ot: military guns, until this moment...

[eddief]

i've had no interest in guns. there's a glock up in my closet someplace because it was left to me by my father.

if we have to do war, why not do it with the right equipment? saw a news piece today that would suggest this rifle is way better than the stuff we put in the hands of our fighters.

if true, it sickens me to puking that our guys fight with a 50 year old p.o.s. when we could put superior technology in their hands.

http://www.ultimaxsaw.com/

as george would say, god bless america.

[JohnS]

Don't worry, the M249 is not a POS and much better than the Ultimax. The Ultimax may have the best drum, but that's because no one else uses drums because they are unreliable. A SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) needs belt feed. The M249 is produced by FN (Fabrique Nationale), a Belgian company and one of the world's largest and best arms manufacturers (think Browning). It has been adopted by most NATO, as well as many other countries. The only user of the Ultimax is Singapore, where it's made---'nuff said. This is just another case of something being more glamorous because it's exotic and foreign.
PS-Eddie, I hope you have that Glock registered. If not, I believe that's a serious misdemeanor, if not a felony, in California. It may even be stricter in Berkeley.

[Ken Robb]

to what "50 year old pos" do you refer?

[Ken Robb]

Yo John--no state requirement to register a handgun in Cailifornia. There are background checks required to buy them.

[pale scotsman]

It's a matter of cost. Do you have any idea what it costs to outfit an Army with a standardized weapon and ammo? Me neither, but I'd wager it's a lot.

There's nothing wrong with M-16's M-60's, M239 SAW's etc. People think the AK's, HK's are superior because of the bigger round, but the 5.56mm M-16 packs an accurate long distance punch at a light weight, and if you keep 'em clean and lubed they will fire all day long.

If you can hear a round fired in your direction it doesn't matter whether it's a 5.56, 7.62, or .308, your *** is gonna duck. It's amazing what a few rounds down range will do.

I've run thousands of rounds through Beretta 9mm's, M-16's, M-60's, and a few M-203 grenade launchers, .50 cal double dueces, and even 105mm howitzers. We've got good reliable weapons. The only thing I'd think would help is shorter shocks for close arms.

My Dad and I would argue over the BAR he carried over the M-16 and M-60 I did. You've got to be able to carry the weapon and the ammo and not worry about it. Light weight, solid feel, and light ammo goes a long way. The 60 made a decent pillow with the tripod extended by the way...

[eddief]

over reacted to news item on public television. it suggested the design of the M was over 50 years old and unreliable. more than anything else, i am frustrated with the archaic approach to diplomacy in the world. the suggestion our guys are fighting with old crap in their hands just got me to the tipping point. i know less about guns now than when i posted an hour ago.

[JohnS]

The only thing I'd think would help is shorter shocks for close arms.
.
Stocks? That's why the Army has gone to the telescoping stock on the M4. It can be shortened if you're wearing a ballistic vest.

[JohnS]

over reacted to news item on public television. it suggested the design of the M was over 50 years old and unreliable. more than anything else, i am frustrated with the archaic approach to diplomacy in the world. the suggestion our guys are fighting with old crap in their hands just got me to the tipping point. i know less about guns now than when i posted an hour ago.The original M16 WAS designed almost fifty years ago. However, its had so many mods and improvements since that it's not the same gun. Ones that I can think of quickly are --forward assist, brass deflector, improved extractor, better sights, heavier barrel, different handguards, etc. It's sorta like comparing a Schwinn Varsity with one of that guy's from Connecticut's bikes. :)
Just be glad that we don't used the SA80/L85 the Brits are stuck with. Their SAS is lucky and uses the M16.

[93legendti]

over reacted to news item on public television. it suggested the design of the M was over 50 years old and unreliable. more than anything else, i am frustrated with the archaic approach to diplomacy in the world. the suggestion our guys are fighting with old crap in their hands just got me to the tipping point. i know less about guns now than when i posted an hour ago.

Yeah, don't be fooled by the media. I had an IDF Captain in my home in 2004 and we were talking about equipment and he said: " the Americans are so lucky, their helmets and bulletproof vests actually fit them. We make do with what we have." Of course, he wasn't a paratrooper or part of an elite/special forces unit, but it was interesting to hear.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I don't know about the effective firepower, but I think if our troops went into battle using their guns like this it would at least give them an advantage--the enemy soldiers would be bent over laughing. :rolleyes:

Reminds me of a Monty Python routine . . .

BBD

[csm]

the m249 can also use m-16 magazines when you run short of belted 5.56 improved. It is a LOT of fun to shoot. the thing to remember is assault weapons need maintenance to function properly. I have a Glock now and have NEVER had a misfunction. I keep it clean. the ak's are popular and thought to be superior purely through raw numbers; there are billions of them out there. they are durable and functional but b/c of the "looser" manufacturing tolerances, they lose some accuracy. They are incredibly reliable and will seemingly fire in all conditions.
I'll take a 16 and a cleaning kit over it anyday.
but that is atmo.

ak47 shimano
m16a4 campy

[JohnS]

ak47 shimano
m16a4 campy
YES!!!

[csm]

john, I thought you'd appreciate that!

[JohnS]

One of the few around here that does. It's almost like the old days...

[sg8357]

Don't worry, the M249 is not a POS and much better than the Ultimax. .

It was Newshour report on the poodle shooter, not M249.
A mostly accurate retelling of the f888*** over of the M16
by Springfield Armory. Interviews with an infantry officer
on his pref for the AK-47, jamming of the M16A2 etc.
Interview of one of the engineers on Stoners team,
his pref for the AK74. Notice the reporter didn't understand
the interviewees were talking about 2 different weapons.
Some excellent 50 year old+ weapons in use are the M2 heavy machine gun
and personally purchased M1911 pistols, the issued M9 pistols being unpopular in some refined quarters. ;-)

Talking to Gulf War I Marine, he expressed his preference for the M14,
Marines being fond of the discredited practice of aimed fire. :rolleyes:
Scott G.

[JohnS]

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. The M16/M4 is still a great system. You just have to clean it every 1000rds or so. The biggest problem with the M9 is that it's a 9mm and according to the Hague Accords (NOT Geneva Convention), you can't use hollowpoints. Us civilians don't have to worry about that. I never understood the Hague Accords. You can use napalm, a-bombs and everything else, but HP's are inhumane? :confused:

[csm]

the m249 also has a "switch" to make it fire faster when it gets carboned up with a lot of use and no time to clean it. If I remember, it would start jamming until you turned up the pressure a bit.

[csm]

plus, the US has the .50 cal rifle. why get close?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . never to post anything on here that would get any of you guys mad at me.

Oops. Too late . . .

BBD

[csm]

just post a gun-free home sign in your front yard and we'll be cool.
that way the bad guys know where to go with little resistance. otherwise you'd kinda be like Canada living under our nuclear umbrella.
yes that is joke. the part about the sign. not Canada.

[JohnS]

You have nothing to fear from us. We would be your best friends in time of need. It's the "quiet, peaceful ones" you should fear. People like dbrk... :beer:

[csm]

I use my shotguns more anyway now. It's dove season here.

[JohnS]

We don't have dove season here. They're considered "too peaceful" to shoot. C'mon, they're little pigeons!

[csm]

they are the country cousins of pigeons. and tasty.
did you hear about the guy who went duck hunting at a MN hotel?

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1440073.html

[dave thompson]

Latest USMC shoulder-mounted rifle.

[Louis]

Eddie, you going over to the dark side?

Maybe you could start a petition drive in Berkeley to change the US Constitution so W and Co. can serve another term :p

[eddief]

sitting in old oak trees.

