with guys that bought love#3's and big leg emmas that find those bike are a little too stiff or a little too nervous for how they actually use them... and maybe secretly love the bikes but would be better off with something softer.

so, if you are going to do 50 races a year and your body fat is single digit.. you need to communicate that to them to get the bike that's right for you (i think that means 16 lbs or under and stiff as hell). i gotta beleive that's about 5% or less of the market for Serotta. So, they are building the right bike for the reality of their customer... yeah.. it can be heavier. From my perspective. i think Serotta tries to filter out the ego and the insecurities and maybe some of the delusions of the well intentioned customer and gives them the bike they think will function for them in the real world.

i don't think the majority of folks would feel good set-up in the position on a real race bike. i don't think most folks can tell the weight of the bike or how it might affect the ride except in the most novel and trivial of ways.

atmo.

[Larry]

i beleive the word is 'dialed'.

i'm gonna add a ps. i've seen a lot of guys own serotta ti bikes and ride them a ton... i'd see them out training as much as i do... and then get turned off of them at the coffee shop when the other dudes roll in with the newest lightest and stiffest race bike.. so they sell the serotta and get the new rig and have an 'oh boy this is stiffer and lighter and what was i thinking' moment. and thee about 2 months later you don't see those guys riding anymore.... they fall out of love with putting in the miles... because between you and me, they're on bikes now that are too much work for them and they enjoy the riding less and don't know why.

atmo.

Swoop,

Right on!
You hit the Bulls-Eye !!

[mosca]

If you want a light ti bike, go paintless. A nice paint job can add 100 grams or more.

[swoop]

hey.. ps... i'm not trying to polarize or make anyone feel bad. no one says bike racing is more important than bike riding. there isn't a hierarchy.
its all about you and what you do.

but pete you're on crack (its a joke..the last part here). *hugs*

[Pete Serotta]

:beer: yep......
hey.. ps... i'm not trying to polarize or make anyone feel bad. no one says bike racing is more important than bike riding. there isn't a hierarchy.
its all about you and what you do.

[CaptStash]

The HSG Carbon pictured is a size 56, obviously non-sloping top tube w/ S-Fork, SRAM Force Kit, Zipp CSC Clinchers, blah, blah.

Frame weight: 1190 grams
Full bike weight (as pictured): 15.8 lbs.

Not bad to me...

When I built up my bike, I got really silly about wieght and was bound and determined to bring it in under 16 pounds with pedals. My frame, which is Scandium aluminum weighs just shy of 2.5 pounds which is a touch less than the gorgeous HSG Carbon pictured. But the full up bike weighs a little more. The lesson I learned is that the frame weight is just the beginning of the story, and a lot can be done with components. Also, my bike is very stiff and unforgiving. It is the most responsiove bike I have ridden, but I am the first to admit that after 50 miles or so you begin to feel beat up. I compare that to the ride on either my steel LeMonde or my McMahon titianium bike which are both far more comfy, yet less responsive.

My conclusion? Doin't worry so much about weight, but if it is important, be a weanie with your components and get the frame that fits and responds best for your riding style. BEsides, the weight of the parts that rotate (pedals, cranks and wheels) are far more important than any other weight as they are subject to rotational inertia. That's why a bike with lighter wheels and cranks accelarates so much faster.

CaptStash....

[SimonC]

You know what? After reading this thread I'm really looking forward to getting up in the morning and hammering seven shades of ***** out of my MX Leader.

Isn't that what it's all about?

[davids]

My (non-racer) experience supports what swoop said. I've got two bikes that I consider outstanding - My Serotta Nove and my Pegoretti Love #3. The Nove is softer than the Love #3 - It absorbs more vibration, seems to react to my pedaling in a 'springier' way than the Love, etc...

If I had to live with only one bike, it would be the Nove. It's the right bike for a 47 year old guy who rides 3,500 miles a year and, on a good day, averages 18 mph. It's the bike for riding hours on end.

The Love #3 is smooth and solid, and my power goes right to the rear axle. It's great for my 90 minute morning rides. I haven't tried riding it much more than 2 hours at a time, and don't plan on it.

I can't push either of these bikes to their limits - Maybe a handful of people here could get into that zone. So it's a completely academic question for me. I understand that the Peg is probably the better tool for the guy weaving through the pack towards the finish line at 35 mph.

I appreciate the Peg for the fine-riding race bike it is, and enjoy riding the product of a great framebuilder's passion. Ditto for the Nove.

As far as which one is faster? No difference. Because it's not the bike that's fast or slow, it's me.

