View Full Version : I'm confused
Jack Brunk
10-01-2007, 11:50 PM
I don't understand the headtube spacer thing. I feel weird when I have 25mm under my stem. I know I'll have some spacers because I typically ride a frame on the smaller side(I like long stems) but some of the bike's look like there's 40mm or more. What's the acceptable amount and should we care?
oracle
10-02-2007, 12:03 AM
i care
Jack Brunk
10-02-2007, 12:15 AM
Man, I'm glad somebody cares.. Oracle You rock!
Simon Q
10-02-2007, 12:43 AM
I hear you Jack.
It prob comes down to aesthetics but I really like the look of no/minimal spacers (1 cm or less) and less post vs heaps of spacers and more post. Not that either is good or bad - unless someone has an opposite view - that is just me but I know others have a staunch opposite view.
Helps if you have a decent bar drop and sloping TT but even with a level TT and small drop a tidy front ends look cool IMHO. For example, I like Darren CT's work on that front. No spacers, small drop, not much post and just super neat.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=32521
slowgoing
10-02-2007, 01:06 AM
You should feel fortunate that you don't need a lot of spacers.
Steve Hampsten
10-02-2007, 01:17 AM
visually, i think that a stack height of one half of the steerer diameter looks good - 15mm or less.
but that's just me.
saddle to bar drop matters, too - usually expressed as 5-10% of saddle height
oh to be young, skinny, and limber again...
shinomaster
10-02-2007, 01:31 AM
Why do so many cross bikes have so many spacers? High BB? It looks ridiculous.
Sandy
10-02-2007, 02:11 AM
Generalization- The younger you are, the more you care.
The older you are, the less you care.
Aesthetically, I prefer less spacers. My body prefers more. My body wins.
Body Beautiful
There is a max amount allowable under the stem as a function of safety.
oldguy00
10-02-2007, 03:35 AM
Jack,
Are you tired of that Cervelo yet??? :)
soulspinner
10-02-2007, 04:48 AM
visually, i think that a stack height of one half of the steerer diameter looks good - 15mm or less.
but that's just me.
saddle to bar drop matters, too - usually expressed as 5-10% of saddle height
oh to be young, skinny, and limber again...
+1... At 51 I run 5-6 cm drop on my bikes. 20 years ago it was 10 cm. I think 15mm is a perfect amount, pleasing to the eye and leaves flexibility for changes should you need another stem without the same rise and stack.
Ti Designs
10-02-2007, 05:24 AM
It prob comes down to aesthetics but I really like the look of no/minimal spacers...
You're confusing fit and color.
To understand this issue the first thing you need to do is go out and look at lots of people on their bikes. If you only look at yourself on the bike you'll never understand any fit issues other than your own (says the guy with the downward sloped top tube, 1cm of spacer and a -17 degree stem). It all starts with the body, more specificly the ratio of arm/leg length to torso length. There's this bike measurment known as stand-over height, the guys with shorter legs know this measurment all too well, those with long legs may have heard of it. here's the real problem: Say you have short legs and arms, and most of your height is in your torso, your hips are located by saddle position but your torso length brings you both up and forward, and those short arms don't get you back down that far. So top tube should be longer and the bars need to be higher - without increasing the stand-over. Something has to give, head tube extensions are one solution, spacers, stem angle can also put the bars where they need to be.
Or you can just go by what looks good.
I'm older, I am not limber, my bike is pretty long and low now and I have this feeling like I'm sitting straight up on the thing. Basically, if my forearms aren't parallel to the ground I feel tall. Maybe it wouldn't feel that way at the beginning of the season? Maybe I get stronger so I can sit that way for a long time. Nah, run out and buy crap. It's the only way....
Can one experiment by swapping one spacer from below the stem to above it and see if that makes things work better or is it a better idea to go find a -17 stem because that'll lower the bars by a good centimeter out there at the end? While I'm at it, should I add another centimeter to the stem or is changing two things at once dumb? Changing things one at a time can get pretty expensive.
Fixed
10-02-2007, 05:41 AM
2 bikes one looks pro the other you ride
cheers imho
merckx
10-02-2007, 06:46 AM
I currently run no spacers beneath my Cinelli XA. Is that okay?
Fixed
10-02-2007, 06:54 AM
it 's all about looks or fit or both ..jack all your bike look pro
but i'd ride that old nago or merckx you have .
cheers imho
e-RICHIE
10-02-2007, 07:08 AM
What's the acceptable amount and should we care?
atmo (http://serotta.com/forum/showpost.php?p=185644&postcount=14).
stevep
10-02-2007, 07:15 AM
notable on this topic.
look at the photos of the world championship rr.
you can clearly see bettinis and many others bikes in head shots.
these photos clearly show quite modest drops from bars to saddles.
bettinis is probably 5-6 cm at most...and he has a riser stem.
somehow you have to get the bars where they need to be.
if its spacers or a rise stem...its all ok.
most of these guys are small.
its only the geeks ( my definition- anyone taller than i am ) show more and even they are not dramatic.
rwsaunders
10-02-2007, 07:19 AM
2 bikes one looks pro the other you ride
cheers imho
+1. Fixed is the new Ben Franklin (i.e. Poor Richard's Almanac).
victoryfactory
10-02-2007, 07:19 AM
I don't understand the headtube spacer thing. I feel weird when I have 25mm under my stem. I know I'll have some spacers because I typically ride a frame on the smaller side(I like long stems) but some of the bike's look like there's 40mm or more. What's the acceptable amount and should we care?
Jack;
Since the industry has adopted the threadless technology, many old school
riders have the same issue, coming to terms with the spacers.
The one great thing about quill stems is that you could always adjust them
up or down any time.
Obviously the threadless forces us to make a decision before hand.
So we can tell our builder to make our frame with an extended head tube,
or if we aren't in a position to order custom we can slam in one of those
headtube extenders, or we can use the dreaded spacers.
After the fact adjustments can be achieved by flipping or replacing the stem
It's the price we pay for this great new technology.
As far as the look, I'm used to it, I have ridden bikes with as much as 2"
under the stem with no problems, I've never seen a steerer break from
spacer problems, and since I'm no Tom Boonen, I don't need the ultimate
stiffness in my steerer.
Get used to the spacers, embrace them,
order them in different colors, by the dozen, Drink the cool-aid, Jack
Then maybe you will be ready to go when someone decides that we all need
1-1/2" steerer tubes.
But seriously, a few spacers aren't that bad looking to me. just make sure
they are the same color as the stem, please.
And really, I never found quill stems that were extended all the way up
to their limit out of the headset very attractive either.
VF, sultan of sarcasm
don'TreadOnMe
10-02-2007, 07:27 AM
I can't get the mental picture of Floyd's '06 TdF bike out of my head right now.
Why do so many cross bikes have so many spacers? High BB? It looks ridiculous.
I agree. It's not a mountain bike.
Len J
10-02-2007, 07:32 AM
if you are getting a custom frame, there is no need for anything more than 1 to 2 cm of spacers at most. Everything else can be cured by the builder.
A combination of a longer HT , including a slight increase in HT extension, a slightly sloping TT (very hard to detect at 2 to 3 degrees), slightly longer ST, and an 84 degree stem, can create a very pleasing look with very little bar drop. If you like a slopeing TT's, it's even easier.
Yes, it's aestetics. But I'm always amazed when I see a custom bike with 3+cm of spacers on anything where the bars are level or slightly below the seat....to me it shows that either the designer or the customer didn't take the time to translate the fit into better balanced aestetics. The devil is in the details and this shows me that there wasn't enough attention to the details.
Obviously, YMMV, IMO etc, etc, this opinion is worth exactly what you pay for it.
Len
weisan
10-02-2007, 07:36 AM
notable on this topic.
look at the photos of the world championship rr.
you can clearly see bettinis and many others bikes in head shots.
these photos clearly show quite modest drops from bars to saddles.
bettinis is probably 5-6 cm at most...and he has a riser stem.
somehow you have to get the bars where they need to be.
if its spacers or a rise stem...its all ok.
most of these guys are small.
its only the geeks ( my definition- anyone taller than i am ) show more and even they are not dramatic.
also earlier in the race, on the first breakaway with a Croatian rider, a Slovak rider caught up, he has a nice-looking riser stem that shoots up the sky :D
Whatever works man...whatever works.
Spicoli
10-02-2007, 08:01 AM
Same fits but different materials made for different sizings on the headtubes of each bike. "0" HT extention above TT and this is what I got?
spacers;
C50=0-5mm.(FAT CARBON)
Dream=10-15mm.(pretty fat alloy)
CDA=15-20mm.(skinny steel)
All bikes have the same geometry, all the same contact points. I dont think anyone of them looks better than the other?
The only time a spacer issue has come up for me, has unfortunatly been with HSG Serotta's. I would grab a stock 54cm carbon frame but the HT is too short for me. I would need atleast 4cm. minimum of spacer to get to my positon. For me thats too much and the next size I could go with would be a 56 but that has a TT thats 2cm longer than anything I've ridden. I already have a boat load of drop too so going lower would not work out.
93legendti
10-02-2007, 08:30 AM
atmo (http://serotta.com/forum/showpost.php?p=185644&postcount=14).
I like this one too:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=185833&postcount=41
Fixed
10-02-2007, 08:32 AM
bro does that mean your bike has to be the right size ?
cheers imho
wasfast
10-02-2007, 08:58 AM
The switch to threadless seems to have shifted the allowable fashion for saddle to bar drop. Back in the day, on a "properly" sized frame (fistfull or a bit more of seatpost showing, level top tubes), you could have 2" of quill stem out of the fork and it was fine. Now, 2" (50mm for the rest of you) is taboo.
I've seen several of the pro sprinters bikes like Boonen's with very large saddle to bar drops. Not feasible for most riders anyway.
e-RICHIE
10-02-2007, 08:59 AM
I've seen several of the pro sprinters bikes like Boonen's with very large saddle to bar drops. Not feasible for most riders anyway.
most riders don't race 80-110 days a year atmo.
I think everyone is just different.
I can *easily* kiss my knees.. I'm very flexible, and I have long arms.
Yet I'm only running a 5cm drop. I can probably run more but I'm not sure it's any benefit. As it is I can tuck down to the point where my knees just about hit my chest and ride comfortably. What would it really accomplish to lower the bars and lose the ability to be comfy when sitting up?
My bike is custom, even with a longer then normal headtube I've still got 2-3cm of spacers I think. (I don't agonize over these things, I haven't measured) I could run less spacers if I ran a stem with a rise.. do I have any motivation to mess with the bike? No way.
I think Serotta may have built my bike on purpose that way when my fitter sent them the measurements along with "excellent flexibility"... they saw the sheet, saw I wanted 5cm drop, and then decided they better play it safe in case I later on wanted to drop the bars down to 10cm drop cause I felt like entering a TT or something. If I don't stick clip on aero bars on though I can't see any reason why it would be beneficial to drop the bars further though.
Avispa
10-02-2007, 09:23 AM
Hey Jack,
I care so much about this that I got into a lot of heat not long ago when I spoke about the geometry of a bike. :no: :cool:
But hey, they knew so much what they were talking about...
Now, this man, he is really on target ;) :
I think everyone is just different. I can *easily* kiss my knees.. I'm very flexible, and I have long arms.
Yet I'm only running a 5cm drop. I can probably run more but I'm not sure it's any benefit. As it is I can tuck down to the point where my knees just about hit my chest and ride comfortably. What would it really accomplish to lower the bars and lose the ability to be comfy when sitting up?
Me, I've started to use some spacers (3-5mm that is), because I hate it when I change stem brands and one has a smaller stack height than the other and I end up with an steerer that is too short... I think a bike looks better without any spacers, bro.
..A..
sspielman
10-02-2007, 09:38 AM
bro does that mean your bike has to be the right size ?
cheers imho
That's where alot of people mess up...and all of this trouble starts....
Grant McLean
10-02-2007, 09:48 AM
Back in the day, on a "properly" sized frame (fistfull or a bit more of seatpost showing, level top tubes), you could have 2" of quill stem out of the fork and it was fine. Now, 2" (50mm for the rest of you) is taboo.
It's not the 50mm of spacers that's the issue, it's the total combination of stack.
Many ahead stems are now 80 degrees, not 73.
Many setups invert the stem to 110 degrees
Many headtubes are now longer, given oversize tubes.
Many integrated headsets have coneshaped spacers
Many frames have extended headtubes.
Proportionally, frames today are getting shorter top tubes, and fewer and fewer
people ride a stem longer than a 10cm. (that's why our shop has buckets full
of 11 and 12 stems taken off bikes, and all we seem to sell is 8, 9, and 10's.)
A lot of folks like a lot of seatpost showing, afraid that they don't have enough
stand over clearance. A lot of folks are sitting shorter and higher on their
bikes than riders did "back in the day" despite the trend of pro's to have massive
drop to the bars. Many people never use the drops...
...not that there's anything wrong with that....
-g
ecl2k
10-02-2007, 09:51 AM
Why do so many cross bikes have so many spacers? High BB? It looks ridiculous.
Helps with front cable routing into the cable hanger but if that's an issue it's probably better to use one of those long drop hangers:
http://www.toeclip.com/images/RD1911.JPG
Fixed
10-02-2007, 10:02 AM
drop to the bars. Many people never use the drops... grant said
sell em flat bars
bro what get me is the cats on their tip toes when they ride ..then saying they can't get any power ..something's wrong with the bike .....something's wrong with the rider .. lower is better your center is balance ... ... don't need to have the leg locked out and be on the tiptoes your bike will be on it's tiptoes too
cheers Imho
93legendti
10-02-2007, 10:07 AM
drop to the bars. Many people never use the drops... grant said
sell em flat bars
bro what get me is the cats on their tip toes when they ride ..then saying they can't get any power ..something's wrong with the bike .....something's wrong with the rider .. lower is better your center is balance ... ... don't need to have the leg locked out and be on the tiptoes your bike will be on it's tiptoes too
cheers Imho
What about Jacques Anquetil?
Grant McLean
10-02-2007, 10:16 AM
What about Jacques Anquetil?
Yes, he had the 'toes down' style, but his seat wasn't too high like what fixed was
sayin' about people he's seen.
-g
oracle
10-02-2007, 10:20 AM
I can *easily* kiss my knees..
that's just perverted.
93legendti
10-02-2007, 10:20 AM
Yes, he had the 'toes down' style, but his seat wasn't too high like what fixed was
sayin' about people he's seen.
-g
Gotcha, thought he meant toe down pedalling,
mcoven
10-02-2007, 10:21 AM
This about right??? :crap:
Jack Brunk
10-02-2007, 10:28 AM
Jack,
Are you tired of that Cervelo yet??? :)
Nope. It's one of favorite rides at this time. It's going to Death Valley this weekend for the FC 508.
Grant McLean
10-02-2007, 10:30 AM
Some of the old guys really knew how to sit.
(ok, Bartoli's not old :) and he's not really sitting,
but he's about the best looking postion on the bike ever)
-g
Fixed
10-02-2007, 10:33 AM
Yes, he had the 'toes down' style, but his seat wasn't too high like what fixed was
sayin' about people he's seen.
-g
grant know me thanks again ... davis p. toe down too my fav american rider
cheers
Grant McLean
10-02-2007, 10:41 AM
... davis p. toe down too my fav american rider
cheers
if i ever have a kid, i'm naming him Davis.
-g
Climb01742
10-02-2007, 10:52 AM
Proportionally, frames today are getting shorter top tubes, and fewer and fewer people ride a stem longer than a 10cm. (that's why our shop has buckets full of 11 and 12 stems taken off bikes, and all we seem to sell is 8, 9, and 10's.)-g
gawd, is that true? do such short stems make bikes handle/steer kinda funky?
Grant McLean
10-02-2007, 10:55 AM
gawd, is that true? do such short stems make bikes handle/steer kinda funky?
yes, and yes...
Unfortunately, if you've only ridden a mtb, how would you know?
g
swoop
10-02-2007, 12:14 PM
you gotta look at fit as a puzzle... you can't isolate one piece from the other and it all starts with the persons body and how they 'sit' in their own skin.
last year was the year of guys with saddles too high (out here in lala), this year i'm seeing guys with their cleats too far forward on their shoes and their saddles to low (with the obligatory sliding off the back of the saddle that one does to strecth out the legs).
so, where the head tube ends and the bars need to be to get reached without rotating to weight to far back on the bike or putting a guy where his hands go numb...
is a case by case thing, no? but its not the thing that determines fit.
and everybody's arms and torsos are a little unique. but yes.. so many brands come in five sizes and thats five or ten too few so there are a lot of bad fits....
look at people's clothes.... this is not a country of folks that understand the concept of fit.
but yeah.. porn wise.. slammed is kinda sexy.
Grant McLean
10-02-2007, 12:25 PM
look at people's clothes.... this is not a country of folks that understand the concept of fit.
POTM !
-g
so many brands come in five sizes and thats five or ten too few so there are a lot of bad fits....Don’t you think top tube length in approximately 1 centimeter increments is enough for stock frames? :confused:
swoop
10-02-2007, 12:34 PM
Don’t you think top tube length in approximately 1 centimeter increments is enough for stock frames? :confused:
well, i think there's more to it than top tube length. so if its bikes with the same sta... no, that's not enough. and you can over so much with stem length. so its more about front center.
but some brands do certain sized better than others. i think merckx fits taller folks better than most and i think orbea dials in for the shorter forks better than most.
and i think what colnago does best is offer good stock geo in a number of sizes.
etc....
swoop, I agree with you that different brands have different characteristics; but given a particular objective they are trying to fill, why should they make a given stock model in 10 or 15 different sizes?
Given that the range of top tube lengths and front centers between small to large frames only vary by a few centimeters, having so many sizes would just add unnecessarily to cost IMHO. Anyone who needs more fit precision than 1 centimeter should be looking at custom anyway.
swoop
10-02-2007, 01:07 PM
swoop, I agree with you that different brands have different characteristics; but given a particular objective they are trying to fill, why should they make a given stock model in 10 or 15 different sizes?
Given that the range of top tube lengths and front centers between small to large frames only vary by a few centimeters, having so many sizes would just add unnecessarily to cost IMHO. Anyone who needs more fit precision than 1 centimeter should be looking at custom anyway.
we will agree to disagree. i say this because i think there's too big a gap in the fundamental way we both approach these things. of course, your way is wrong and mine is muy fabuloso! :banana:
dutri42590
10-02-2007, 01:22 PM
This about right??? :crap:
I have seen a bike vray simaler to it. as long as the perosn is comfordebal and the fork can take it.
JPR
Grant McLean
10-02-2007, 01:33 PM
why should they make a given stock model in 10 or 15 different sizes?
why not make 15 sizes?
shoes should all come in 1/2 sizes, and narrow, medium, and wide widths too...
g
72gmc
10-02-2007, 01:54 PM
Imagine a threadless -17 degree stem on Merckx's bike in that photo Grant posted. Imagine the 3cm of spacers he would need. If he had used threadless, a lot of us would think spacers are wicked awesome.
we will agree to disagree. i say this because i think there's too big a gap in the fundamental way we both approach these things. of course, your way is wrong and mine is muy fabuloso! :banana:OK swoop, we disagree; but on nothing more than you look at things "fundamentally".
why not make 15 sizes?
shoes should all come in 1/2 sizes, and narrow, medium, and wide widths too...
gGrant, with all due respect to you and swoop, I’ll agree to disagree with both of you.
Not all discrepancies in dimensions are comparable or have the same effect on comfort and/or handling. While we need shoes in small size increments because of fit sensitivity, we don’t need Toyota to build and stock Camrys with five different size steering wheels. Although it would be “marginally” better for a petite female to buy a Camry with a smaller steering wheel, the overall value added on a stocked automobile is not justified. For the few that must have exactness, they can always buy an aftermarket custom Momo or whatever floats their boat.
A standard Camry can be driven by many people from 5’-2” to 6’-4” with a few adjustments – like telescoping/tilting steering wheel and adjustable seats. And aren’t those the equivalent of stem, seat post, and saddle rail adjustments on a bicycle? And unlike Toyota models, bicycles at least come in different sizes. More sizes is good, but there is a point of diminishing returns; and for me one centimeter increments is more than enough for most riders.
For Indy racecar drivers custom fitted seats and steering wheels may be appropriate, but for the vast majority of us it’s not warranted, and would be a huge waste of funds. The same goes for bikes. Most of us don’t need custom everything.
oracle
10-02-2007, 02:37 PM
A standard Camry can be driven by many people from 5’-2” to 6’-4” with a few adjustments – like telescoping/tilting steering wheel and adjustable seats.
what about the people in the back seats?
what about the people in the back seats?Good point -- they some how survive a road trip without any adjustability. :crap:
mosca
10-02-2007, 02:48 PM
I think Trek has done a good thing with the sizing on the new Madones -basically three "proportions" are available across a size range for a total of 20 specific frame sizes. This may be the only good solution for the monocoque construction which can't really be customized. Good way to avoid that Boonen/Specialized fit fiasco scenario.
Grant McLean
10-02-2007, 03:34 PM
More sizes is good, but there is a point of diminishing returns; and for me one centimeter increments is more than enough for most riders.
I find it strange for someone to argue for less fit choices, but whatever.
-g
davids
10-02-2007, 03:45 PM
Proportionally, frames today are getting shorter top tubes, and fewer and fewer people ride a stem longer than a 10cm. (that's why our shop has buckets full of 11 and 12 stems taken off bikes, and all we seem to sell is 8, 9, and 10's.)
-g
G,
Can I have one bucket of 11cm and 12cm, mixed?
Thanks.
mflaherty37
10-02-2007, 03:49 PM
I see dudes and chicks with no seatpost. To be truly fab you must have no shims and lots of post.
Grant McLean
10-02-2007, 03:54 PM
G,
Can I have one bucket of 11cm and 12cm, mixed?
Thanks.
with fries or 'slaw?
-g
cadence90
10-02-2007, 04:06 PM
2 bikes one looks pro the other you ride
cheers imho
Ha ha ha ha ha! :)
Or, for the real PRO cheapskates with only 1 bike:
1) read lots of internest rules
2) build bike
3) photograph for internerds
4) adjust to fit reality
5) ride bike
Spicoli
10-02-2007, 04:35 PM
Dude he is so right about the size thing, more is better and there is no excuse not too offer it other than stuffing someone on an ill fitting bike to help a companies bottom line.
Colnagos are a great example, they can be purchased in half sizes almost through there entire range and thats stock! Now this a full carbon rig that has a pedegree second to none. If the level TT sizes dont hit you quite right than the slopers will fall in between them. The slopers are essentially the half sizes in there line up. I think most will back me on this, there is almost no need to ever have to get a custom Nag? Now they can do it and they are no longer the expensive carbon bike out there? I would have to say a C50 is one of the best carbon bargains going since otheer carbon rigs are all in the $4-5 grand range now?
How I see it atleast ;)
Jack Brunk
10-02-2007, 05:01 PM
I just picked up my Zanc and I'm still amazed. I would have thought based on how Justin had it set up, that I would have needed approx 25 mm of spacers and I would have needed a new carbon fork. I will post pictures later today but I didn't need any spacers and a 135mm/-7 stem works perfect for my contact points.
Still puzzled over bike fitting.
Jack
PS Zanc makes an incredible looking frame. First class all the way. Going for a ride then pictures.
vaxn8r
10-02-2007, 05:08 PM
I just picked up my Zanc and I'm still amazed. I would have thought based on how Justin had it set up, that I would have needed approx 25 mm of spacers and I would have needed a new carbon fork. I will post pictures later today but I didn't need any spacers and a 135mm/-7 stem works perfect for my contact points.
Still puzzled over bike fitting.
Jack
PS Zanc makes an incredible looking frame. First class all the way. Going for a ride then pictures.
Jack, my Legend was built up with just over 1 cm of spacers and it felt good so I left it that way, even though it looked like too much to me. The drop was 7.5 cm so it measured about right for me too. About 6 months ago I decided to remove all the spacers and guess what. It feels more better now. I rode it with spacers on top of the stem for a few months to convince myself before hacking the steerer but I finally did it. I'll post a pic later because it does look better. But more importantly, I like more drop on this bike. I haven't got the nerve to mess with the Calfee yet.
My (lengthy) point is, maybe the Zanc is right for you. Or maybe it's a new bike excitment that will wear off after a few hundred miles. I hope the former.
I find it strange for someone to argue for less fit choices, but whatever.
-gGrant, could it be that I am a realist and would see no benefit to companies going out of business unnecessarily?
I’ve yet to see on this forum anyone at any time articulate a rational argument why frame sizes should be "stocked" in less than 1-cm increments.
Let’s not forget bike companies are not charities and must make a profit in a competitive business environment.
shinomaster
10-02-2007, 05:31 PM
Helps with front cable routing into the cable hanger but if that's an issue it's probably better to use one of those long drop hangers:
http://www.toeclip.com/images/RD1911.JPG
But that's not all of it.
Grant McLean
10-02-2007, 06:39 PM
Grant, could it be that I am a realist and would see no benefit to companies going out of business unnecessarily?
I’ve yet to see on this forum anyone at any time articulate a rational argument why frame sizes should be "stocked" in less than 1-cm increments.
Please give me an example of a brand with 5 or 6 sizes that covers
48 to 63 cm in 1 cm increments? I don't get your math.
I'm fine with stock sizes of 1 cm seat tube and 1/2cm top tubes.
That's about 15 sizes in my book. 2 cm headtubes invervals is too much of
a gap atmo. There used to be lots of 1/2cm size stems available
too, but those are gone now. Deda newton and ITM colnago logo stems
used to be widely stocked in the .5cm sizes.
As someone who rides a 53 frame, 13cm headtube, with a 10.5 stem,
it's frustrating to be in a world of 52 and 54 frames with 12 and 14 headtubes,
and 10 or 11 stems. Why should I compromise?
-g
pdxmech13
10-02-2007, 09:36 PM
that jamis is mp......just sayin
all these cross bikes for sale this year.
cant wait until i have to sell adult trikes
swoop
10-02-2007, 10:01 PM
grant can set up my bike anytime. oh heck.. i'll just ride his the way he's got it.
shinomaster
10-03-2007, 01:34 AM
that jamis is mp......just sayin
all these cross bikes for sale this year.
cant wait until i have to sell adult trikes
Look at this one...
mosca
10-03-2007, 11:04 AM
Look at this one...
I can only assume that they are shipping these bikes with extra spacers so that the buyer can remove them as needed. But I hear you guys, would it kill them to set the bikes up all low and cool for these publicity shots?
Big Dan
10-03-2007, 11:06 AM
20mm max.
:)
barry1021
10-03-2007, 12:26 PM
I can only assume that they are shipping these bikes with extra spacers so that the buyer can remove them as needed. But I hear you guys, would it kill them to set the bikes up all low and cool for these publicity shots?
I would say this frame is too small for the rider.
b21
Please give me an example of a brand with 5 or 6 sizes that covers
48 to 63 cm in 1 cm increments? I don't get your math. Grant, I'm just saying it shouldn't take 10 to 15 sizes to cover 90% of the population, which is what "stocked" sizes means to me. Litespeed makes some models in five sizes (S, M, ML, L, XL) -- albeit some TT lengths jump in 2 cm increments which is too much. The larger sizes jump by 1 cm which is more appropriate IMO.
I'm fine with stock sizes of 1 cm seat tube and 1/2cm top tubes.
That's about 15 sizes in my book. 2 cm headtubes invervals is too much of
a gap atmo. There used to be lots of 1/2cm size stems available
too, but those are gone now. Deda newton and ITM colnago logo stems
used to be widely stocked in the .5cm sizes.With sloping top tubes I think the height of the bike is not as important as it used to be, so fewer "stocked" seat tube lengths should be fine. Aesthetics is more of a limitation than function. An extra centimeter or two of exposed seat post or a different stem angle doesn't change much of anything except appearance.
As someone who rides a 53 frame, 13cm headtube, with a 10.5 stem,
it's frustrating to be in a world of 52 and 54 frames with 12 and 14 headtubes,
and 10 or 11 stems. Why should I compromise?
-gYou shouldn't compromise if you can afford it, but many have real financial limitations. With more cash a rider can either get a custom manufactured to the exact dimensions, or find a different brand that makes their size.
I would hate to see the cost of bikes go up even more because manufacturers and bike shops have to make and inventory twice as many bike sizes.
A one centimeter increment in TT or stem lengths means that a rider can be off no more than 5 MM from perfection, right? And to achieve the correct reach, that means moving the saddle forward or backwards no more than about 3/16 of an inch (worse case scenario), which is an incredibly small amount very few would ever notice IMO.
Grant McLean
10-03-2007, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=RPS]Grant, I'm just saying it shouldn't take 10 to 15 sizes to cover 90% of the population, which is what "stocked" sizes means to me. Litespeed makes some models in five sizes (S, M, ML, L, XL) -- albeit some TT lengths jump in 2 cm increments which is too much. The larger sizes jump by 1 cm which is more appropriate IMO.
[QUOTE]
You need at least 8 top tubes by your own 1cm example:
52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59
g
mosca
10-03-2007, 02:49 PM
I would say this frame is too small for the rider.
b21Problem is that these bikes are not set up for any particular rider - they are set up to allow the dealer to cover as many possible fit scenarios when they are sold. You can't un-cut a steerer tube. Just wish they would take the time to set them up nice for the photo shoot.
swoop
10-03-2007, 02:58 PM
I can only assume that they are shipping these bikes with extra spacers so that the buyer can remove them as needed. But I hear you guys, would it kill them to set the bikes up all low and cool for these publicity shots?
they don't want to cut the fork steerers for the shot. the photog is rarely a biker and usually the bike goes back into someones inventory...
(12 years of art directoing and props on these kinds of things).
Jeff Weir
10-03-2007, 03:35 PM
Actually you don't need to cut the steerer to get the "look". Just mount the stem so it is visually pleasing, and in photoshop you remove what's left above.
No problemo
[QUOTE=RPS]Grant, I'm just saying it shouldn't take 10 to 15 sizes to cover 90% of the population, which is what "stocked" sizes means to me. Litespeed makes some models in five sizes (S, M, ML, L, XL) -- albeit some TT lengths jump in 2 cm increments which is too much. The larger sizes jump by 1 cm which is more appropriate IMO.
[QUOTE]
You need at least 8 top tubes by your own 1cm example:
52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59
gGrant, I think we agree more technically than financially. I agree that it would be beneficial to have many more size choices, but don't think it is cost effective.
If it was, manufacturers would already be offering many more sizes to be more competitive and make more profits.
e-RICHIE
10-03-2007, 03:59 PM
Actually you don't need to cut the steerer to get the "look". Just mount the stem so it is visually pleasing, and in photoshop you remove what's left above.
No problemo
gets it atmo.
swoop
10-03-2007, 04:04 PM
Actually you don't need to cut the steerer to get the "look". Just mount the stem so it is visually pleasing, and in photoshop you remove what's left above.
No problemo
and the good mr weir makes my point. he knows bikes (and likely knows what he shoots everytime he gets a gig). willing to bet the fellow that shot the bikes above doesn't know bikes.
you'd be amazed the stuff i'd have to fight for to make things look right. and the stuff that would get letters written into the ad agency for being so wrong.
mosca
10-03-2007, 04:06 PM
gets it atmo.Hire That Man!!
e-RICHIE
10-03-2007, 04:09 PM
and the good mr weir makes my point. he knows bikes (and likely knows what he shoots everytime he gets a gig). willing to bet the fellow that shot the bikes above doesn't know bikes.
you'd be amazed the stuff i'd have to fight for to make things look right. and the stuff that would get letters written into the ad agency for being so wrong.
the photographer should be the shooter and
not the bicycle food stylist atmo and atspo.
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