Attack Gone???

[cleavel]

Hi,

Has Serotta discontinued the Attack? I noticed it's not an option on their web site anymore.

[Smiley]

MeiVici GS ! What's in a name anyway :banana:

[cleavel]

MeiVici GS ! What's in a name anyway :banana:
Hi,

No worries about a name. :) Where does one find out about the 2008 lineup changes? :confused:

[slowgoing]

MeiVici GS ! What's in a name anyway :banana:

There must be a corresponding MeiVici-like price bump too, huh? :)

[Smiley]

There must be a corresponding MeiVici-like price bump too, huh? :)
MieVici GS = $ 5590
MeiVici SE = $ 8405

Frame and fork combo prices, The GS has more Aluminum bits on it with S1 fork and limited paint and finish options yaddi yaddi yaddi ... a GREAT value IMHO.

[Climb01742]

MieVici GS = $ 5590
MeiVici SE = $ 8405

Frame and fork combo prices, The GS has more Aluminum bits on it with S1 fork and limited paint and fiish options yaddi yaddi yaddi ... a GREAT value IMHO.

smiley, i admire your loyalty, but while a stock meivici may be many things -- even great perhaps -- i'm not sure it qualifies as "great" value. :rolleyes:

[Sandy]

smiley, i admire your loyalty, but while a stock meivici may be many things -- even great perhaps -- i'm not sure it qualifies as "great" value. :rolleyes:

I'll go a step further. I love you Smiley. I couldn't have a better friend. But it is a push to say "Great value". It does make me look at the possibility of an all carbon custom Serotta. Perhaps a GREAT frameset, but you can't ride a frameset. You need the wheels, components,.....So a whole bike might be say $8,000 or so. Assuredly, a great bike, but.......



Not so GREAT,


Sandy

[Sandy]

I still think that Serotta should consider a non-custom carbon bike more for the masses- A superior carbon bike with a Serotta design, made in the USA, using the assets of its new plant. A---quietly said---price point --carbon bike that would allow Serotta to expand its market. It wouldn't even have to use the Serotta name. The HSG is too aggressively designed for many potential carbon bike purchasers, and the MeiVici creations are simply too expensive for so many. Overseas and USA competition is here and will only get more intense for Serotta.


Just ordinary and not custom,


Serotta Sandy

[Climb01742]

I still think that Serotta should consider a non-custom carbon bike more for the masses- A superior carbon bike with a Serotta design, made in the USA, using the assets of its new plant. A---quietly said---price point --carbon bike that would allow Serotta to expand its market. It wouldn't even have to use the Serotta name. The HSG is too aggressively designed for many potential carbon bike purchasers, and the MeiVici creations are simply too expensive for so many. Overseas and USA competition is here and will only get more intense for Serotta.


Just ordinary and not custom,


Serotta Sandy

+1
sandy, you and i may be in the minority here, but selling to a broader market -- not the cheap end but certainly the middle -- would seem to make sense. cervelo is killing it, sales-wise, according to retailers i've talked to. there are a number of reasons, but their "reasonable" prices are a big part. but this is all conjecture. time will tell. i'll be quite interested to see where serotta is in 5 to 10 years.

[1centaur]

At $5,590 for frame and fork that IS a price point CF Serotta given the Pinarello Prince at $5,000 or the TIME VXRS in that range. If price is used as a marketing tool, that price is saying "for just a few hundred more you can have..." If Serotta made a stock $4,000 frameset to go against a Look 595 at $3,695 would it have enough differentiating points vs. the $5,000 frame to avoid cannibalizing sales? Most potential buyers would fit stock geos and figure the Serotta magic is in the tube creating and joining so why pay the extra grand?

I think 2 choices, better and best, keeps the exclusivity theme going, and, as Len J said elsewhere, keeps the factory operating near capacity.

Something I think most on this board will come to accept is that the new bikes are not aimed at you. There's a lot of metal love here (not the Judas Priest kind) but Serotta's not going to try to make the claim that any metal bike they make is hot, new and better. Those were yesterday's achievements. To a certain extent the metal bikes are also price point Serottas for people with the discriminating taste and maturity not to need to chase the hot trend. Many here will have to watch that CF ship sail and, as Robin Williams said to Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting, "let it go."

[Sandy]

At $5,590 for frame and fork that IS a price point CF Serotta given the Pinarello Prince at $5,000 or the TIME VXRS in that range. If price is used as a marketing tool, that price is saying "for just a few hundred more you can have..." If Serotta made a stock $4,000 frameset to go against a Look 595 at $3,695 would it have enough differentiating points vs. the $5,000 frame to avoid cannibalizing sales? Most potential buyers would fit stock geos and figure the Serotta magic is in the tube creating and joining so why pay the extra grand?

I think 2 choices, better and best, keeps the exclusivity theme going, and, as Len J said elsewhere, keeps the factory operating near capacity.

Something I think most on this board will come to accept is that the new bikes are not aimed at you. There's a lot of metal love here (not the Judas Priest kind) but Serotta's not going to try to make the claim that any metal bike they make is hot, new and better. Those were yesterday's achievements. To a certain extent the metal bikes are also price point Serottas for people with the discriminating taste and maturity not to need to chase the hot trend. Many here will have to watch that CF ship sail and, as Robin Williams said to Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting, "let it go."

Exclusivity does not pay bills. Excellent complete carbon bikes, with very good components and wheels, are readily available for $5595 and a whole lot less.

Do we really know Serotta sales or is it just conjecture on our part? I don't, for sure. Maybe my idea is not worthwhile at all. But intense competition is here, at least for a while. Perhaps the Serotta niche market suffices, perhaps not. I guess that I am thinking out loud...I love Serottas and admire the company and simply want it to flourish in the future.


Sandy

[Dave B]

I do not disagree with all things said, but in most bike lines there are bikes at different values or price lines. Typically the more you spend the more you get...well at least in terms of technology or difficulty in processing things.

With Serotta, they make fine bikes...in every model. Not many companies do do that through out their range. I would hope that Serotta never choses to compete with huge brands as I think the lines others offer do not compare through out such vast choices.

I would think many would argue that a simple Fierte Steel would be a better bike then even some of the most expensive Specialized or Treks. Now that is in the individual person, but at least build quality and so forth.

You take a bike like the Meivici and you enter a world where few go.

Picking up an $8K frame seems beyond reality for me...even in the future, at least new built for me. Maybe a stolen used black market one found in the slums of NY where the yankees live, but i digress.

I think owning a Meivici has an exclusivity that people want to pay for. Making a lower level bike like that seems to take away from the upper end. Does it mean someone like me could get "close" possibly, but what about the owners of the "true" meivici who might feel slighted by Serotta for creating a "B" version.

I Think companies like Serotta are rare, you have a smaller company producing loads of bikes...for a smaller company. I would not want Serotta to lose its focus and begin making more and more models that dilute the specialness if you will of their past and current models.

I think of Trek when I think of that idea.

I want to own a Serotta for what it is not because I can afford it. I would rather save to get something special then to get almost.



This is also coming from a guy who does not even have a road bike right now and would pretty much ride anything he could get his hands on.

If I have learned anything from this site is that when you feel passionate about the bike you have, riding becomes something more. I think Serotta could lessen their demands with how a bike is allowed to look.

If I want a bike customized in fit and feel let me paint it any darn way I want...don't limit me to what you think is best.

Again this is from a Nut in Indiana whose daughter is crying and whose Mother has been living with his family for 8 months.

I might not be right int he head anyway! ;)

[Len J]

as the factory is full with the present line.......why would Serotta add a value line?

The only thing it would do is steal precious capacity from higher margin bikes.

Not happening anytime soon IMO.

Len

[93legendti]

So far we have had threads attacking Serotta re: the CDA and now the Attack. When will the threads complaing about the Ottrott, Legend, Meivici, Uniscasi, Fierte and HSG be posted? I know. We all love Serotta.

[Smiley]

I said and stand by my statement of a GREAT VALUE because I compare the GS to the SE in the linne up. The aluminum drop outs versus the Ti drop outs and the aluminum cable stops on the frame and the limited finish options are all things I could care less about cause IF I bought a carbone frame I would want that sucker all NUDE anyway. Additionally the 8.5 layup on the fork don't bother me one bit either.

Sandy Dandy I am waiting on that pastrami sandwich comparison soon. Hey boys and girls I rode my Hors Categorie yesterday, been off of it for about a month and guess what IT STILL ROCKS MY WORLD !!!

Hors Categorie inflation adjusted to 2007 dollars = $ 6000 in todays frns

[slowgoing]

Smiley -

I didn't mean to start this whole comparison pricing issue. I was just hoping the name change didn't bring with it a price increase. Looks like it didn't, which is good.

[soulspinner]

So far we have had threads attacking Serotta re: the CDA and now the Attack. When will the threads complaing about the Ottrott, Legend, Meivici, Uniscasi, Fierte and HSG be posted? I know. We all love Serotta.

I started the cda thread but intended it as questioning and not attacking. Their fork prices are what gets me. They charge more than MSRP for an Alpha q fork. Why? Do they x-ray it? They should be able to offer it at or below MSRP because of volume purchase. As an aside, I think the Legend with metal back end is their best value.Their price is very competitive with IF and Seven etc but do more tube manipulation and seems to be everybodys pick for the big/powerful rider who wants ti. Serotta makes great frames, the question is more fork prices and being forced to use their fork versus having a fork and having that included in the design.

[cleavel]

Hi,

I'm kind of surprised how much discussion this raised. I am very happy with the Attack frame and a little less happy with the F3 fork.

I am still curious as to how some of you know about the new lineup and pricing for 2008 (unless I'm missing a real obvious link on the web site).

As far as value, I was considering Time, Look, BMC, and Cervelo. After a lot of consideration, I bought an Attack. :D More expensive than the others, but it is custom and I could get it in my favorite color. :)

[93legendti]

I started the cda thread but intended it as questioning and not attacking. Their fork prices are what gets me. They charge more than MSRP for an Alpha q fork. Why? Do they x-ray it? They should be able to offer it at or below MSRP because of volume purchase. As an aside, I think the Legend with metal back end is their best value.Their price is very competitive with IF and Seven etc but do more tube manipulation and seems to be everybodys pick for the big/powerful rider who wants ti. Serotta makes great frames, the question is more fork prices and being forced to use their fork versus having a fork and having that included in the design.

Does the Alpha Q have ti hardware like the F3? I have 2 bikes with an Alpha Q fork and 1 F3 equipped bike and I will take the F3 everytime--it will be on my new Uniscasi as well (should be in Monday).

One Alpha Q fork, the GS10, is available in 41 and 44 mm rakes and the other, the GS30, is only available in a 44mm rake. The Alpha Q warranty is a limited 3 year warranty.

Besides the ti hardware, the F3 is available in 3 stiffnesses and up to 4 rakes: 40, 43, 47 and 52. The Serotta F3 has a lifetime warranty. The Alpha Q is a fine fork. Serotta offers it for sale as well.

[Pete Serotta]

The CDA and the Fierte are wonderful bikes for the price and compare well to the TREK. SPECIALIZED. CANNONDALE/ (This is in ride and quality).

I am sure there are lighter ones out there but then SEROTTA never was the lightest for they are built to last in the real world with a warranty backed over the years. (yeah I know the TREK and others have warranty - and I have friends that have had to use it over the years.)

The best warranty is one you never have to use!!!! :D

In these times there are many wonderful bikes out there and it is very competitive. SPECIALIZED and TREK make some wonderful bikes, BUT :cool:

Folks like SEROTTA, KIRK, SACHS, GOODRICH, HAMPSTEN, and KELLOG are what appeals to me no matter the year or time

[boissy]

what about the HSG Carbon as it is the same as the Attack but not custom!!! or is that the Meivici GS now?

[Floyd Dakil]

I bought an attack about six weeks ago. It's a white beauty with red trim. If the model has been discontinued, that makes the purchase all the more sweet. I think the Attack is (was?) a great value compared to the MeiVici. I was going to buy a Meivici, but it's not worth the extra $3,500 or so just to have certain options that don't affect the ride quality.

[Serotta_James]

The Chart that DavidS did is quite good and very accurate. For the custom models we've shrunk the number of model names we have, essentially we have one model designation to denote each material category:

MeiVicis are custom Carbon.
Ottrotts are custom Mixed Material.
Legends are Custom Ti.
Coeur d'Aciers are custom Steel.

In each of those we have two Trim Levels: SE and GS. SE are the best bike frames we can build without any consideration of cost. GS are the models that use the same essential technology and construction but for which we have developed methods for simplifying the materials sets or reducing the time required to build them, hence lowering the overall cost. Attack, Nove and Concours arent gone, per se, they're just called MeiVici GS, Ottrott GS, and Legend GS, with some changes over previous years, of course.
The La Corsa level bike didn't make the cut. Seems most folks were going up to the Concours level bike anyway.


As for stock bikes: HSG and Fierte continue on.

HSG road stock race bikes come in two flavors: Carbon and Mixed Material (IT). They're built with slightly longer, lower front ends and tighter rear triangles, as well as the stiffest tubesets we can put in them. They have new tubes this year, thanks to our California facility, and the HSG Carbon now comes in a non-sloping top tube and clear carbon finish - more traditional looking, I suppose.
Cross bikes come in steel and Ti - nothing new there.

Fiertes now come in Steel and Mixed Material (IT). Geometry remains what it has been all along - why mess with a winning formula?

Thats the best way I know how to sum it up for you. I know this will probably raise more questions than it creates answers. Feel free to ask.

James

[Sandy]

A couple of questions, please:

1. What do SE and GS stand for?

2. How does the MeiVici GS differ from the MeiVici SE? Specifically- Is the tubing different? More choice of tubes in the SE, relative to stiffness? Any differences how tubes are joined?

Thanks.


Sandy

[swoop]

super expensive
good sh1t.

[saab2000]

HSG carbon available in level top tube! :banana:

Bring on the pics and the geo specs!

FASTER! :beer:

[Avispa]

Three Questions:

I see the price increases... Are these because a) Materials b) Inflation [dilution ;)] c) To pay for the R&D d) all of the above?

Does a 2008 Model (pick one that will remain in the line, regardless of the name) would ride better than a 2007, a 2006 or even a 2005?

Do the salaries (or benefits) of the factory employees increase as often and as much as the cost of the frames?

Thanks,

A!

[Serotta_James]

1. What do SE and GS stand for?
Nothing specific. Swoop nailed the unofficial version.

2. How does the MeiVici GS differ from the MeiVici SE? Specifically- Is the tubing different? More choice of tubes in the SE, relative to stiffness? Any differences how tubes are joined?

No difference in construction technique or build quality. SE has more advanced tubing with the most number of stiffness options available for any given rider. SE also comes in sloping or traditional top tube variants - GS comes in sloping only. Many more finish options on the SE. GS uses aluminum dropouts, cable guides and other small parts where the SE uses machined Ti for all these.

[Fixed]

The CDA and the Fierte are wonderful bikes for the price and compare well to the TREK. SPECIALIZED. CANNONDALE/ (This is in ride and quality).

I am sure there are lighter ones out there but then SEROTTA never was the lightest for they are built to last in the real world with a warranty backed over the years. (yeah I know the TREK and others have warranty - and I have friends that have had to use it over the years.)

The best warranty is one you never have to use!!!! :D

In these times there are many wonderful bikes out there and it is very competitive. SPECIALIZED and TREK make some wonderful bikes, BUT :cool:

Folks like SEROTTA, KIRK, SACHS, GOODRICH, HAMPSTEN, and KELLOG are what appeals to me no matter the year or time
bro i have to agree with everything except
price and compare well to the TREK. SPECIALIZED. CANNONDALE/ (This is in ride and quality).
bro I had a Fierte steel first year it came out and it was way better than the 55oo trek i had or the cannondale caad 5 I had and the caad7 that I gave my son ... I wish I still had it it was a great bike imho
cheers i loved that 8 bb drop

imho cheers

[Serotta_James]

I see the price increases... Are these because a) Materials b) Inflation [dilution ;)] c) To pay for the R&D d) all of the above?
All of the above, plus as many have already noted the prices now include forks.

Does a 2008 Model (pick one that will remain in the line, regardless of the name) would ride better than a 2007, a 2006 or even a 2005?
Not better, exactly. We are using different carbon tubes (lighter, stiffer, blah, blah) that might change the ride quality a bit. THe biggest difference is that we're going to see an increase in front-end stiffness thanks to the larger diameter downtube and HT lug assemblies that have just been brought online. Also, we have more tubing stiffness levels for most bikes, so we'll be able to more closely match rider weight and preferences, etc.

Do the salaries (or benefits) of the factory employees increase as often and as much as the cost of the frames?
Benefits have been staying constant or getting better for all employees. I'm not privy to any salary information.

[Sandy]

1. What do SE and GS stand for?
Nothing specific. Swoop nailed the unofficial version.

2. How does the MeiVici GS differ from the MeiVici SE? Specifically- Is the tubing different? More choice of tubes in the SE, relative to stiffness? Any differences how tubes are joined?

No difference in construction technique or build quality. SE has more advanced tubing with the most number of stiffness options available for any given rider. SE also comes in sloping or traditional top tube variants - GS comes in sloping only. Many more finish options on the SE. GS uses aluminum dropouts, cable guides and other small parts where the SE uses machined Ti for all these.

Thanks for the precise and very clear explanation of the differences.


Sandy

[Floyd Dakil]

SE has more advanced tubing with the most number of stiffness options available for any given rider. SE also comes in sloping or traditional top tube variants - GS comes in sloping only. Many more finish options on the SE. GS uses aluminum dropouts, cable guides and other small parts where the SE uses machined Ti for all these.

Thanks for your reply. As I said in an earlier post, I was going to buy a Meivici but decided to go with the Attack. I was very happy with the stiffness of an Attack in the store, and the 54 cm frame fits me perfectly.

Here's my first question: Isn't the quality of the carbon identical in the GS and SE models? The Meivici tube set is called TC4 and the one for the Attack (now GS) is called TC3. But the only difference is in the choice of stiffness and top tube angle, not the carbon quality. Right?

Here's my second question: As for the dropouts, cable guides, and other small parts, these things have no bearing on ride quality, right? Isn't it really more of a psychological benefit to know that these incidental components are titanium rather than aluminum?

I assume that to be the case, which is one reason why I went with the Attack. I just didn't think having titanium versus aluminum on certain components, or having frame finish options, or having stiffness and other tubing options were worth the extra $3,500. I love the red-on-white finish of my Attack frame. And the Attack itself is a great bike. I think it is vastly superior to my Ottrott ST. It's two pounds lighter, it has far less vibration, and it lets me feel the road surface while still giving me the sensation of floating along with an invisible motor. The Ottrott ST is also a great bike; but compared to my Attack, it dampens the road surface and has a stiff feel to it, plus more vibration.

I am glad that I found an off-the-rack bike with suitable stiffness, perfect frame size, and an appealing finish (to me). The extra cost for a Meivici SE just didn't add up. And now that it's a discontinued model in the sense that it will no longer have "the Attack" logo on the frame, you've given me an added bonus. Thanks for turning my super bike into a vintage model so soon after I bought it.

[deechee]

I started the cda thread but intended it as questioning and not attacking. Their fork prices are what gets me. They charge more than MSRP for an Alpha q fork. Why?

The one thing I'll give Serotta to the more expensive forks is that if you're under the Owner's Club, the fork is covered in a crash as well. Considering Reynolds doesn't offer much in terms of crash replacement...

<mumbling to myself> I gotta get GS to get a level top tube?... aw man...

[Fixed]

I see the price increases... Are these because a) Materials b) Inflation [dilution ;)] c) To pay for the R&D d) all of the above?
All of the above, plus as many have already noted the prices now include forks.

Does a 2008 Model (pick one that will remain in the line, regardless of the name) would ride better than a 2007, a 2006 or even a 2005?
Not better, exactly. We are using different carbon tubes (lighter, stiffer, blah, blah) that might change the ride quality a bit. THe biggest difference is that we're going to see an increase in front-end stiffness thanks to the larger diameter downtube and HT lug assemblies that have just been brought online. Also, we have more tubing stiffness levels for most bikes, so we'll be able to more closely match rider weight and preferences, etc.

Do the salaries (or benefits) of the factory employees increase as often and as much as the cost of the frames?
Benefits have been staying constant or getting better for all employees. I'm not privy to any salary information.
bro you cats need a dumb old bike mess ?
cheers

[Floyd Dakil]

I really would be interested in hearing what Serotta has to say about my own little comparison between the Attack and the Meivici.

Many thanks,
Floyd

[Serotta_James]

Hey Floyd,
Sorry for the delay. I was building an HSG Carbon up to send out to Colorado.


Here's my first question: Isn't the quality of the carbon identical in the GS and SE models? The Meivici tube set is called TC4 and the one for the Attack (now GS) is called TC3. But the only difference is in the choice of stiffness and top tube angle, not the carbon quality. Right?


Quality isn't really the right qualifier here. All the carbon raw material and the processes used in our Poway facility result in very high quality parts. We should look at it in terms of complexity. The TC5 carbon tubes used in the SE models are inherently more complex to engineer and hold to tolerance because they come in more stiffness levels and iterations. So, it isn't the quality, it's the complexity of the design, engineering and production process that makes these better/more expensive.


Here's my second question: As for the dropouts, cable guides, and other small parts, these things have no bearing on ride quality, right? Isn't it really more of a psychological benefit to know that these incidental components are titanium rather than aluminum?


I think so, yes. Details, details. And one ought never to underestimate the advantage of psychological benefits. :beer:


I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the bike.

James

[Fixed]

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[Floyd Dakil]

Hey Floyd,
Sorry for the delay. I was building an HSG Carbon up to send out to Colorado.

I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the bike.

James

James, thanks for your kind reply. (And please accept my apology if I came across as being a bit pushy.) I do love the bike, and your reply makes my purchase that much sweeter. I highly recommend the Meivici GE to anyone. Thanks for putting out another great product.

[Serotta_James]

bro you cats need a dumb old bike mess ?
cheers

Sure, why not?