Need help improving rear derailleur shifting range...

[Kevan]

What's up with the shifting? I've got a Shimano Deore derailleur, a SRAM 8spd cassette, Ultegra barend shifters, plent of cable, but the shifting isn't going the whole range (11-32). Could it be that I need to toss the old metal coil housing near the derailleur and replace it with a longer piece of the new stuff instead? Here's a picture for your reference:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=23560&stc=1

[David Kirk]

Indexed or friction shifters?

Dave

[Kevan]

I've since replaced the housing with the new stuff, without remedy. I even added a bit more loop to the loop. The R.D. is behaving more like a 5 speed than an 8. I can get it to shift from the 32 cog up into the midsection of the cassette. To get into the highest gear I need to manually manipulate the D's cage up and out, reset the cable tension and then I can get the chain into the highest gear. Problem of course...is I can't use the lowest ones then. Could this be a hanger issue? Does the R.D.'s set screw that presses against the hanger have any impact?

This is weird.

Thanks David for asking.

[saab2000]

That housing isn't doing you any favors. Classic looking, but not as functional as today's stuff. Also, I think (could be an illusion) that your chain might be a link too short.

Finally, check cable cleanliness, and if it binds anywhere. When you have the derailleur uncabled, that's when to check your limit screws. Not while the cable is attached.

[David Kirk]

Sounds to me like the shifter and the derailer don't want to play nice together. Are you 100% sure that they are compatible?

As I understand it there is no adjustment one can make to have the derailer move further.




OOOOH....OHHH.......I just thought of something!

Any chance that the cable is on the wrong side of the anchor bolt on the derailer? Put it on the wrong side and the thinbg won't move as far as it should.

Dave

[6day_rider]

Bar end shifter is probably not assembled correctly assuming the shifting ever worked properly. I would suggest fixing that.

[Louis]

Kevan,

Has this been a gradual deterioration over time, or a new set-up misbehaving from the get-go? Knowing that and what it implies will help point to the problem.

Louis

[Ti Designs]

Put the adjusters back in the dropouts and try again...

[Dave]

Start over. Your shifting description makes no sense, unless this is one of those MTB deraileurs that works backwards, so it shifts to the largest cog position when the cable is not attached. Are the Ultegra shifters 8 speed? If not then that's the first problem. Indexed shifting will never work properly.

Unclamp the shift cable and the RD should drop to the first (smallest) cog position. Start with the bar end lever in the first cog position (all the way down). Reattach the shift cable and be sure you have the cable attached to the lever arm properly. It can be attached incorrectly. Increase the cable tension until the very first click executes the 1-2 shift. A little more tension may be required after that to get good shifts to the remainder of the larger cogs. Once the shift to larger cogs are good, then seen how well the opposite direction works. A Cable friction problem will cause the shifts to smaller cogs to hesitate.

The set screw that touches the hanger changes the distance from the upper pulley on the RD to the largest cog. If they touch, then tighten the screw.

[Peter P.]

Chain looks too short. Could be an illusion due to the wheel being fully rearward in the dropouts.

Good catch, Ti Designs! He's right; put the dropout screws back in and line up the rear wheel so the axle is vertically aligned with the derailleur mounting bolt. Adjust the B-knuckle screw so the jockey pulley clears the large cog by 1 1/2 links.

Housing length is fine.

Derailleur cable is DEFINITELY clamped on the wrong side-sharp eyes, David Kirk! Cable should be clamped on the other side of the bolt. I just verified this with the exact same Deore derailleur I have on my bike.

Report back with the results.

[fstrthnu]

.

[fstrthnu]

Is there a bike shop in your neck of the woods?

[Kevan]

Let's start a bit from the beginning...

The first photo I showed you was a bit old. Both the crankset and the chain (not that it matters) have since been changed. I quickly took a new set of photos this morning to help you see how my setup works. They follow.

So here same of the details you need to know:

I just recently changed the handlebars from 'staches to noodles. The shifting worked better with the first set of bars, not perfect, never perfect, but better than they do now. The housing is new from mid-summer, but was shortened slightly given the new bars. Ends are filed smooth and the cable easily floats through it.

The bike frame doesn't have shifter bosses so instead a cable stop collar is installed.

I have housing installed off the bars to the cable stop and I have replaced the old wire derailleur housing with a new loop (granted a bit too big here, but I wanted to make sure I errored towards caution). I'll be shortening it.

The chain is the full length provided my SRAM. It's 9 spd and seems to function better than the 8 spd I was once using. Every link is there outta the box. Actually I think its setup is perfect.

Crankset is 50/34 and I'm using the old friction Suntour FD and it behaves perfectly. No point fixing perfection.

Maybe I should have sprung for a better rear derailleur. This one is tailored for 8-9 spd cassettes and I have an 8. Again the cassette is a 11-32.

David, I think I'm clamping the cable properly. The bolt cinches a small plate that sandwiches the cable between it and another small plate that has a groove that appears specific for cable routing and clamping. There's no feeding the cable behind the bolt, I don't think. It should be pretty straight forward. Least...that's how I've been treating it.

The shifter is Ultegra brand, 8-9 spd, its housing includes a flip-up loop that I can turn to change the shifting from index to friction. Currently, I get better results using friction, though I'm still restricted by the range.

As for the dropout screws...there twarn't any. That's right, this bike doesn't have set screws, but it did have small inset gizmos that achieved the same results as screws would do. I could reinstall them, if I can find'm, I just thought I would improve my tire clearance by bringing the wheel full into the dropouts. Bad idea, huh? I guess this is my next step in addressing this problem.

Lastly, fstrthnu, this is a Kevan has to fix project. I go to shops for supplies, but this knucklehead has to do the tinkering.

Thanks for listening guys.

[Kevan]

and more.

[Kevan]

and everything went ta heck. The thing on the drive side is giving mad rub to the lockring. Short of going out and buying some washers to put some space beween the lockring and dropout, I don't see that I can keep the gizmos in place. I did try working with the shifting, despite the rubbing problem, and it didn't seem to get any better.

I've about had it with cheap old frames. Now I know why people buy expensive new frames, they're a heck of a lot easier to toy with.

[regularguy412]

Errmm -- Not sure this makes any difference, but shouldn't the bar-cons be turned so that the D-ring that adjusts from index/non-index is on the outside? Therefore, the 'pulling' action of the shifter would be going the right way? I've never used bar-cons, but all of them I've ever seen installed ( usually on TT bike aero bars) are turned that way.

Mike in AR

[Kevan]

I'll admit, I stumbled with how they should be installed, but nope, these are oriented properly. If however there's something to their inner workings I've botched up...well, that's another matter.

Reason you've seen the adjuster on the outside is the orientation of the TT bars. Imagine bending the outstretched bar back around and there you have it.

But I appreciate your input, cuz I'm running out of ideas.

[David Kirk]

OK.........so if I understand it right when you pull the shifter all the way the derailer won't climb up all the way up the cogs to the largest one. Is that right? If so I can think of a few things that it could be.

1) there is slack in the cable so the shifter runs out of travel before the der. moves all the way. This would be pretty obvious when the shifter is fully closed as the cable would be flopping around.

2) the shifter may be incompatible with the der.

3) the set screws on the der. are set so that it won't allow full travel.

4) the der. hanger is bent out away from the centerline of the bike so it won't allow full travel.



If the bike were in my workstand this is what I would do. The problem needs to be isolated so I'd disconnect the cable from the der. Then with the bike in a stand pedal and shift the bike with your hand (watch those fingers). Move the der. through it's full travel and make sure that it can go all the way up and all the way down. Adjust your set screws so it will do so when moving the der. by hand. If it won't move the full way with your hand and the screws are right you have some other weird cosmic thing going on that scares me.

If you can shift it properly by hand it's time to move on. Next hold the der. end of the cable in your hand and pull it firmly while moving the shifter. Make sure that it moves freely without any snags. Count the number of clicks in the shifter and make sure you are getting them all. So close the shifter all the way and click it one position at a time and feel it move at the other end. Count the clicks remembering to count where you start as "one". If that's cool it's time to move on to the next step.

Now close the shifter all the way and feed the cable into the der. and pull all the slack out of the cable and tighten it down. You don't need to pull stupid hard , just take the slack out. If everything you checked previously is cool then it SHOULD shift pretty well. You might need to tweak the barrel adjuster to fine tune it but it should be close.

If after all that the der. won't climb all the way up then is sure sounds like the shifter is messed up or it's not the right shifter for the der.

I hope that helps.

Dave

[regularguy412]

I'll admit, I stumbled with how they should be installed, but nope, these are oriented properly. If however there's something to their inner workings I've botched up...well, that's another matter.

Reason you've seen the adjuster on the outside is the orientation of the TT bars. Imagine bending the outstretched bar back around and there you have it.

But I appreciate your input, cuz I'm running out of ideas.

Yup. Yer right. They attach forward-facing on TT bars. I thot about this more while in the shower. (was not yet awake) :crap:

:beer:
Mike in AR

[Kevan]

Actually, the derailleur is currently set so it runs from the largest gear down (technically up) about 5 gears to the midrange. Frankly, I've had it for a few hours. I need to go for a ride and ponder the meaning of life, suck in some dry cool, first day of autumn, air.

I'll come back to this thread this afternoon and will give it another shot, heeding your advise. I will tell you that I can grip the flex section of the derailleur and easily, by hand, pull the thing so the cage will swing out and the chain will drop down to the smallest gear. If I were to then to reset the cable then my range would be smallest gear going up towards the midrange.

Is there such a thing as a bad derailleur? This one is brandy new.

David and all... I appreciate your help. Thanks

[David Kirk]

Ahhh! So it's a "top normal" derailer!

I'm not the expert here but I think that will not work with your shifter anyway you slice it. You need a "top normal" shifter to drive that thing. Or you need a "bottom normal" der. to go with that shifter.

Just in case not everyone is familiar with these terms - "bottom normal" is when the spring tension returns the der. to the smallest cog. "Top normal" is when the spring tension returns the der. to the largest cog.

I loath "top normal".

Dave

[Kevan]

is what I need?

Umm...what/when/where do I find one of dem?

Shoot me now! ; )

Googling: I'm seeing "high-normal" referenced, for all the others reading this.

[David Kirk]

is what I need?

Umm...what/when/where do I find one of dem?

Shoot me now! ; )

I'm pretty darn sure that those shifters only work with a bottom normal set up and your der. is top normal.

Most der. are bottom normal but Shimano thought it should be more confusing so they did both for awhile.

Fun huh?

Dave

[Kevan]

Wow! I never knew this little kicker. I've been scratching my head bald over this one.

Any suggestions for derailleur makes and models that'll handle an 8spd 32 tooth cassette, I'm all ears.

By the way folks.... THIS is why this forum rocks. Least for me.

Now on to that bike ride...

[dirtdigger88]

hey Dave-

while I am clearly no expert here- why wouldnt the rapid rise derailure work-

they work with brifters- they work with DT shifters-

Jason

[David Kirk]

hey Dave-

while I am clearly no expert here- why wouldnt the rapid rise derailure work-

they work with brifters- they work with DT shifters-

Jason

I don't know.

I'd look for a 8spd bottom normal XT or XTR.

Dave

[dirtdigger88]

a nine speed would work too- no need to hunt for an 8

I run an XTR rear on my Kirk with a 12-28 XTR 8 speed cassette- I also sometime run a 12-34 9 speed and I currently have a 12-23 9 speed on it-

oh and at one point I had the DKS set up with barcons a dura ace 10 speed rear and 9 speed cassettes

you have to love DT shifters

weisan runs a top normal rear on one of his bikes-

rivendell tells people to try the top normal on DT shifters-

I honestly would love to see the bike in person -

Jason

[SayHey]

I have Ultegra barcon shifters with a Rapid Rise Deore XT derailleur and it works great. I think this is called a Low normal design, as the spring tension wants to put the chain in the largest cog (or lowest gear) in the default position. I know this is all very confusing with respect to terms, but I think Top-Normal means the derailleur default position is the Top gear (or smallest rear cog) -- http://www.beyondbikes.com/BB/ItemDesc.asp?IC=0c7-lon-rap.

A couple of things that I learned in putting my bike together when I struggled with this -- I'm not certain about this but I don't believe the barcon can be an 8- and 9-spd indexed unit. I think it must be either an 8-spd or 9-spd unit. I had 7-spd barcons and were told they could work for either 7- or 8-speeds but that wasn't the case. I got 8-speed Ultegras and now they index great with my 8-spd cassette. That wouldn't be the cause of you only getting 5 or 6 gears; however, it could explain failure to get the indexing to work well throughout the whole range.

If you only get 5 or 6 gears, the barcon shifter may be assembled improperly. If the two plastic mated pieces are not oriented properly, you won't get the indexing to work right. If you have the directions for the barcon shifters, they tell you how to mate the pieces up correctly.

As someone mentioned earlier, check to see if you can get the full-range of gears by manually manipulating the cable. If the derailleur is the Rapid Rise type, with no cable tension the chain should run fine in the largest rear cog if the low limit screw is set properly. (The converse is true if you have the Top Normal derailleur -- default is small cog). You should then be able to pull on the cable and get the derailleur to go all the way to the smallest cog (if the high limit screw is set to allow that movement). If you can manually get the derailleur to work to the extremes, then I think the barcon may be assembled improperly.

Good luck.

[Too Tall]

Bar end shifter is probably not assembled correctly assuming the shifting ever worked properly. I would suggest fixing that.

Kev., 6day_rider is prob. correct. I read thru all the notes from you and think you have the internal plastic index ring spun to the wrong position. It is simple to fix. Put a dot of fingernail polish on the current position so that once you disassemble and drop everything on the floor and finish cursing you can re-assemble ;) I've set up bikes exactly the same and made this boo boo also.

[Kevan]

I've stepped away from the repair stand and have reread all the advise and will give it a fresh start during this week. Obviously, the first step is to make sure I've assembled the shifter correctly. I'm pretty sure I have the directions filed. If I've mucked that up then nothing I do next will repair the sit-chee-ation. Depending on results, I'll take the next suggestion in order of simplicity and cost.

I hope this dialog has helped others with similar headaches.

Too Tall, the bars are yummy, but you already knew that and deservedly get to say, "I told you so!" Thanks pal for the suggestion.

[palincss]

Ahhh! So it's a "top normal" derailer!

I'm not the expert here but I think that will not work with your shifter anyway you slice it. You need a "top normal" shifter to drive that thing. Or you need a "bottom normal" der. to go with that shifter.

Just in case not everyone is familiar with these terms - "bottom normal" is when the spring tension returns the der. to the smallest cog. "Top normal" is when the spring tension returns the der. to the largest cog.

I loath "top normal".

Dave

No, I don't believe that is true. There is no "top normal" bar end shifter, just the plain old ordinary bar-end shifters, and they work fine with "***-backwards" rear derailleurs, only they work backwards. A friend of mine has one on her Bleriot.

[PacNW2Ford]

According to Shimano, "top-normal" is what we're used to, releasing cable lets the derailleur go to top gear (small cog). "Low-normal" is RapidRise where releasing cable moves the derailleur to a bigger cog.

Anyhow, you should be able to run either one with the correct bar-ends. For the record, I am running Ultegra 8-speed bar-ends with the original silver/blue (M900) XTR rear derailleur and it works perfectly. A medium cage XTR 8-speed derailleur should be able to shift a 12-32 with a less than 22T spread upfront. Yes, this exceeds the published wrap spec (33T) and the capacity spec, but it works. At least it did last time I rode that bike. Any long cage Shimano 8-speed MTB derailleur (SGS) should easily handle it.

Good luck Kevan, I think the others are right in that there's probably something off in the setup.

[Bud]

The "low-normal"/rapid-rise stuff works fine with barcons. I have D/A 9 speed barcons and a Deore 9 speed rapid-rise rear derailleur on the commutocross. For a year this was set up with an 11-34 cassette and it shifted no worries. Setup was pretty easy too.

[Kevan]

it was the shifter folks! Thanks to all of you fine folk for your suggestions and a special thanks for SayHey for sending me a copy of the directions for properly setting up a 8spd barend. It took a while to get it working right, it was easy enough to correct the orientation of the plastic chromed collar piece, but the matching indentation, inset on the shifter itself, wasn't where it should have been to match when trying to install the pieces as outlined in the directions. A couple temporary installs and swings of the lever up and down seemed to get the indentation properly aligned so the final tightening could be made. once done it was the suspenseful tick(2)...tick(3)...tick(4)...tick(5)...tick(6)... tick(7)...TICK(8)! Yah!!!!

Anyway, that problem is now solved. What an amazing experience. Bicycles are relatively easy machines, but then they aren't at the same time. Just when I think I've got it all mastered something new falls into my path.

Such as the brakes on this bucket of bolts. They absolutely stink.