2008

[amigsinchi]

This note is to simply express that I feel Serotta has made a mistake with its new SE & GS series segmentation.

I know, I know that the new 2008 pricing and related topics have been discussed here at length over the past week or more (i've tried to keep-up but have a job), but my opinion is not related to price, rather the image that Serotta may create with the implementation of their new product line. I’m relatively new to this Forum, and Serotta, but can say that I have a bike (CDA) on order ask I type. As I became familiar and intrigued by Serotta I got to know a bike/brand that was what you wanted. That is to say, your own (custom) bike was the ultimate that one could be comfortable with and it was individual in so many ways, but it was a Serotta for you; the only label was “Serotta”. Okay, the model name is there of course and those who own a MeiVici may be elitist.

Now, whether you purchase a MeiVici, or a CDA, or in between you still succumb to a label of SE or GS. Why? Because of a paint scheme? ...A fork? Or is it about quality of frame work?

The beauty of a Serotta is the product and what you, and of course the hard working folks in Saratoga, make it.

To place people in SE or GS categories as members of those who are passionate enough to purchase a Serotta seems pointless. Instead is seems more like something Cartier or some other stuffy luxury brand would do.

I’ll finish by saying that I don’t assume that Serotta leadership had the aforementioned in mind when they created this year’s new strategy, but this is a perception of the often underestimated consumer/customer. Nor do I think that Serotta will fall to pieces and go out of business as a result....please, I hope not because I just invested in the product.

I do think it is an indirect flaw that confuses the buyer, e.g. the GS Series replaces four previous models but is applied across CDA, Legend, Ottrot & MeiVici? Maybe what I’m feeling is called cognitive dissonance...

Regards,
Anthony

[mflaherty37]

SE Surley Expensive
GS Good Sheit

[rounder]

Now, whether you purchase a MeiVici, or a CDA, or in between you still succumb to a label of SE or GS. Why? Because of a paint scheme? ...A fork? Or is it about quality of frame work?

The beauty of a Serotta is the product and what you, and of course the hard working folks in Saratoga, make it.

To place people in SE or GS categories as members of those who are passionate enough to purchase a Serotta seems pointless. Instead is seems more like something Cartier or some other stuffy luxury brand would do.

Regards,
Anthony

I agree with that. Serotta makes great bikes...why can't they just speak for themselves (ride one, you'll see). You see so many cars with badges on the back to help you understand what the driver bought in case you are interested in buying one too...4WD, V8, Turbo, AUTOMATIC, etc. Doesn't make me want to buy a car like that. I dunno maybe the SE and GS graphics are optional but seem unnecessary to me. I think a good bike should be clean looking. fwiw.

[Louis]

Anthony,

Are you saying that for you there is a difference between having say,

XYZ LS ($) vs XYZ GS ($$$)

and

ABC ($) vs LMN ($$$) ?

If so, it seems to me to be purely cosmetic. Everyone will know what is what.

Louis

[mflaherty37]

SE Super Edible
GS Glutin Sizematic

[Avispa]

This note is to simply express that I feel Serotta has made a mistake with its new SE & GS series segmentation.

Okay, the model name is there of course and those who own a MeiVici may be elitist....

I Agree with you bro... I wonder, however, would a MeiVici GS owner feel less of an elitist than a SE owner? How about those that have will remain with 2007 MeiVicis? It's still a damn expensive bike, you know....

Oh well, that's capitalism for you.... If a Ferrari or a Lamborghini ain't enough for ya, there is always a McLaren F1 GT available!

A! ;)

[swoop]

i think its a great move. not trying to be contrary... but the line seems much more navigable and cohesive to me.

[bnewt07]

Perhaps i've not really assimilated the new range (where are the full details?) and I've seen no UK pricing but my understanding is that this is purely a re-branding exercise and the bikes have not changed;

ie Meivicis GS is actually Attack
Ottrott GS is actually Nove etc etc

Am I wrong??

My only issue with what seems fairly logical (one product line - one frame material) is that GS and SE are rather crappy monikers with no meaning!

I may change my mind if the GS tag means a big price hike on the same bike as 2007 as I'm hoping to order my new (and first) Serotta in a month or so when i can find time to get to Cyclefit.

[djg]

i think its a great move. not trying to be contrary... but the line seems much more navigable and cohesive to me.

I'm inclined to agree -- fewer model names seems to make things more straightforward and if I don't know what "GS" and "SE" stand for, the variations between the two seem to be pretty consistent throughout the new line.

As for price, who knows? Serotta has its cost structure and its business plan and a hard earned rep for building first rate road bikes and supporting their customers and we'll see what happens. Personally, I'm pretty psyched that I'll soon be building up my HSG Ti prototype frame even if it is leaving the line, and I'm double psyched about what I paid for it.

[1centaur]

SE - Superior Engineering

GS - Generic Serotta

[Sandy]

I asked what "GS" and "SE" stand for. I was told that they don't stand for anything. As I think about it, I don't think that Serotta, understandably, would want us to have any perceptions about either which might give one name a negative/lesser feel to it. Serotta wants us to focus on the bikes and not the possible meanings and interpretations of "GS" or "SE". As I think about it a little more now, the "GS" and "SE" probably do stand for something specific, but we will probably never know.


Sandy

PS- Looking forward to seeing your HSG Ti prototype frame when it is build up.

My identical twin brother was a human prototype. He was so good that my parents decided to have me as the updated and remarkably improved version (4 minutes later). Perfection...well almost....... :)

[Sandy]

I have seen two references to MeiVici as elitist in this thread. I don't really understand that. I think the overwhelming majority of MeiVici owners buy a MeiVici because they know that it is a remarkable example of innovation and advanced technology in a carbon fiber bicycle, and it is a Serotta. They can afford one, so they decided to buy it. Why place a label on them or the bike?



:banana: Snobbish Sandy :banana:

[rwsaunders]

I always liked BMW's and Audi's model designation 3 series, 5 series, 7 series, A4, A6, A8; and found it simple to follow. Honda and Toyota have models such as Accord DS, LX, LXi, or Camry XL, XLE; very confusing in terms of understanding the model features, as well as the pricing structure. Sounds like Serotta is headed in the Japanese direction with the model designations.

My all time favorite is FIAT, though. No model designation needed. (Fix it again Tony). :cool:

[Fixed]

i think its a great move. not trying to be contrary... but the line seems much more navigable and cohesive to me.
+1






you cats see the csi is back with a steel fork ?




sorry I was daydreaming
cheers

[Dave B]

"With all due respect...and remember I am saying with all due respect."

Would anyone be unhappy with any of these bikes? If you were given any one of these bikes would you say :No I want the better one?"

If you have a problem with one being "less" Like if you get a Meivici GS, and are not as pleased with it because it doesn't say SE, then is the problem the bike or is it you.

If someone were to hand me a Meivici, you can put the entire greek alphabet on it and I am not going to think twice about if it is a decent bike or not.

[itsflantastic]

you cats see the csi is back with a steel fork ?

Yo Fixed,
That's MY bike!
I feel cool :cool:
Cheers,
Dan

[MarleyMon]

... navigable and cohesive...
sleek and streamlined - like their bikes

[deechee]

I do think it is an indirect flaw that confuses the buyer, e.g. the GS Series replaces four previous models but is applied across CDA, Legend, Ottrot & MeiVici? Maybe what I’m feeling is called cognitive dissonance...


I'm pretty sure its been said here before but I think the problem here is Serotta's weakness in communications. I'm starting to think this ES/GS whatever has more to do with offering everyone options that have always been available through custom demands/requests. If you look through the pictures and posts of this forum you will see tons of examples of customization that were never displayed on the webpage/literature. On the large scale, custom tandems, mountain bikes when they were not available, and on a smaller note, custom paint jobs, pump pegs, name engraving (before I saw it as an option) etc.

I don't think that these levels make a bike any less (or I'm just defending my bottom of the line CIII) but giving people more customization than they've ever had before. (or more than they know about.) I honestly couldn't care less about Ti dropouts or a 100gram less bike - for me it was about fit and I'd rather spend that extra 500$ on a coach than my bike.

A lot of the price threads have been the result of ill explained and hastily posted information. This is not the first time the web page has had a mix of old and new information (or the dreaded "x" box) and it makes for a good deal of confusion. When you post a note and send an email saying "2008 info available on Monday!" people are obviously going to look. When I suddenly saw the price of the Coeur D'acier from 1695$ (or whatever it was) to two levels between 2500/2900$ obviously that gives me a shock. A few days later its changed to 1895$ + the fork of your choice. How does this not confuse? As someone else posted, is it so hard to create an index2.html that ISN'T the main page? Let alone working *gasp* offline?

I think Serotta gets ahead of itself announcing news and following up. Another example that many of your know is about the new "soft goods". Serotta sends out an email regarding new clothing offering to take orders but then quickly re-negs mentioning manufacturing delays?

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

Moral of the story? As they say everywhere, for [better] information, contact your local Serotta dealer. For me that means a long distance call from work. Really convenient.

[soulspinner]

Could not have said it better.

[Serotta_James]

I'm confused about the confusion regarding the website.
The website is currently 2007 still except for the 2008 Teaser Mini Site.

Isn't it common for companies to offer sneak peaks of their new product before it's fully ready to be released? I thought this was pretty standard?

[JohnS]

GS- General Service
SE- Special Edition.

[davids]

The naming scheme works for me, both because it's a more streamlined, comprehensible way of organizing the line-up and because, with all due respect, who cares if my bike called a Nove or a Ottrott GS?

[Skrawny]

The naming scheme works for me, both because it's a more streamlined, comprehensible way of organizing the line-up
+1

-s

[Sandy]

I'm confused about the confusion regarding the website.
The website is currently 2007 still except for the 2008 Teaser Mini Site.

Isn't it common for companies to offer sneak peaks of their new product before it's fully ready to be released? I thought this was pretty standard?

1. The last time that I looked 2007 prices were on the website and 2008 bikes were for sale.

2. The pricing of the 2008 CDA with the ES and GS models, and the F3 fork with the all steel pricing as a package, and the F fork with the GS model,...., appeared on the website and disappeared. The last time I looked CDA pricing was back for the 2007 models.

3. Serotta said that we would see the 2008 model choices on Monday with pricing (??).

4. I believe that Serotta Pete said that would now happen in October.

5. There have been threads with numerous posts in which those from Serotta participated, discussing specifically 2008 models. Changes and escalation of 2008 prices, frameset pricing versus frame and fork purchasing with the possibility of Serotta selling framesets requiring purchase of the F3 fork and framesets with the new F fork, ..., were all heatedly discussed.

6. There is no 2008 pricing on the website. One must contact the dealers.

7. No explanation whatsoever on the website now about 2008 diffences in models, only photos of GS bikes and photos of ES bikes, no pricing of any kind.

How can you not see that there would be confusion about the website? It is obvious to me. Serotta allowed bits and pieces of info to appear on its website about 2008 models, including GS and SE models and pricing, took some of it off, has only 2007 pricing now, and photos only of 2008 models with no explanation of GS and ES model differences, no pricing, no explanation of the structure by which it will sell frames or framesets or forks or which forks, and you wonder about the confusion??

Serotta almost appears now as if it is not even sure itself as to how it wants to structure and sell its product. The website (non- message board) simply appears to be way behind in communication.

I will probably be purchasing an all steel 2008 CDA. I could have already ordered one. Where may I ask, on the website is there absolutely any info at all on the 2008 all steel CDA? GS CDA model? ES CDA model? F3 fork purchase with the all steel CDA? F fork for the all steel CDA? Frameset purchase versus frame purchase for the all steel CDA? Prices for the all steel CDA? Anything whatsoever about the 2008 all steel CDA?? Anything except a couple of photos? One must go to the mesage board and search for info.

Serotta should have determined precisely how it wanted to sell its 2008 product line- Agree within Serotta first. Structure the manner in which that was going to be done. When Serotta was prepared to release that info, then release it, but not piecemeal and don't take back some of what you release.

Perhaps Serotta is having trouble with keeping the website current, Then just say it. Perhaps there was confusion and lack of agreement at Serotta itself, as how to proceed, but to be confused about why some of us might be confused is actually confusing to me.

It is quite apparent to me that many at Serotta have been rather defensive and sensitive recently. For whatever reason, I am not sure, nor is it my business to know.


Confused Sandy

[darylb]

I like it. I would buy a Legend GS before I would buy a Concours.

[Sandy]

I like it. I would buy a Legend GS before I would buy a Concours.

Shows you what I understand is happening here. I think that if you buy a Legend GS, you are in essence buying a Concours.

Do you man that you (or someone) would buy the Legend GS before the Concours because of the name?


Sandy

[Serotta_James]

Sandy, you need to calm down about this.

We're rolling out our new product. It's cohesive and well-thought out. The simple fact is that our website is not yet updated. I can't explain how you've seen pricing for 08 models... I can't locate it anywhere no matter how hard I look in our site. The only 2008 info that's out there is the teaser mini site. We'll roll the rest out when we're ready. What's the big deal?

I've answered all the questions you've had, and I apologize for the delay in activating all the new site content. How have we been defensive?
If I appear sensitive it's because this is my life and livelihood that you're bashing here.

If you have questions, ask them. I always answer the best way I know how.

[Sandy]

Pricing was given for the 2008 CDA models in the Custom bike section of the website. It was there for a while and then it disappeared. People recacted to it. Some very unfavorably.

All I was doing was reponding to your comment about how one could be confused.

You made the comment, and I told you why I thought it was easy for some to be confused. Apparently not too well received.

I am in no way trying to bash your livelihood. No way at all.

I apologize for upsetting you. I will refrain from making many comments at all in the future. Very very sorry!


Sandy

[Serotta_James]

To everyone,

I still don't know how people saw 2008 prices on the website.
I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I'm just saying that it wasn't supposed to and whatever you saw wasn't totally accurate. Most likely a mistake that was later rectified.

Once again. If you have questions. Ask me. That's why I'm here.

[deechee]

I'm confused about the confusion regarding the website.
The website is currently 2007 still except for the 2008 Teaser Mini Site.

Isn't it common for companies to offer sneak peaks of their new product before it's fully ready to be released? I thought this was pretty standard?

Sure and EVERYONE loves info about new toys and thank you for being so open. How many other industries tell us of impending model and price changes? For instance I hate it how Asics keeps changing their models; I'll love one iteration and hate the next. But by the time the model has changed I can't find the older one anywhere.

My point though is, we're getting mixed messages. I'm just trying to show you my point of view. I'm honestly not trying to anger/annoy any of you. Just trying to get you to see what we do. This is what happens when you have a bunch of very keen, honestly interested individuals in your products.

9/12 Newsletter received: "Serotta's 2008 models will start rolling out of our Saratoga Springs factory next Monday, September 17." and "Complete 2008 model information will be available on serotta.com next week. Ask your local Serotta dealers when they will have the new models in stock." This isn't privvy at all as there is this post. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=32966) Looks like 9/17 is the time to check out new models!

9/18 many of us on the forum are surprised to see the CDA price (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=33173) increased to 2500/2900 depending on options. Seems like 2008 pricing. I also notice around this time a definite little "Tri/TT bike" appear on the left hand side of the web page with a broken "x" image appear. I'm thinking "coooooool".

You posted on 9/20 (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=33259) that the site would answer questions about the change in Ti options for 2008. Ok, so a week delay, Monday, 9/24.

Today's the 27th, and just quickly browsing I see SE/GS paint options and no more Fierte Ti which I thought was a 2007 model. So the site is still a mix up of 2007/2008 info.

I'm not buying a new Serotta anytime soon (unless there's some super deal like the 2007 blowouts available in my size). But it is nice to dream and know what is currently available for that day I suddenly get a magic bonus. On a more realistic note, I'm sure many of us appreciate the importance of the Serotta custom fit experience that we encourage our friends to feel the pure greatness of being one with the bike. Serotta is still very small name (I've probably seen a total of four in my area) and I think a lot of customers are repeats or brought in by word of mouth. In this day of age, instant gratification/product information is important to many and I just want Serotta to be clearer with what they announce and describe for their own good. That's all. Isn't that the point of this forum? Getting feedback from consumers?

I found some of the recent posts regarding 2008 pricing struck a nerve and people have gotten defensive over their jobs/social stature "elitist"/economics. Everyone has a right to an opinion and I think Serotta should embrace them rather than be defensive as to their reasoning. What difference does it make to Serotta that some of us would like to state our displeasure with the pricing model changes? As far as I can tell the market will still pay for Serotta's premium product so all the more power to you. Being defensive and challenging one's views (opinions about the Poway plant, outsourcing) have left a sour spot in my mouth.

I'll finish by saying I'm in the minority here. Aside from not being white, I'm considerably younger than most of you from the posts I've seen. ("I'm 50 and feeling great!") Most of you have grown up kids, a house, and decent financials. I've only been "working" for ~ 5 years, single and finding myself. I remember a time when users on this same forum would tell young track riders to get a CIII as it was the best bang for the buck for a racing bike. At almost 2K I don't think the Coeur D'acier is an affordable option for the beginning racer anymore. I hate to say this but Serotta feels like an old-man brand, like Cadillac. With these prices and model selection, it cements itself in this category. (Stock bikes are great, but now the only sub 2K option is the Fierte steel (no HSG steel), and we all know how sexy steel is these days.) If they're trying to reach into a younger market, a webpage overhaul, serious marketing and price changes need to happen. For the price of a new CDA I could pick up a Giant TCR carbon loaded and I know most of the younger guys I ride with wouldn't hesitate to pick to the Giant.

[Fixed]

Yo Fixed,
That's MY bike!
I feel cool :cool:
Cheers,
Dan


bro you are cool forgive me for this but it only took one look at how nice you had your fix setup to know that
I knew you were a hip cat imho
cheers

[Avispa]

....who cares if my bike called a Nove or a Ottrott GS?

Well, some people would, sort of... For instance, If I were to purchase a Lexus, I surely wouldn't want it called a Toyota LS "Luxury Sedan" or an Acura MDX called a Honda MDX. Perhaps, when it comes to bikes it is another story....

I would have branded the GS line, "The Saratoga Bikes" or something of that sort...

Therefore Saratoga Attack, Saratoga Nove, and so on....

But hey, I am just saying things and continuing the discussion!

A! ;)

[deechee]

Well, some people would, sort of... For instance, If I were to purchase a Lexus, I surely wouldn't want it called a Toyota LS "Luxury Sedan" or an Acura MDX called a Honda MDX. Perhaps, when it comes to bikes it is another story....
I would have branded the GS line, "The Saratoga Bikes" or something of that sort...
Therefore Saratoga Attack, Saratoga Nove, and so on....


ehehe I like that. Saratoga Legend hahaha. Much more memorable.
That said, its all about marketing right? There's no Lexus/Infiniti/Acura label in Japan. They're all sold under their Toyta/Nissan/Honda labels. Heck, even the Japanese emperor's cars (rolls royce like) is labeled... Century Royal... TOYOTA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXcGwmuSyH0) ...

[Avispa]

ehehe I like that. Saratoga Legend hahaha. Much more memorable.
That said, its all about marketing right? There's no Lexus/Infiniti/Acura label in Japan. They're all sold under their Toyta/Nissan/Honda labels. Heck, even the Japanese emperor's cars (rolls royce like) is labeled... Century Royal... TOYOTA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXcGwmuSyH0) ...

I am aware of the Toyota/Nissan/Honda labels, but we are in the US of A... ;)

BTW, the Legend IS the higher end bike; therefore it remains as Serotta Legend! The "other one", would be called the Saratoga Concours, no?

So there! :D

A!

[92degrees]

If all the model designations change again next year we won't have to worry about what GS and SE meant! :D

[93legendti]

Sandy, why do you consistently bust Serotta's chops? 1rst pricing, then the model names and now the website. Why?

[Avispa]

Sandy, why do you consistently bust Serotta's chops? 1rst pricing, then the model names and now the website. Why?

He is upset, he couldn't get a regular MeiVici.... Now he is really pissed, he won't be able to touch a MeiVici SE

A! :D

[darylb]

Shows you what I understand is happening here. I think that if you buy a Legend GS, you are in essence buying a Concours.

Do you man that you (or someone) would buy the Legend GS before the Concours because of the name?


Sandy


I am saying I would buy it because of the name. Its like buying Chorus over Centaur. We all know Centaur is great stuff and performance difference between the two is minimal at best but we buy the Chorus.

I would buy it because it says Legend which is the standard for Serotta Ti bikes. I guess marketing guys love me.

[Sandy]

Sandy, why do you consistently bust Serotta's chops? 1rst pricing, then the model names and now the website. Why?

I was about to answer your question herein, but I will take your question and start a thread and answer it there. I perceive that a few at Serotta are not happy with me too.


Sandy

[93legendti]

I was about to answer your question herein, but I will take your question and start a thread and answer it there. I perceive that a few at Serotta are not happy with me too.


Sandy

Sandy, I LOVE you. I do not understand you, but I am not unhappy with you.

[Brian Smith]

Sandy rocks, so to speak.
His words are backed by his actions.
If he supports Serotta, it's not blind support, it's heart-felt.

[MarleyMon]

...who cares if my bike called a Nove or a Ottrott GS?
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

[Climb01742]

Sandy rocks, so to speak.
His words are backed by his actions.
If he supports Serotta, it's not blind support, it's heart-felt.

+1 (and that's not just a plain old one, that's a super duper 1 SE. ;) )

[shinomaster]

I am aware of the Toyota/Nissan/Honda labels, but we are in the US of A... ;)

BTW, the Legend IS the higher end bike; therefore it remains as Serotta Legend! The "other one", would be called it the Saratoga Concours, no?

So there! :D

A!

If I could order a ti serotta cross bike for half the price that said Toyota on it I would...

[tch]

...My point though is, we're getting mixed messages. I'm just trying to show you my point of view..... .
I think DeeChee is onto some things. I have gone on the main site several times in the last two weeks. Many changes, and not all of them explainable. There is mention of new models and a 2008 teaser -- but no explanation of the SE/GS concept. Under the "custom road bikes" tab, models like the Nove and Concours are gone, but the model comparison chart is from 2007 and that refernces the Nove and Concours: does that mean those models are still available? And if so, why aren't they in the list of models? Prices don't line up. And several new main photos and features, which suggest a change of content, so I'm thinking the site is newly posted.

I, for one, would much rather see a complete, finished, correct website than one which mixes information from one year with the next. It's like being handed a composition which is in the middle of being revised. You don't know what is real and what will disappear.

I don't think I'm alone in this.

[sg8357]

II, for one, would much rather see a complete, finished, correct website than one which mixes information from one year with the next. It's like being handed a composition which is in the middle of being revised. You don't know what is real and what will disappear.

I don't think I'm alone in this.

IT industry practice is to have 3 web servers.
development = where the coders do their work.
staging = test site, the client(serotta) can look at the current dev version
and make comments for changes.
production = site the public sees

When Serotta signs off on the version on the staging site, it goes
live for the public. None of this partial new/old weirdness.

Scott G.

[davids]

IT industry practice is to have 3 web servers.
development = where the coders do their work.
staging = test site, the client(serotta) can look at the current dev version
and make comments for changes.
production = site the public sees

When Serotta signs off on the version on the staging site, it goes
live for the public. None of this partial new/old weirdness.

Scott G.
yes (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=392459&postcount=4)

[Ahneida Ride]

Sandy rocks, so to speak.
His words are backed by his actions.
If he supports Serotta, it's not blind support, it's heart-felt.


SANDY ROCKS !!!!

[amigsinchi]

Sandy is correct. I also experienced the same blip in the site one evening a couple weeks back where all the new pricing was posted, new colors options and info on SE vs GS.

[benb]

Yah and the bikes will all double in price if Serotta gets a "real" IT/Development team.

It still shouldn't be pushed out gradually though.. it's like they've got a High School kid doing it.

[Serotta_James]

it's like they've got a High School kid doing it.

!