(And once again - weight isn't the difference. They're both sufficiently light.)

[vaxn8r]

Good points made by everyone here in this thread, imo.

I've weighed all the 2008 bikes that have been produced for our photo shoots and sales samples so far. They're all stock, which gives us a good baseline for comparison, but doesn't necessarily give us accurate information about how much or little a custom bike will weigh.

The HSG Carbon pictured is a size 56, obviously non-sloping top tube w/ S-Fork, SRAM Force Kit, Zipp CSC Clinchers, blah, blah.

Frame weight: 1190 grams
Full bike weight (as pictured): 15.8 lbs.

Not bad to me...
How many Serottas come out the door looking like that one?

James is on to something I think.

ps. That is not a rhetorical question. Look at how many Serotta in the image gallery have 19 cm head tubes on 56 cm frames. That's your 3 ounces right there.

[djg]

Can you feel the difference after emptying a water bottle?

Well sure. I mean, at first I don't feel so thirsty, and then, later, I have to ... :banana:

Sorry, I digress.

[soulspinner]

You know what? After reading this thread I'm really looking forward to getting up in the morning and hammering seven shades of ***** out of my MX Leader.

Isn't that what it's all about?

+1000

[Dekonick]

The Serotta ride speaks for itself. Stability and control and comfort.
If weight is a big issue, get a generic carbon or whatever. Each to his own.
Unless you are a big-time mountain climber, it just does not mean alot .
Ride on.

I seem to remember Johny Cash climbing some serious hills in that other european country... you know - the one where they make cheese and watches... :)

[Ahneida Ride]

I hate it most when a skinny girl drops me on a climb on a bike that weighs as much as mine.


I've grown accustom to this !!!! ;)

[rwsaunders]

If you want a light ti bike, go paintless. A nice paint job can add 100 grams or more.

So that's why my bike is so heavy. :cool:

[mosca]

So that's why my bike is so heavy. :cool:
Yep, paint's been slowing me down for years. :D

[jerk]

i call everyone out on all of this. weight does make a difference and even the best steel builders out there whom you would all assume don't give a flying fruck about weight secretly obsess about it.

my dogma is an 18.5 pound tank and if i'm lugging that thing up hills i definatly feel it. i also notice the weight when i'm having a crappy day or haven't ridden much. it's just a bike that wants to be pushed hard and ridden fast and the whole package (frame, wheels, geometry, bars position etc.) demands a certain lifestyle i'm not always up to.

that being said; i test rode a 15 pound lemond in the vermont gaps awhile back; and while it lacked top tube rigidity and was a bit softer than my dogma and definatly not my "style" bike for the short hammer sessions i find the time to do; it was a pleasant bike that seemed far more suited to long climbs...alot of that was due to the weight.

so i think to a certain extent you guys have got it backwards.....a good race bike, at least for most races that don't involve hor categorie climbs and 300km stages....a heavy stiff bike with aero wheels is the best way to go.

with the exception of the new pinarello prince i have never in my life ridden a sub 1200gram frame that exhibited a solid enough feel along the top tube for it to be a choice as a race bike were i buying it myself.


jerk

[Elefantino]

When I was hammering, or slugging, up Hogpen Gap on Sunday, the fact that my Serotta weighed a pound plus more than my Specialized did not enter my mind.

And I climbed the mountain faster on the Serotta.

I do not know what to make of this fact. Because of the weight difference, by all accounts I should still be climbing on the Serotta.

I was wearing carbon-soled shoes, however. And a lighter helmet.

[1centaur]

my dogma is an 18.5 pound tank and if i'm lugging that thing up hills i definatly feel it. i also notice the weight when i'm having a crappy day or haven't ridden much. jerk

My goodness sir, it's not about whether sometimes you can "feel" it!! It's about whether you'll be faster, because it's all about the engine. Oh wait, that's not what the OP asked, is it? 7 pages of misdirected answers later...

I actually thought the answer about the relative weights of Ti bikes was right on. Once you've decided on custom Ti that you want to ride a certain way, the weight differences are likely to be really, really small. It's when you compare 18.5 pound tanks to 15.5 pound mountain goats that the import of 2% total weight differences becomes apparent to even the most indifferent of cycling studs, at least on rare occasions. The rest of the lone wolves around here pick up on it a little quicker, but 100 grams is really tough to care about or notice in relation to build quality.

[Tobias]

If you want a light ti bike, go paintless. A nice paint job can add 100 grams or more.I have a friend who went paintless for that reason.

[Serotta_James]

I have a friend who went paintless for that reason.

I have a friend who went pantless. He was lighter too.

[Tobias]

I've grown accustom to this !!!! ;)The only saving grace for my ego is that she drops most guys on a regular basis. She is only 120 lbs and rides a bike that weighs over 18 lbs; which doesn't seem to slow her down much at all. In her case it's a genetic gift combined with lots of hard work.

[Ken Robb]

I have a friend who went pantless. He was lighter too.

Now you've got me thinking about how much my shorts weigh--- :rolleyes:

[RPS]

Now you've got me thinking about how much my shorts weigh--- :rolleyes:With or without a steak in them?

[RPS]

Can you feel the difference after emptying a water bottle?Without getting too technical, what I'm trying to say is that a bike that is 25 percent lighter (15 versus 20 pounds) feels much lighter under a rider because it accelerates -- relative to the rider -- like it is 25 percent lighter. Think in terms of conservation of momentum with the rider weighing about 10 times as much as the bike.

However, from a performance standpoint, that 5 pound savings in bike weight can only improve performance by about 2 or 3 percent at most because of the weight of the rider.

There is a definite disconnect between what a rider feels as fast due to lightness and what is actually faster if measured.

[Ti Designs]

This is a discussion/argument that needs to take place on the bike...

[bnewt07]

I started this thread with a question, 'Is it fact or fiction that Serotta's are 'heavy?' (not a question nasking if I could/should buy the lightest bike in the world).

I think I've learned that some of that reputation may be deserved because the emphasis of the company (and its customers) has not been to chase the last gram.

I'm quite happy with that, I fully understand the reasons and the balance of weight loss vs other frame characteristics (and I still want to buy one by the way).

Thanks to Serotta for posting the HSG weight. Countering the 'myth' the best way!

[Ti Designs]

I started this thread with a question, 'Is it fact or fiction that Serotta's are 'heavy?'

When you've been around the block a few more times you'll come to understand that there are a few questions asked where the person asking really doesn't get what they're asking.

Example: What was the average speed of the race? A cat 4 or 5 racer who did a bit of post race math may have that answer. A cat 2 who just got hurt by the pros just gives this wild look and says "who cares?". It's really not about average speed. Anyone in that race could hang on in the shelter of the pack at 27MPH. It's the times it gets really hard that makes the race, average speed doesn't tell you that.

That's why I said this discussion should take place on the bike. You start out on a large group ride, people start going off the back. After a hill or two you have a small fraction of the starting riders. Then you ask your question about Serottas being heavy. The riders around you will give you that same answer - who cares?

[shinomaster]

I have a friend who went pantless. He was lighter too.


Did James just make a funny? :banana:

[bnewt07]

{Deleted}

How cross can you be on this forum if a post has really irritated you? Don't want to be kicked off.
Grrrr.

[Climb01742]

i call everyone out on all of this. weight does make a difference and even the best steel builders out there whom you would all assume don't give a flying fruck about weight secretly obsess about it.

my dogma is an 18.5 pound tank and if i'm lugging that thing up hills i definatly feel it. i also notice the weight when i'm having a crappy day or haven't ridden much. it's just a bike that wants to be pushed hard and ridden fast and the whole package (frame, wheels, geometry, bars position etc.) demands a certain lifestyle i'm not always up to.

that being said; i test rode a 15 pound lemond in the vermont gaps awhile back; and while it lacked top tube rigidity and was a bit softer than my dogma and definatly not my "style" bike for the short hammer sessions i find the time to do; it was a pleasant bike that seemed far more suited to long climbs...alot of that was due to the weight.

so i think to a certain extent you guys have got it backwards.....a good race bike, at least for most races that don't involve hor categorie climbs and 300km stages....a heavy stiff bike with aero wheels is the best way to go.

with the exception of the new pinarello prince i have never in my life ridden a sub 1200gram frame that exhibited a solid enough feel along the top tube for it to be a choice as a race bike were i buying it myself.


jerk

ah, the jerk we know and love. an honest, real world answer. and it's interesting that no one is jumping in to refute it, especially given the overwhelming drift of this thread.

two quick points:

a fact is worth a thousand posts. serotta james posting that HSG build and weight is exactly the kind of info/fact that i think serotta should put out there more. serottas_can_be built up light. end of discussion with a nice, simple fact.

i am currently riding the hell out of my c50 with aeolus wheels. i've never weighed it. probably 17ish lbs. it is all day sweet. it is sweet pounding intervals over crap roads. it is sweet in all conditions i ride daily. the scott cr1 i built up two years ago was 14 and change. like the jerk, i rode it up very steep stuff in vermont and it zoomed. weight "matters" but only in context and as part of the whole equation. i'd never ride that scott daily but i'd also never ride my c50 as is up MW.

[Too Tall]

i beleive the word is 'dialed'.

i'm gonna add a ps. i've seen a lot of guys own serotta ti bikes and ride them a ton... i'd see them out training as much as i do... and then get turned off of them at the coffee shop when the other dudes roll in with the newest lightest and stiffest race bike.. so they sell the serotta and get the new rig and have an 'oh boy this is stiffer and lighter and what was i thinking' moment. and thee about 2 months later you don't see those guys riding anymore.... they fall out of love with putting in the miles... because between you and me, they're on bikes now that are too much work for them and they enjoy the riding less and don't know why.

atmo.
Touche' James ;)
I've seen pros racing Serottas at Colorado Spring and Trexlertown track and at dang near every race I've ever attended. That's my story. Swoops (above) observation is carried out in real life everywhere I look. I know buckets of top notch racers who train on Serottas and race team bikes...go figure? ;)

[Too Tall]

You know what? After reading this thread I'm really looking forward to getting up in the morning and hammering seven shades of ***** out of my MX Leader.

Isn't that what it's all about?

POST OF THE MOMENT :cool:

[RABikes2]

That's really my point - weight is just one factor. Don't believe the hype, atmo.
So true.

I really get amazed with this weight stuff, hear it at the shop all the time. I think I weighed my Legend Ti totally naked once, but can't remember what the weight was since it didn't mean a thing to me; I don't ride it that way. I did weigh it a few years ago before a shorter brevet (400k), loaded with lights, etc., and it came in at 29 pounds.

However, do I ride the bike naked? No. I add the BiSaddle saddle, which weighs a tad more, a mtn. bike derailleur on the rear (which definitely weighs more), and Mavic Open Pro (32 spoke) wheels. Then add two water bottle cages and the bike bag. I carry two tubes, two cartridges, 3 tire tools, a multi tool, and a bunch of other crap in the bag. So, with empty water bottles, my Legend can weigh in 21+ pounds. Do I care; no. Why...because my Legend rides stable and has excellent control.

I can get a lighter bike anytime (crap, change half the equipment out on my Legend and it'll be lighter by pounds), but...I haven't rode a bike yet (not that I've rode a big variety in 24 years) that has the feel of the Serotta between my legs. She corners, climbs, descends, and rides with performance, stability, and distinction. Period.

A bikes' weight can be 16 pounds...but, if you put GU, banana, and granola bars in the back pocket of the rider who can stand to lose an extra 5-10 pounds, well, duh, what does it matter? Go with a bike that feels best, not necessarily the 1 to 3 pound weight difference stated by a company.

Serotta's might be "heavier" by some standards, but if you want to ride a 16 pound bike (and feel the difference between 1-3 pounds), then peel down to ride bare butt, ride your bike equipment naked, and no water bottles to feel the weight at 16 pounds (plus you're body weight, of course).

Let's play nice so Mr. Pete doesn't have to play school guard. ;)
RA

[flydhest]

ah, the jerk we know and love. an honest, real world answer. and it's interesting that no one is jumping in to refute it, especially given the overwhelming drift of this thread.



I don't see what there is to refute. He just posted his opinion about what he says he can feel going up and down hills. I don't see why that is "real world" when comments along the lines of "1 pound in a 200 pound total package is insignificant" are not real world.

[92degrees]

It's when you compare 18.5 pound tanks to 15.5 pound mountain goats that the import of 2% total weight differences becomes apparent to even the most indifferent of cycling studs, at least on rare occasions.

Since when is the difference between 18.5lbs and 15.5lbs 2%?! Just bustin' on you. Ducking now.

[benb]

I think you're just feeling the flexiness of the lighter bike and convincing yourself it's making you climb faster cause you're flexing the bike more. I've felt that.. it's funny the flexy bike makes you feel faster uphill but slower in a sprint.

Just like it's very easy to feel faster grinding while out of the saddle when in reality if you sit down and drop 2 gears you're most likely faster.

I did the math for my most recent time up Mt. Washington on Analytic cycling.. it approximates I averaged 265 watts. I weighed 170lbs and rode an 18lb bike. (Ignoring the weight of my single water bottle actually)

For an 18lb bike vs. a 15lb bike.. it's a 1:13 or ~170 meter difference... question is what difference could different mental decisions about where to go hard vs. where to take it easy, etc.. be worth... I didn't ride a perfect climb.. I know I had probably 3-4 minutes I could have taken off with more intelligent riding.

