price griping

[oracle]

i am curious to know what people see as the reasons behind all of the discussion about prices of things. do people not have the disposable income they used to? are they bitter about the declining dollar? jealous that some have more financial means than them?

i sell things occasionally that go for a dozen meivicis or more, and if you are in that market, then you don't really flinch. i guess i just don't understand the complaining that verges on the complainers sounding as if their rights are being violated by someone producing an 8k bike frame or a 2.5k gruppo, or 5k wheels et cetera.


thanks

[Pete Serotta]

Oracle, you bring up some very good points..... There are 1000s of viewers/posters on the forum each month. Only a small ## mention "the ever increasing price" - the question is "are they buyers" or "would they be buyers"?

If you are not a buyer than the price to some seems too high for they do not need or want it!

In regard to salary and cost - - at the MACRO level for the population - the salary is not keeping up with the COST of LIVING.

AneidaRide and Flydhest have more technical information in this area.

[fiamme red]

AneidaRide and Flydhest have more technical information in this area.Oh great... get ready for a lecture on frns. :crap: :) :cool: :rolleyes: :p ;) :D

[cmg]

don't really hear it as griping, more of an open disscussion of value.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . would be with all of these higher priced items, what percentage of the target demographic's average annual income are these items now going for? For instance, take the "average" high-end bike--if such an "average" bike can be agreed upon--and see what percentage of annual income it is.

In my case, I may have a basis. I got my Legend with F1 fork in 2001 with (at that time) the highest-end Ksyrium wheels and a full Dura Ace gruppo. It came to just over $5600. At that time it was the best that Serotta made, with the Ottrott being introduced the next year. A roughly equivalent bike could be purchased now with the Legend frame, F3 fork, and Ksyrium SL's and 10 speed DA gruppo.

I don't know exactly how much such a bike would cost, but I'd guess over $7,000. But for argument's sake let's take $7k as the figure. That would be a 25% increase in 6 years, or 4.16% a year. Not outrageously above inflation.

But a more telling piece of info to me would be that, nice as this bike is, it is no longer the "top of the line" for Serotta by any means. You can now spend considerably more than that for an Ottrott or Meivici.

To me, the growth in the top end of offerings by many companies is more the issue than any particular price increase. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Many companies are seeing the spending power out there and are trying to grab a piece of the market. I can think of several companies that still offer the same equivalent models as they did 6 years ago, but as with Serotta they have now aded models above that old "top of the line" price point. It's those models that are going to be a far higher percentage of an average buyer's annual income.

So the net effect is that the wealth required to afford "top of the line" models now is greater than before and a smaller percentage of the population is capable of affording them. But that doesn't surprise me. The concentration of more and more of the aggregate wealth in this country into the hands of a smaller and smaller percentage of the population has been going on for many years and shows no signs of abating.

BBD

[Sandy]

Wise oracle, I will answer for myself. I have made more than my share of comments about Serotta's pricing, from the Ottrott to the MeiVici to the CDA.

You sell whatever you sell at whatever price that you want/need/are able to sell it for. Likewise for Serotta. Potential customers buy it or they do not. Seems pretty simple. We could simply stop there. My thoughts have always been on value compared to what there is in the market place at prices significantly less, my present concern that there is increased US and foreign competition for Serotta's share of its market niche, and the possibility that Serotta might be changing the structure of how it sells its frames and framesets which some potential Serotta buyers might not find acceptable.As Serotta increases its prices, I wonder if more potential Serotta customers will simply say no way...just too much money...more so than have thought that in the past.

No jealousy, or violation of rights, or bitterness from me. Simply a concern about escalating Serotta prices, relative to what others are offering and a possible potential decrease in sales in Serotta's own limited niche market. A concern for other cyclists who may simply not be able to afford a Serotta but who really want one.

I will only pay up to a certain amount for a tuna fish sandwich, after which I think that it is simply not worth it, no matter how tasty. An American cheese sandwich with lots of cheese on fresh rye will still taste good and fill me up. I would consider a MeiVici SE , but am simply not willing to spend the $8,400 for the frameset. The lower priced MeiVici is a consideration, maybe. I own a 2004 Serotta Ottrott ST. It costs fully equipped with Dura-Ace 10, nice handbuilt wheels,.,.. for way under the price of a new 2007 MeiVici frameset.



Sandy

[Sandy]

Oracle, you bring up some very good points..... There are 1000s of viewers/posters on the forum each month. Only a small ## mention "the ever increasing price" - the question is "are they buyers" or "would they be buyers"?

If you are not a buyer than the price to some seems too high for they do not need or want it!

In regard to salary and cost - - at the MACRO level for the population - the salary is not keeping up with the COST of LIVING.

AneidaRide and Flydhest have more technical information in this area.

Pete- None of us need a Serotta. None of us. But there are lots of cyclists who post or view this forum that really want one, but they won't get one as they simply cannot afford one, plain and simple.


Sandy

[BumbleBeeDave]

We've got the tuna sandwich reference! How many more forum cliches can we squeeze into this one thread? ;)

We should be able to get aquite a few, uh, "atmo." :rolleyes:

Ahneida Ride, paging head "FRN'er" Ahneida ride! . . . :beer:

BBD

[Pete Serotta]

Sandy, while bikes will ride different, none will ride better than your OTTROTT!!


Wise oracle, I will answer for myself. I have made more than my share of comments about Serotta's pricing, from the Ottrott to the MeiVici to the CDA.

You sell whatever you sell at whatever price that you want/need/are able to sell it for. Likewise for Serotta. Potential customers buy it or they do not. Seems pretty simple. We could simply stop there. My thoughts have always been on value compared to what there is in the marketplace at prices significantly less money, my present concern that there is increased US and foreign competition for Serotta's share of its market niche, and the possibility that Serotta might be changing the structure of how it sells its frames and framesets which some potential Serotta buyers might not find acceptable.As Serotta increases its prices, I wonder if more potential Serotta customers will simply say no way...just too much money...more so than have thought that in the past.

No jealousy, or violation of rights, or bitterness from me. Simply a concern about escalating Serotta prices, relative to what others are offering and a possible potential decrease in sales in Serotta's own limited niche market. A concern for other cyclists who may simply not be able to afford a Serotta but who really want one.

I will only pay up to a certain amount for a tuna fish sandwich, after which I think that it is simply not worth it, no matter how tasty. An American cheese sandwich with lots of cheese on fresh rye will still tast good and fill me up. I would consider a MeiVici SE , but am simply not willing to spend the $8,400 for the frameset. The lower priced MeiVici is a consideration, maybe. I own a 2004 Serotta Ottrott ST. It costs fully equipped with Dura-Ace 10, nice handbuilt wheels,.,.. for way under the price of a new MeiVici frameset.



Sandy

[crossjunkee]

I will only pay up to a certain amount for a tuna fish sandwich, after which I think that it is simply not worth it, no matter how tasty. An American cheese sandwich with lots of cheese on fresh rye will still taste good and fill me up.


I like that!

[shinomaster]

Oracle...I just bought a $500 Shimaoka tea cup. :confused:

[oracle]

bottom one in the middle - nice. how about a close up? that seems cheap if you ask me...

[itsflantastic]

Oracle...I just bought a $500 Shimaoka tea cup. :confused:

um, can I borrow a few bucks? :rolleyes:

[shinomaster]

I bought it from the Kura off trocadero.com The guy gave me a super deal...it even has a signed stamped box. I've never seen one with glaze like this. I've wanted one for the past ten years...

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . does it have cinnamon roll sugar dripped all over it?

BBD

[itsflantastic]

nice!!!

are you actually going to drink tea from it? or is it strictly functioning as art?

[oracle]

that's a beautiful tea bowl - i'd love to see the box as well. do you know the item's provenance, if the box matches the bowl et c.?

folks, shinomaster just got the meivici of tea bowls for usd500.00 and that is not something that you can gripe about.

[jsfoster]

Nice Collection. Mine is mostly packed up for the moment, but I just had a cup of matcha. Look at and use is my theory, same for bikes.
-Jon

[shinomaster]

that's a beautiful tea bowl - i'd love to see the box as well. do you know the item's provenance, if the box matches the bowl et c.?

folks, shinomaster just got the meivici of tea bowls for usd500.00 and that is not something that you can gripe about.


Actually It is a yunomi (tea cup) rather than a chawan (tea bowl)...I would have had this one too but some bastard beat me to it....
http://www.trocadero.com/Oceanica/items/691238/item691238.html

[Ginger]

People who really want a particular thing don't complain about the price.
People who know they can't afford a particular thing rarely complain about the price.
People who live in the past complain about the price.
People who only think they want something complain about the price.
People who feel entitled complain about the price.

And Ahneida wisely complains about FRNs instead of price.


If a bike company/builder is only supposed to build bikes (widgets, whatever) that everyone can afford to buy we stifle creativity and innovation. That creativity and innovation brings interesting concepts into the world that if valid, trickle down to bikes I can afford. :)

ymmv

Ginger

[shinomaster]

Oracle I don't know the history . I bought it from a Japanese antiques dealer, who didn't know. The box seems to be original, and it fits the hefty cup quite well.

[Ginger]

that is a beautiful bowl Shino and if I make it to Portland I'd love to see the rest of your collection in person!

(there isn't a dancing duck...so you get...a banana!)
:banana:

[oracle]

People who really want a particular thing don't complain about the price.
People who know they can't afford a particular thing rarely complain about the price.
People who live in the past complain about the price.
People who only think they want something complain about the price.
People who feel entitled complain about the price.

And Ahneida wisely complains about FRNs instead of price.


If a bike company/builder is only supposed to build bikes (widgets, whatever) that everyone can afford to buy we stifle creativity and innovation. That creativity and innovation brings interesting concepts into the world that if valid, trickle down to bikes I can afford. :)

ymmv

Ginger



nicely put, ginger

[shinomaster]

Centaur is the Record of four years ago...maybe even better. I just want the NEW Shamals...and the dollar sucks right now compared to the Euro....And I just spent all my money on a stupid ceramic Dixi cup.

[oracle]

Centaur is the Record of four years ago...maybe even better. I just want the NEW Shamals...and the dollar sucks right now compared to the Euro....And I just spent all my money on a stupid ceramic Dixi cup.

the tea wouldn't taste as good


p.s. can you tell if HE actually made it?

[DukeHorn]

I haven't participated in the pricing discussion but I'll throw out my 2 cents worth.

A Serotta is a luxury item. The question is how much will one pay for it. Like some other folks here, I collect other things (i.e. art). It's the opportunity cost of buying a Kirk or a Landshark AND a Chagall lithograph vs. getting a Serotta.

Of course, I'm solving the problem by getting a steel frame used, but eh, some folks like new, shiny and custom.

However, talking about value is not being "jealous" or not being able to afford the price point, as some folks tend to think.

I've been asked multiple times why I drive a Mazda3 hatchback when I can easily afford something "nicer". I don't see the need to follow the other lemming attorneys.

Remember most millionaires here in the US became that way by purchasing for "value"........Living beyond your means just seems to be something that a lot of Americans have embraced the last few years.

[shinomaster]

I doubt he made this piece....

[oracle]

are the new shamals not simply gold colored eurus wheels?

[1centaur]

I think we talk about price because it's interesting re: both economics and marketing. If somebody sold a tuna sandwich for $10k would we not talk about price because of all the things Ginger listed? (BTW - Not sure I'd call the FRN talk "wise".) We are armchair Serotta watchers, and the price of the stuff is one of the more interesting things about Serotta to watch and discuss. It gives Serotta a little feedback on what and how some of its client base thinks, and we get to watch each other work out how to live with whatever number the company hangs on its stuff.

All-American entertainment I'd say.

[MadRocketSci]

when you (greenspan) flood the economy with liquidity, you have more dollars and credit chasing the same amount of goods. It's not like there are many more builders like serotta popping up increasing supply. Hence the price increases with the amount of credit injected. The past few years we haven't been making as much money by working and producing, but rather by buying and selling real estate. When you price things in terms of something that behaves like money, such as gold, rather than currency, like the dollar, then things don't seem as out of whack. If you take the recent prices of serottas in terms of gold, which isn't diluted as quickly by production, you may find that they haven't gone up much at all.

Internationally, the FRN's are seen more and more as "funny money."

[xlbs]

We Canadians can now buy a Serotta for 30% less than we could about 2 years ago. Currency fluctuations mean that one Canadian $ is now virtually equal to one US$. For the first time in 30 years we can buy US made bicycles for the "same" money that you folks have been buying them for years. For us, this is bargain city!

[davids]

People who really want a particular thing don't complain about the price.
People who know they can't afford a particular thing rarely complain about the price.
People who live in the past complain about the price.
People who only think they want something complain about the price.
People who feel entitled complain about the price.

And Ahneida wisely complains about FRNs instead of price.


If a bike company/builder is only supposed to build bikes (widgets, whatever) that everyone can afford to buy we stifle creativity and innovation. That creativity and innovation brings interesting concepts into the world that if valid, trickle down to bikes I can afford. :)

ymmv

Ginger
I was with you up to the FRNs. Fractional Reserve Banking is Macro-econ 101, atmo...

[CNY rider]

We Canadians can now buy a Serotta for 30% less than we could about 2 years ago. !


Hasn't made me real happy about my soon to be delivered Canadian Mariposa......

Oh well. :fight:

[stevep]

money.
like when we went into afghanistan and flooded the place with american currency in $100 denominations only.
a cup of coffee in afghanistan cost $100...cause that was all they had.

perfect. operation run by idiots.

[shinomaster]

Stevep...that coffee cup will cost you $100 this week.

[vaxn8r]

People who really want a particular thing don't complain about the price.
People who know they can't afford a particular thing rarely complain about the price.
People who live in the past complain about the price.
People who only think they want something complain about the price.
People who feel entitled complain about the price.

And Ahneida wisely complains about FRNs instead of price.


If a bike company/builder is only supposed to build bikes (widgets, whatever) that everyone can afford to buy we stifle creativity and innovation. That creativity and innovation brings interesting concepts into the world that if valid, trickle down to bikes I can afford. :)

ymmv

Ginger
Ginger, I would addd one corollary:

People who equate price with performance complain about price.

Price/performance. There is a general relationship, especially to a point (for complete bikes around $1,600-$3,200) but it's negligible beyond that point. Everything else is ego. ATMO. Yeah, I'm looking in the mirror.

[shinomaster]

Ginger, I would addd one corollary:

People who equate price with performance complain about price.

Price/performance. There is a general relationship, especially to a point (for complete bikes around $1,600-$3,200) but it's negligible beyond that point. Everything else is ego. ATMO. Yeah, I'm looking in the mirror.


can I have your bike then?

[Ti Designs]

i am curious to know what people see as the reasons behind all of the discussion about prices of things. do people not have the disposable income they used to? are they bitter about the declining dollar? jealous that some have more financial means than them?


Disposable income???

[Big Dan]

What's wrong with questioning prices?
I question everything............


:p

[stevep]

Stevep...that coffee cup will cost you $100 this week.

all i have is $1.00

ill send you a photo of it.

[deechee]

I'm sore because if I remember correctly, my CIII was 1395$ when I bought it 4 years ago? A 35% markup is pretty remarkable considering my salary has probably gone down since then. Its just a matter of what I believe an item is worth. I don't know if the bike I bought four years ago is worth 500$ more already. (Materials are the same, tooling is, etc. inflation isn't THAT much) But hey, like everyone says, if Serotta can prosper, so be it.

And yes, I am jealous of you folks that have "stables" of bikes. Not that I know your stories/how hard you worked for it/how old you are. So I'm complaining. Big deal. Its a forum.

I'm just voicing to Serotta that had the CIII been closer to 1500$, with the cdn$ as strong as it is, I would've been seriously tempted to get another as an impulse buy. But I guess the money will just end up towards that leather sofa my gf and I want... right now the sofa is worth more to me than another bike. That's all.

[Sandy]

all i have is $1.00

ill send you a photo of it.

Will you put it in a $50 frame before you send it? :rolleyes:


Picture Perfect,


Shutterbug Sandy

[stevep]

Will you put it in a $50 frame before you send it? :rolleyes:


Picture Perfect,


Shutterbug Sandy


and ill include a coupon good for a cup of coffee in afghanistan..worth $100...so you wont feel cheated.
i'd hate for you to feel cheated.

[gdw]

I see nothing wrong with the current prices being charged for bikes, frames, and components and strongly encourage everyone to buy whatever they please. In fact you should buy as much as you desire and can afford. Fill up your garages, cellars, closets, barns, etc with all the high priced gear that can be crammed in. Your purchases are good for the economy, bike industry, and me because I'll buy your old toys in a few years for about a third, maybe less, of the what you paid for them. Low miles, professionally maintained, never raced......owned by a weekend cyclist who only rode it to the coffee shop..... :banana: :banana:

[csm]

lemming attorneys? b/c they choose to spend their money differently by driving a higher end car than a mazda3? they may well say the same thing about the trek's or d-dales that they ride vs something custom or higher end.
I look at it as it is only money. I can make more. in fact, I am turning the printer on now.

[MadRocketSci]

I'm sore because if I remember correctly, my CIII was 1395$ when I bought it 4 years ago? A 35% markup is pretty remarkable considering my salary has probably gone down since then. Its just a matter of what I believe an item is worth. I don't know if the bike I bought four years ago is worth 500$ more already. (Materials are the same, tooling is, etc. inflation isn't THAT much) But hey, like everyone says, if Serotta can prosper, so be it.



Inflation isn't that much? I guess so, if you believe government figures such as the core cpi. Unfortunately, they don't include price increases in energy (oil), food, many commodities, and home prices, which have all shot up in four years. In the classic austrian sense, inflation is the rate of growth of the money supply, which has been so large that the FED has stopped releasing figures for it (M3). We have a huge trade deficit, huge debt to other nations, so as a result, we are watering down our own currency to reduce the real buying power of other nation's holdings of our debt. Again, more currency for the same stuff = higher currency prices for the same goods. If home values can go up at such high rates, why can't anything else if we aren't really that much more productive???

Your salary isn't going up because even though there are more dollars in existence, they are being sent to other countries for them to produce the goods we consume. We can continue this charade as long as they just hold on and save them....if they start dumping then look out, a 35% increase in bike prices is the least of our worries.

[vaxn8r]

can I have your bike then?
Sorry. I need all of them. :rolleyes:

[regularguy412]

Inflation isn't that much? I guess so, if you believe government figures such as the cpi. Unfortunately, they don't include price increases in energy (oil), food, many commodities, and home prices, which have all shot up in four years. In the classic austrian sense, inflation is the rate of growth of the money supply, which has been so large that the FED has stopped releasing figures for it (M3). We have a huge trade deficit, huge debt to other nations, so as a result, we are watering down our own currency to reduce the real buying power of other nation's holdings of our debt. Again, more currency for the same stuff = higher currency prices for the same goods. If home values can go up at such high rates, why can't anything else if we aren't really that much more productive???

Your salary isn't going up because even though there are more dollars in existence, they are being sent to other countries for them to produce the goods we consume. We can continue this charade as long as they just hold on and save them....if they start dumping then look out, a 35% increase in bike prices is the least of our worries.

POTD !!

Mike in AR

[flydhest]

all I can say is the good lord has not created enough good Econ 101 classes.

I hope some of these posts are parody.

[DarrenCT]

We Canadians can now buy a Serotta for 30% less than we could about 2 years ago. Currency fluctuations mean that one Canadian $ is now virtually equal to one US$. For the first time in 30 years we can buy US made bicycles for the "same" money that you folks have been buying them for years. For us, this is bargain city!

can u send me some labatt blue?

u take paypal?

[djg]

all I can say is the good lord has not created enough good Econ 101 classes.



And that's why those classes are so darn expensive?

[Lifelover]

i am curious to know what people see as the reasons behind all of the discussion about prices of things. do people not have the disposable income they used to? are they bitter about the declining dollar? jealous that some have more financial means than them?

i sell things occasionally that go for a dozen meivicis or more, and if you are in that market, then you don't really flinch. i guess i just don't understand the complaining that verges on the complainers sounding as if their rights are being violated by someone producing an 8k bike frame or a 2.5k gruppo, or 5k wheels et cetera.


thanks

Some people just like to B!tch! It's a disease.

[Ti Designs]

i am curious to know what people see as the reasons behind all of the discussion about prices of things. do people not have the disposable income they used to? are they bitter about the declining dollar? jealous that some have more financial means than them?

i sell things occasionally that go for a dozen meivicis or more, and if you are in that market, then you don't really flinch. i guess i just don't understand the complaining that verges on the complainers sounding as if their rights are being violated by someone producing an 8k bike frame or a 2.5k gruppo, or 5k wheels et cetera.


I've gotten myself into a rather deep financial hole, having worked in the bicycle industry for over 20 years and taking a big hit with the divorce a few years back. As such there is no disposable income - I can't afford to eat and heat my house in the winter. I've come to grips with the fact that there are some things that just aren't for me. New car? Probably not in my lifetime. Vacation? Mostly on the bike, I can't remember when the last time I flew somewhere. But being at the bike shop for as long as I have, not being able to afford a bike kinda hurts. Most of the time it doesn't bother me, I have my bikes and I really don't need anything more. Then a few years ago I found myself without a road bike, which for me could be fatal. I hit up reps for demo bikes for a whole season, but I knew I needed my own bike. I convinced Serotta to build a custom version of the Fierte Ti which later became the La Corsa, and then had them build mine with the biggest sewer pipe of a down tube they could find. I swapped the parts from my old road bike and that's what I'll be on for as long as it works. It's just a little insulting knowing that a new version of what I have has joined the list of things I can't afford.

[Elefantino]

I was told by a very high government official that the economy is fine.

Therefore, the economy is fine.

[Sandy]

I was told by a very high government official that the economy is fine.

Therefore, the economy is fine.

So what was he using that made him get so high? I might want to try some..... :rolleyes:



Sandy

[Ray]

all I can say is the good lord has not created enough good Econ 101 classes.

I hope some of these posts are parody.
It ain't the lord, its evolution. Not creating enough good econ courses is a way of ensuring an adequate supply of suckers to keep the economy running. If most of us UNDERSTOOD this stuff, your job would be a lot harder, no? Then again, you ask 10 economists for an opinion and you get 23 opinions, so maybe we dummies are onto something.

I view the whole phenomenon of price threads similarly to average speed threads. How much is too much? How fast is too fast? Fast enough?

The running joke is that the road (bikes, cars, take your pick) is filled with idiots and maniacs. Anyone driving slower than you is an idiot and anyone going faster is a maniac. Anyone RIDING faster is a pseudo racer-boy (must be said with dripping contempt) and anyone riding slower is a Fred, particularly if they're riding a decent bike.

Same thing with price. Anyone who spends more on a bike than I do is crazy and anyone who spends less just doesn't understand that you have to pay for quality. My bike cost me FAR MORE than I ever expected to pay for a bike. It's a custom Spectrum fit and designed by TK hisownself and it's PERFECT. My wife, like most folks who aren't into bikes, would think I was out of my mind if she knew how much it cost. But its chump change compared to some of the bikes we discuss around here.

Since it represents cycling perfection in my little world, I've concluded that you'd have to be out of your mind to pay more. But if you're not willing to pay as much, you just don't understand the importance of quality.

So just go ride your bike and buy the best bike that makes sense to you.

-Ray

[sspielman]

all I can say is the good lord has not created enough good Econ 101 classes.

I hope some of these posts are parody.

My economics professor was very fond of saying that economics was common sense with numbers. I am the first to admit that common sense is a rare commodity these days...but people who have it know when they are being lied to. On occasion, I stumble across programs on one of the news channels that feature a panel of "economists"....4 or 5......and they NEVER can agree about what is happening with the economy. Since these people are trained in numerical common sense, I am left to conclude that they really know what is happening, but have an agenda to tell a different version...in other words, lie. That would explain the arguing as well.....people tend to get upset with somebody either telling or knowing the truth when the position they are promoting is something else....

[Elefantino]

So what was he using that made him get so high? I might want to try some..... :rolleyes:



Sandy
I don't know. He mentioned something about "the 10th Mountain Division is my supplier."

http://www.teachnet.ie/stpats2004/smoking01708732/images/bush_smoke2%5B1%5D.gif

[flydhest]

I am left to conclude that they really know what is happening, but have an agenda to tell a different version...in other words, lie. That would explain the arguing as well...

ding, ding, ding . . . we have a winner. This is why I spent time in my classes taking up common debates from the headlines and pointing out who was lying and how. One of the best things an econ professor can do is to give a BS detector to their students.

Ray,
Quite honestly, my job would be a lot easier if people were actually sensible and understood a bit more of the world around them.

[tch]

I can only speak for myself -- and I haven't complained about prices here, though I certainly do secretly. For me, it has to do with discrepancy. I bought my wife a Specialized Roubaix Comp this summer for $2,000. It's not perfect -- but it's a pretty good tool. I've ridden it and I prefer my Serotta. But whereas the difference b/w this quality bike and my Concours was about $1,500 when I bought my Serotta, the gap between this bike and the 2008 Serotta has gotten MUCH larger.

In the mass-produced world, quality has gone up while price has stayed the same, or even gone down (I couldn't have bought the equivalent bike for myself 6 years ago for $2,000). Meanwhile, price in the small-build world has escalated rather dramatically -- and I'm not absolutely convinced that the quality of a 2008 Concours is that much better than a 2002 Concours.

So...price is an issue for me.

[vaxn8r]

Ray, save this one and dust it off for the next time this topic gets rehashed.

+1

[DukeHorn]

yes, lemming attorneys.

when the peer pressure (in Dallas) is that attorneys working at the big firms need to buy BMWs when they're over 100k in debt and they do so, what would you call it?? Independence? I kid you not, I had a 4 cylinder Isuzu Trooper when I got out of law school and while I paid off my debt, folks kept on wondering why I didn't have a european car yet.

So when you see folks driving 50k+ cars and complaining they don't have a money for a downpayment on a home, what's the train of thought? Keep on spending, it's good for the economy?

[JohnS]

I thought peer pressure went away after high school?

[DukeHorn]

You'd think so but I've found Dallas and LA to be quite different from other cities in terms of "keeping up with the joneses" :)

[sg8357]

I thought peer pressure went away after high school?

Instead of Tiger Beat telling you what to do,
the Robb Report and Dub Magazine take over.

Scott G.
Who uses Aviation Week as his lifestyle guide.

[slowgoing]

You'd think so but I've found Dallas and LA to be quite different from other cities in terms of "keeping up with the joneses" :)

Add the SF bay area and DC to the list. And NY. It's at the top of the list.

[e-RICHIE]

Instead of Tiger Beat telling you what to do,
the Robb Report and Dub Magazine take over.

Scott G.
Who uses Aviation Week as his lifestyle guide.
that's funny.
i took all three titles over the years.
dub rules atmo.

[Fixed]

http://www.tvparty.com/shindig.html

gogo

cheers

[djg]

yes, lemming attorneys.



So...not to be dense, but are lemming attorneys attorneys who represent lemmings or attorneys who are themselves lemmings?

[JohnS]

Attorneys who represent lemmings only do class-action lawsuits! :banana: :banana: :banana: