Psychology of obesity...

[benb]

I'm sure we've all see the articles about the recent studies claiming that who you surround yourself with affects your chances of becoming obese... (Somehow it's more acceptable when everyone else around you is enormous)

A funny aside to this. This morning I'm listening to the radio and the news comes on and they start talking about Kiefer (spelling?) Sutherland getting arrested for DUI. Well I have no respect for a DUI but apparently his height and weight were released with his mug shot...

5'10", 150lbs..

They proceeded to rant and call him a p*ssy and make fun of him for his weight for the next 5 minutes... "How can Jack Bauer save the world at 150lbs!", etc...

It would seem 150lbs is a decent/healthy weight for someone that height in a sane world. Funny how far we've come. That's dead smack in the middle of the BMI range, seems to be about normal if he was an endurance athlete, etc..

[J.Greene]

I've lost 35lbs as of this morning. Not a single person(except my wife and family) has congratulated me for doing something about my health and fitness. The only thing I have heard is that I look too skinny. It does not bother me but I do find it odd how we think.


JG

[BURCH]

I bet Audie Murphy wasn't much over 150lbs.

http://www.jrotc.org/audie_murphy.htm

[Ozz]

I'd be surprised if Bruce Lee was over 135....

[benb]

Forgot to mention they didn't rip on him for drinking and driving at all.

[Kines]

I've lost 35lbs as of this morning. Not a single person(except my wife and family) has congratulated me for doing something about my health and fitness. The only thing I have heard is that I look too skinny. It does not bother me but I do find it odd how we think.


JG

I get the same guff from my wife, and from co-workers, at peak race season.

I'm 6'1" and never get below 165lb; rarely less than 170lb.

KN

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . the culture of obesity than the psychology, to me. We've run so many stories in our paper about supersized meals, overweight people suing because the restaurant chair wouldn't hold their 350 lbs, hospital equipment companies making whole new lines of wheelchairs and gurneys for the obese, etc.

There are times I've been foolish enough to express an opinion in public that it's NOT o.k. to be grossly overweight and been treated as if I'm some sort of bigot. All of the research that exists that proves that the more overweight have more health problems, higher insurance costs, shorter lifespans, etc, etc., ETC. . . . and yet so many people behave as if it's totally OK.

My daughter went to Prague with her school singing group last summer--'06. When she got back I asked her of her impressions of her trip and the first thing she said was, "Dad, there were no fat people!" She was amazed at how few noticeably overweight people there were.

That got me to thinking . . . maybe the high rate of obesity in this country--over 50%--versus Europe has something to do with how much more hostility there seems to be from drivers toward cyclists here vs. there. We're out there, we're obvious, we're thin, we're fit, and we're doing something positive for ourselves. That can generate some hostility in those who would like to be able to do so, but haven't, I would think . . .

BBD

[JohnS]

So many people I used to know thought that life ended at 40. As soon as they hit it, they'd sit down in front of the TV with a beer and chips and made it a self-fulfilling prophesy.

[Fixed]

misery loves company imho
cheers

[dirtdigger88]

Im always amazed at the people who refer to me as "skinny"

Im 6' and 200lbs-

***???

Jason

[BumbleBeeDave]

Just go down to the local mall, pick out a bench, and sit there for 30 minutes and watch who goes by. It's a very sobering experience whenever I've done it. It leaves me feeling so lucky that I am in the shape I am . . . And I ain't no Mr. Universe!

BBD

[Ray]

So many people I used to know thought that life ended at 40. As soon as they hit it, they'd sit down in front of the TV with a beer and chips and made it a self-fulfilling prophesy.
I'm WAAAAY behind the curve. I'm waitin' till I'm 50.

-Ray

[Fixed]

bro 50's the new 40
imho
cheers

[fstrthnu]

I've lost 35lbs as of this morning.


JG

Damn... that is impressive. :beer:

[J.Greene]

Damn... that is impressive. :beer:

Thanks Man...your the first.

I was 176, now 141. I have about 10 more to go.

JG

[ecl2k]

When you eat a lot of junk food you get desensitized to all the peer pressure and advertising that encourage you to eat. I switched to a 100% healthy diet no junk food allowed for a while and it was like a daily battle to keep family and friends and coworkers from stuffing brownies and cupcakes into my mouth, and then when you refuse you're the jerk that makes them feel fat. Was watching some football last weekend, and there are commercials for pizza hut telling me I need to eat a pound of this pizza sandwich thing to feel "un-hunger." I looked it up on their website and it's 1500 calories (mostly carbs and fat) not to mention the beer and wings that would go along with it. I saw an oreo dessert pizza commercial and felt like I was going to vomit.

This is what's wrong with america
http://www.dominos.com/Public-EN/resources/image/468319f4b7e2a9f2/promo_oreo_v2.jpg

[Mshue]

So many people I used to know thought that life ended at 40. As soon as they hit it, they'd sit down in front of the TV with a beer and chips and made it a self-fulfilling prophesy.

There is so much truth to this. I think many welcome the excuse to take it easy.

[Mud]

My Mom lives with us and is 94, sharp as a razor, and likes to get out for a meal as long as it does not cost too much. She also likes French Toast, Pancakes, etc. At 103#s she can eat what she wants.

My unscientific observation is that the average customer in IHOP, Perkin's, House of Pancakes, etc is 50#s overweight including the kids.

18 Months ago my goal was to be able to climb any hill in my home area. I was a pretty fit 188#. Now I am a fitter 149 (5'10") and can climb the hills as can my wife who dropped to 117# and we have stayed there. WWs is wonderful.

I don't mind the comments that I am too thin, look drawn, or a should eat more. I love it.

But many do not seem to care. Check out any of the fast food sit-down places like Chilis, Applebees, TGI Fridays, it is a shame. I see the parents and realize the kid is doomed.

[crf]

Yeah, the Oreo thingie looks like a lunch room challenge.

[BURCH]

I looked it up on their website and it's 1500 calories (mostly carbs and fat) not to mention the beer and wings that would go along with it. I saw an oreo dessert pizza commercial and felt like I was going to vomit.

This is what's wrong with america
http://www.dominos.com/Public-EN/resources/image/468319f4b7e2a9f2/promo_oreo_v2.jpg


+1

When I saw this commercial I was thinking the same thing!

[GoJavs]

Funny....I lost about 35 lbs a year ago and people that haven't seen me in that long come up to me and ask discreetly.....'are you ok?'.... :rolleyes:

I'm 5'11" 160 lbs and I really think I still have a good 10 lbs to lose.

[CNY rider]

+1

When I saw this commercial I was thinking the same thing!


That commercial spawned a 10 minute diatribe in our living room last night!
Somehow that seems to have really touched a nerve.
We haven't ranted about obesity and industrial food so much since we saw Supersize Me!'

[Ozz]

...I see the parents and realize the kid is doomed.
My oldest son started playing organized sports this past year...it's really sad to see how may overweight kids there are. When he was playing baseball, some of the kids were winded just running to first base! At soccer this past weekend, there was one kid who sat on the ground to rest during the game! Mind you, this was 3 v 3 and we sub every 3-5 minutes! I always thought six year olds were supposed to have unlimited energy!

Truly sad...when I was young, it seemed that the "fat kid" was the exception.

P.S. - There is this tradition where the parents take turns bringing treats for after the game...after watching all the candy and soda show up after baseball, I set the rule for soccer that only "healthy" snacks are allowed after the game. So far, fruit, popcorn and water have been observed. So far so good....but yeah, it's the parents responsibility to set the example.

rant over.....

[BURCH]

That commercial spawned a 10 minute diatribe in our living room last night!
Somehow that seems to have really touched a nerve.
We haven't ranted about obesity and industrial food so much since we saw Supersize Me!'

The other recent commercials that I shook my head at were the Fudg'ems commercials. Those chocolate covered brownies. Who needs that after pizza?

KFC had that commercial where they dump all that stuff into a bowl (mashed potatos, gravy, cheese, chicken nuggets..etc). My LORD!!!

And the big breakfast sandwich (http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/28/news/midcaps/burgerking_breakfast/) from Burger King. Sad thing that I read about is that Burger King tried to do the healthy choice stuff until their numbers started falling. So the new CEO said...we are Burger King! The weight conscious consumer is not walking thru our door. We need to make the biggest breakfast sandwich. What do you know he was right and their numbers went up!

A quote about the 730 calorie sandwich, "It's designed for people who like to start the day with a hearty breakfast," said Denny Post, chief product officer at Burger King."

[BURCH]

P.S. - There is this tradition where the parents take turns bringing treats for after the game...after watching all the candy and soda show up after baseball, I set the rule for soccer that only "healthy" snacks are allowed after the game. So far, fruit, popcorn and water have been observed. So far so good....but yeah, it's the parents responsibility to set the example.

rant over.....

A woman that I work with went mad when she found out that the 2nd grade teacher was giving the kids candy for correct answers or exceptional work. Do you know it took a lot for her to get the school to act on it. Not sure who was right. I would assume the mother (my co-worker). Your words reminded me of this...

[Louis]

All of this whining. Our soldiers are dying in Iraq in order to defend this lifestyle.

Everyone of you who does not participate in the gorging is dishonoring their sacrifice.

Louis

[CNY rider]

.

P.S. - There is this tradition where the parents take turns bringing treats for after the game...after watching all the candy and soda show up after baseball, I set the rule for soccer that only "healthy" snacks are allowed after the game. So far, fruit, popcorn and water have been observed. So far so good....but yeah, it's the parents responsibility to set the example.

rant over.....


I'm curious about when exactly that became a tradition.
I played Little League/rec baseball and football for many years.
I don't remember anyone's mom bringing snacks on an organized basis.
As I recall we were a thin group of kids for the most part.
So now that they're fatter than ever (as a group) they need formal snacking in order to survive a 2 hour practice or game?
How bout lunch at noon, dinner at 6, and limiting snacks in between? Is that concept totally foreign?

[dbrown]

I realized how much our culture's body-image has changed when watching old Bonanza episodes. I remember when I was a child, how big and fat people thought Dan Blocker was, as Hoss. When I view those episodes now, he looks like a leaner than average male for our time. All of the male movie stars from the 50's and 60's look lean and dapper compared to today's average male.

[dauwhe]

Threads like this make me feel a bit uncomfortable. It seems like there's a risk of being self-congratulatory: Why can't everyone be more like us?

I'm not trying to discount the huge problems (medical and otherwise) that are out there. I was horrified by the Oreo pizza, too. But I suppose I see those problems as social, cultural, and political, rather than as evidence of moral failings...

Dave "not quite sure what I'm trying to say" C.

[Ozz]

I'm curious about when exactly that became a tradition.
I played Little League/rec baseball and football for many years.... Is that concept totally foreign?
Apparently.....I was happy getting orange slices at half-time!

I inherited this "tradition"....I think it goes more to the parents wanting to "contribute" to the team somehow, and then morphed into who could be the "coolest" parent by bringing the "best" snack. It was all I could do to hustle my son out of dugout when one parent pulled out some bubble gum as a snack! :crap:

Since the games are played around lunch time, the kids don't get to eat beforehand...for whatever reason, so I don't mind that get something to eat after the game....just not cr@p please!

See other thread about "peer pressure" and "keeping up with the Joneses"

[tch]

with this. When I was in high school, I was the "fat kid". 5'8", 163 lbs. with a stocky skeletal structure. Now, I'm 52. I weigh 168 lbs. I am "thin" -- not only to my colleagues but to my 18 and 19 year old students! As an adult who interacts with a couple hundred recent high school graduates a year, I'm totally blown away by how heavy these young people are. It's nothing for these young people to weigh in the 200's and to be wearing size 36/38 pants. The real obesity in America is masked because many, many people are overweight and there's no readily available reasonable standard.
It's a real crisis.

[pbbob]

What is really sad and disturbing is the obesity among native americans. I was reminded of the dual problems of diabetes and obesity during the powwow I attended in albuquerque this weekend. some of the drummers were so big and yet so young.

I don't weigh myself. When I go to the doc I just tell him that my clothes still fit.

[Bud_E]

A woman that I work with went mad when she found out that the 2nd grade teacher was giving the kids candy for correct answers or exceptional work. Do you know it took a lot for her to get the school to act on it. Not sure who was right. I would assume the mother (my co-worker). Your words reminded me of this...

Let's not get too carried away here. It's probably not a good idea for a teacher to reward every correct answer with candy but a teacher's job can be difficult and if an occasional candy reward gets the kids' attention, it can be a useful tool.

Believe it or not sometimes parents have been known to be a tad overreactive. :rolleyes:

[BumbleBeeDave]

Threads like this make me feel a bit uncomfortable. It seems like there's a risk of being self-congratulatory: Why can't everyone be more like us?

I'm not trying to discount the huge problems (medical and otherwise) that are out there. I was horrified by the Oreo pizza, too. But I suppose I see those problems as social, cultural, and political, rather than as evidence of moral failings...

Dave "not quite sure what I'm trying to say" C.

I've read this thread several times today and thought, "Who am I to judge?" What do I know about what pressures or demons these people face in their own lives that lead them to where they are? There could be a hundred reasons that might lead someone to gain weight, not all them due to lack of personal discipline or just plain sloth.

On the other hand, though, rampant obesity also seems to be just another overt symptom of the quest for excess in almost everything in this country that all seems to come back to just sheer greed, and wanting to have something because we can--not because we really need it or will even use it. To me, obesity is just another, more personal expression of that wretched excess. And it cuts into my territory when I know d@mn well that it's costing me more $$ of MY hard-earned money in insurance costs and other things.

The average new home now is huge. Double-decker, then triple-decker sandwiches. Super-sized meals. Super-sized lottery jackpots that have led to super-sized gambling addiction problems. Super-sized CEO salaries that are hundreds of times higher than line workers. Big cars. Big jewelry--more and more "bling." It just seems to go on and on. Americans no longer just want to have it better than their parents. So many more people these days seem to want to have it ALL--and right now.

Being fat is just another way of saying "Lookit me! I've got it ALL."

BBD

[AndreS]

[So far so good....but yeah, it's the parents responsibility to set the example.

rant over.....[/QUOTE]

Our kids (9 & 10) had a couple of friends over, the same age. These children, 9 & 10 years old mind you, did not know how to use a knife to cut their food. My wife ended up cutting their steaks (or pork chops, or chicken, I forget what) for them. They had, literally, never had food that didn't come out of a box or a blister pack. They practically didn't know what a vegetable was, and certainly didn't eat them. When asked what they ate, it was: pizza, chicken nuggets, chips, etc. Their mom is a nice lady, and is having a tough time (5 kids, getting a divorce, working 3 jobs), but still, as I said to my wife: as far as I'm concerned, this is child abuse.

[MarleyMon]

Congratulations to all who have recently lost weight.
I've struggled with my weight for years.
I lost 45 lbs. 4 years ago (diet & excersice) and have kept more than half of it off,
but regained 10 in the last few months.
I attribute much of it to special circumstances - lots more sugary baked goods
and alchohol at parties for my parents 50th anniversary (I have a big family and the parties stretched over 3 months).
We had a great time looking at all the old family pictures
and I was a little surprised to see that I looked in good shape in my teens,
but I remember feeling at the time that I was fat (10 lbs maybe).
I was disturbed to see how overweight some of my neices have become
in a short time in their late teens
- sedentary daily life and calorie rich, cheap food (high fructose corn syrup is in so much).
I fear for their health as they add 1, 2, 5, 10 lbs each year.
Bad food is easy and cheap, good food takes some work and exercise takes a lot of work.
Thanks for helping me focus on my goals again!

And Keifer Sutherland is not 5'10" imo!

[Flat Out]

On the other hand, though, rampant obesity also seems to be just another overt symptom of the quest for excess in almost everything in this country that all seems to come back to just sheer greed, and wanting to have something because we can--not because we really need it or will even use it. To me, obesity is just another, more personal expression of that wretched excess. And it cuts into my territory when I know d@mn well that it's costing me more $$ of MY hard-earned money in insurance costs and other things.

The average new home now is huge. Double-decker, then triple-decker sandwiches. Super-sized meals. Super-sized lottery jackpots that have led to super-sized gambling addiction problems. Super-sized CEO salaries that are hundreds of times higher than line workers. Big cars. Big jewelry--more and more "bling." It just seems to go on and on. Americans no longer just want to have it better than their parents. So many more people these days seem to want to have it ALL--and right now.

Being fat is just another way of saying "Lookit me! I've got it ALL."

Some would say so is an $8k bike. ;)

I totally agree with your sentiment, though.

[Dave B]

For someone who is obese himself I can tell you that it is my fault.

a hair shy of 6' and probably 247 at the moment.

It is my own damn fault. I eat crap, lift loads of weight and my cardio consistency blows.

I make excuses, blame my wife and mother who lives with us, and probably use food as therapy.

I am mean, hot tempered, and sick in the gut, Probably depressed too, but I hide that pretty well. AND I ride really light!

You know one of these days I should lose weight....heck as soon as taco bell shuts down I am golden!

I have dropped weight with darn hard work then allow myself to step on a million land minds at home. I couldn't tell you why I allow myself to get fat every time unless it is just laziness. That is the best explanation I can think of.

You know that Oreo Pizza you were talking about...yep just tried it, it sucks. we through it away.

I worry that I too will become like my mother who is an insulin dependent diabetic, yet my resolve is about as useful as a chocolate firewall.

I joke, but it sucks. Running hurts, walking is better, but not much. Cycling is the best as it does not hurt so bad...well sometimes, but I also love it.

I know I am off the bike now, but I have hope.

anyway, when you speak about what you weigh and how tall you are and what you have to lose...I don't feel sorry for you.

Sure I can understand it, needing to lose 10 pounds. Good luck with that..seriously.

Man I have got to stop sharing during the tough times.

Anyway, I am not going to say "Ok exercise starts tomorrow," because I think that is fake, and I am not that guy. When I get thinner I'll tell you! How is that!

[swoop]

freaking coca-cola is evil.

i have to get off of it and pizza too.

[Dave B]

Ironically I drink Diet Dew.

Messed up huh!?!

[keno]

.

[Ray]

Don't forget, folks, that being fat was something to aspire to for the first zillion or so years of human evolution. Somewhere along the way, that instinct got hard-wired in. Today we know that combining excess weight with a sedentary lifestyle is not a healthy way to go, but understanding something intellectually and feeling it in your gut (no pun intended) are two different things. You usually have to accept something intellectually for quite a while before you can internalize it and really BELIEVE it. As with lots of technology, our newfound ability to get really fat really easily has outstripped our ability to control those impulses. Those on this board tend to have higher levels of self-discipline than most, but that may also be because those of us who have a relatively easy time of keeping the weight off are the type that are drawn to cycling in the first place.

No point in getting high and mighty and disgusted with everyone who hasn't handled that challenge. Just try to keep educating folks and setting an example. I'll bet in another zillion years or so everyone will be thin again.

-Ray

[Dave B]

Don't forget, folks, that being fat was something to aspire to for the first zillion or so years of human evolution.

-Ray



Then I am the coolest dude you know!

James Dean who????


Holla!

[vandeda]

Thanks Man...your the first.

I was 176, now 141. I have about 10 more to go.

JG

Rock on! Good to see someone is going against the norm ... losing weight to something normal, as opposed to just gaining weight and becoming the now unfortunate norm :(

Kudos for putting in the time, effort and will power to lose the pounds!!!

[Sandy]

I've lost 35lbs as of this morning. Not a single person(except my wife and family) has congratulated me for doing something about my health and fitness. The only thing I have heard is that I look too skinny. It does not bother me but I do find it odd how we think.


JG

Congratulations!..... Congratulations!........Congratulations!.......


Sandy

[mikki]

No point in getting high and mighty and disgusted with everyone who hasn't handled that challenge. Just try to keep educating folks and setting an example.
-Ray

+1 Education is the key

Less gaming & tv for kids & adults,do away with fast food joints, remove the high fructose & sodium in nearly everything , kick out preservatives and chemicals from our foods, more exercise. Sounds easy, right? If only organic foods were as cheap as junk food it might be easier for a greater amount of people to eat well. Whole Foods out here just opened a megastore and their prices seem to be moving towards the regular grocery stores prices, but there is only one for all of our county. Wish there were more of them & closer.

[Dave B]

Someone told me once to only shop on the perimeter in the grocery store. Once you get into the rows you get fatter.

[Ozz]

...If only organic foods were as cheap as junk food!My six year old wants to plant a garden next spring and grow some food. He is facinated by the (unripe) figs at his bus stop. He grew a basil plant in our kitchen window...cool summer camp project....he even reads the labels on all our food checking out "Trans Fats" and such...

Daddy is proud. :banana:

[swoop]

somewhere along the line food stopped being food and became a way to self soothe. that's when it hit the fan.
atmo.

[Dave B]

Word!

[bigtime]

What is really sad and disturbing is the obesity among native americans.

I usually stay way away from these discussions, but I saw a brilliant documentary on PBS that addressed this very issue. Alan Alda was the host.

In a nutshell, they examined the fundamental differences in how the metabolisms of different 'ethnicities' (from centuries of adaptation) were brilliantly adapted (in the southwestern native american's case) to 'working' well and optimally at breaking down seeds and native vegetation that did not require much water. Their bodies were 'used' to existing, and healthily, in what we'd call 'lean' situations. (Didn't address wild card issues like bacteria, viruses, tomohawks, rifles.)

Given today's diet of ease and excess, their metabolism doesn't have much to break down; they aren't running their optimal fuel. And we are where we are today.

It was not a blame thing at all. It looked at the obesity epidemic from a much more compelling perspective... not that there arent other very significant contributors, but this take I think would give someone new info if they were trying to find a more pure, more healthy diet for themselves (given their more natural genetic predisposition.)

For my pasty white butt, cutting down on breads and riding til I almost pass out has helped a lot. My ethnicity is of the Pasty White Tribes of northern Europe...with a bit of Apache thrown in just to really eff things up for me physically.

Atmo.

[mjb266]

Not sure that correlation=causation butthe wife and I moved to a place where we don't get Television and we haven't sprung for the DirectTV and I am blissfully ignorant of so many things that are going on in the world. Students were telling me today about how excited they were to go home and play Halo 3...I hadn't heard a thing. I don't ever see McDondalds commercials and kind of forgot they were around. Without the advertising the presence that many crappy things have in our life disapears.

As for being overweight and it hurting to run...Fitness is a crappy feedback loop that goes super slow in one direction and way too fast in the other. It hurts to run so you don't run. You aren't working out so you start feeling lethargic and "off". You haven't been riding so you're heavy and riding when you're heavy hurts your butt, arms, and makes climbing suck.

Before you know it you find things that prevent you from working out day after day after day. Start working out and you feel crappy for a week or so but then start getting positive feedback. Muscles feel better, tone starts improving, you get some endorphines...

It's not that there are a million landmines to step on so much as the fact that working out for a couple months can destroy years of training in a way that seems unfair.

[Hardlyrob]

As noted by many here, this is an incredibly complex issue, and one without any simple answers. Many like to yell - "get rid of soft drinks in schools, off with TV advertising, and only eat organic unprocessed foods", but that isn't the answer for the vast majority of consumers that don't cook from unprocessed foods today. It's kind of like saying "we should all just make our own clothes like our grandmothers did, and the world would be fine" It just doesn't work like that.

I was watching the new Ken Burns docudrama The War - 18 million draftees in WWII, 5 million deferred for medical reasons - the primary reason was under weight / malnutrition. That's what was behind the school lunch program - a strategic program to make sure we had a better stock of potential soldiers.

Ray put it well earlier - we're conditioned through a zillion years to hoard calories when we find them. The problem today is that we find them all the time. I also have a hard time with saying "the gubbmint should ban all non-nutritious foods". I don't want a politician determining if I can have mayo on a sandwich or not. The shift in availability and the resulting low cost of food has happened so fast that we as a society haven't figured out how to adapt yet. I use a graph in presentations to food industry types that tracks food expenditures (at home and away from home) as a percent of disposable household income. It was 24-30% in the 30's and 40's and has steadily declined to about 9% today, with 5% of spending pretty constant as foodservice or away from home spending (yes even in the 30's - if you want to see the data PM me). My unpopular theory is that we're fat because food is too cheap - add a 15% tax to all food.

Sorry, this is the world I work in every day

Rant /off

Rob

[1centaur]

Right on fellow Tri-Towner!

Food is cheap and factories are great at making it taste good. It's not some American culture of excess, it's efficient food production that's spreading obesity around the world. When I lived in England as a kid everybody was scrawny. Now there are a ton of fat people there. How long until the world, not Americans, becomes Zen masters? Too long to stop diabetes being a worldwide plague. Human nature is hard to change.

This ties into the standard of living discussion in the Econ thread. After you've moved through Maslow's hierarchy you start again at the bottom and do it again only more so.

A culture of exercise is the first, best and easiest change to be made, way before we concur on some less is more philosophy on food. The 3Rs and gym from K-12. A cultural commitment.

[DukeHorn]

Thin is the new Fat. (maybe)

Remember in the Middle Ages, being fat symbolized your wealth. Sadly, in our society, being thin might be the new standard. I think LA was trying to limit the number of fast food restaurants but the prevailing argument was that for folks with limited incomes, fast food is a way of life. Blame it on the $1 double cheeseburgers...

[ecl2k]

Some interesting reading from one of the smart people tackling this problem:

http://www.ucsfhealth.org/childrens/cgi-bin/prd.cgi?action=DISPLAYDOCTOR&doctorid=1721

Norman Swan: There's a non drug that does it which is exercise, particularly resistance exercise, building up your muscles.

Robert Lustig: Exactly, in fact exercise is the best treatment. The question is why does exercise work in obesity? Because it burns calories? That's ridiculous. Twenty minutes of jogging is one chocolate chip cookie, I mean you can't do it. One Big Mac requires three hours of vigorous exercise to work that off, that's not the reason that exercise is important, exercise is important for three reasons exclusive of the fact that it burns calories.

The first is it increases skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity, in other words it makes your muscle more insulin sensitive, therefore your pancreas can make less, therefore your levels can drop, therefore there's less insulin in your blood to shunt sugar to fat. That's probably the main reason that exercise is important and I'm totally for it.

The second reason that exercise is important is because it's the single best treatment to get your cortisol down. Cortisol is your stress hormone, it's the hormone that goes up when you are mega-stressed, it's the hormone that basically causes visceral fat deposition which is the bad fat and it has been tied to the metabolic syndrome. So by getting your cortisol down you're actually reducing the amount of fat deposited and it also reduces food intake. People think that somehow exercise increases food intake, it does not, it reduces food intake.

And then the third reason that exercise is important, which is somewhat not well known, but I'm trying to evaluate this at the present time, is that it actually helps detoxify the sugar fructose. Fructose actually is a hepato-toxin; now fructose is fruit sugar but we were never designed to take in so much fructose. Our consumption of fructose has gone from less than half a pound per year in 1970 to 56 pounds per year in 2003.

more at http://www.abc.net.au/rn/healthreport/stories/2007/1969924.htm

[BURCH]

Someone told me once to only shop on the perimeter in the grocery store. Once you get into the rows you get fatter.

Alton Brown said this same thing on his cooking show, "Good Eats". He mentioned it more to say how you will get all of your non processed food on the perimeter for the purpose of cooking a better/fresher meal. I guess that goes hand in hand with what you were told.

[BURCH]

I don't see this post being a "touchy" subject since we are not attacking a particular person. It is not like the thread started out discussing how obese John Doe has gotten. I think that this subject needs to be discussed openly. I find that reading everyone's posts is interesting and enlightening.

Ok ok, I guess I did attack that Oreo treat commercial :D

[Sandy]

Based only on observation and no scientific expertise, people are obese, normally, because they simply eat too much. They simply consume more calories than they burn up. But that is an oversimplification, and even if is true, the real question is why do they do such, and I don't know if there is a single answer or if enough is known about obesity to explain why obese people allow themselves to become obese and stay that way.

Undoubtedly some of us are predisposed to obesity because of heredity. Some of us probably have faster and more efficient metabolism than others. Some gain weight as a function of genuine side effects of specific medications. There is the cultural and family influence which varies tremendously from person to person. Ethnicity probably plays its part too. Even peer pressure. What about self worth issues, and some who eat to escape, to soothe themselves, so that at least part of their life produces some meaningful positive sensations. There probably is no single explanation of why some of us are obese.

Some don't care if they are obese. Some abhor it. Some have the disclipline not only to lose weight but to keep the weight off. In others, the needed discipline does not exist. Stealing a couple of words form Karin Kirk- intrinsic and extrinsic motivation in some combination play an important part in the weight loss program. I have recently lost 35 pounds in 13 weeks and will lose 5-10 more, depending on how I look. Both intrinsic and extrinsic motivation played a great part for me.

Some obese people really suffer emotionally. I often think of the obese high school girls who never get dates, who are ridiculed, and will never know what a Sr. prom is all about. If it was so easy to lose wieght, for some, don't you think that a lot more of us would do it? Underneath the fat, there is sometimes real desperation, depression and genuine suffering by some, both emotionally and physically.

BBDave- You are one of my very favorite people here, but I think your.... eating is simply a matter of excess in our society.... is much too simplistic of a view- It is a much more complex issue.


Slimmer Sandy

[frenk]

US guys, don't believe Europe is anti-obesity heaven.
As it happens for most trends, we are just ~10 years behind. Things are changing fast, unfortunately.

[BBB]

[QUOTE=Sandy}BBDave- You are one of my very favorite people here, but I think your.... eating is simply a matter of excess in our society.... is much too simplistic of a view- It is a much more complex issue.

Slimmer Sandy[/QUOTE]

Yes this is correct; it is a much more complex issue.

However, BBDave's point of view is pretty much on the money - why, for example, would anyone need a supersize meal?

[BumbleBeeDave]

B
Undoubtedly some of us are predisposed to obesity because of heredity. Some of us probably have faster and more efficient metabolism than others. Some gain weight as a function of genuine side effects of specific medications. There is the cultural and family influence which varies tremendously from person to person. Ethnicity probably plays its part too. Even peer pressure. What about self worth issues, and some who eat to escape, to soothe themselves, so that at least part of their life produces some meaningful positive sensations. There probably is no single explanation of why some of us are obese.


I agree it's an incredibly complex issue! I didn't mean to make anyone think my short rant was a complete analysis of the problem! :rolleyes:

My mind boggles when I sit down and try to consider ALL sides of this issue. But I feel very strongly that the hereditary and medical condition sides of it are used far too often as excuses. People use the excuse that it's heredity or something else they can't control when in fact it's one of the reasons you mention above that can be controlled if they practice some self-discipline.

And maybe that is the core issue here. Our society contributes to that subliminal want of excess by encouraging us at every turn to chuck self-discipline out the window! Watch TV for an evening and it's one long parade of commercials encouraging us to buy stuff rather than save our money. Either that or it's shows that feature people who get into either funny or dangerous or deadly situation--all too often because of their own lack of self-discipline. So many things in society are pecking away at us to eat too much, spend too much, lie around too much . . . it goes on and on.

Please keep in mind that I'm not holding myself up as some sort of paragon of self-discipline. I grab my share of sloth! But I do try to remove much of the temptation to overeat and I feel strongly that the hereditary part has blessed me in being a type A personality--I literally can't sit down for an hour without getting nervous--unless I'm asleep.

I make a grocery list and stick to it--don't even look at the stuff on the end caps! I read labels and look for trans fats, etc.--and avoid them. Don't buy that stuff! So I don't even have it in the house to tempt me. I avoid TV with it's bad messages. I avoid sweets on the office food counter or at parties--or look back at my riding over the past few days to see if I can simply be replacing several hundred calories that I just used up.

There's a lot of stuff people could do to avoid gaining the weight that has nothing to do with exercising more. It just has to do with self-will and self-discipline--but today's society and morals and media just keep pecking away at you to "treat yourself--you deserve it!"

BBD

[Lifelover]

Threads like this make me feel a bit uncomfortable. It seems like there's a risk of being self-congratulatory: Why can't everyone be more like us?

I'm not trying to discount the huge problems (medical and otherwise) that are out there. I was horrified by the Oreo pizza, too. But I suppose I see those problems as social, cultural, and political, rather than as evidence of moral failings...

Dave "not quite sure what I'm trying to say" C.

+1

It does come off that way.

Of course I'm a fat guy.

[Lifelover]

...seems to be just another overt symptom of the quest for excess in almost everything in this country that all seems to come back to just sheer greed, and wanting to have something because we can--not because we really need it or will even use it. [/I].


BBD


Coming from a guy who has all black/yellow bikes and a bunch of black/yellow outfits, this sounds a little strange.


...Being fat is just another way of saying "Lookit me! I've got it ALL."BBD

Did you really type that!? What an A$$!

[JohnS]

Geez BBDave, you're going to get a reputation like mine if you keep talking like that. :D

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I guess if everyone loved me life would be pretty boring, John. I've been called far worse . . . It's interesting in this case, though, to get the impression that simply having my cycling wear match my bike translates into wretched excess of ego.

In many other parts of the world being overweight is acknowledged to make precisely the statement I feel it is now seeming to make more and more here in America. Excess and ostentation simply for the sake of showing people you have it. But as I've read it, being overweight is a status symbol of the rich in countries where resources are scarce, including food. You're rich if you can accumulate enough food to gain the weight. That's the comparison I was trying to make. Maybe I could have done it more eloquently . . .

BBD

[Elefantino]

I know a woman who was 300+ pounds. Without stomach stapling or surgery or anything other than simple diet and exercise, this person is now 135 pounds and I am not making this up. This person now rides a bike with our club group, can hang with most anyone and is fit.

I know another woman who was 300+ pounds. This person had gastric bypass surgery and lost more than 100 pounds. However, this person doesn't exercise regularly and has made no significant changes in diet.

One of these people I admire. The other I don't. One of these people took it upon themselves to control their own health, and to make every effort possible. The other person took the easy way out — not that surgery is easy, but it is the rather more drastic equivalent of popping a pill. It requires no effort.

Now, this is the part that is going to get me in trouble: I find it somewhat disconcerting that we live in a society where it is quite acceptable to deny civil rights to law-abiding citizens who harm no one, who work hard, who contribute and who make the world a better place while at the same time we make excuses for — and condemn people who dare to criticize — people who harm not only themselves but also their children and our health-care system simply because their lifestyle choices lead them into the "plus size" sections.

And, frankly, I'm tired of hearing the argument from overweight advocates that "not everyone is overweight by choice." I'm no endocrinologist, but I think the percentage of overweight people for whom obesity is a matter of metabolism is tiny; if it weren't, other countries would have similar numbers. They don't.

We ran two stories in our paper on Tuesday: One dealt with employers who offered monetary incentives to employees to lose weight (it worked, according to the study) and the other dealt with employers who are toying with the idea of charging more for insurance for workers who are obese. One of our editors, who is not obese, thought it was unfair to pay obese people a bonus simply to do what they should be doing anyway. Another one of our editors, who is obese, opined that it would probably be unlawful to treat obese employees differently … as if being obese was a right. An interesting discussion.

Anyway, I feel sorry for people who are obese and I pray that they can change their lives. I got my haircut yesterday; a woman came in with her young (3 or 4) son. She was probably in her 20s, but because she weighed probably 350 pounds or more, it was tough to tell. She was also a smoker and had just come from McDonald's. I felt sorry for her, and for her son, and the image troubled me most of the day.

But, at the same time, I do not feel she has the right to be obese, nor do I feel responsible for the medical care that she will quite likely require, early and often, because of her condition, which is certainly exacerbated by her obviously bad lifestyle choices. Nor do I feel that I must make special accommodations for her or others who make choices to be obese.

I have a friend who is a pilot; he flies small, commuter airlines. There was an obese woman who boarded the plane recently and had to take up both of the seats in one aisle. It was not a full plane, so the person next to her was able to find another seat. But my friend saw this woman and told her she would have to pay for two seats. She protested, loudly, until my friend said if she would not, then he was ordering everyone off the plane and would have all the luggage reweighed (or something like that), which was his right. After the argument had stretched on too long and delayed take-off, the other passengers became angry and essentially hounded this woman into paying for two seats. She did, and of course promised to sue, which she didn't.

The Constitution guarantees many of our rights. The right to be obese is not among them.

[BumbleBeeDave]

+1

BBD

[Lifelover]

I have a friend who is a pilot; he flies small, commuter airlines. There was an obese woman who boarded the plane recently and had to take up both of the seats in one aisle. It was not a full plane, so the person next to her was able to find another seat. But my friend saw this woman and told her she would have to pay for two seats. She protested, loudly, until my friend said if she would not, then he was ordering everyone off the plane and would have all the luggage reweighed (or something like that), which was his right. After the argument had stretched on too long and delayed take-off, the other passengers became angry and essentially hounded this woman into paying for two seats. She did, and of course promised to sue, which she didn't.




I don't believe this story at all. Sounds like a made up Urban legend.


1. It's not the Pilot's job to decide how much passengers pay. Acting this way could easily cost him his job.

2. I would be surprised if the other passengers sided with the pilot in a case like this. He is the one holding (threating to hold up) the flight. Not the Fat lady.

3. Without having her leave the plane there is no way to process the payment for the extra seat.


If someone is claiming first hand knowledge of this you can't should not believe anything they say.


Maybe Saab can talk more directly to it since he is a pilot.

[benb]

I didn't mean for this to take off like it did.. just relating a funny story.

I'm almost TV-less for the past 2 months after finally saying "enough" and cancelling my cable.. I'm already noticing I'm missing a lot of the "programming" that TV pumps in us.. I was pretty unaware of that Oreo Pizza thing for example.

In general I think TV/Culture is programming people to think obesity is much more complicated then it actually is though.. because there are so many ways to make lots of money off people who are desperate to lose weight.. you just brainwash them into thinking it's hard, sabotage their efforts to lose weight, and then keep selling them products which don't work. All this talk about insulin resistance and different foods, etc.. Cortisol (gotta buy those anti-cortisol pills!), etc..

The reason it will be so hard to solve the problem is the real solution is un-american.. the solution is to buy & consume less.. and that would break the diet/exercise industries profits... better to keep people fat so they have to keep buying the latest product. (the diet portion of the industry being way more guilty then the exercise side IMO though)

[Sandy]

Elefantino, I would like you to think about the following that involves you directly-

I just read your post on high blood pressure in the "Hypertension issue..."thread. For almost all of your life your blood pressure was "...very good 100/60-70)...." One could say that you probably did all the correct things to keep such a low blood pressure. But just 6 months ago, your blood pressure jumped to an unacceptable 150/110 figure. You said that a family gene that causes high blood pressure became active. Now you are on 2 blood pressure meds.

Couldn't I just look at you both superficially and judgemantally and simply apply your logic about obese people, to you, and people who suffer from high blood pressure? Certainly there could be and probably is a gene that predisposes people (and families) to obesity. What is the difference in application? Should I simply say, as you do for the obese lady, that I don't feel the responsibility for your medical care that you may require because of your high blood pressure situation?

Sandy could say that elephantino dosn't take care of himself and he let himself get high blood pressure. But I would be wrong. There is a reason for your high blood pressure and is not simply poor lifestyle decisions.

Do you or BBDave really know why that lady eats so much and is so obese? Why she hasn't lost weight? Is there really that much of a difference in her situation as in yours? If so, please explain.





Sandy

[Elefantino]

I don't believe this story at all. Sounds like a made up Urban legend.


1. It's not the Pilot's job to decide how much passengers pay. Acting this way could easily cost him his job.

2. I would be surprised if the other passengers sided with the pilot in a case like this. He is the one holding (threating to hold up) the flight. Not the Fat lady.

3. Without having her leave the plane there is no way to process the payment for the extra seat.


If someone is claiming first hand knowledge of this you can't should not believe anything they say.


Maybe Saab can talk more directly to it since he is a pilot.

She left the plane and paid, I was told, then came back. This isn't an urban legend. The airline is based out of St. Louis.

[Tom]

My theory is that for many people eating is their only thrill.

Start sedentary and passive, find that food gives you some pleasure and there you go. Eating and oral stimulation becomes a habit. Look around and observe how many people are eating or carrying drinks at just about any time, there's no distinct mealtime for many people.

Maybe somebody that knows something about human psychological development can talk about the oral stimulation phase and where in the person's development that is supposed to start and stop.

Certainly when somebody's in their 20s or 30s and they can barely haul themselves around, and I see many of them in the building where I work, their life must really suck. The thing is, so many of them accept it as just the way things should be.

Bernd Heinrich puts it well when he writes that the human body experiences inactivity as a stress, and that we are not evolved to deal with it yet.

[JohnS]

I know Southwest makes people who can't fit in one seat pay for two.
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_guidelines.html

[Elefantino]

Elefantino, I would like you to think about the following that involves you directly-

I just read your post on high blood pressure in the "Hypertension issue..."thread. For almost all of your life your blood pressure was "...very good 100/60-70)...." One could say that you probably did all the correct things to keep such a low blood pressure. But just 6 months ago, your blood pressure jumped to an unacceptable 150/110 figure. You said that a family gene that causes high blood pressure became active. Now you are on 2 blood pressure meds.

Couldn't I just look at you both superficially and judgemantally and simply apply your logic about obese people, to you, and people who suffer from high blood pressure? Certainly there could be and probably is a gene that predisposes people (and families) to obesity. What is the difference in application? Should I simply say, as you do for the obese lady, that I don't feel the responsibility for your medical care that you may require because of your high blood pressure situation?

Sandy could say that elephantino dosn't take care of himself and he let himself get high blood pressure. Probably doesn't take care of himself. But I would be wrong. There is a reason for your high blood pressure and is not simply poor lifestyle decisions.

Do you or BBDave really know why that lady eat so much and is so obese? Is there really that much of a difference in her situation as in yours? If so. please explain.



Sandy
I used the woman as an example. Perhaps she does have a metabolic condition that predisposes her to obesity. But smoking and McDonald's do not help her situation and almost assuredly make it much worse, don't they?

I understand, Sandy, that there are people for whom obesity is not a choice. But, again, they are not in the majority — rather, a small minority — of those who are overweight.

If my high blood pressure came as the result of eating poorly and not exercising, then yes, there would be no difference in my situation as hers. If you saw me with blood-pressure medicine in one hand and a Marlboro and a Big Mac in the other, you could rightly say, "Mike, you are an idiot" or, if you prefer, "Mike, you have brought your condition on yourself." But that is not the case because there has been no change in my life, other than age.

I understand the struggle of losing weight because I have lived with it. It is difficult beyond what many "normal" people can imagine. But it can be done, and successfully, by the overwhelming majority of those who are overweight if they would make the commitment and put their health before everything else. You are a great, and shining, example.

[BarryG]

This isn't an urban legend.
There are plenty of documented cases on the Web of an obese passenger forced to pay for a second seat on numerous airlines.

[dauwhe]

What can we do to help? We're cyclists. We can go out and ride (the more bikes on the road, the safer it is for all). We can push for a more bicycle- and pedestrian-friendly environment. We can support local food and farmers. We can talk about the pleasures of physical activity and eating good, wholesome food.

Saying "Those fat people need to try harder to lose weight" doesn't help. Talking of sacrifice, discipline, self-denial--I don't think that helps, either.

Dave

[JohnS]

Saying "Those fat people need to try harder to lose weight" doesn't help. Talking of sacrifice, discipline, self-denial--I don't think that helps, either.

DaveWhy don't we talk about "common sense"?

[MarleyMon]

BBD - I think you've got it upside down. High status is conferred on those who are thin.
Poorer people are getting fat because their jobs require less exertion,
but can still afford the small luxury of having someone else (McD, KFC, etc.) cook for them.
The wealthy have lots of outlets for conspicuous consumption, many involve fitness.
They also have the leisure time to devote to such activites.

Elefantino - weight loss surgery IS dangerous - ask Charlie Weiss.
He almost died, but lost his lawsuit because the doctors had told him the risks.
The woman who had surgery in your example WAS taking action to improve,
you just don't admire that action ("no effort" - I disagree)
(PS - your sig makes me hungry.)

take this all w/ a grain of salt and a tsp. of sugar
Mike

[JohnS]

Poorer people are getting fat because their jobs require less exertion,

Say what? Most poor paying jobs require lots of exertion. Think warehousing, assembly, etc.

[BumbleBeeDave]

BBD - I think you've got it upside down. High status is conferred on those who are thin.
Poorer people are getting fat because their jobs require less exertion,
but can still afford the small luxury of having someone else (McD, KFC, etc.) cook for them.
The wealthy have lots of outlets for conspicuous consumption, many involve fitness.
They also have the leisure time to devote to such activites.


I had not considered it in that light. I think your viewpoint makes more sense than mine.

Of course, this makes so many people on this forum guilty of "conspicuous consumption" in buying a Serotta . . .

BBD

[itsflantastic]

http://www.dominos.com/Public-EN/resources/image/468319f4b7e2a9f2/promo_oreo_v2.jpg

Hey! That was cruel. I keep pressing the order online now button and nothing happens!

[MarleyMon]

JohnS - those are GOOD jobs! I mean clerks, phone/desk jockeys.
Less exertion than farming, which is what most did until fairl recently.

[JohnS]

JohnS - those are GOOD jobs! I mean clerks, phone/desk jockeys.
Less exertion than farming, which is what most did until fairl recently.Not anymore. Most are now non-union and pay in the $11-12 range unless it's a S&P500 company.

[MarleyMon]

...
Of course, this makes so many people on this forum guilty of "conspicuous consumption" in buying a Serotta . . .

I did not say this ;)

[itsflantastic]

American diets 70% corn (http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/diet.fitness/09/22/kd.gupta.column/index.html)

high fructose corn syrup is one of the major enemies imho. It's in everything that comes in a package. Not only the corn syrup, but this article fails to mention that a large % of the meat in this country is corn fed too....

that's a lot of corn

My roomie looks at me crazy when I cook vegetables/quinoa/anything from the farmers market that is fresh and organic.

[Fat Robert]

some observations

a good diet and exercise are now middle-class priviledges. the median income here at the rock is 26,000. most of my kids eat what the parents can buy in bulk at the Bi Lo or Piggly Wiggly. that means various forms of highly processed sugar, corn, white flour. the calorie bang-for-the-buck is in the middle of US grocery stores. sound nutrition is on the edges of stores, and more expensive. mrs. fat and I (and no, we're not fat, i'm six one, 170, she's five three, 115) spend about 120.00 a week on groceries, and no junk or processed foods in the cart -- just flour for baking, veggies, beans, breads, fruits, dairy. a family of four in rock hill sc couldn't spend 500 bucks a month on groceries. they need to go for the cheetos, oreos, frozen pizzas, and other crap -- more calories, more "filling" foods, less money in the short term. of course, more money on medical care they can't afford in the long term....

outside of school sports, which are now over-specialized mini-farm programs, kids have no chance to exercise. here, the parks are for gang-bangers. the schools, by law, have one bike rack. the school district, afraid of litigation if a kid gets hit while riding his or her bike to school, makes that bike rack as small as possible, and then tucks it away where no one can see it.

i try to model sound diet and exercise for my students, but except for the jocks, it all falls on deaf ears. the only good the rest get out of it is that once a year i'll tell a jock wise-guy that he can run his mouth in my class only if he can do more one-arm push ups than me at lunch. no winner yet. the other kids just laugh at the poor sap. makes me feel chuckly, doesn't do anything about the rotten health of my students.

[CNY rider]

As has been pointed out, it is truly a tiny proportion of people who are obese for inherited or metabolic reasons.

Another way to think about it: We have had a huge increase in the proportion of obese people in the population over the past 30 years. On the timescale of genetic evolution that's a microsecond blip. So we can safely say that the vast majority of those obese today have the same genes as the non-obese from the WWII generation. There hasn't been some evolutionary change towards obesity in the past few decades.

I will also add that I see many obese patients over the course of a day. Sadly most of them are obese because they lack self-discipline and the motivation to change. That may not be a popular thing to say, nor does it make me feel good to say it, but it is the unfortunate reality.

[BURCH]

So while looking thru this thread this morning and drinking my Fruit Frusion by Dannon I paused and decided to look at the nutritional label. I always assumed these things were healthy, but I was surprised by the 280 calories and other numbers. That seems high for a breakfast drink, right? I usually have one whith a banana. Here I thought I was being healthy with these things and I think I might be wrong. Are these drinks not that great for you with those numbers below?? Any nutritionists out there? Stuff like this can add to our wastelines. The marketing makes you think it is healthy, but....

Calories 280
Calories from Fat 30
Total Fat 3.5g 5%
Saturated Fat 2g 10%
Trans Fat 0g
Cholesterol 15mg 5%
Sodium 130mg 5%
Potassium 350mg 12%
Total Carbohydrates 51g 17%
Dietary Fiber 0g 0%
Sugars 48g
Protein 8g 16%

[JohnS]

it's not bad. Very few of the calories are from fat. You do need calories.

[Sandy]

I used the woman as an example. Perhaps she does have a metabolic condition that predisposes her to obesity. But smoking and McDonald's do not help her situation and almost assuredly make it much worse, don't they?

I understand, Sandy, that there are people for whom obesity is not a choice. But, again, they are not in the majority — rather, a small minority — of those who are overweight.

If my high blood pressure came as the result of eating poorly and not exercising, then yes, there would be no difference in my situation as hers. If you saw me with blood-pressure medicine in one hand and a Marlboro and a Big Mac in the other, you could rightly say, "Mike, you are an idiot" or, if you prefer, "Mike, you have brought your condition on yourself." But that is not the case because there has been no change in my life, other than age.

I understand the struggle of losing weight because I have lived with it. It is difficult beyond what many "normal" people can imagine. But it can be done, and successfully, by the overwhelming majority of those who are overweight if they would make the commitment and put their health before everything else. You are a great, and shining, example.

Your points are well received. I realized that the comparison that I was making was not a 1-1 similar situation, but I do think that a large portion of leaner people approach obesity in others in a rather distant and non-understanding manner, not aware of how difficult it is for obese people to lose weight.

Let me give myself as a simple example- I have an almost insatiable appetite, even worse when I was taking a different med for my fatigue/energy/depression problem. I love Quizno tuna subs on whole wheat sub rolls. I could easily go and buy 2 large Quizno tuna subs and eat them one after another without pausing. As I would eat them, I would not get satiated, but would actually get hungrier and hungrier. I could easily follow the two subs with a large bowl or two of cereal and bananas. I have done all of that before. After the cereal, I would still be extremely hungry. Likewise, I could go to an all you can eat restaurant, and eat 6-7 pieces of barbecued chicken breasts, several salads, cole slaw, lots and lots of corn bread stuffing, cantaloupe, lots of string beans,....and then when I get home 20 minutes later, I could (and have) eaten bowls of cereal and bananas because I was more hungry after I left the restaurant than when I started to eat there. I have also done that before. Some leaner people would be satisfied with one chicken breast, a few vegetables, and a salad. It is a lot harder for me to stay away from food than for others to do such.


Starving Sandy

[BarryG]

What can we do to help?
Monetary incentives in terms of lower health insurance premiums sure make sense . . .

[davids]

some observations

a good diet and exercise are now middle-class priviledges. the median income here at the rock is 26,000. most of my kids eat what the parents can buy in bulk at the Bi Lo or Piggly Wiggly. that means various forms of highly processed sugar, corn, white flour. the calorie bang-for-the-buck is in the middle of US grocery stores. sound nutrition is on the edges of stores, and more expensive. mrs. fat and I (and no, we're not fat, i'm six one, 170, she's five three, 115) spend about 120.00 a week on groceries, and no junk or processed foods in the cart -- just flour for baking, veggies, beans, breads, fruits, dairy. a family of four in rock hill sc couldn't spend 500 bucks a month on groceries. they need to go for the cheetos, oreos, frozen pizzas, and other crap -- more calories, more "filling" foods, less money in the short term. of course, more money on medical care they can't afford in the long term....

outside of school sports, which are now over-specialized mini-farm programs, kids have no chance to exercise. here, the parks are for gang-bangers. the schools, by law, have one bike rack. the school district, afraid of litigation if a kid gets hit while riding his or her bike to school, makes that bike rack as small as possible, and then tucks it away where no one can see it.

i try to model sound diet and exercise for my students, but except for the jocks, it all falls on deaf ears. the only good the rest get out of it is that once a year i'll tell a jock wise-guy that he can run his mouth in my class only if he can do more one-arm push ups than me at lunch. no winner yet. the other kids just laugh at the poor sap. makes me feel chuckly, doesn't do anything about the rotten health of my students.
Very well said - You have to be relatively well-off to afford to eat well, and have sufficient education and leaisure time to figure out what's nutritious.

And our public education system doesn't care to teach kids how to be healthy.

[Kines]

Undoubtedly some of us are predisposed to obesity because of heredity.

Slimmer Sandy


True, there is an increased disposition in some, but so what? I'm not saying that Slimmer Sandy is telling us that some people are doomed to be fat because of their genes, but others have, and it is utter BS.

According to the CDC, in 1985 the incidence of obesity in NC was <10%. In 2005 it was 20-24%. You need only high school biology to know how little the gene pool changes in 20 years!!! Complete and utter BS.

KN


P.S. If you really what to horrify yourself, go to the CDC webiste and find the powerpoint slides on obesity in the US 1985-2005.

[Fat Robert]

And our public education system doesn't care to teach kids how to be healthy.


but that's the irony

we have health, nutrition, weightlifting and conditioning classes as electives, and students take them.

then we serve them pizza and fries for lunch

then we don't have reasonable public recreation facilities

hoopty parks don't cut it. niether does our soccer mega-complex designed to bring in youth tournaments and tourist dollars. the kids who live in apartments across the street have no place to play free sports within walking distance, but there are ten soccer pitches across the street -- for a fee, and only for organized teams. madness.

there's been noise about a velodrome here in the rock, but unless there is afleet of beater rentals, that wouldn't help the mainstream either. it provide me with an excuse for a pursuit bike again....

[Kines]

But, at the same time, I do not feel she has the right to be obese, nor do I feel responsible for the medical care that she will quite likely require, early and often, because of her condition, which is certainly exacerbated by her obviously bad lifestyle choices. Nor do I feel that I must make special accommodations for her or others who make choices to be obese.



And why SHOULDN'T the obese pay more for health insurance? Smokers do, and putting food into your mouth is as much a choice as is putting a lit cigarette there.

KN

[Dave B]

I don't think inheritance is my problem, that is for sure.

My mom is fat, but also lazy, maybe I inherited that form her. :D

[J.Greene]

And why SHOULDN'T the obese pay more for health insurance? Smokers do, and putting food into your mouth is as much a choice as is putting a lit cigarette there.

KN

They pay more for life insurance. But we all pay more for smoker's health insurance rates. But who cares....we're being told our money is worthless anyway.

JG

[dauwhe]

I know quite a few avid cyclists who might be considered obese. Some are fast, some aren't. They seem to enjoy riding just like me. One of them has devoted a large portion of her life (as a volunteer) to organizing cycling events. I try not to make any assumptions about their bodies or their lives.

Do we judge the content of someone's character by their Body Mass Index?

Dave

[Kines]

Do we judge the content of someone's character by their Body Mass Index?

Dave

Well, at least one small portion of their character, yes. I do the same for smokers.

KN

[MarleyMon]

This NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/20/fashion/20skin.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=fitnessandnutrition) describes a new "cure" - anti-fat shots called lipodissolve.

[gt6267a]

I think the economic argument for obesity is trashy. Canned soup, canned vegetables, frozen vegetables, frozen chicken in bulk bags, brown rice … these things are not nearly the price of the fresh stuff at the edges. Do tastycakes or Little Debbie products really cost less than a can of chicken and rice soup? Doubt it. Inexpensive nutritious products are readily available and enable a person to eat a reasonable calorie, fat, and cost diet. The ability to produce more food than we need to eat doesn’t mean all nutritious food is expensive. In terms of flavor, texture, and nutrition; a skilled chef using only canned and/or frozen goods will lay a WWE style smack down on an inexperienced cook using the freshest meats and vegetables.

To eat fatty high calorie foods is a choice and it’s not just on one end of the spectrum. This weekend, I had a nice rib-eye and twice baked super cheesy potato. It wasn’t cheap. It wasn’t low cal. I made a choice. My stomach may be larger for it. The fat on my arse ain’t because I can’t afford to eat otherwise and neither is the case for most Americans, irrespective of whether the source of their fat is Kobe beef or Frito Lay.

[Len J]

& black & white.

The truth is that there is a continuum between the truly genetically incapable of weight control on one end and the truly incapable of putting on a pound on the other end. Most of us move from our starting point on the continuum and move towards the genetically obese end of the scale as we age.

There are as many reasons for the increase in weight in this country as there are heavy people

-Genetic predisposition
-Genetic response to feast or famine
-compensation for some other issue
-Lack of discipline
-Lack of education about diet
-Lack of access to healthy foods
-Peer pressure
-lack of Physical fitness access or knowledge
-Inertia.....difficulty in starting a program
-Home environment
-Stress
-Other medication effects


I would suspect that most weight problems are a combination of some if not all of the above.

If everyone I knew who wanted to lose weight lost weight, it would be a very large group indeed. I think most heavy people don't like being heavy...they are just "stuck"....most have probably lost and gained many times their current body weight over their life.

Life is hard.......having a weight problem makes it harder.

Walk a 100 miles and all that.........It's easy to say what someone else should be doing....it's hard to actually do it.

Len

[Ozz]

Eating well is not that expensive....olive oil, garlic, onions, tomatoes, beans, and pasta....heck, what more do you need? Just a little effort.

The freshest "in season" veggies are also the least expensive.

Oh yeah, you need wine too! :beer:

[Elefantino]

And why SHOULDN'T the obese pay more for health insurance? Smokers do, and putting food into your mouth is as much a choice as is putting a lit cigarette there.

KN
They should. They should pay a lot more.

When I said I should not have to pay for it, I meant that my insurance rates should not go up to pay for people whose health is compromised by their lifestyle choice.

Same thing as people who ride their motorcycles without a helmet.

Same thing for smokers.

[Len J]

They should. They should pay a lot more.

When I said I should not have to pay for it, I meant that my insurance rates should not go up to pay for people whose health is compromised by their lifestyle choice.

Same thing as people who ride their motorcycles without a helmet.

Same thing for smokers.

Same thing for cyclists that ride in traffic.
Same things for Drivers involved in multiple accidents.


Where do you end?

Len

[BumbleBeeDave]

Do we judge the content of someone's character by their Body Mass Index?

Dave

. . . but then I go to the mall, or to the airport on a layover, and sit there for a few minutes and watch the HUGE percentage of people who walk by who are not just a little pudgy, but are instead grossly overweight. It's difficult not to ask myself--what's going on with all these people? Perhaps the difficulty I have avoiding asking myself that question is akin to the difficulty they have in keeping the extra weight off. I don't know.

But I think Len J has really nailed it with his list . . .

-Genetic predisposition
-Genetic response to feast or famine
-compensation for some other issue
-Lack of discipline
-Lack of education about diet
-Lack of access to healthy foods
-Peer pressure
-lack of Physical fitness access or knowledge
-Inertia.....difficulty in starting a program
-Home environment
-Stress
-Other medication effects

All of those are legit reasons, but with all the stories we've done about healthy eating education and initiatives in schools, senior centers, etc., I think it's going to get more and more difficult for people to use the excuses of lack of education or food access or knowledge. It's getting easier and easier to find information about diet, exercise, and healthy foods.

BBD

[Elefantino]

Same thing for cyclists that ride in traffic.
Same things for Drivers involved in multiple accidents.


Where do you end?

Len
I ride in traffic all the time. To quote Monty Python: "I'm not dead yet." (And it's also legal and does not harm anyone.)

Drivers involved in multiple accidents pay higher insurance rates, as they should.

The obesity in this country has grown exponentially in just a generation. Look at those CDC numbers. It's not genetic, any more than the reduction in the number of people who smoke over the same generational period is genetic.

Let me ask this: Should obesity be included in the Americans with Disabilities Act?

[Len J]

. . . but then I go to the mall, or to the airport on a layover, and sit there for a few minutes and watch the HUGE percentage of people who walk by who are not just a little pudgy, but are instead grossly overweight. It's difficult not to ask myself--what's going on with all these people? Perhaps the difficulty I have avoiding asking myself that question is akin to the difficulty they have in keeping the extra weight off. I don't know.

But I think Len J has really nailed it with his list . . .

-Genetic predisposition
-Genetic response to feast or famine
-compensation for some other issue
-Lack of discipline
-Lack of education about diet
-Lack of access to healthy foods
-Peer pressure
-lack of Physical fitness access or knowledge
-Inertia.....difficulty in starting a program
-Home environment
-Stress
-Other medication effects

All of those are legit reasons, but with all the stories we've done about healthy eating education and initiatives in schools, senior centers, etc., I think it's going to get more and more difficult for people to use the excuses of lack of education or food access or knowledge. It's getting easier and easier to find information about diet, exercise, and healthy foods.

BBD

you maybe...but you and your access and motivation and role models are not the norm.

Len

[Len J]

I ride in traffic all the time. To quote Monty Python: "I'm not dead yet." (And it's also legal and does not harm anyone.)

Drivers involved in multiple accidents pay higher insurance rates, as they should.

The obesity in this country has grown exponentially in just a generation. Look at those CDC numbers. It's not genetic, any more than the reduction in the number of people who smoke over the same generational period is genetic.

Let me ask this: Should obesity be included in the Americans with Disabilities Act?

to be obese also.

Look, statisticially, the fact that you ride in traffic means you are more likely to require emergency medical treatment than someone who doesn't...shouldn't they have higher insurance rates than someone who doesn't...it follows your argument logically.

BTW, I agree that the obese should pay more for ins....but I'm just pointing out the implication of that. When we have genetic screening, should genetic predispositions for disease result in higher ins? How about a genetic predisposition to live longer?

It's a slippery slope.

Len

[Elefantino]

Yeah, you're right about it not ending. And I guess if my health insurance company wanted to charge me more because I ride a bike, I'd have to counter that my riding a bike makes me healthier.

Round and round.

Bottom line: Americans getting fatter and, like all good Americans, we're looking for excuses, for someone to blame, or someone to sue.

[Ray]

Look, we can say that SOME of the increase in obesity we see in our society is a character issue. And we know that SOME of it isn't - some of it is just plain genetic pre-disposition and other health factors we know nothing about. But we can't look at any given individual walking through an airport or down the street and know whether they lack character or there's something else going on. So it's just not very productive to feel all high and mighty because, compared to WHO in particular? And which traits of ours are just as destructive and weak and lame in another direction?

Just as an aside - another BIG contributing factor that's come up before but I don't think it has in this thread - some of it is land use planning. We build suburb after suburb after suburb on two acre lots where you can't even FART without getting in your car and driving somewhere first and kids CAN'T walk or ride their bikes to their buddy's house because you have to go out on a suburban arterial to get to the next neighborhood over. And exercise is taken out of most people's daily lives unless they make a point to go to the gym to walk into televised oblivion on the treadmill. I've spent a good chunk of my professional life trying to change neighborhood design with minimal results and now I've moved on to trying to plan for sidwalks and bike paths that nobody will use anyway. Maybe someday I'll take a big paycut and go work in a bike shop selling bikes that will mostly sit in people's garages unridden because bikes are my passion!

Sorry, feeling a touch negative today...

-Ray

[BumbleBeeDave]

you maybe...but you and your access and motivation and role models are not the norm.

Len

What I meant is that it's easier than ever before to go find information on what to do if you really want to. How many people have I heard moaning about wanting to lose weight, but not knowing how? Or not knowing where to get the information? A lot.

BBD

[weisan]

Ray!-pal gets it. :cool:

[vaxn8r]

Your points are well received. I realized that the comparison that I was making was not a 1-1 similar situation, but I do think that a large portion of leaner people approach obesity in others in a rather distant and non-understanding manner, not aware of how difficult it is for obese people to lose weight.

Let me give myself as a simple example- I have an almost insatiable appetite, even worse when I was taking a different med for my fatigue/energy/depression problem. I love Quizno tuna subs on whole wheat sub rolls. I could easily go and buy 2 large Quizno tuna subs and eat them one after another without pausing. As I would eat them, I would not get satiated, but would actually get hungrier and hungrier. I could easily follow the two subs with a large bowl or two of cereal and bananas. I have done all of that before. After the cereal, I would still be extremely hungry. Likewise, I could go to an all you can eat restaurant, and eat 6-7 pieces of barbecued chicken breasts, several salads, cole slaw, lots and lots of corn bread stuffing, cantaloupe, lots of string beans,....and then when I get home 20 minutes later, I could (and have) eaten bowls of cereal and bananas because I was more hungry after I left the restaurant than when I started to eat there. I have also done that before. Some leaner people would be satisfied with one chicken breast, a few vegetables, and a salad. It is a lot harder for me to stay away from food than for others to do such.


Starving Sandy
Sandman, I can relate. I used to swim 6-7 hours a day...22K meters was typical in the summertime. I could eat a dozen donuts. Easy. I could eat a 15"x20" loaded pizza by myself. In college I ate with the football players and no one could out eat me. I couldn't eat enough. Today, I don't eat like that but I still get a ridiculous appetite and there are days I can not stop eating. Is it genetic? Years of eating that way as an athlete? Why are so many ex-athletes FAT!!??

If I had all the answers I'd weigh about 170. I sat in at the 180's until last year when I jumped 10 lbs and I don't have the will yet to lose it. I will say this. I eat no more than a lot of my cycling (skinny) buddies. Some of them easily out-eat me. It's not all about consumption because some skinny folk can eat a lot.

Having said all that we are a bit unique. I consider myself fat-in-shape because I am in shape. There's a ton of people that are fat out of shape, who use food as a reward. I have a 5 year old patient who is 104 lbs. Parents are divorced and reward her with FOOD ALL THE TIME. She's gonna be a 400 lb diabetic by the time she's 12 is my guess. Yes, I am trying to help them but first they have to bleieve they are killing her...and they don't.

[Fixed]

bro a lot of the cats i work with .. their exercise .... pushing the shopping cart with the groceries in it .
cheers

[DukeHorn]

I know an economic analysis is painful, but let's face it

a can of tuna is what?? $0.70
a can of vegetables is $0.75
bread $0.10 a /slice

your time for trying to put it all together. still probably in the $2.00 range for a meal?

two double cheeseburgers at mcdonald's = $2.00

soda is much cheaper than milk or juice.

what was that documentary where the guy ate mcdonald's for 30 straight days? he said it was addictive.

My family will cook after 10 hour days, slap the rice cooker on and take 30 minutes to prep stir-fry or something, but it is really easy to stop and get take-out and it's not much more expensive from a volume perspective (a quality perspective is a different analysis).

[Fixed]

that is why poor folks are some of the fattest bro cheers imho

[dauwhe]

Ray!-pal gets it. :cool:

I've thought of writing a script that would automatically reply to every one of Ray's posts with "+1"

Dave

[JohnS]

What I meant is that it's easier than ever before to go find information on what to do if you really want to. How many people have I heard moaning about wanting to lose weight, but not knowing how? Or not knowing where to get the information? A lot.

BBDBack when I ws a warehouse supervisor, I'd have employees ask me all the time how to lose weight, get healthy, etc, all the time. They never listened to anything I told them, so I quit wasting my time, and theirs. ther seems to be a lot of misplaced sympathy here for "poor" people. It's not the "poor" people, it's the lazy, unmotivated people of ALL economic classes.

[Lifelover]

Yeah, you're right about it not ending. And I guess if my health insurance company wanted to charge me more because I ride a bike, I'd have to counter that my riding a bike makes me healthier.

Round and round.

Bottom line: Americans getting fatter and, like all good Americans, we're looking for excuses, for someone to blame, or someone to sue.


Medical care is getting more expensive and "we're looking for excuses, for someone to blame"

[Lifelover]

... it's the lazy, unmotivated people of ALL economic classes.


They are not the ones doing all the B!tchin and whinin in this thread!

[Elefantino]

Look, we can say that SOME of the increase in obesity we see in our society is a character issue. And we know that SOME of it isn't - some of it is just plain genetic pre-disposition and other health factors we know nothing about. …
Again, genetics is not the reason. The atmospheric rise in the cases of obesity in the U.S. in the last 20 years is solely due to lifestyle. What you eat. How you eat. How, and if, you recreate. And yes, where you choose to live.

Genetics can't change in one generation, unless you're talking about Chernobyl.

[Ray]

Again, genetics is not the reason. The atmospheric rise in the cases of obesity in the U.S. in the last 20 years is solely due to lifestyle. What you eat. How you eat. How, and if, you recreate. And yes, where you choose to live.

Genetics can't change in one generation, unless you're talking about Chernobyl.
Genetics don't change that fast, but other environmental factors do. Like the rapid suburbanization that occurred in this country after WWII, which I mentioned earlier. And the largest lots and most auto-dependent suburbs were mostly in the '70s and '80s, so the worst of this is a relatively recent development. Not to mention the relatively recent news coverage and paranoia about child molesting predators our there scaring a whole generation of parents into killing their kids passively instead of feeding them to the perceived wolves. A lot of kids that are young adults today weren't ALLOWED to walk or ride their bikes like a lot of us did as kids. They developed bad habits through no fault of their own that they're having a bugger of a time breaking now, as adults.

On a related point, air quality has declined and there's a huge increase in asthma sufferers. A lot of those people will be inclined to stay indoors and exercise less. There are a host of other factors that lead people in a direction that greatly encourages the sedentary lifestyle and discourages activity. In addition to which, the harm that comes from this lifestyle wasn't all that obvious until 20-30 years ago. Hell, it was only 40 years ago that we figured out how bad smoking was, now we're talking about EATING!

For those who have been trained over a lifetime to be fat and lazy, it's damn tough to change overnight. Geez, I was raised to be extremely active and basically have stayed in pretty good shape my whole adult life, but even I've had bouts with inactivity over the years.

So, yeah, it's lifestyle changes to be sure. But I wouldn't be too quick to attribute all of that to a lack of character. Some of it was what seemed like a perfectly reasonable response to circumstances at the time. Look at automobiles as another example. Forty years ago nobody could have imagined the harm we were doing to ourselves and our planet by becoming increasingly mobile and auto-dependent. Until it's identified as a problem, people are going to keep doing it and even after its identified as a problem it takes a LONG time to break the habits and undue the damage. We may never recovery from the environmental harm that we've done over the past 50-60 years. And it may be a lack of character that keeps us from getting out of it, but you can hardly argue it was a lack of character that got us into it. I'd argue the same thing with a lot of the obesity we see around us.

-Ray

[Elefantino]

Yep. It took us a generation to get into both messes. I won't see repairs in my lifetime.

Oh yeah … wait a minute. There is no global warming. Sorry.