What does that equate to on a more pedestrian hill.. there is your answer right there.

I don't think the 1 minute would have been worth the thousands it would have cost me to drop 3lbs off the bike.. maybe worth it to drop 3lbs off me though..

[RABikes2]

maybe worth it to drop 3lbs off me though..
Quote of the moment. ;)

[barry1021]

here's the poop... i think there were a lot of guys rolling around on nicely made ti serottas that were (frankly) a little heavier and a little softer riding and typically were under guys that would benefit from that kind of bike. i look at pics posted here and most folks are a good 20 lbs north of what a strong real bike racer weighs and maybe a few years north too...

i think serotta kind of woke-up from the post Atlanta slumber with the Ottrott model and postal masters team. and then again really woke-up with the HSG and cleaning-up the line this year... and the Mievici custom carbon too. I dont' know anyone really racing a Meivici (I'm willing to if they give me one at cost by the way. no, please... james call me). really racing means 40 or more races a year and with guys that have eating disorders and can suffer till their eyes bleed.

an actual race bike and a race-like bike are two different things and there are only but a few guys here that would find that a race bike suits their needs. i don't think many among us can even assume the position on the bike.

frankly, i chuckle at a lot of our product reveiws because i doubt many of us are capable of pushing gear into its own. you can't do a wheel reveiw at 18 miles an hour.

Serotta isn't delusional and makes a bike for the rider and most of the time it is a little heavier and a little softer... and tends towards the sublime.

and i think the world is littered with guys that bought love#3's and big leg emmas that find those bike are a little too stiff or a little too nervous for how they actually use them... and maybe secretly love the bikes but would be better off with something softer.

so, if you are going to do 50 races a year and your body fat is single digit.. you need to communicate that to them to get the bike that's right for you (i think that means 16 lbs or under and stiff as hell). i gotta beleive that's about 5% or less of the market for Serotta. So, they are building the right bike for the reality of their customer... yeah.. it can be heavier. From my perspective. i think Serotta tries to filter out the ego and the insecurities and maybe some of the delusions of the well intentioned customer and gives them the bike they think will function for them in the real world.

i don't think the majority of folks would feel good set-up in the position on a real race bike. i don't think most folks can tell the weight of the bike or how it might affect the ride except in the most novel and trivial of ways.

atmo.
+1000

[RABikes2]

here's the poop... i think there were a lot of guys rolling around on nicely made ti serottas that were (frankly) a little heavier and a little softer riding and typically were under guys that would benefit from that kind of bike. i look at pics posted here and most folks are a good 20 lbs north of what a strong real bike racer weighs and maybe a few years north too...

i think serotta kind of woke-up from the post Atlanta slumber with the Ottrott model and postal masters team. and then again really woke-up with the HSG and cleaning-up the line this year... and the Mievici custom carbon too. I dont' know anyone really racing a Meivici (I'm willing to if they give me one at cost by the way. no, please... james call me). really racing means 40 or more races a year and with guys that have eating disorders and can suffer till their eyes bleed.

an actual race bike and a race-like bike are two different things and there are only but a few guys here that would find that a race bike suits their needs. i don't think many among us can even assume the position on the bike.

frankly, i chuckle at a lot of our product reveiws because i doubt many of us are capable of pushing gear into its own. you can't do a wheel reveiw at 18 miles an hour.

Serotta isn't delusional and makes a bike for the rider and most of the time it is a little heavier and a little softer... and tends towards the sublime.

and i think the world is littered with guys that bought love#3's and big leg emmas that find those bike are a little too stiff or a little too nervous for how they actually use them... and maybe secretly love the bikes but would be better off with something softer.

so, if you are going to do 50 races a year and your body fat is single digit.. you need to communicate that to them to get the bike that's right for you (i think that means 16 lbs or under and stiff as hell). i gotta beleive that's about 5% or less of the market for Serotta. So, they are building the right bike for the reality of their customer... yeah.. it can be heavier. From my perspective. i think Serotta tries to filter out the ego and the insecurities and maybe some of the delusions of the well intentioned customer and gives them the bike they think will function for them in the real world.

i don't think the majority of folks would feel good set-up in the position on a real race bike. i don't think most folks can tell the weight of the bike or how it might affect the ride except in the most novel and trivial of ways.

atmo.
Add another +1000 to barry1021's +1000. Good post swoop, ol' boy. :D

[benb]

Oh did the math for the water bottle I carried... .7kg.

The difference between a 18lb and 15lb bike is 1.3kg.

Plenty of people in top notch go up the Rock without a waterbottle guess I should have done so. Skipping the water bottle is quite cost effective.

[Ken Robb]

I've seen a forumite dump his bottle before climbing Torrey Pines grade. He'd have beat me handily with three full bottles and a Camelback. :)

[zap]

Can't deny physics. Weight matters. To what degree and how important is it, well, that's up to you and what your after.

Every successful racer I know cares about weight. Not at the expense of other cycling parameters such as fit, aero, frame feel, etc., but part of the whole package.

If you want to toddle along at 15mph, fine, weight may not be that important. If your racing your *** off and your body is screaming in pain at 30+mph, your looking for every bit of help.

Humans are not perfect analytical machines producing consistent results. So the Hawthorne Effect and such might be at play.

Note that the person who's one tire width behind is the first loser.

[sspielman]

I've seen a forumite dump his bottle before climbing Torrey Pines grade. He'd have beat me handily with three full bottles and a Camelback. :)
I assume that since you are posting today that your house was not affected by the landslide?... Where was that?

[Ken Robb]

I assume that since you are posting today that your house was not affected by the landslide?... Where was that?
see my post from yesterday. :) no problem except for diverted traffic.

[swoop]

also.. notice the porta potty line before every race. you do that right you can drop two pounds like that. my best performance gains happen there.

[SPOKE]

I started this thread with a question, 'Is it fact or fiction that Serotta's are 'heavy?' (not a question nasking if I could/should buy the lightest bike in the world).

I think I've learned that some of that reputation may be deserved because the emphasis of the company (and its customers) has not been to chase the last gram.

I'm quite happy with that, I fully understand the reasons and the balance of weight loss vs other frame characteristics (and I still want to buy one by the way).

Thanks to Serotta for posting the HSG weight. Countering the 'myth' the best way!

if you are indeed going to have a custom frame built the reality is that the weight of the frame that you take delivery of will be the "ONLY" frame that you'll get to weigh that matters. unless you commission a frame from each of the builders you're considering you will not ever know if you are missing anything at all :crap:

[Ti Designs]

also.. notice the porta potty line before every race. you do that right you can drop two pounds like that. my best performance gains happen there.

By next year there will be a carbon fiber porta potty showing at Interbike 'cause when it comes to porta potties, wait really does matter!

[Samster]

:D also.. notice the porta potty line before every race. you do that right you can drop two pounds like that. my best performance gains happen there. :beer:

[benb]

It is somewhat all pointless and/or ego though.

If I had a 13lb bike for Mt. Washington, lost 5lbs, and skipped the water bottle it would not have put me in contention for the win.

In a Cat 3/4/5 race with their pathetic climbs I'm not convinced the bike weight has any effect.. if it's only 1 minute up a 11km 13% grade then it's a couple of seconds in those small climbs.. easily made up elsewhere and not significant.

If you're Contador and Rasmussen racing up the Tours climbs where 1 minute is huge? Yah it matters.

Club ride? Doesn't matter in the least.. especially since those are so erratic with the pace.

[barry1021]

By next year there will be a carbon fiber porta potty showing at Interbike 'cause when it comes to porta potties, wait really does matter!

right there!!

b21

[Climb01742]

maybe worth it to drop 3lbs off me though..

just as a point of reference, my normal winter weight is 160-163, in-season weight is 155. when i did MW i was 139, at 5'11". i'd gotten every ounce off me i could.

[IFRider]

I am always struck when I read posts on the boards where people are focused on the weight of XYZ. I first started riding in 1979 and was working in a pro shop as a wrench in 1981. This was the tail end of the drill everything out to lighten time and we regularly saw bikes come in with all sorts of things broken because someone read an article about drilling out components and they took a hand drill to a chainring or brake lever. At that time the shop I worked in hired this old italian guy that sold his shop to retire and had spent years nurturing the sport on Long Island named Vito. Vito once told me, (I paraphrase) you can save more weight by taking dump before leaving for a ride than drilling out components. Kind of put things in perspective. Back then I was 130 pounds max, now 175 I have long stopped obsessing over weight.

I do find it an interesting excercise in engineering though for the truly competitive class, of which very few of us are there. Cool stuff to look at but quiet frankly I spend more time looking at lugged steel bikes when I have time to kill online.

Warren

[Ahneida Ride]

However, do I ride the bike naked? No. I add the BiSaddle saddle, which weighs a tad more, a mtn. bike derailleur on the rear (which definitely weighs more), and Mavic Open Pro (32 spoke) wheels. Then add two water bottle cages and the bike bag. I carry two tubes, two cartridges, 3 tire tools, a multi tool, and a bunch of other crap in the bag. So, with empty water bottles, my Legend can weigh in 21+ pounds. Do I care; no. Why...because my Legend rides stable and has excellent control.

RA

My thoughs exactly. My Legend was built to perform in a certain manner.
It weights what it does. Most of my Legend's weight is in components, and
already have great components, (Record, TA, Thompson, Mavic, White ....)

If you are purchasing a Custom frame and you want the lightest frame
possible, just give Kelly a call. Numerous posts here prove that Serotta is quite capable of satisfying a weight winnie.

[1centaur]

Since when is the difference between 18.5lbs and 15.5lbs 2%?! Just bustin' on you. Ducking now.

Dude, go back and read the whole thread! Okay, that's probably unfair punishment :) The context is the 1% rule used by others counting total weight of cyclist and bike plus extras. 3 pounds is 2% of 150 pounds, which implies a fairly light cyclist, or 1.51% of a 198lb plus total package, and I was rounding to 2%.

I for one think a pound on the bike can be felt sometimes (and 3 pounds all the time) and a pound on the person cannot be felt because it's part of the engine driving the object and your mind is better at picking out the effect of the object than the effect of the combined engine and object. When I weighed about nine of my bikes on the same scale a few months back the ordinal ranking across a 2.5 pound spectrum was largely about as I would have expected from riding them repeatedly in many terrains and in varying states of exhaustion. I count weight as one of the elements of ride quality along with stiffness and compliance and feedback and select for the day's route accordingly. All this 10 seconds in a race or 150 yards in a distance stuff is absolutely without meaning to me. It's all about perceived effort and psychology on certain hills and at later stages of a long ride,and for all I know the OP was in the same frame of mind.

[Dekonick]

also.. notice the porta potty line before every race. you do that right you can drop two pounds like that. my best performance gains happen there.

That's just a bunch of CRAP! :beer: :butt:

[pdxmech13]

also.. notice the porta potty line before every race. you do that right you can drop two pounds like that. my best performance gains happen there.

I thought that was what the coach was talking about all this time :D

[swoop]

my question is, why is this an emotional issues for some? ride what you like, don't worry about anyone else. its up to you what kind of feelings make a bike fast for you.. its so subjective when you add the person to the frame... and that's the thing that's great about bikin' ...its that its so much about your reality.

i just think very few of us end up in situations where you really push the bike to its limits anyway.... so.. just ride what feels good and motivates you.
but never make it about one point of info ... what makes bike magical and full of unicorns and rainbows is the paradox of somethig so simple being so complex.

it isn't a marriage... look at it as a short term relationship that you come away with something for the next one. its more like cooking in the kitchen than it is like finding a guru. that's what classified are for....

[davids]

my question is, why is this an emotional issues for some?
It's the old conflict between objectivity and subjectivity. A lot of people think if you can't measure it, it isn't real.

I used to be one of those myself, until I heard the difference between a Technics direct drive turntable and an AR belt-driven turntable...

[barry1021]

It's the old conflict between objectivity and subjectivity. A lot of people think if you can't measure it, it isn't real.

I used to be one of those myself, until I heard the difference between a Technics direct drive turntable and an AR belt-driven turntable...
that was a classic, even in 1971. Totally manual, it was so sweet.

b21

[e-RICHIE]

A lot of people think if you can't measure it, it isn't real.


*** did you just say that!????????
it should be a wet and sticky atmo.
mattafact here -

A lot of people think if you can't measure it, it isn't real.

[davids]

that was a classic, even in 1971. Totally manual, it was so sweet.

b21
All I can say is, the VPI Jr. is even better. I lived with a ("new") AR for a long time, and then bought the VPI on reputation. I could tell the difference from the next room. Mmmm, analog...

http://www.musicfountain.net/images/turntable/AR-EB101.7.jpg http://home.c2i.net/jantoresvart/turntables/hw-19jr-oak.gif

[soulspinner]

It's the old conflict between objectivity and subjectivity. A lot of people think if you can't measure it, it isn't real.

I used to be one of those myself, until I heard the difference between a Technics direct drive turntable and an AR belt-driven turntable...

Yes!!! I miss the old Pickering cartridge in my Onkyo tt with My Old School screaming from the speakers! Liked it better than my Shure...

[nick0137]

A lot of people think if you can't measure it, it isn't real.


Er. Let's talk about planing shall we? ;)

[e-RICHIE]

Er. Let's talk about planing shall we? ;)
for the record - those are/were davids' word i pasted.
lets' get busy atmo.

[Grant McLean]

I heard the difference between a Technics direct drive turntable and an AR belt-driven turntable...

Then obviously you know that 200 grams is better than 180 grams, is better than 140 grams.

Heavier is better :)

g

[rwsaunders]

I for one think a pound on the bike can be felt sometimes (and 3 pounds all the time) and a pound on the person cannot be felt because it's part of the engine driving the object and your mind is better at picking out the effect of the object than the effect of the combined engine and object..

Hmmmmm, Al has a question regarding this theory.... :cool:

[Dave B]

my question is, why is this an emotional issues for some? .


I would think you of all people know the answer to that.

We are raised in whatever generation to strive to be and for the best. American culture is consumption and gluttany (sp) not everyone of course, but i woud l say the vast majority.

Manufactures put extreme prices on light weight things as it might cost more to make, but they know people will buy them.

If we could make riding heavy bikes the "cool" thing or charge loads more for a steel, hell even a lead bike then the market might change. not for awhile, but it would be a cool experiment.

If the vast majority of people knew what a Sachs, Vanilla, Pacenti et all were then you would have a disgusting level of consumption. These artists could sell their bikes for triple and people would buy them.

If Lance won on a steel lugged friction shifter bike with no carbon doo dads people would want that.

Light weight is vogue and people will pay through the nose to carve off grams. That is why we have the weight weenies site.

Not the flying fatties on friction site.

Humbly....according to my opinion!

I couldn't tell if a heavier bike from a lighter bike except for the metal or carbon screaming at me to lose weight. Do I flex stuff. Heck yeah I do.

But if I was a rich guy i could see myself trying to get a 12 pound bike so that 11 times a year i could ride my $20K bike with my douche bag friends.


Or I could be wrong and light is the new heavy. :D

[Pete Serotta]

This thread was closed because of the ## of posts and the fear of degradation of forum performance. Lets try to leave open and see if there is a degradation of performance before folks get tired of posting to it.


In no way was it closed for any post or "attack" it was very gracious session. ;) ;) even considering the characters we are.... :D

Have a good weekend and again I apologize. PETE

[davids]

Then obviously you know that 200 grams is better than 180 grams, is better than 140 grams.

Heavier is better :)

g
Grados rule OK.

[RPS]

It's the old conflict between objectivity and subjectivity. A lot of people think if you can't measure it, it isn't real.
Maybe some people just think that if you can't measure it, it's because we don't know how, not that it's not worth measuring.

Ignorance can be bliss. Can also be fatal.

[Grant McLean]

Maybe some people just think that if you can't measure it, it's because we don't know how, not that it's not worth measuring.


Sure, but there is a bias for things that can be measured easily.

I've said it often, and I'll say it again, people focus on weight because it's
so easy to measure and compare, and seems so obvious that lighter is better.
If you know a metric for 'great riding', they'll start to print that in the catalogs
too.

-g

[RPS]

Grant, I agree that weight is very easy to measure, but from my perspective the underlying problem is that the benefit of light-weight equipment has been grossly exaggerated by marketing hype.

Years back when I was doing a lot of running I don’t remember too many runners saying stuff like “I could have saved 10 seconds in my marathon if only my shoes were an ounce lighter”. I’m sure there was an obsession there too; just not as pronounced.

As to quantifying ride quality, we could attach vibration sensors (accelerometers) on different bikes and see what happens. However, even if we did it some guy would emphatically state that he likes a bike that rides harsh so he can feel every bump on the road; making him feel like a real man. Kind of like a 4-hour 200-pound marathoner training in racing flats. :rolleyes:

[pdxmech13]

dosn't mean it ain't worth ridin

[jeo99]

WHO cares!
:beer:

[Tobias]

The comparison is between athletic ladies with shapely curves
versus anorexic runway models whose photos fill magazines.
Light is good when not overdone to her detriment just to have
a dysfunctional object of obsession for many to gawk at.

Pretty much the same for bikes IMO.

[Fixed]

yes they are heavy and slow you really need to get rid of them.. so i'll do this for you send me all the 56-58 's and i'll take them off your hands.
so you don't be burdened with such a heavy bike
thanks cheers imho :beer: