Why do I consistently bust Serotta's chops?

[Sandy]

I was just asked the following question in a thread:

"Why do you consistently bust Serottals chops? 1rst pricing, then the model names, and now the website? Why?"

Just prior to that,in the thread, I was told by someone from Serotta that I was bashing that person's livelihood.

So please let me try to adequately answer the question above-

Pricing- I used to operate a small wholesale meat business. I care a great deal about small business, and know first hand how extremely difficult it is for a small business to compete with the giant ones in the same area. Serotta is a small business. Iwant small businesses to flourish. In particular, I want Serotta to flourish. Why- Because I own a Serotta bike and previously owned another one. Both bikes have given me tremendous enjoyment and satisfaction. I have tremendous respect and admiration for Ben Serotta and those who work at Serotta. Serotta exhibits integrity in its manner of operation. That I greatly respect. Ben Serotta was very kind, caring, sensitive, and compassionate to my wife when we visited there several year ago. In addition, and very importantly, the Serotta Forum has added immeasuralby to my life. I have acquired lasting friendships which I will always cherish, obtained great cycling content, and have learned a great deal about myself, others, and how to interact with and treat others. I am tremendously indebted to Serotta, Ben Serotta, the employees at Serotta, and the Serotta Forum and the posters on the forum.

What does that have to do with pricing- Serotta's prices continue to escalate (as do others), and there is increased US and off shore competition for Serotta's limted market share. I want Serotta to succeed and I am concerned about how Serotta's current pricing will affect its sales.

I will continue on my next post, as I think there may be a limit in characters allowed in a post.


Sandy

[rwsaunders]

"Question authority, unless it's your drill instructor or any other higher rank."

[Kevan]

works for me.

[JohnS]

It's subliminal. You're unhappy with your cycling performance which makes you unhappy with cycling in general which makes you unhappy with the tool you use.

[dirtdigger88]

Ben has done well for himself over the years-

Trust the man to run his business

Jason

[Ginger]

Sandy...

Maybe it's payback for all the customers of your small meat business who busted your chops.

I suspect you knew your business and your prices and the effects of raising or lowering those prices. I suspect that when your customers complained you had to tell them that it was your livelyhood and that you knew your business better than they did even though they were the ones buying your products. They had no idea of the market forces that moved your prices up or down.

Break out of the cycle.

[e-RICHIE]

after twizzlers, this is where my favorite food originates atmo -

http://www.atlanticcitynj.com/images/press/food_taffy2_large.jpg

[Ginger]

after twizzlers, this is where my favorite food originates atmo -

http://www.atlanticcitynj.com/images/press/food_taffy2_large.jpg

Hmmm...I wonder if it's gluten-free?

[Sandy]

Model names- I initially asked about model names simply because I was curious as to what GS and ES stand for. I was not the only one. I then thought that perhaps Serotta really does not want us to know what the letters stand for as some of us might perceive a negative connotation attached to one of the meanings.

Website- I do not work. I have lots of free time and I spend a great deal of it on the Serotta Forum. Serotta James asked a question as to why we find the website confusing realtive to the 2008 information dissemination. I tried to answer that question as genuinely and directly as I could. My answer was taken as if I was bashing someone's livelihood. I would never do that.

I spend the time addressing issues like pricing, model names, and the website because I DEEPLY care about Serotta, probably as much as anyone not directly involved with the company. I am direct, genuine,sincere,and honest in what I say and how I say it. That is my nature. Some don't like that approach.

As stated in my initial post herein, I have gained a great deal from my association with Serotta- Fantastic pleasure in riding a genuinely special bicycle, remarkably excellent treatment from Ben Serotta and those at Serotta, a great opportunity to learn about bikes and more importantly about myself and how to treat others, and the ability to make some friendships that I will always cherish. I addition, Serotta is small business, just like my business was, and I care a great deal about the little guy.

So , perhaps, I am too direct, say too much, react too easily, am too sensitive (I know that is the case), but it is all because I care about Serotta and its future and I am most appreciative of what it has given me asking almost nothing in return.


Sandy

[93legendti]

Kilwin's is---sadly...

[e-RICHIE]

Hmmm...I wonder if it's gluten-free?
they do mail order (http://www.jamescandy.com/) atmo.

[93legendti]

Model names- I initially asked about model names simply because I was curious as to what GS and ES stand for. I was not the only one. I then thought that perhaps Serotta really does not want us to know what the lettersstand for as someof us might perceive a negativ coonotation attached to one of meanings.

Website- I do not work. I have lots of free time and I spend a great deal of it on the Serotta Forum. Serotta James asked a question as to why we find the website confusing realtive to the 2008 information dissemination. I tried to answer that question as genuinely and directly as I could. My answer was taken as if I was bashing someone's livelihood. I woul neve do tht.

I spend the time addressing issues like pricing, model names, and the website because I DEEPLY care about Serotta, probably as much as anyone not directly involved with the company. I am direct, genuine,sincere, and honest in what I say and how I say it. That is my nature. Some don't like that approach.

As stated in my initial post herein, I have gained a great deal from my association with Serotta- Fantastic pleasure in riding a genuinely special bicycle, remarkably excellent treatment from Ben Serotta and those at Serotta, a great opportunity to learn about bikes and more importantly about myself and how to treat others, and the ability to make some friendships that I will always cherish. I addition. Serotta is small business, just like my business was, and I care a great deal about the little guy.

So , perhaps, I am too direct, say too much, react too easily, am too sensitive (I know that is the case), but it is all because I care about Serotta and its future and I am most appreciative of what it has given me asking nothing in return.


Sandy



Sandy
Serotta will be fine. Really.


Now, how many days did you ride this week?

[William]

Sandy, if you have questions...ask away.

If something doesn't make sense...ask them to explain.

If you think something is wong...say so.

Variety is the spice of life.

Kool aid is good. But the same kool aid day in and day out gets boring real fast.

There will always be someone, some where, some time, some way who doesn't like what you may say. Too bad, you can't please everyone so don't try. Be true to yourself, your beliefs, and your convictions.

Just be you. Nuff said.


William

[Sandy]

Sandy...

Maybe it's payback for all the customers of your small meat business who busted your chops.

I suspect you knew your business and your prices and the effects of raising or lowering those prices. I suspect that when your customers complained you had to tell them that it was your livelyhood and that you knew your business better than they did even though they were the ones buying your products. They had no idea of the market forces that moved your prices up or down.

Break out of the cycle.

Actually, it did not work like that at all, unfotunately. My business was exceptionally competitive. I could not charge what I wanted to charge or needed to charge, but only what I could charge, as all a customer had to do was to pick up a phone and get a price for the same procuct from someone else. If the perception becomes that one can purchase a similar or equal quality product for some other bicycle producer than Serotta at the ame or lesser money, then Serotta will be in big trouble, I would think.

But remember Ginger, in my business it wasn't customer's busting my chops, as you said, but me selling them my chops, as in pork chops...guess they did bust them after they bought them..... :)


Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

there must be alot of great jokes in the wholesale meat industry.
what kind of shet did you guys sling in the elevators and bars at
the trade shows atmo?

[Sandy]

Sandy, if you have questions...ask away.

If something doesn't make sense...ask them to explain.

If you think something is wong...say so.

Variety is the spice of life.

Kool aid is good. But the same kool aid day in and day out gets boring real fast.

There will always be someone, some where, some time, some way who doesn't like what you may say. Too bad, you can't please everyone so don't try. Be true to yourself, your beliefs, and your convictions.

Just be you. Nuff said.


William

Thanks. I really appreciate that. I lost a friendship that was important to me, partially because I did precisely what you said herein- I thought something was wrong, and I told the person such. That person did not like what I had to say. I was absolutely true to myself, my beliefs, and my convictions. Unforunately it cost me the friendship of someone I cared about.


Thaks so much. Your post is most meaningful to me. Very much so!!

[Dave B]

Thanks. I really appreciate that. I lost a friendship that was important to me, partially because I did precisely what you said herein- I thought something was wrong, and I told the person such. That person did not like what I had to say. I was absolutely true to myself, my beliefs, and my convictions. Unforunately it cost me the friendship of someone I cared about.


Thaks so much. Your post is most meaningful to me. Very much so!!



Ironically, that is what I would call a friend.

Over the year or two i have been part of this place many people have been stung by a comment or two. Many of us are sensitive, overly so or not at all. Isn't that people????

In addition typing words does not actually mean communicating. Communicating involves inflection of tone, gesturing, and body language.

I would understand a business wishing to defend it practices in a public forum, especially one like this one. However, that is the beauty of what makes business improve, change, falter, and adjust how they do things.

There is only one person who can destroy this company and that is the founder. He has yet to shut this forum down and has the strength to weather any heat he takes as a result of collective decisions made for the betterment of the company.

Although...(I love transitions) each owner of a serotta is as vital to the company in the sense that we are consuming the ideas, labors, and art that is this company.

I say all comments are worth listening too, but the great thing about that is the we have the freedom to agree or disagree.

I say arguments are the establishment of passion. Let em roll and sharpen your wits.

Sandy you did nothing wrong, you voiced your passion, as did others. Sometimes things simply are misinterpreted.

Or I could be wrong and you'll all burn for this! :D

[CNY rider]

Actually, it did not work like that at all, unfotunately. My business was exceptionally competitive. I could not charge what I wanted to charge or needed to charge, but only what I could charge, as all a customer had to do was to pick up a phone and get a price for the same procuct from someone else. If the perception becomes that one can purchase a similar or equal quality product for some other bicycle producer than Serotta at the ame or lesser money, then Serotta will be in big trouble, I would think.

But remember Ginger, in my business it wasn't customer's busting my chops, as you said, but me selling them my chops, as in pork chops...guess they did bust them after they bought them..... :)


Sandy
Sandy I think the application of your business model to Serotta's business is what leads you astray.
You were selling a commodity. Butcher needed 30 lbs. of pork chops, he could call you and get them for price X, and then check with your competitor and get them for 10 cents less a pound. Key to this is that they were all the same chops. The end customer (consumer) didn't care which wholesaler they came from as long as they were consistent quality. There is the occasional oddball like me that wants to actually see where the pig lives, and know what it eats, and is willing to pay a hefty premium per chop to be secure in that knowledge. That's somewhat analogous to the folks shopping for Serotta bicycles.

Serotta is most definitely NOT trying to sell a commodity product. In fact to do so would be the death knell for their business. They sell a product that appeals to enthusiasts, and they differentiate themselves on top notch features and quality not just in their products but throughout their customer relationships. People seek out their product for the perceived excellence associated with it, and they willingly pay the higher prices.

Commodity businesses must sell in volume to succeed. That's not the business Serotta is in.

[Climb01742]

I was just asked the following question in a thread:

"Why do you consistently bust Serottals chops? 1rst pricing, then the model names, and now the website? Why?"

Just prior to that,in the thread, I was told by someone from Serotta that I was bashing that person's livelihood.

So please let me try to adequately answer the question above-

Pricing- I used to operate a small wholesale meat business. I care a great deal about small business, and know first hand how extremely difficult it is for a small business to compete with the giant ones in the same area. Serotta is a small business. Iwant small businesses to flourish. In particular, I want Serotta to flourish. Why- Because I own a Serotta bike and previously owned another one. Both bikes have given me tremendous enjoyment and satisfaction. I have tremendous respect and admiration for Ben Serotta and those who work at Serotta. Serotta exhibits integrity in its manner of operation. That I greatly respect. Ben Serotta was very kind, caring, sensitive, and compassionate to my wife when we visited there several year ago. In addition, and very importantly, the Serotta Forum has added immeasuralby to my life. I have acquired lasting friendships which I will always cherish, obtained great cycling content, and have learned a great deal about myself, others, and how to interact with and treat others. I am tremendously indebted to Serotta, Ben Serotta, the employees at Serotta, and the Serotta Forum and the posters on the forum.

What does that have to do with pricing- Serotta's prices continue to escalate (as do others), and there is increased US and off shore competition for Serotta's limted market share. I want Serotta to succeed and I am concerned about how Serotta's current pricing will affect its sales.

I will continue on my next post, as I think there may be a limit in characters allowed in a post.


Sandy

sandy, i think you have every right to post every word you've ever posted. this is a discussion forum, not an adulation society. beyond that, serotta has made some, shall we say, interesting choices. giving your opinion on those choices is absolutely fair game. an opinion hurts no one and harms ben's business in no way whatsoever. freedom of expression, particularly with the civility you always show, is still, i believe, part of america...though january 20th, 2009 is still a ways away, so who knows.

[Sandy]

Sandy I think the application of your business model to Serotta's business is what leads you astray.
You were selling a commodity. Butcher needed 30 lbs. of pork chops, he could call you and get them for price X, and then check with your competitor and get them for 10 cents less a pound. Key to this is that they were all the same chops. The end customer (consumer) didn't care which wholesaler they came from as long as they were consistent quality. There is the occasional oddball like me that wants to actually see where the pig lives, and know what it eats, and is willing to pay a hefty premium per chop to be secure in that knowledge. That's somewhat analogous to the folks shopping for Serotta bicycles.

Serotta is most definitely NOT trying to sell a commodity product. In fact to do so would be the death knell for their business. They sell a product that appeals to enthusiasts, and they differentiate themselves on top notch features and quality not just in their products but throughout their customer relationships. People seek out their product for the perceived excellence associated with it, and they willingly pay the higher prices.

Commodity businesses must sell in volume to succeed. That's not the business Serotta is in.

Your points are quite accurate, but that is precisely where I see a potential problem. If purchasers of bicycles thought of Serotta bikes as a commodity, then Serotta would not exist today, because of precisely what you say. But I am not talking about yesterday or today for Serotta, but for the future of Serotta. What will the perception be in the future? Serotta has its own niche. But there is increased competition form companies both here and even abroad for some of that niche. Is Serotta's business model able to even consider the possibility of expanding its niche and producing cheaper priced carbon road bikes? What if more and more of Serotta potential purchasers decide that although Serotta bikes are Wondeful with a capital W, brand xyz bikes are wonderful too, but not with a capital W, but wonderful enough to purchase. What if more and more potential Serotta purchasers simply say that I can find more value (whatever that is) elsewhere? There are other custom bike makers who are make superior custom bikes too.

I agree, Serotta bikes are not looked at like a commodity. But maybe the commodity type bikes will draw close enough to Serotta in quality and design, that people will purchase those bikes. Suppose a Trek type company someday decides to have a custom design operation.....?

I am talking future, not past, or present.


Sandy

[manet]

'value added', marketing term or marriage perk amongst the obsese?

[Sandy]

'value added', marketing term or marriage perk amongst the obsese?

I think "value added" to Serotta would be if I bought a ticket to take a plane to New York and someone paid for one way all the way to Pluto! :)


Sandy

[Dave B]

I hear Pluto is not as nice to visit as you think.

Very particular about what you ride there. If you do not have the right bike then....well, I can't say.

[shinomaster]

It's subliminal. You're unhappy with your cycling performance which makes you unhappy with cycling in general which makes you unhappy with the tool you use.


You must be a shrink?

[JohnS]

You must be a shrink?Naw, that's swoop.

[Too Tall]

after twizzlers, this is where my favorite food originates atmo -

http://www.atlanticcitynj.com/images/press/food_taffy2_large.jpg

Sandy, I'll buy youz a bagelanasmear everything's fine

It happens here:

http://www.russanddaughters.com/

[Too Tall]

Actually, it did not work like that at all, unfotunately. My business was exceptionally competitive. I could not charge what I wanted to charge or needed to charge, but only what I could charge, as all a customer had to do was to pick up a phone and get a price for the same procuct from someone else. If the perception becomes that one can purchase a similar or equal quality product for some other bicycle producer than Serotta at the ame or lesser money, then Serotta will be in big trouble, I would think.

But remember Ginger, in my business it wasn't customer's busting my chops, as you said, but me selling them my chops, as in pork chops...guess they did bust them after they bought them..... :)


Sandy

Sandy, maybe it was where your business had positioned itself in the market. For instance there are meat suppliers who have enormous investment in aged beef for fancy schmancy resturants. On a Food Network show I watched the supplier said he had approximately 70,000 in aged beef at various stages in waiting. If Serotta positions themselves to sell to a narrow segment of the buying public tell me hows come they should follow anyone elses lead regards pricing?

[Sandy]

Sandy, maybe it was where your business had positioned itself in the market. For instance there are meat suppliers who have enormous investment in aged beef for fancy schmancy resturants. On a Food Network show I watched the supplier said he had approximately 70,000 in aged beef at various stages in waiting. If Serotta positions themselves to sell to a narrow segment of the buying public tell me hows come they should follow anyone elses lead regards pricing?

They should NOT follow anyone elses lead regarding pricing whatsover.....if it works. Serotta made an important investment in its carbon facility. That undoubtedly places a substantial financial burden. Serotta, like all businesses faces escalating costs and must price its products at a high enough margin in order to turn a profit. What I am saying, is that the industry is changing rapidly. They see this and the investment in a facility that can produce carbon tubing, forks, stems,...., seems like a natural and excellent move by Serotta to both keep product costs down and perhaps be able in time to offer carbon items to the market that it produces and does not purchase. All I was saying, is that because of escalating prices of Serotta products and increased competition from within and outside of the US for a portion of Serotta's niche, then Serotta may, and I say may, as I know little specifically about Serotta and/or the industry, possibly find some of its market niche erode as potential purchasers go elsewhere to purchase bikes, both custom and non-custom simply because of price considerations. I meant no disrespect to Serotta or anyone there with these comments.

So to reiterate my answer to your question, with no explanation- They should not follow anyone elses lead regarding to pricing, if their pricing wil continue to work....... In fact, they probably shouldn't ever follow anyone else's lead, since only Serotta knows how it must price its own products. What I am saying, however, is that perhaps Serotta may need to think a broader market in the future as their prices continue to escalate and competiton gets even tougher. I stated my opinion and seemed to get attacked for doing it. I gave it because I care about Serotta.


Sandy

[saab2000]

It would appear that there are people who are willing to pay pretty much whatever Serotta wishes to charge. That's fine. Same with Rolls-Royce and Gulfstream and other high-end things.

When sales start dropping or leveling off they may have to re-think their pricing. But until then it could be argued that they are charging too little.

I am priced out of the market for a new Serotta. No doubt about that. But somehow I still own two of them.

Works for me.

[Sandy]

I agree with you in what you say. But remember that Serotta only sold those two Serottas you own, one time each. It participated in the process just once.The important question is where did the guy or gal go or where will the guy or gal go to purchase his or her replacement bike?


I think that Serotta would like to replace me with a dummy.....maybe not...they probably think that I am a dummy....,


:) Super Smart Serotta Sandy :)

[e-RICHIE]

I agree with you in what you say. But remember that Serotta only sold those two Serottas you own, one time each. It participated in the process just once.The important question is where did the guy or gal go or where will the guy or gal go to purchase his or her replacement bike?


I think that Serotta would like to replace me with a dummy.....maybe not...they probably think that I am a dummy....,


:) Super Smart Serotta Sandy :)
sandy - get out on the bike atmo.

[Sandy]

sandy - get out on the bike atmo.

Great idea. I was on the forum so much yesterday, that, after getting a pedal fixed, and finding out that one of my two wheelsets has a cracked rear rim, and switching the wheels, I did a grand total of 7 miles on the bike.

I am going to do a club ride this AM of 34 miles, and will really try to spin at a high cadence. I may try another club ride later today, but I have not been sleeping enough and already feel like taking a nap.

Last time that I took a nap, I remember that your waiting list was about 3-4 months. Still the same??


Super Smart Serotta Sandy

[soulspinner]

For me(started the cda pricing thread and got some negative and some positive replies) when you price a steel frame (and fork) to where other highly reputable builders build titanium frames, it muddies the waters. I dont need a great bike or another bike, its a luxury. If im going to spend 2900 on a steel frame and fork, Im either getting a Peg stainless or a ti bike. At 1900 for a 2007 frame(cda) I could hang a reynolds UL on, Im able to rationalize it. At 2900( Im not going to spend over 2000 and get a GS) I might as well get an Axiom, a ti Crown Jewel etc. Maybe Im not making sense, Im sure someone will straighten me out. That said Id love to have a Legend SE, but I called the dealer and its 5000 large. Used makes huge sense, I could even hang a new Campy group on it.

[Too Tall]

Make your points so well Bambi I'm having a hard time playing dumb erk erk erk. What Serotta bike if any represents that "guy"?

[sg8357]

Signs Serotta is about to go the hot place.

KKR decides to take over company.
Trek decides they need a hi-end division.
Gold plated anything.
Made in China/Taiwan/Jersey stickers.
Serotta top tube pads.

When any of the above manifest, I'll worry about Serotta.

Scott G.

[Pedro72]

Does anyone, other than me, dig the black licorice Twizzlers?

http://www.groovycandies.com/uploadmedia/images/1655.jpg

[Ginger]

Does anyone, other than me, dig the black licorice Twizzlers?

http://www.groovycandies.com/uploadmedia/images/1655.jpg

No.

They're all yours babycakes.


Sandy. Don't stop asking questions and writing your well thought out rants. I think part of it is that Serottas are so great you'd like to see them at a pricepoint that the masses could be pedaling Serottas. But then they wouldn't be Serottas anymore because mass production disallows individuality.

Do go ride more!

Love,
Ginger

[spiderman]

the serotta marketing department
leaves an open seat at all their meetings
in honor of you.
they hang on every word you've ever said.
consequently, you're ticked
that your 'consultant check'
has never hit your direct deposit account...
...don't worry,
they'll come around
and hire you eventually!

[rwsaunders]

Does anyone, other than me, dig the black licorice Twizzlers?

http://www.groovycandies.com/uploadmedia/images/1655.jpg

I like to knot the strawberry and chocolate Twizzers together.

[Sandy]

the serotta marketing department
leaves an open seat at all their meetings
in honor of you.
they hang on every word you've ever said.
consequently, you're ticked
that your 'consultant check'
has never hit your direct deposit account...
...don't worry,
they'll come around
and hire you eventually!

I think that the seat you refer to above is an electric chair in my case..... :)


:banana: Sizzling Sparking Smoldering Serotta Sandy :banana:

[Sandy]

No.

They're all yours babycakes.


Sandy. Don't stop asking questions and writing your well thought out rants. I think part of it is that Serottas are so great you'd like to see them at a pricepoint that the masses could be pedaling Serottas. But then they wouldn't be Serottas anymore because mass production disallows individuality.

Do go ride more!

Love,
Ginger

How about a non-custom carbon bike made in the USA, using the new facility for the tubing, and Serotta's design, at a price point competitive to other producers, or at least somewhat close? Why would that not work????


Sandy

[93legendti]

sandy - get out on the bike atmo.

Listen to Coach.

[Sandy]

Listen to Coach.

Just got back from a ride- 32 miles- tried to spin a lot. Isn't easy, at least for me. I have no trouble spinning at a high cadence, but I do have touble maintaining it. Tha endurance thing.Tomorrow- a hilly 45 mile ride- even though I feel drained and very tired and sleepy.


Snoring Sandy

[93legendti]

Just got back from a ride- 32 miles- tried to spin a lot. Isn't easy, at least for me. I have no trouble spinning at a high cadence, but I do have touble maintaining it. Tha endurance thing.Tomorrow- a hilly 45 mile ride- even though I feel drained and very tired and sleepy.


Snoring Sandy

Great to hear! Try drinking 2 large glasses of water after you ride...works for me.

Aquafied Adam

[Ozz]

...Tomorrow- a hilly 45 mile ride- even though I feel drained and very tired and sleepy....Snoring Sandy
Go take a nap..... ;)

[Sandy]

Go take a nap..... ;)

During or before the ride?? :)


:) Super Smart Sleeping Snoring Serotta Sandy :)

[Lifelover]

How about a non-custom carbon bike made in the USA, using the new facility for the tubing, and Serotta's design, at a price point competitive to other producers, or at least somewhat close? Why would that not work????


Sandy

It probably would work. Maybe E-richie should think along the same lines but in steel of course. Then again when he has a 5 year (?) waiting list why should he spend time making bikes with a lower profit margin.

I suspect that Serotta is in a similar situation. Plenty of work at a high (relative) margin.

[e-RICHIE]

It probably would work. Maybe E-richie should think along the same lines but in steel of course. Then again when he has a 5 year (?) waiting list why should he spend time making bikes with a lower profit margin.

I suspect that Serotta is in a similar situation. Plenty of work at a high (relative) margin.
dare i say - most builders, especially me, think of serotta as
the next step along the way going from a one-man shop to
its exponential end. i have always felt that way. ben is
alone in that he has nailed it. others have tried to expand
and failed. atmo serotta cycles is alone in a place in the
industry and has no peers. and they are not industry at all
atmo. i have not followed this thread except to see that
when sandy is posting he is not riding, and that's not gonna
help anyone. serotta cycles has no need to do price point
or entry level. if they want to, fine. but atmo they are at
the top of the food chain.

[I Want Sachs?]

Your points are quite accurate, but that is precisely where I see a potential problem. If purchasers of bicycles thought of Serotta bikes as a commodity, then Serotta would not exist today, because of precisely what you say. But I am not talking about yesterday or today for Serotta, but for the future of Serotta. What will the perception be in the future? Serotta has its own niche. But there is increased competition form companies both here and even abroad for some of that niche. Is Serotta's business model able to even consider the possibility of expanding its niche and producing cheaper priced carbon road bikes? What if more and more of Serotta potential purchasers decide that although Serotta bikes are Wondeful with a capital W, brand xyz bikes are wonderful too, but not with a capital W, but wonderful enough to purchase. What if more and more potential Serotta purchasers simply say that I can find more value (whatever that is) elsewhere? There are other custom bike makers who are make superior custom bikes too.

I agree, Serotta bikes are not looked at like a commodity. But maybe the commodity type bikes will draw close enough to Serotta in quality and design, that people will purchase those bikes. Suppose a Trek type company someday decides to have a custom design operation.....?

I am talking future, not past, or present.


Sandy

The truth is that many of those willing to spend a lot more than "reasonable" on a bike is partly drawn to it by the reputation of the steed. If the bike can be had at a much lower price, the prestiege/exclusiveness factor is lost, and that lack of lust might actually lead to demise of the brand.

If Giant happens to makes a bike that fits me like a glove, and the design and tubes are just right for my riding style, I could argue a custom Serotta is not better or worse. However, many here would still find reason to point out how Serotta is better. Partly is because the reputation that Serotta has achieved through the exclusiveness and the price.

If Serotta can find enough business selling at high prices, then more power to them. Their goal is not to put a Serotta under everyone rider in the world. They want to ensure good profit margin so that the employees are making enough money by working decent hours and feel proud about their product. Once you reduce the margin, the pressure goes up and the morale and eventually product can spiral down fast.

[Sandy]

dare i say - most builders, especially me, think of serotta as
the next step along the way going from a one-man shop to
its exponential end. i have always felt that way. ben is
alone in that he has nailed it. others have tried to expand
and failed. atmo serotta cycles is alone in a place in the
industry and has no peers. and they are not industry at all
atmo. i have not followed this thread except to see that
when sandy is posting he is not riding, and that's not gonna
help anyone. serotta cycles has no need to do price point
or entry level. if they want to, fine. but atmo they are at
the top of the food chain.

I rode today- Did a very hilly (for me) 46.5 mile club ride with 3900 feet of climbing. My enduance was much improved from a few months ago, I did spin a lot, my flat riding was better, as was my climbing hills, even long ones that were not steep. But on the very steep hills, I cannot spin since I am unable to turn the cranks over very fast. Actually on steep hilss, the cranks move very slowly. I need more strength- better technique too. Great ride. Really enjoyed it.

Concerning your comments on Serotta- Of course Serotta is at the top of the food chain. You are at top of the food chain. But you have a zillion year wait list and have entirely different business models. You are basically a business of one, I believe. Serotta is a small bicycle builder, but much larger than you with much more overhead, employees to consider, innovation with new technology, business investments....I just don't want hungry people to start picking their food at the second level of the food chain.


Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

But you have a zillion year wait list and have entirely different business models. You are basically a business of one, I believe. Serotta is a small bicycle builder, but much larger than you with much more overhead, employees to consider, innovation with new technology, business investments....


Sandy
i did not know that atmo -

http://www.medaloffreedom.com/JohnnyCarson3.jpg

[Sandy]

It probably would work. Maybe E-richie should think along the same lines but in steel of course. Then again when he has a 5 year (?) waiting list why should he spend time making bikes with a lower profit margin.

I suspect that Serotta is in a similar situation. Plenty of work at a high (relative) margin.

Great points. e-RICHIE should proably do exactly what he is doing, I would suspect- There would be no reason whatsover for him to make lower priced bikes at lower margins, unless he has the time and inclination to basically start a new buiness venture.

If Serotta has plenty of work at a high (relative) margin....and they can maintain such, thenthere would probably be absolutely no reason for Serotta to do such either.


Sandy

[Sandy]

The truth is that many of those willing to spend a lot more than "reasonable" on a bike is partly drawn to it by the reputation of the steed. If the bike can be had at a much lower price, the prestiege/exclusiveness factor is lost, and that lack of lust might actually lead to demise of the brand.

If Giant happens to makes a bike that fits me like a glove, and the design and tubes are just right for my riding style, I could argue a custom Serotta is not better or worse. However, many here would still find reason to point out how Serotta is better. Partly is because the reputation that Serotta has achieved through the exclusiveness and the price.

If Serotta can find enough business selling at high prices, then more power to them. Their goal is not to put a Serotta under everyone rider in the world. They want to ensure good profit margin so that the employees are making enough money by working decent hours and feel proud about their product. Once you reduce the margin, the pressure goes up and the morale and eventually product can spiral down fast.


Totally agree, as long as what you say stays in effect.


Sandy

[Sandy]

i did not know that atmo -

http://www.medaloffreedom.com/JohnnyCarson3.jpg

Of course you do, and I realize you are saying it in jest or saying that the obvious is too obvious to even say. My point was that you have lots of orders for your extremely limited production,whereas who know if that applies to Serotta and will contine for Serotta in the future.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I don't profess to know much about Serotta's business.

I don't know much about anyone's business.

I just have a concern for the future of a company that I care a great deal about, for many previously mentioned reasons.

Nothing more, nothing less. I just gave some of my thoughts and perceptions.


Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

Of course you do, and I realize you are saying it in jest or saying that the obvious is too obvious to even say. My point was that you have lots of orders for your extremely limited production,whereas who know if that applies to Serotta and will contine for Serotta in the future.


Sandy
i knew you know that i know what you know atmo.
face facts - serotta (atmo) is alone in their place
in all this; they are not a seven, or an IF, or a litespeed,
(ack there goes my nice line breaks), or a cannondale,
or a giant. i don't see serotta being any different from
any of the niche builders (none of whom were niche
until 90% of our peers jumped the shark atmo) who
do quality work on a small basis. serotta is not baylis
small, but they are not a ford model (http://img.pte.at/photo_db/hi_res/hires16782.jpg) either. i trust
they will survive and prosper.

[PBWrench]

Now, here's a sexy Ford and business model:

[manet]

i knew you know that i know what you know atmo.
face facts - serotta (atmo) is alone in their place
in all this; they are not a seven, or an IF, or a litespeed,
(ack there goes my nice line breaks), or a cannondale,
or a giant. i don't see serotta being any different from
any of the niche builders (none of whom were niche
until 90% of our peers jumped the shark atmo) who
do quality work on a small basis. serotta is not baylis
small, but they are not a ford model (http://img.pte.at/photo_db/hi_res/hires16782.jpg) either. i trust
they will survive and prosper.

does litespeed bulge or what

[93legendti]

Sandy, in 2004, you were worried about pricing:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=5050&highlight=tuna

and in 2005 you were worried about pricing:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=10391&highlight=tuna

Maybe you worry too much?

Remember what Nuke said: "Don't think, you'll only hurt the ballclub".

Here's some of your quotes from those threads:

"I think that those at Serotta reached the end of our planet earth, and decided to jump off."

"I also would not purchase Serotta's new bike. In fact, its announcement actually makes it less likely for me to buy any Serotta bike. It really does."

"But I find the price ludicrous, relative to what is available today, and I say that with no reservation, without seeing or test riding the new carbon Ottrott."

"Serotta simply seems, to me, to be pushing the purchase price of the Ottrott to a point at which cyclists will simply say enough is enough, and no matter how good it is, the buyer will go with the cheese or egg salad sandwich."

Remember what e-Ritchie said: "atmo serotta cycles is alone in a place in the
industry and has no peers. and they are not industry at all atmo."

I still think that you are exceptionally harsh on Serotta, especially as this is Serotta's Forum. The above thoughts could be expressed in a more subtle manner and you could still make your point.

Are you riding Sunday?

[e-RICHIE]

do the words steve pucci mean anything to folks here?
he has a 166 year career in the bike biz. if he can eek
out a living here, serotta can too atmo.

[manet]

..

[stevep]

all i know is i asked e-richie for a 10% discount on a bike...

he sent me a frame without dropouts.

[Ginger]

do the words steve pucci mean anything to folks here?
he has a 166 year career in the bike biz. if he can eek
out a living here, serotta can too atmo.

Wow, he only *looks* 104....

[stevep]

do the words steve pucci mean anything to folks here?
he has a 166 year career in the bike biz. if he can eek
out a living here, serotta can too atmo.

been a good scam too,
almost like work sometimes.

[e-RICHIE]

been a good scam too,
almost like work sometimes.
and think of all the chimeric twins you nailed along the way atmo.

[sevencyclist]

Concerning your comments on Serotta- Of course Serotta is at the top of the food chain. You are at top of the food chain. But you have a zillion year wait list and have entirely different business models. You are basically a business of one, I believe. Serotta is a small bicycle builder, but much larger than you with much more overhead, employees to consider, innovation with new technology, business investments....I just don't want hungry people to start picking their food at the second level of the food chain.


Sandy


I respectfully disagree. e-RICHIE probably has smaller overall overhead in absolute numbers, but he has much higher overhead cost in relation to per bike produced and per employee (1).

As a business, one person builder needs to have a higher profit margin per unit sold to pay for that overhead. Serotta, a small business, needs to have higher profit margin per bike compared to Cannondale; and Cannondale, needs to have a slightly higher profit margin per bike compared to Huffy/Motiv etc.

I do see your point. A bike at Costco selling for $129 could not afford to have a profit margin per bike larger than a Cannondale. A Costco bike buyer might just get the Cannondale if profit margin (or perceived overcharge) is the same. Similarly, you are feeling that as great as Serotta bikes are, those buyers might migrate to boutique framemakers if the profit margin per frame is as large as these boutique bike builders. Well, I think e-RICHIE is saying that Serotta, better than Seven and Litespeed, has kept up their end of the promise to make their bikes desirable (quality and prestiege), so they can afford to charge those profit margin without eroding the overall sales. But I think if Serotta grows too fast in number of frames produced, the production might suffer and can erode the overall Serotta image. Raising the price allows Serotta to curb that demand without suffering overall revenue drop.

Just my 2 cents. :beer:

[oracle]

why all the confusion?

[e-RICHIE]

why all the confusion?
because no one posting here or reading can get a date tonight atmo.

[oracle]

this is for the dateless among us (http://www.all-creatures.org/recipes/images/i-dates-medjool.jpg)

[e-RICHIE]

no mistaking it - a bulge atmo.

[Sandy]

I try my best to be couteous and respectful to people. I do not mean to be harsh to Serotta, especially on its own forum. I only started this thread to directly answer your question on another thread. I posted on this thread after my answer (2 posts for the answer) to directly respond to what others have said here. I think that I have been respectful to you and to Serotta.

I will post no more on this thread. If Serotta does not want me to ask questions or comment about their product, then I will not. If they don't want me to post at all, then I won't. I just gave some of my thoughts and perceptions relative to Serotta and its products, website, and escalating prices. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am sorry that I seem to have annoyed you. I know that I annoyed James and probably Brian too. Very sorry for that.

Let Serotta close the thread. That would work fine for me.


Sandy

[shinomaster]

this is for the dateless among us (http://www.all-creatures.org/recipes/images/i-dates-medjool.jpg)


TURKISH?

[swoop]

one as needed.

[93legendti]

I try my best to be couteous and respectful to people. I do not mean to be harsh to Serotta, especially on its own forum. I only started this thread to directly answer your question on another thread. I posted on this thread after my answer (2 posts for the answer) to directly respond to what others have said here. I think that I have been respectful to you and to Serotta.

I will post no more on this thread. If Serotta does not want me to ask questions or comment about their product, then I will not. If they don't want me to post at all, then I won't. I just gave some of my thoughts and perceptions relative to Serotta and its products, website, and escalating prices. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am sorry that I seem to have annoyed you. I know that I annoyed James and probably Brian too. Very sorry for that.

Let Serotta close the thread. That would work fine for me.


Sandy

Sandy, perhaps I was not as clear as I could be. What I meant was:

Remember what e-Ritchie said: "atmo serotta cycles is alone in a place in the
industry and has no peers. and they are not industry at all atmo."

I still think that you are too on Serotta. Your thoughts could be expressed in a more subtle manner and you could still make your point.

Are you riding Sunday?


So my suggestion has to do with with style, not substance. I am much too tired after chasing kids all day to be annoyed. I am going get on the trainer, 'cuz it is my first chance to ride. I may fall asleep while on the trainer. I hope not.