[majorpat]

50 year old POS???!! How about the Browning .50 caliber developed in the 1920's! Had one mounted in front of me on my tank in Mesopotamia, worked pretty well. Brand new GPS mapping doo-dad sh*t the bed right out of the box. Sometimes older is wiser. (K-Bar, .50 cal, marksmanship training, etc.)

[Bill Bove]

The GAU-5A version of the M-16 I shoulderd during my Air Force days served me well.

What's the difference between the army and the boy scouts?


The boy scouts have adult leadership :banana: :banana:

[DukeHorn]

I thought there were definite issues when the M16 was introduced in Vietnam (i.e. difficult to maintain, jammed a lot, 5.56 didn't pack enough weight, and troops would rely on the "rock n roll"). Granted that the M14 was real heavy so something had to be done, but the initial production of M16s was very problematic.

I think that's my issue with some of our military spending. There are so many examples of dud systems that get too far because of pork in the procurement and too much vested interest that testers play with the results to continue development. (the Osprey, the York anti-air, fudging the Patriot missile hit rate, etc.)

[dave thompson]

The M-16 was troublesome when it first came out. The problems were worked out both in the field and on the bench. The ammo was changed, features were added and through experience the the M-16/M-4 has become an extraordinarily good battle rifle. What it offers over, say the AK47/74 is accuracy, in the hands of a trained rifleman, as well as reliability and versatility.

[93legendti]

The M-16 was troublesome when it first came out. The problems were worked out both in the field and on the bench. The ammo was changed, features were added and through experience the the M-16/M-4 has become an extraordinarily good battle rifle. What it offers over, say the AK47/74 is accuracy, in the hands of a trained rifleman, as well as reliability and versatility.

Not only that, a Kalach bullet (as my IDF friends call it) goes in straight and usually comes out straight. I saw my friend's Kalach scars. He is an IDF version of a Navy Seal (Shayetet 13). He was shot under 1 arm and it came out under the other arm. He was wearing a "flak" vest, but they have holes for the arms. he said if it had been an M-16, or flat top bullet he would have been dead, because the M series bullets go in and turn and twist.

The Special Forces (and tankers) guys in the IDF loved the Kalach because it could be abused, gotten wet, dirty, sandy, etc and still worked. On a Special Ops mission you do not always have time to clean you weapon.

[Jeff N.]

I've always been a fan of the MG-42. I understand it's still in use today in some countries. Jeff N.

[Onno]

There must be a guns and ammo forum somewhere, no? I find this stuff repellent and about as far from the zen of bikes as one can get.

[itsflantastic]

.

[JohnS]

I've always been a fan of the MG-42. I understand it's still in use today in some countries. Jeff N.
The Germans use it as the MG3.

[JohnS]

There must be a guns and ammo forum somewhere, no? I find this stuff repellent and about as far from the zen of bikes as one can get.Then don't read it. How are guns any different than talking about food, beers, wines, pottery, travel or any of the myriad other discussions we've had around here?

[Onno]

Then don't read it. How are guns any different than talking about food, beers, wines, pottery, travel or any of the myriad other discussions we've had around here?
Your question staggers the mind. You really don't understand the difference between guns and those other good things? I guess I'm responding not just to this thread, but to the repeated references on this forum, joking and serious, to weapons of continual destruction. America's obsession with weapons is a sickness, and it's sad to see symptoms of it on a forum dedicated to discussion of something I take to be essentially healthy and joyful--bikes.

And, since you asked, it also seems to me utterly obvious that whatever your ideas or passions about guns, they are an inflammatory topic, utterly unlike the others you list. And this is another reason they are OT in a way that strikes me as inappropriate for this forum. Guns are the opposite of harmless.

[JohnS]

Your question staggers the mind. You really don't understand the difference between guns and those other good things? I guess I'm responding not just to this thread, but to the repeated references on this forum, joking and serious, to weapons of continual destruction. America's obsession with weapons is a sickness, and it's sad to see symptoms of it on a forum dedicated to discussion of something I take to be essentially healthy and joyful--bikes.

And, since you asked, it also seems to me utterly obvious that whatever your ideas or passions about guns, they are an inflammatory topic, utterly unlike the others you list. And this is another reason they are OT in a way that strikes me as inappropriate for this forum. Guns are the opposite of harmless.Wow, you sure are ignorant. I don't know where to start... Why are discussing our military's weapons, that are used to defend you, so abhorent to you? We aren't even talking about civilian gun ownership or the 2nd Amendment or any of the usual lightning rods.
The next time I talk to that reactionary right winger EddieF, I'll chastise him for starting this dreadful thread and offending your sensibilities.

[Kevan]

back to back. There now...here your guns. Now at the count of ten, turn and fire. Okay...let's start. One....two....three...four....five....six....seven ...eight...OOPS!

I forgot to fill them with water first.

[JohnS]

Your question staggers the mind. You really don't understand the difference between guns and those other good things? I guess I'm responding not just to this thread, but to the repeated references on this forum, joking and serious, to weapons of continual destruction. America's obsession with weapons is a sickness, and it's sad to see symptoms of it on a forum dedicated to discussion of something I take to be essentially healthy and joyful--bikes.

And, since you asked, it also seems to me utterly obvious that whatever your ideas or passions about guns, they are an inflammatory topic, utterly unlike the others you list. And this is another reason they are OT in a way that strikes me as inappropriate for this forum. Guns are the opposite of harmless.
That's what I like about some academics...they are just soooo openminded. :p

[Fat Robert]

one of the three guys in this burg who will willingly ride with me was a Green Beret in Vietnam. Just for the conversation, he gives the Thompson M1A1 two jungle thumbs up. Said it was his favorite, hands down.

fwiw, he rides a lugged SL Merckx with downtube shifters.

[csm]

I read most of the posts about the upcoming presidential election. I didn't respond.
I read alcohol-related posts. sometimes I respond.
here's the thing onno, alcohol-related deaths far outnumber gun-related deaths.
I guess the key is responsibility.

[rwsaunders]

I read most of the posts about the upcoming presidential election. I didn't respond.
I read alcohol-related posts. sometimes I respond.
here's the thing onno, alcohol-related deaths far outnumber gun-related deaths.
I guess the key is responsibility.

I'm in a +1 mood today.

[david]

this is a thread in search of a lock. ;)

[dave thompson]

Your question staggers the mind. You really don't understand the difference between guns and those other good things? I guess I'm responding not just to this thread, but to the repeated references on this forum, joking and serious, to weapons of continual destruction. America's obsession with weapons is a sickness, and it's sad to see symptoms of it on a forum dedicated to discussion of something I take to be essentially healthy and joyful--bikes.

And, since you asked, it also seems to me utterly obvious that whatever your ideas or passions about guns, they are an inflammatory topic, utterly unlike the others you list. And this is another reason they are OT in a way that strikes me as inappropriate for this forum. Guns are the opposite of harmless.
Onno:

Respectfully; firearms may be inflammatory to you and not necessarily to others. Firearms can be evil and deadly or things of exquisite beauty and craftsmanship. I like firearms as pieces of very interesting machinery and I don't feel that I'm a bad or evil person for doing so. We're all different and your mileage may vary. I think it boils down to an individual's own perspective.

[DukeHorn]

First off, I'm pretty liberal on social issues and the environment, but I wrote my undergraduate thesis on Vietnam War films and did graduate work in military history while getting my law degree.

There's quite a difference between the glorification of war and violence and a discussion of rifles.

It's one thing to do generic "bush-bashing", but if we could point out the excesses of ignoring your own commanders in deriving your force projections or having no reconstruction plan while attempting to construct an entirely new political system, I think the debate regarding the invasion of Iraq would be more constructive (but maybe I'm dreaming about that as well).

[Bill Bove]

Wow, I am Mr. Left Wing over here but I find nothing wrong with talking about guns. Guns are mechanical art just like bikes. Don't trot out that lame whine about guns being meant to kill. Guns don't kill people, criminals with guns kill people, just like knives, cars and fatty foods do, all when they are misused.

Now to move myself back over to the left.
I don't hunt. It's easier to go to Food World and buy it.
I don't own a gun. See above.
I do not feel the need to defend myself with a gun. Most violence done to innocent victims is completely random and I don't think a gun would prevent it from happening to me.

[C5 Snowboarder]

Onno:

Respectfully; firearms may be inflammatory to you and not necessarily to others. Firearms can be evil and deadly or things of exquisite beauty and craftsmanship. I like firearms as pieces of very interesting machinery and I don't feel that I'm a bad or evil person for doing so. We're all different and your mileage may vary. I think it boils down to an individual's own perspective.


These are some of my favorites - exquisite beauty as you say Dave.

:beer:

[JohnS]

Where did you get that Ruger #1? I used to have one in 7mm Rem Mag with a 2-7X Redfield Widefield just like it. I think the serial # ended in 24971...

[C5 Snowboarder]

JohnS
That is a .375H&H Mag in the Ruger #1. special stock with a check peice- not found on factory #1s and a special turned down barrel for lighter wieght.

[Pete Serotta]

Please lets stay civil with each other.....Guns and war are emotional issues BUT personal attacks are emotional and rude.


Lets respect each others right to their "likes" and opinions. That is what makes our country what it is. (yeah I know we have some warts and pimples but it is still a pretty good place) ;)

THanks...

[dave thompson]

JohnS
That is a .375H&H Mag in the Ruger #1. special stock with a check peice- not found on factory #1s and a special turned down barrel for lighter wieght.
.375 H&H eh? There must be some very big cats on the east side of Lake Washington!

[JohnS]

JohnS
That is a .375H&H Mag in the Ruger #1. special stock with a check peice- not found on factory #1s and a special turned down barrel for lighter wieght.
Just what I want, a lighter weight 375...no thanks :no:

[Jeff N.]

.375 H&H eh? There must be some very big cats on the east side of Lake Washington!See there? Holland bikes, Holland & Holland rifles!.........and there's no realtion between guns and bikes, huh...................Jeff N.

[JohnS]

See there? Holland bikes, Holland & Holland rifles!.........and there's no realtion between guns and bikes, huh...................Jeff N.Both REALLY expensive...

[e-RICHIE]

http://bard.asteroidblues.com/013006twizzlers.jpg

[C5 Snowboarder]

.375 H&H eh? There must be some very big cats on the east side of Lake Washington!

Ya just never know when you may have to go thru a 10" tree. Eh? :beer:

[J.Greene]

.

[e-RICHIE]

tasty atmo.
worth fighting over -


http://www.mandolasmarket.com/images/pastries1.jpg

[J.Greene]

.

[rnhood]

More treats worth fighting over (http://reviews.mtbr.com/interbike/)

[gt6267a]

tasty atmo.
worth fighting over -


http://www.mandolasmarket.com/images/pastries1.jpg


not considering that everything in the case hates me ... i will fight for the chef, you can have pastries.

[mdeeds71]

OK I have very little to contribute from the previous pictures...

But I have operated with the M16A1/A2, M4A2, AK47, AK74, M249, M120 etc. all depending on mission requirements or what was available.

I have and always will say the M4 is a great all around weapon but lacks in certain areas.

I would choose a MP5SD for room clearing due to rate of fire and size as well as quantity of ammo that can be carried vs M4 but the Army standard weapon is the M4 and only those in special operations can get the MP5.

The AK47 is the best weapon for deep operations since its ammo is widely available and parts are easily found (if you ever need them). To be blunt it is the most dependable assault rifle out there. It is not as accurate but that can be mitigated with the user. The number one reason I would and have chosen the AK is that it is very distinct in its signature when fired thus it cannot be differentiated easily in most countries when engaging.

The M249 is great but needs proper maintenance and is a little large to use in urban environments. For the record...most of the 249s used by the US military are not FN but contracted out. They were the design company but turned over the manufacturing to a us company who actually stamps or used to FN on them.

If you need other info PM me.

[JohnS]

For the record...most of the 249s used by the US military are not FN but contracted out. They were the design company but turned over the manufacturing to a us company who actually stamps or used to FN on them.

Actually, FN set up a US plant, just like SIG, Glock and Beretta.

[Jeff N.]

OK I have very little to contribute from the previous pictures...

But I have operated with the M16A1/A2, M4A2, AK47, AK74, M249, M120 etc. all depending on mission requirements or what was available.

I have and always will say the M4 is a great all around weapon but lacks in certain areas.

I would choose a MP5SD for room clearing due to rate of fire and size as well as quantity of ammo that can be carried vs M4 but the Army standard weapon is the M4 and only those in special operations can get the MP5.

The AK47 is the best weapon for deep operations since its ammo is widely available and parts are easily found (if you ever need them). To be blunt it is the most dependable assault rifle out there. It is not as accurate but that can be mitigated with the user. The number one reason I would and have chosen the AK is that it is very distinct in its signature when fired thus it cannot be differentiated easily in most countries when engaging.

The M249 is great but needs proper maintenance and is a little large to use in urban environments. For the record...most of the 249s used by the US military are not FN but contracted out. They were the design company but turned over the manufacturing to a us company who actually stamps or used to FN on them.

If you need other info PM me.While miltary war weapons have their niche, it is fine, preposterously powerful handguns that garner most of my interest, like Linebaugh, Bowen or Freedom Arms revolvers. Jeff N.

[JohnS]

While miltary war weapons have their niche, it is fine, preposterously powerful handguns that garner most of my interest, like Linebaugh, Bowen or Freedom Arms revolvers. Jeff N.Your wrists aren't going to like you in a few years. :no:

[shinomaster]

i've had no interest in guns. there's a glock up in my closet someplace because it was left to me by my father.

if we have to do war, why not do it with the right equipment? saw a news piece today that would suggest this rifle is way better than the stuff we put in the hands of our fighters.

if true, it sickens me to puking that our guys fight with a 50 year old p.o.s. when we could put superior technology in their hands.

http://www.ultimaxsaw.com/

as george would say, god bless america.

Don't other nations, like Saudi Arabia, have a more advanced version of the M1 battle tank? Our army doesn't always have the best.

[JohnS]

Don't other nations, like Saudi Arabia, have a more advanced version of the M1 battle tank? Our army doesn't always have the best.
No.

[dave thompson]

Don't other nations, like Saudi Arabia, have a more advanced version of the M1 battle tank? Our army doesn't always have the best.
Nope. The M1A1 Abrams is the best battle tank in the world, and we have it.

[C5 Snowboarder]

While miltary war weapons have their niche, it is fine, preposterously powerful handguns that garner most of my interest, like Linebaugh, Bowen or Freedom Arms revolvers. Jeff N.


You mean something like this?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9lzri8dn7p0

[Lifelover]

Your question staggers the mind. You really don't understand the difference between guns and those other good things? I guess I'm responding not just to this thread, but to the repeated references on this forum, joking and serious, to weapons of continual destruction. America's obsession with weapons is a sickness, and it's sad to see symptoms of it on a forum dedicated to discussion of something I take to be essentially healthy and joyful--bikes.

And, since you asked, it also seems to me utterly obvious that whatever your ideas or passions about guns, they are an inflammatory topic, utterly unlike the others you list. And this is another reason they are OT in a way that strikes me as inappropriate for this forum. Guns are the opposite of harmless.

You can't handle the truth!


Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me there. We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to.

[shinomaster]

Nope. The M1A1 Abrams is the best battle tank in the world, and we have it.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/

Nope...M1A2 is the NEW one....and we BOTH have it. :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: