Frame/builder dilemma

[82Picchio]

Please help me in this ordeal.

I ordered a custom frame. It arrived last week. Upon inspection, I discovered a bulge in the seat tube just below the seat lug. I returned the frame. The builder says the bulge occurred during the reaming, that it is structurally inconsequential, and he is repairing and repainting the frame at his expense.

Assuming he's correct and the defect is structurally inconsequential, I will be an owner of a repaired frame. I paid for a pristine, unrepaired frame. In practical terms, it does not make sense to ask for a brand new frame and I don't think it's fair to have him build a new one. I do think it is fair to ask him to rebate a portion of the price of the frame though.

What thinks the group?

[JohnS]

How is he repairing it?

[82Picchio]

I believe he's rolling it out. The initial question assumes that repair works as intended.

[e-RICHIE]

you signed on and this is your first post?
welcome.
add a pic.
it evens the playing field and lets folks see what you see atmo.

[J.Greene]

What thinks the group?

I'm suspicious since this is your first post.

with that said....the story does not quite add up to me.

JG

[Climb01742]

in framebuilding, what is "reaming"? (thanks, i know the meaning in other contexts. :rolleyes: )

[82Picchio]

I didn't take a picture. Whether in J. Greene's opinion the story adds up or not, them's the facts. And that this is my first post is of little consequence. I've told you all the facts. I intentionally omitted the builder's name and, FWIW, I don't believe he visits this forum.

[82Picchio]

in framebuilding, what is "reaming"? (thanks, i know the meaning in other contexts. :rolleyes: )

I believe he was removing slag from the seat tube.

[e-RICHIE]

in framebuilding, what is "reaming"? (thanks, i know the meaning in other contexts. :rolleyes: )
reaming is when you ream the seat tube with a reamer.
some folks get the pipes so hot that they distort and then
a seatpost goes in fakaka (that's yiddish for something).
the reamer remedies the fakakaness atmo.

[L84dinr]

so, is reaming SOP, or a technique for someone who foobared a weld/braze etc...

[dave1215]

reaming is when you ream the seat tube with a reamer.
some folks get the pipes so hot that they distort and then
a seatpost goes in fakaka (that's yiddish for something).
the reamer remedies the fakakaness atmo.


this e-richie guy is so funny :D

if this framebuilding thing doesn't work out for him, he could write a sitcom or something :beer:

sometimes i think i log on just to follow his posts :)

[Too Tall]

Tell me why you ordered the frame in the first place. I'm am hoping because you believed in the person crafting your frame. Keep your faith strong bruddah or life begins to look just that much dimmer m'kay?

Were it my dealio and it ain't I'd for sure trust my guy to do right. Sounds like he stepped right up, correct?

[93legendti]

reaming is when you ream the seat tube with a reamer.
some folks get the pipes so hot that they distort and then
a seatpost goes in fakaka (that's yiddish for something).
the reamer remedies the fakakaness atmo.

farkakt: lousy; screwed up; washed up; (vulg., ****ty, crappy, full of ****; ****ed (vulg.)

http://www.yiddishdictionaryonline.com/

[93legendti]

this e-richie guy is so funny :D

if this framebuilding thing doesn't work out for him, he could write a sitcom or something :beer:

sometimes i think i log on just to follow his posts :)

What a great idea. E-R could play himself, he could have 3 friends who are always there preventing him from working and mooching his food.

[itsflantastic]

every now and again, the fed ex dude could show up with cartons and cartons of twizzlers

[e-RICHIE]

every now and again, the fed ex dude could show up with cartons and cartons of twizzlers
dude dude dude looks like a lady atmo -

http://www.toddhazlewood.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/twizzlers.jpg

[82Picchio]

Tell me why you ordered the frame in the first place. I'm am hoping because you believed in the person crafting your frame. Keep your faith strong bruddah or life begins to look just that much dimmer m'kay?

Were it my dealio and it ain't I'd for sure trust my guy to do right. Sounds like he stepped right up, correct?

Absolutely, he stepped right up. It's not that I don't trust his repair skills, but that I paid for a pristine frame and will own a repaired one. Knowing it bugs me.

[e-RICHIE]

...but that I paid for a pristine frame and will own a repaired one. Knowing it bugs me.
so get a new one atmo?

[pdbrye]

dude dude dude looks like a lady atmo -

http://www.toddhazlewood.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/twizzlers.jpg

...and NO, I do not mean the twizzlers. :D

[J.Greene]

Absolutely, he stepped right up. It's not that I don't trust his repair skills, but that I paid for a pristine frame and will own a repaired one. Knowing it bugs me.

so you have an external bulge that was caused by an internal mechanical action? My statement about how it does not add up reflects my limited knowledge about how one might repair a bulged ST. What method did the builder use to join the tubes?

JG

[jsak]

How would you feel if the builder noticed it and did the exact same fix before he sent it to you? You wouldn't know about it and would have gotten the exact same bike in the end.

If this builder is willing to step up and fix it for you, I think you should be happy that he didn't give you a bunch of BS and just send the bike back.

[DfCas]

"I do think it is fair to ask him to rebate a portion of the price of the frame though."

I disagree with this statement. If a repaired frame does not satisfy you,then you should accept a new frame. The price is the price in my free opinion (which is worth what it cost).

[cadence90]

I think a new frame or a full refund is absolutely in order.

According to my understanding of the story, the builder did not even do a cursory check of his own work prior to shipping, right? That's a red flag right there, and to me would be an indication that there could be other issues.

[82Picchio]

"I do think it is fair to ask him to rebate a portion of the price of the frame though."

I disagree with this statement. If a repaired frame does not satisfy you,then you should accept a new frame. The price is the price in my free opinion (which is worth what it cost).

I have not asked for and he has not offered a free frame. And if the fact that the repaired frame is as sound structurally and rides the same as a new one I don't feel it's fair to ask for a new frame. Therefore, asking for a new frame does not make economic sense: It would cost more in materials and labor to build a new frame than to compensate me a couple hundred bucks for accepting a repaired one.

[e-RICHIE]

Therefore, asking for a new frame does not make economic sense: It would cost more in materials and labor to build a new frame than to compensate me a couple hundred bucks for accepting a repaired one.
but if you post that and also wrote this earlier:
"...but that I paid for a pristine frame and will own a repaired one. Knowing it bugs me."
then what is the issue here atmo?

[82Picchio]

How would you feel if the builder noticed it and did the exact same fix before he sent it to you? You wouldn't know about it and would have gotten the exact same bike in the end.

If this builder is willing to step up and fix it for you, I think you should be happy that he didn't give you a bunch of BS and just send the bike back.

I'd be blissfully ignorant of the flaw, of course. But I disagree with your sentiment that I should be merely happy that the builder is not a jerk (not to be confused with The Jerk). Yes, I am happy the builder is not a jerk. However, whether I know about or not, I will not have received what I paid for, a pristine frame that did not need to undergo repair. And any builder with common sense is be smart enough not to give a customer a bunch of BS and send the bike back. The world of custom frame builders and their clients is small enough that a mention of a problem dealt with in the way you suggested would cost him much in lost future business from adverse publicity that kind of attitude would have generated.

[David Kirk]

My from experience bulging from reaming is very rare. If it does happen it's usually a spiral ridge caused from a chip getting caught under the reamer blade and grinding it's way along.

It's a bit silly to throw out a theory when I haven't seen the frame but it's much more likely it was caused by heat. If it's a bulge that more or less follows the lug line and it rounded in nature it comes most of the time from heat. When the lug and the tube are heated they expand at different rates. If the tube is heated before the lug the tube gets big but the lug doesn't and the tube becomes choked. It then expands in anyway it can and it bulges right below the lug.

So was does the bulge look like?

Dave

[82Picchio]

but if you post that and also wrote this earlier:
"...but that I paid for a pristine frame and will own a repaired one. Knowing it bugs me."
then what is the issue here atmo?

The issue is I want that couple of hundred bucks. :) That was the point of the original post and I wanted to know what the forum thinks. :crap:

[e-RICHIE]

The issue is I want that couple of hundred bucks. :) That was the point of the original post and I wanted to know what the forum thinks. :crap:
you should get more than that.
you need a good, angry, hungry jewish lawyer atmo.

[e-RICHIE]

So was does the bulge look like?

Dave
atmo -

http://www.foodtv.ca/blog/photos/catherine_jheon/images/65/original.aspx

[SoCalSteve]

you should get more than that.
you need a good, angry, hungry jewish lawyer atmo.

I have a cousin..Oy!


Steve

[82Picchio]

So was does the bulge look like?

Dave

It's about the size of a grain of oatmeal and bulges out about 1mm. You can feel it from inside the tube, which is why the builder thinks something got caught inside the tube during the reaming.

[e-RICHIE]

...which is why the builder thinks something got caught inside the tube during the reaming.
make sure the word stressreiser* isn't used in a sentence atmo.









* german for stress riser

[C5 Snowboarder]

Absolutely, he stepped right up. It's not that I don't trust his repair skills, but that I paid for a pristine frame and will own a repaired one. Knowing it bugs me.

It would bug me too. Just like a new car if you arrive to pick it up and find a big deep scratch or dent along the door -- they pound it out , repaint your left side of your new car , you feel like you did not buy a new car anymore.
I see 2 choices here:
1. ask for your money back and go elsewhere
2. accept the repaired frame.


I am going to guess here and say the reamer might have hit a seam or hard spot or a loose bit of material inside the tube and forced out the the thin wall. I would be nervous of how it is going to be or was repaired due to the "work hardening" of the material and then a second operation of reaming again where you end up wiith very thin material in the repaired area - who knows what thickness is left in there? Proceed with caution.

[thejen12]

It's about the size of a grain of oatmeal and bulges out about 1mm. You can feel it from inside the tube, which is why the builder thinks something got caught inside the tube during the reaming.
Sounds like character. Proof that it's a unique, hand-built frame. Like the mole on a model's cheek that makes the rest of her look so beautiful. :)

Jenn

[David Kirk]

atmo -

http://www.foodtv.ca/blog/photos/catherine_jheon/images/65/original.aspx

I don't see a problem with that.

Dave

[82Picchio]

I don't see a problem with that.

Dave
Though tempting, that's not the kind of riding I had in mind...

[Len J]

I didn't take a picture. Whether in J. Greene's opinion the story adds up or not, them's the facts. And that this is my first post is of little consequence. I've told you all the facts. I intentionally omitted the builder's name and, FWIW, I don't believe he visits this forum.

IMO, you either trust the builder or you don't. If Dave or Richie told me about this and that the frame would be as fit for use as before, and the only cost was time, I'd say "Thanks for the heads up!, Let me know when it gets back from paint"....and wouldn't give it another thought.

If OTOH, I had no trust in the builder, I would ask for my money back......no fix or replacement would be satisfactory.

Trying to turn this into a discount doesn't work for me.......YMMV.

Len

[e-RICHIE]

Though tempting, that's not the kind of riding I had in mind...
hey - you're funny.
let's have lunch atmo.

[cadence90]

The issue is I want that couple of hundred bucks. :) That was the point of the original post and I wanted to know what the forum thinks. :crap:
I thought you wanted a new, pristine, unrepaired frame? :confused:

"Pristine, "couple hundred bucks", forum thoughts. Pick one." - Kiefer Bonetrader

[cpg]

It's most likely a heat bulge. Reaming rarely does that and if it does rolling out the bulge will only make the problem worse. Most likely the builder will end up replacing the seat tube. If that's the case I don't think the builder is obligated to offering a discount. It might be nice of the builder though.

Curt

[e-RICHIE]

It's most likely a heat bulge. Reaming rarely does that and if it does rolling out the bulge will only make the problem worse. Most likely the builder will end up replacing the seat tube. If that's the case I don't think the builder is obligated to offering a discount. It might be nice of the builder though.

Curt
ackkkkkkkkk you don't wanna new frame that had a
seat tube brazed in a second time atmo. that's a
frame repair. i suspect the cat will roll it out.

[72gmc]

the request for money back is the one thing I don't agree with. Either trust the builder's repair work, or trust the builder's brand new work.

[cpg]

Rolling it out is less problematic than replacement? I beg to differ.

Curt

[e-RICHIE]

Rolling it out is less problematic than replacement? I beg to differ.

Curt
hey i wouldn't sanction that either.
'was only saying that i suspect that's plan b atmo.

[82Picchio]

I neglected to mention that the lug is silver brazed. I've been led to understand this may affect opinions re whether this is a heat bulge.

[I Want Sachs?]

imperfection is perfection

[Steve Hampsten]

imperfection is perfection

Exactly.

My take is that when you sign up for a frame from a builder you're signing up not so much for the end result as for the entire process - and sometimes things go sideways. So he has to go back and fix a goober - so what? And now you're making the conversation be about money, right? You make how much a year? And if your builder makes more than $50K he is one of the lucky few. In fixing this goober your guy has just taken a huge bath and is probably making little or no profit on this transaction - and you want take the final $200 from his wallet 'cause it will make you feel "better" about your new frame.

Hoo boy. Good luck with that. No sympathy here.

[tch]

Exactly.

My take is that when you sign up for a frame from a builder you're signing up not so much for the end result as for the entire process - and sometimes things go sideways. So he has to go back and fix a goober - so what? And now you're making the conversation be about money, right? You make how much a year? And if your builder makes more than $50K he is one of the lucky few. In fixing this goober your guy has just taken a huge bath and is probably making little or no profit on this transaction - and you want take the final $200 from his wallet 'cause it will make you feel "better" about your new frame.

Hoo boy. Good luck with that. No sympathy here.
I have waited a while to offer my thoughts....and then here's Steve with them exactly ahead of me.
In addition, I think you have to think about the fact that a pristine frame will stay pristine....about 2 days. Seriously, unless there's a question about structural integrity (and I've heard none of that here so far), I think of it EXACTLY like that first scratch on the new car. Finallly, I can breath a sigh of relief and stop being so neurotic about appearances.
Sorry if that's not what you want to hear.

[82Picchio]

Steve, you make a fair point about money and greed. Money aside, however, we don't know how serious a goober it is. All I have to go on is an opinion of the builder who is most interested in seeing this problem go away. I daresay a potentially biased opinion. Whether I get a rebate or not, it will still feel like I didn't get what I thought I was buying. I doubt that when you fork over four figures that it's OK with you when you get less for your money than what you expected. And if it's OK with you when it happens to you, it's not OK with me. It seriously bums me out.

So now that you've put me on the spot with your comment, let me turn the tables: what would you do if that happened to one of your bikes and a customer came to you asking for a new frame?

[Fixed]

bro it's a standard machinist tool http://www.occupationalinfo.org/70/709684058.html
cheers :beer:

[cadence90]

imperfection is perfection
Yeah, right.

Tell that to me after I received my frame from a very well-known custom builder, trusted the reputation, blamed myself when my neck/back hurt for 3 years no matter what I tried, and then it turned out that the head tube was + 1.5 degrees off.... :rolleyes: :no: :confused:

Precision is precision imho. Can't do it: don't claim you can.

Maybe I'm not getting it here, but I sure don't understand the aspects of this thread "blaming" the OP and "defending" the builder. I wouldn't accept a seat bulge, as a client. I wouldn't ship a seat bulge, as a builder. Am I wrong? Would any builder here do that? Would Serotta?

I do think that to make the issue about saving a "couple of hundred bucks" is completely off the mark. I don't get that part either.

[e-RICHIE]

i think the jury is out wrt this being a cosmetic issue atmo.
from what i read, it's a technical, not aesthetic. and afaik,
it's not made better by rolling it out, since that only deals
with the exterior. as with tch-issimo, sorry if that's not what
you want to hear.

[Spicoli]

This is why places have blem and seconds deals! Have him make you a new frame and he can sell it "as is" to some lucky informed customer who knows what he is getting up front? That to me works and when I built stuff for a living thats what I would do. :cool:

[cadence90]

i think the jury is out wrt this being a cosmetic issue atmo.
from what i read, it's a technical, not aesthetic. and afaik,
it's not made better by rolling it out, since that only deals
with the exterior. as with tch-issimo, sorry if that's not what
you want to hear.
Are talking to me?
If so, sorry, I don't understand.

If it is purely a cosmetic issue, then the deal is between buyer/builder as far as I'm concerned.
If it is a technical issue, I would hope that a free repair or new frame would be the builder's stance, given that if it is a technical issue it should never have been shipped in the first place.
No?

[swoop]

i think its about your perception of his standard of quality when you made the purchase. if this is a dude who's frames are artisan and wabi sabi and this blem falls within that normal expectation of the body of work he's had in the past... i think its reasonable to expect some blems. it is a hand made unique object.
on the other hand.. if this guys work is artisan and flawless... and this has a cosmetic issue.. its outside of the standard of his work and he's got to make you right. just as you've got make him right too.

you know?

his previous work sets a standard he has to live up to because you bought into that standard.

[Steelhead]

I'd be blissfully ignorant of the flaw, of course. But I disagree with your sentiment that I should be merely happy that the builder is not a jerk (not to be confused with The Jerk). Yes, I am happy the builder is not a jerk. However, whether I know about or not, I will not have received what I paid for, a pristine frame that did not need to undergo repair. And any builder with common sense is be smart enough not to give a customer a bunch of BS and send the bike back. The world of custom frame builders and their clients is small enough that a mention of a problem dealt with in the way you suggested would cost him much in lost future business from adverse publicity that kind of attitude would have generated.


I am surprised the builder didn't catch the flaw in his handling of the frame - and that it left his shop with a visible flaw. Are you sure you trust this guy?

Also - what if he had caught it and then repaired it in the same way he is telling you he would repair it - and you never knew about.....would it be any less "pristine" in that sense? This is a funny one. ATMO

[e-RICHIE]

Are talking to me?
If so, sorry, I don't understand.

If it is purely a cosmetic issue, then the deal is between buyer/builder as far as I'm concerned.
If it is a technical issue, I would hope that a free repair or new frame would be the builder's stance, given that if it is a technical issue it should never have been shipped in the first place.
No?
??????
i was posting to the OP and the thread.

[cadence90]

??????
i was posting to the OP and the thread.
Sorrrry.
I can't follow the threaded/non-threaded/hybrid/linear replies anymore.

[e-RICHIE]

Sorrrry.
I can't follow the threaded/non-threaded/hybrid/linear replies anymore.
threaded is for dodo's atmo.
my user CP is set to show all texts chronologically.

[cadence90]

threaded is for dodo's atmo.
my user CP is set to show all texts chronologically.
That's what I use: linear.
But, since your post followed mine, it felt like there was a bulge in the chronology. I was just trying to roll it out.

[Fixed]

i think its about your perception of his standard of quality when you made the purchase. if this is a dude who's frames are artisan and wabi sabi and this blem falls within that normal expectation of the body of work he's had in the past... i think its reasonable to expect some blems. it is a hand made unique object.
on the other hand.. if this guys work is artisan and flawless... and this has a cosmetic issue.. its outside of the standard of his work and he's got to make you right. just as you've got make him right too.

you know?

his previous work sets a standard he has to live up to because you bought into that standard.
bro did you go to law school too ? that is a good argument imho
cheeers :beer:
cheers

[big shanty]

This is a tough one. Even if the builder is a bonehead, you have to respect the time put into the frame. I would not expect any refund. You know it will bother you regardless of how the situation is rectified (short of a brand-new frame)....so ride it hard, do everything in your power to make the bike snap in half, and when the time comes to commission your next custom bike, go to somebody with an a reputation for great quality control. It sucks, but you get a lesson and a nice rideable bike out of the deal.

[rodcad]

I'd get my money back or have a new frame made, period. No excuse for a probable $2000 frame to have flaws of this magnitude. I'd really have my doubts about the builder if he knowingly sent it out that way and lean towards getting my money back.

[Fixed]

bro i don't think you are goin to get money back wait and see what comes back you might even love it ..
imho cheers

[J.Greene]

bro i don't think you are goin to get money back wait and see what comes back you might even love it ..
imho cheers

I'm in this camp.

Putting myself in the builders shoes I'd really appreciate it and you if you'd give me the chance to make it right.

JG

[fstrthnu]

I'm in this camp.

Putting myself in the builders shoes I'd really appreciate it and you if you'd give me the chance to make it right.

JG

+1. Go easy on the guy. Framebuilders file their fingers off to make you happy. Let him give you what he intended to in the first place... I'll bet it will make you feel better about the bike in the long run anyways. Good Karma.

[cadence90]

+1. Go easy on the guy. Framebuilders file their fingers off to make you happy. Let him give you what he intended to in the first place... I'll bet it will make you feel better about the bike in the long run anyways. Good Karma.
Sure.
As long as a fair warranty also comes stuffed in the seat tube when the frame ships back.

[DarrenCT]

my bike is steeling my beer. i need a refund from the damn builder.
-d

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7506/p1000790bl3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[DarrenCT]

hmm did i just type steel? apparently this 9% beer is working...

[J.Greene]

I am suprised sometimes how many guys over at the lunch table have a website, a few customers, and full tools who still ask questions about alignment and other framebuilding basics. I think it pays to really search out who your framebuilder is, or assume the risks.

JG

[e-RICHIE]

okay - so it begs the question, how far below the lug edge
was the bulge atmo? if the answer is in the thread, eff me
for not seeing it. i'm trying to imagine how this can happen.

[vaxn8r]

I'd get my money back or have a new frame made, period. No excuse for a probable $2000 frame to have flaws of this magnitude. I'd really have my doubts about the builder if he knowingly sent it out that way and lean towards getting my money back.
Wow that's high expectations. Nothing wrong with them but people are people and everybody misses things sometimes. I know of a pretty famous builder and then a famous painter which both missed the fact that there was no rear derailleur braze on. It happens. It was fixed. Move on.

[fstrthnu]

Sure.
As long as a fair warranty also comes stuffed in the seat tube when the frame ships back.

With all due respect, the definition of the word "fair" as it pertains to this isolated incident, is what this thread is about.

Everything has happened after the fact leaving no room for distinct breaches of arrangement. In my opinion if the builder had a warranty protocol initially all of this would have never been an issue beyond the fact that the frame came with a defect.

[I Want Sachs?]

I am suprised sometimes how many guys over at the lunch table have a website, a few customers, and full tools who still ask questions about alignment and other framebuilding basics. I think it pays to really search out who your framebuilder is, or assume the risks.

JG

One problem with custom handbuilt bike is that we are impressed by the beauty of the welds/lugs/braze (such as we do at NAHMBS), but have no idea how the bike will actually ride. This is why many of us come to this forum to seek experience of others. Someone like Sachs, Weigle have a consistent reputation for a certain type of ride, but I am not sure about some of the newer guys. Their bikes might look nice, but they are still trying to learn and define their ride characteristic.

With Serotta, at least you can get what you ask for.

[I Want Sachs?]

I know of a pretty famous builder and then a famous painter which both missed the fact that there was no rear derailleur braze on. It happens. It was fixed. Move on.

Why would a fixed gear bike need a rear deraileur braze on? :beer:

[cadence90]

With all due respect, the definition of the word "fair" as it pertains to this isolated incident, is what this thread is about.

Everything has happened after the fact leaving no room for distinct breaches of arrangement. In my opinion if the builder had a warranty protocol initially all of this would have never been an issue beyond the fact that the frame came with a defect.
Just about everything in this thread is conjecture.
We don't know the builder.
We don't know if the incident is isolated.
We don't know if a warranty was/is in place or not.

So, you're right: if the builder is a hack, then there'e not much to be done. But if the builder is a pro, the work should be corrected free of charge. No discounts. No deals. Just good work. A "defective" frame should have never left the shop in the first place.

[fstrthnu]

A "defective" frame should have never left the shop in the first place.

Amen.

[Kahuna]

Agreed. Doesn't look like a grain of oatmeal either.

I don't see a problem with that.

Dave

[72gmc]

philosophical question: are e-richie's nigella fantasies off topic, or is it the other topics that are off?

[cadence90]

philosophical question: are e-richie's nigella fantasies off topic, or is it the other topics that are off?
I assume e-R would say that when Nigella is the topic, the more off the better.... ;)

[Len J]

A "defective" frame should have never left the shop in the first place.


from the OP...the frame has never left the shop. The builder alerted the OP that he was going to fix the error and have the frame repainted. Good for him.

As I said below........Either the OP trusts the builder or he doesn't. If he trusts him.....enjoy the bike. If he doesn't, he will never be happy.

Len

[Sir Maldoror]

You should try to work with the builder in question. Do everything short of a reach around to show you care.

Sir Maldoror

[cadence90]

from the OP...the frame has never left the shop. The builder alerted the OP that he was going to fix the error and have the frame repainted. Good for him.

As I said below........Either the OP trusts the builder or he doesn't. If he trusts him.....enjoy the bike. If he doesn't, he will never be happy.

Len
from Post #1:
"I ordered a custom frame. It arrived last week. Upon inspection, I discovered a bulge in the seat tube just below the seat lug. I returned the frame."

Etc.

[Len J]

from Post #1:
"I ordered a custom frame. It arrived last week. Upon inspection, I discovered a bulge in the seat tube just below the seat lug. I returned the frame."

Etc.

I'm an idiot. :crap:

Len

[Peter P.]

ALL people make mistakes; even highly reputed framebuilders. It's entirely possible he didn't see the bulge.

What DOES matter is HOW he handles your complaint. If he tries to qualify the flaw, justify the mistake, or pooh-pooh it away in any form and tries to dissuade you from having the frame fixed/replaced, I'd be leery of doing future business with him.

The idea of giving you a rebate of some sort smells of greed.

His best bet would be to offer you a new frame, allowing you to ride the current frame until the replacement is ready. Then he can take the defective frame, repair it, and sell it at a discount. He HAS to eat some of the profit; it's the price of his mistake and the price of doing business. It's also a valuable lesson for him; the price is his tuition.

A sincere apology and an expedited repair should suffice.

Your tale of woe however, is nothing compared to what I went through.

I had a custom frame fail at the base of the seat tube. I sent it in for repair. I even paid for the repaint. When it came back, I couldn't install the front deraillleur because the bottle cage boss was right where the clamp needed to be! I sent it back.

It came back repaired again. This time, not only could I see primer through the paint, I couldn't clamp the front derailleur around the seat tube! This builder ovalizes his seat tube near the BB junction and his ovalizing job went too far up the tube. He tried to "fix" the problem by offering to send me an old style, Suntour front derailleur which used a flexible band clamp for mounting. No way. Back it went a third time.

I get it back and I ride it for about 3 years. Then I get hit by a car and need the frame repaired and repainted. This time I go to a different builder. When he stripped the frame, he discovered a "patch" of brazing material on the underside of the downtube. His deduction was, the builder dented the frame and filled the dent in with braze. All this from a builder with a reputable name and 25 years in business.

[JohnS]

But I disagree with your sentiment that I should be merely happy that the builder is not a jerk (not to be confused with The Jerk). Hmmm. First post and he already knows who the Jerk is!?!?!?

[e-RICHIE]

Hmmm. First post and he already knows who the Jerk is!?!?!?
sleuth atmo!

[J.Greene]

the builder dented the frame and filled the dent in with braze. All this from a builder with a reputable name and 25 years in business.

Maybe it was the painter? Most painters braze, or have someone who does.

JG

[Ginger]

When he stripped the frame, he discovered a "patch" of brazing material on the underside of the downtube.

A buddy of mine repairs bikes, strips them down, fixes them, has them repainted. You wouldn't believe the amount of filler that gets put onto even commercial frames. Huge holes in fillets, patches of braze and even bondo (of course, an older used frame might go through several owners with their own demons...) So that thought of a "pristine" new bike is sort of um...a little flawed. You can't see under paint.

(Unless you're the Jerk and you had e-richie build a naked frame...)

[Louis]

my bike is steeling my beer. i need a refund

Darren, that bike is letting you off easy.

If it had instead taken the "La Fin du Monde" then I would really have been PO'd...

[gt6267a]

If I get you, what it smells like to me is that if the thing is repaired than you feel like you are getting a used product but are paying for new. Therefore, if he drops his price a few heads of cabbage you will feel ok paying used prices for used goods.

That is a dangerous argument. 200 bits of lettuce won't put your emotions smooth with used-land. That's more of a 20+ % off deal and I'm guessing this isn't a $1k rig or we wouldn't be having this discussion. I like swoops argument that there are envelopes of imperfection expected in the craft world, but if this was within the bounds of kosher for this builder, once again, this discussion wouldn't be happening.

I think your best bet is get the cat on the phone and learn more about the problem, the fix, and your comfort level. If he's really just buffing something out than it's like the guys just not done yet. When you are getting off the phone remind him that you wanted some cool stripes or flames or whatever gets your motor twirling and call it day. If this is the real deal replacing tubes and such ... it's gut check time. Figure out what will satisfy your emotions, not logic. This has nothing to do with logic. And if I might add one more thing, do run the emotional argument through some filter before going to the mattresses. No need to burn a bridge instead of building an army. The guy will probably be reasonable if you are. reasonable could be a new frame but get there reasonably.

[Steve Hampsten]

grant petersen had an article in a recent rivendell reader describing exactly the same bulge the OP describes

grant regards this bulge as acceptable and, after reading his description, i could agree with him

any builders care to comment?

to reply to any earlier question by the OP: yes, i have been in a few situations where the build has become a bad dream, for one reason or another. i generally, but not always, offer a refund. i don't think i've been taken up on it but i do have a couple of extra frames and forks to look at - meaning: second frames have been built.

for a heat bulge i'd offer you $200 to go away - izzat fair? i've seen much worse blems - not on my frames, of course. but that's life: try making something entirely by hand. now do it perfectly, every time. and eat every mistake, forever. easy, huh?

rinse, lather, repeat

[goonster]

grant petersen had an article in a recent rivendell reader describing exactly the same bulge the OP describes

grant regards this bulge as acceptable and, after reading his description, i could agree with him

If I remember correctly, those comments referred to production bikes retailing somewhere around $1200 complete.

A lot of this is dependent on the customer's expectations, and therefore no universal standard can be applied, sez me.

[cadence90]

snip
to reply to any earlier question by the OP: yes, i have been in a few situations where the build has become a bad dream, for one reason or another. i generally, but not always, offer a refund. i don't think i've been taken up on it but i do have a couple of extra frames and forks to look at - meaning: second frames have been built.
snip
I know that there are a few (thankfully not many) customers my friend Jim Kish gladly offers refunds to.... ;)

[Steve Hampsten]

If I remember correctly, those comments referred to production bikes retailing somewhere around $1200 complete.

good point: quickbeam singlespeed, if memory serves, taiwan-built

so where lies the price curve of acceptability?

(and filler in main tubes is "normal" - sorry. stuff gets dented. those who like laws or sausage should watch neither being made...if you catch my drift)

[swoop]

never ask your girl about the guys she loved before you. especially if she shows a vigorous fondness for watching NBA on tv and refers to players by their first names.

*just thinking out loud.

[Steve Hampsten]

i'm having a "best in show" moment...

[TACSTS]

I've been in your shoes before, I know the strange mix of emotions a custom frame that is messed up can bring. You waited so long and now something isn't just so?!!? Sounds like you've got a good builder, as did I. Let them fix it they'll do right in the end. Don't worry about it not being pristine, he's going to repaint it, it'll be a *new* bike. Or as "new" as anything made from millions of year old iron ore dug from some hole in the ground can be. :cool:

Could be worse -> my chainrings hit the chainstays! I had the same bitterness, if you will, as you are experiencing for a bit, but in the end everything was made right and it's the bike I go to 9/10 times these days.

Good luck and remember you're lucky to worry about such trivial things as custom bikes!

Post a pic when you get it fixed and built up!

[cpg]

Like Richie asked, does the bulge run parallel to the lug edge? If so, it's a heat bulge. If it's not roughly parallel to the lug edge it's due to reaming. Either way, it's problematic. If the frame is silver brazed a heat bulge should never have happened in theory. The silver flows at a temperature lower than the temperature that steel starts to deform. With that said, a heat bulge can happen during silver brazing if the brazer screws up due to inexperience. My vote is this is what happened. If it happened during reaming, this would mean there was a bunch of heat distortion and/or operator error. Either way you slice that one it's a sign of inexperience. To properly repair this the seat tube will need to be replaced. Rolling it out will lead to more problems in the future. With that said, replacing a seat tube is the second most difficult repair behind replacing a bb shell. Still it's the proper repair.

My earlier post was my soft hand attempt to cut the builder a break and prompt him to make this right. That can only happen with the two parties involved. My suggestion would be like the one outlined by Peter P. Build the customer a new frame. In the meantime the customer rides the messed up one until the new one is ready. The customer returns the original frame after receiving the new one. Then repair the original and sell it at a reduced price with full disclosure. This would allow the builder to recoup some losses. Either way, the builder takes it in the shorts but that's the cost of doing business and a harsh lesson while on the path of the learning curve. Everyone makes mistakes but this is one of those that should have been sorted out before going into business. I applaude the OP for not outing the builder though. Classy move.

Curt

[weaponsgrade]

OP, I don't have any advice to give, but I'll try helping you out by relating my own story. My custom frame arrived with a small cosmetic flaw. A lug hadn't been squared off and so was crooked. It would've been very difficult to see once the bike was built up. Nonetheless, it bothered me. I was told about it before I received the frame, but it was too late to do anything since the frame had already been painted. I expressed concern and builder offered to build me a new frame. I get the frame. It bothered me. I asked for some advice and got a lot of it and took some flack. In the end, I sent a picture of the frame, in confidence, to another very respected builder I'd done business before with to get his thoughts. He told me that it should be fixed. He offered a couple of suggestions short of building a new frame. All those suggestions sounded pretty good and I would've been fine with any of them. I called up the original builder and talked about what could be done. He wasn't thrilled, but had me send the frame back and he'd take another look. Three weeks later I had my frame back. He carefully worked a file around the lug and then had his painter repaint. I was happy and the bike now has a few hundred miles and counting.

[sspielman]

I don't see a problem with that.

Dave
I do...I think the answer is reaming.....

[Fixed]

reaming is finishinng emory paper grinding milling lathe work it's all part of the game
cheers imho :beer:

[Kirk007]

Ginger and Steve's comments about the common use of filler and flawed worksmanship evident on raw frames just upped my appreciation for the fine work of those builders who send detailed photos of the raw frame build. Nothing to hide behind, and with full knowledge that enthusiasts such as those who post here will share those photos with the Universe via the internet.

Here's to those who put their work out there. Bravo!

Greg

[SPOKE]

remember that way cool green bike you built?? remember that scratch on the chain stay :crap:
share that experience with the group. we'll all get a good laugh from it :beer:

[82Picchio]

The builder determined that he can't fix the bulge and very graciously offered to build a new frame. I gladly accepted the offer.

The End. :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

remember that way cool green bike you built?? remember that scratch on the chain stay :crap:
share that experience with the group. we'll all get a good laugh from it :beer:
well there i was - serotta pete and spoke were there to
pick up there official lunchtable passports and give me
some cabbage at the same time. pete was the calm one.
and i knew from the courtship that spoke was the anal
one. so both rigs are choppered in from jb's. i build both
up with 2005 campagnolo record. and, like a true frame
builder, all i could think of was the balance due. will they
like the bicycles? huh. to me, it was pay day, and that's
all that mattered atmo.

so the anal cat is quiet and both are looking at each other's
purchases. and i know that pete was too polite to vomit
when seeing the green hazard paint that was used up on
the spoke-er. but these two are pals, and i know that they've
been ribbing each all along.

so the silent one gets all, uh - real silent. he's focusing on
what could be called a bulge, and it's not mine. zmatta fact,
the bulge was actually a blem in the paint. and i know I DID
NOT PUT IT THERE and I NEVER SAW IT BEFORE HE POINTED
TO IT. i'm thinking, 'how can i blame him and still get paid atmo?'

he pointed. i looked in disbelief. we both started making up
white lies about how it didn't matter and that the first blem
is the hardest blah blah blah. but the effer still confounded
me cuzza i know i'm a relentless detail idiot as well as detailer.

so just as i was about to channel george costanza channeling
his experience as a marine biologist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kMkFmKgEFw), i took my t-shirt off, stood
proud and bare in front of the anal one, and with one swipe of
the RS uniform black 100% gildan t, i wiped the bulge right off
the chainstay. ya can't make this ****sht up atmo.

[Len J]

well there i was - serotta pete and spoke were there to
pick up there official lunchtable passports and give me
some cabbage at the same time. pete was the calm one.
and i knew from the courtship that spoke was the anal
one. so both rigs are choppered in from jb's. i build both
up with 2005 campagnolo record. and, like a true frame
builder, all i could think of was the balance due. will they
like the bicycles? huh. to me, it was pay day, and that's
all that mattered atmo.

so the anal cat is quiet and both are looking at each other's
purchases. and i know that pete was too polite to vomit
when seeing the green hazard paint that was used up on
the spoke-er. but these two are pals, and i know that they've
been ribbing each all along.

so the silent one gets all, uh - real silent. he's focusing on
what could be called a bulge, and it's not mine. zmatta fact,
the bulge was actually a blem in the paint. and i know I DID
NOT PUT IT THERE and I NEVER SAW IT BEFORE HE POINTED
TO IT. i'm thinking, 'how can i blame him and still get paid atmo?'

he pointed. i looked in disbelief. we both started making up
white lies about how it didn't matter and that the first blem
is the hardest blah blah blah. but the effer still confounded
me cuzza i know i'm a relentless detail idiot as well as detailer.

so just as i was about to channel george costanza channeling
his experience as a marine biologist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kMkFmKgEFw), i took my t-shirt off, stood
proud and bare in front of the anal one, and with one swipe of
the RS uniform black 100% gildan t, i wiped the bulge right off
the chainstay. ya can't make this ****sht up atmo.

Green Hazard paint............I love it!

len

[Kevan]

big fella!

[big shanty]

I wacked the fork on my Vanilla in Missoula, MT....in transit to Bozeman. Big bubble the size of a pencil eraser. I'll be damned if a couple of days later the bubble was gone, the only remnant being a miniscule chip in the clear coat. Something about that good paint.....and no magic shirts required.

[Ginger]

The builder determined that he can't fix the bulge and very graciously offered to build a new frame. I gladly accepted the offer.

The End. :beer:

Oh, it's never the end. But it's good to hear that all the worry was for naught.

Post up some pics in the custom bikes when you get it built!


Kirk007: Yep. I was so delighted when I got the "in process" photos of my bike. And have you ever seen Dave Kirk's bare fillet pictures? Wow...

Excellent story Richard. I'll remember that one.

[J.Greene]

remember that way cool green bike you built?? remember that scratch on the chain stay :crap:
share that experience with the group. we'll all get a good laugh from it :beer:

I have admired the guy who had the cajones to ride a green Sachs. Good on you Spoke!

JG

[Pete Serotta]

the investigation


well there i was - serotta pete and spoke were there to
pick up there official lunchtable passports and give me
some cabbage at the same time. pete was the calm one.
and i knew from the courtship that spoke was the anal
one. so both rigs are choppered in from jb's. i build both
up with 2005 campagnolo record. and, like a true frame
builder, all i could think of was the balance due. will they
like the bicycles? huh. to me, it was pay day, and that's
all that mattered atmo.

so the anal cat is quiet and both are looking at each other's
purchases. and i know that pete was too polite to vomit
when seeing the green hazard paint that was used up on
the spoke-er. but these two are pals, and i know that they've
been ribbing each all along.

so the silent one gets all, uh - real silent. he's focusing on
what could be called a bulge, and it's not mine. zmatta fact,
the bulge was actually a blem in the paint. and i know I DID
NOT PUT IT THERE and I NEVER SAW IT BEFORE HE POINTED
TO IT. i'm thinking, 'how can i blame him and still get paid atmo?'

he pointed. i looked in disbelief. we both started making up
white lies about how it didn't matter and that the first blem
is the hardest blah blah blah. but the effer still confounded
me cuzza i know i'm a relentless detail idiot as well as detailer.

so just as i was about to channel george costanza channeling
his experience as a marine biologist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kMkFmKgEFw), i took my t-shirt off, stood
proud and bare in front of the anal one, and with one swipe of
the RS uniform black 100% gildan t, i wiped the bulge right off
the chainstay. ya can't make this ****sht up atmo.

[Pete Serotta]

Everyone happy and ready for "red"

[e-RICHIE]

wow is that a bike shop or is it martha stewart's house atmo?

[Pete Serotta]

a little bit of heaven (no not Martha) :D


wow is that a bike shop or is it martha stewart's house atmo?

[e-RICHIE]

a little bit of heaven (no not Martha) :D
it's a good thing - and relentless too atmo.

[manet]

.wow is that a bike shop or is it martha stewart's house atmo?

[SPOKE]

well there i was - serotta pete and spoke were there to
pick up there official lunchtable passports and give me
some cabbage at the same time. pete was the calm one.
and i knew from the courtship that spoke was the anal
one. so both rigs are choppered in from jb's. i build both
up with 2005 campagnolo record. and, like a true frame
builder, all i could think of was the balance due. will they
like the bicycles? huh. to me, it was pay day, and that's
all that mattered atmo.

so the anal cat is quiet and both are looking at each other's
purchases. and i know that pete was too polite to vomit
when seeing the green hazard paint that was used up on
the spoke-er. but these two are pals, and i know that they've
been ribbing each all along.

so the silent one gets all, uh - real silent. he's focusing on
what could be called a bulge, and it's not mine. zmatta fact,
the bulge was actually a blem in the paint. and i know I DID
NOT PUT IT THERE and I NEVER SAW IT BEFORE HE POINTED
TO IT. i'm thinking, 'how can i blame him and still get paid atmo?'

he pointed. i looked in disbelief. we both started making up
white lies about how it didn't matter and that the first blem
is the hardest blah blah blah. but the effer still confounded
me cuzza i know i'm a relentless detail idiot as well as detailer.

so just as i was about to channel george costanza channeling
his experience as a marine biologist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kMkFmKgEFw), i took my t-shirt off, stood
proud and bare in front of the anal one, and with one swipe of
the RS uniform black 100% gildan t, i wiped the bulge right off
the chainstay. ya can't make this ****sht up atmo.

Wow! great story. there is no way in he** i could have made it any more entertaining. i wonder what the story will be for the next one??

[e-RICHIE]

Wow! great story. there is no way in he** i could have made it any more entertaining. i wonder what the story will be for the next one??
we're trying to coax ginger into the
cake for when you first see it atmo.

[manet]

we're trying to coax ginger into the
cake for when you first see it atmo.

please remember this...

http://www.celiac.com/st_prod.html?p_prodid=2

[slowgoing]

Hard to forget, especially the "sprue."

[Ginger]

.
I think I have to go back...I didn't get a pic of Richard, the place my bike is going to be built, or Richard with his new cow bell...


Hold it...there aren't any pics there of Richard without his shirt...?

Maybe it's better that way. Leaves more to the imagination. :p

[FATBOY]

I am the proud owner of a frame that replaced the frame that I ordered.

This is my first custom bike and I waited longer than originally promised for it. When it arrived the BB shell was warped from the heat of brazing. I thought I was grumpy from waiting too long! The builder admitted that the lapse in QC should never have happened and remedied the issue in rediculously fast time. No rebate was offered. What was offered was a continued faith in the manufacturer, their bike and their service. I love the bike. This is the frame that I paid for. I would buy again from this builder. What I am saying is that i chose to build a frame from a small builder because i found that their particualar blend of quality, detail and service fit with what I wanted in a bike. When the prior two came up short, the investment in the latter paid off in spades. I have never regretted my decision and love the ride of my rig and get a kick out of the looks it garners. If you had faith in the service of this builder when you ordered the frame, have faith that he will make it right and the frame you ordered is the frame you receive. I believe that every builder that visits this forum would do so! If not, make sure to make his life so miserable he decides to sell used cars instead of passing shoddy bikes off on the rest of us...... :beer:

[J.Greene]

Hold it...there aren't any pics there of Richard without his shirt...?
Maybe it's better that way. Leaves more to the imagination. :p

I've been there done that. It's better in person. The fantasy in this case does not live up to the real thing atmo.

JG

[rounder]

well there i was - serotta pete and spoke were there to
pick up there official lunchtable passports and give me
some cabbage at the same time. pete was the calm one.
and i knew from the courtship that spoke was the anal
one. so both rigs are choppered in from jb's. i build both
up with 2005 campagnolo record. and, like a true frame
builder, all i could think of was the balance due. will they
like the bicycles? huh. to me, it was pay day, and that's
all that mattered atmo.

so the anal cat is quiet and both are looking at each other's
purchases. and i know that pete was too polite to vomit
when seeing the green hazard paint that was used up on
the spoke-er. but these two are pals, and i know that they've
been ribbing each all along.

so the silent one gets all, uh - real silent. he's focusing on
what could be called a bulge, and it's not mine. zmatta fact,
the bulge was actually a blem in the paint. and i know I DID
NOT PUT IT THERE and I NEVER SAW IT BEFORE HE POINTED
TO IT. i'm thinking, 'how can i blame him and still get paid atmo?'

he pointed. i looked in disbelief. we both started making up
white lies about how it didn't matter and that the first blem
is the hardest blah blah blah. but the effer still confounded
me cuzza i know i'm a relentless detail idiot as well as detailer.

so just as i was about to channel george costanza channeling
his experience as a marine biologist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kMkFmKgEFw), i took my t-shirt off, stood
proud and bare in front of the anal one, and with one swipe of
the RS uniform black 100% gildan t, i wiped the bulge right off
the chainstay. ya can't make this ****sht up atmo.

The bulge was a Titleist?? Anyway...that was a great story.

[Karin Kirk]

Hold it...there aren't any pics there of Richard without his shirt...?

Or in a yellow skinsuit, perhaps??

[Ginger]

Or in a yellow skinsuit, perhaps??

I dunno...yellow is a difficult color for 99%.

That whole channeling big bird look.

[Karin Kirk]

I dunno...yellow is a difficult color for 99%.

That whole channeling big bird look.
Yeah, well Jonathan Page apparently pulled it off, right?

But you're right - ALL yellow is too much.
Besides, I don't think yellow is RS' color.

[taz-t]

.

[taz-t]

.

[Archibald]

reaming is when you ream the seat tube with a reamer.
some folks get the pipes so hot that they distort and then
a seatpost goes in fakaka (that's yiddish for something).
the reamer remedies the fakakaness atmo.
Like throwing a hot dog down a hallway. :banana:

[Steve Hampsten]

You'll fry in Hell for that, Ferris.