Heart of steel pricing 2008

[soulspinner]

Over 2900 for a frame and f3 fork. I cant buy a steel frame Coeur without buying a Serotta fork? Help me get this one?

[Pete Serotta]

Check with your dealer....I would be shocked if you could not get it without the F3. (or send JAMES a note)

[Big Dan]

Wild.

[dave1215]

new COO decides to test price elasticity of demand? :eek:

[Sandy]

You also pay $415 more for the all steel frame with the F3 fork compared to the frame with the carbon rear and the F fork. In addition, if you subtract the price of the F3 fork (painted- $720) from the $2905 for the all steel frame and the F3 fork, you get $2225, which is about $300 more than last year's price for the frame, if I remember correctly. You do get more paint color choices and design options with the more expensive pairing, but there are some upcharges there too.

I am very close to purchasing an all steel CDA (or whatever you call it) and I only want a single color, so I get no real help in the way the purchase is structured. I probably want a single color that they don't have listed anymore (midnight blue) and that is an upcharge too.


Steel Sandy

[Pete Serotta]

Let Smiley work his magic.....
:cool: :) :D


You also pay $415 more for the all steel frame with the F3 fork compared to the frame with the carbon rear and the F fork. In addition, if you subtract the price of the F3 fork (painted- $720) from the $2905 for the all steel frame and the F3 fork, you get $2225, which is about $300 more than last year's price for the frame, if I remember correctly. You do get more paint color choices and design options with the more expensive pairing, but there are some upcharges there too.

I am very close to purchasing an all steel CDA (or whatever you call it) and I only want a single color, so I get no real help in the way the purchase is structured. I probably want a single color that they don't have listed anymore (midnight blue) and that is an upcharge too.


Steel Sandy

[Sandy]

It is very simple. Serotta prices its product as it decides. You decide whether to purchase or not. But some of the prices are really escalating. I would love to test ride a MeiVic, but I never will, as I will not pay that much for any frameset (or complete bike).

Sandy

[Serotta_James]

Sandy, you should call me if you have serious questions of if you're considering purchasing a frame. I can answer your questions and inform you about the pricing for 2008.

Coeur d'Acier SE w/ F3 Fork - approx $2900
Coeur d'Acier GS w/ S-Fork - approx $2500

It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that the cost of producing high-quality goods in the US is escalating at a remarkable rate. Welcome to the globalized economy.

[Sandy]

Sandy, you should call me if you have serious questions of if you're considering purchasing a frame. I can answer your questions and inform you about the pricing for 2008.

Coeur d'Acier SE w/ F3 Fork - approx $2900
Coeur d'Acier GS w/ S-Fork - approx $2500

It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that the cost of producing high-quality goods in the US is escalating at a remarkable rate. Welcome to the globalized economy.

I operated a small business and realize how difficult it must be today. One must consider escalating raw costs (such as tubing), health care costs, research and development, investments/acquisitions for company growth, competition from larger producers, foreign made bicycles with low labor costs,employee salaries, increasing utility costs,......It ain't easy.

I want Serotta and small business entities like Serotta to flourish. I did not mean to sound as if I was criticizing Serotta and its pricing. If so, please accept my apology for such. It was not my intent.


Sorry Sandy

[72gmc]

I think it's great that Serotta can get what they charge for bike frames. I'm glad people are willing to pay this kind of money for a bike frame. I hope to pay what they're charging for a ti frame--someday!

[Serotta_James]

Oh I know. And I do appreciate your experience with small businesses as well.

It's a (sad) reality that we face being a fully American-based production company. I would expect to see pricing from all other similar companies to go up as well. The sad part for us is that prices from mass-produced companies with off-shore production contracts will continue to see prices fall.

My hope is that communities like this forum will have enough impact on the market at large to keep companies like ours in the business of producing the best bikes possible.

[LegendRider]

I operated a small business and realize how difficult it must be today. One must consider escalating raw costs (such as tubing), health care costs, research and development, investments/acquisitions for company growth, competition from larger producers, foreign made bicycles with low labor costs,employee salaries, increasing utility costs,......It ain't easy.


Competition should lower prices, not raise them.

[Brian Smith]

Over 2900 for a frame and f3 fork. I cant buy a steel frame Coeur without buying a Serotta fork? Help me get this one?

Do you want to use a fork that the maker didn't intend?
Help me get that one.
This is yet another attempt by a high end manufacturer to get people to think of a fork as part of an order instead of an add-on.
For Serotta I think it is also a way to try to make offering a steel frame a little bit economically sensible compared to other possiblities.
Stating it that way makes it seem like there is such a commodity as "steel frame," and additionally that Serotta seeks to traffic in it. Both premises are problematic. The Coeur is hardly just "a steel frame."
What I really mean to say, but in a nice, explanatory way, is that if you're considering the Coeur, how could you be sensibly considering a fork other than the F3 anyway? The RTX for was eliminated years ago, and these are new 2008 models.
If it's just a total dollar number you're worried about...priced a new kit yet? High end bicycles have become incredibly good, and very expensive. Those things are not news, and facts not lost on Serotta. The GS options exist for those wanting to save some money without grotesquely affecting performance. If you want the best steel-based frameset that Serotta can now deliver, it's speedily available for only ~$2900!

[DarrenCT]

Oh I know. And I do appreciate your experience with small businesses as well.

It's a (sad) reality that we face being a fully American-based production company. I would expect to see pricing from all other similar companies to go up as well. The sad part for us is that prices from mass-produced companies with off-shore production contracts will continue to see prices fall.

My hope is that communities like this forum will have enough impact on the market at large to keep companies like ours in the business of producing the best bikes possible.

very well put James. do u have a business degree? :)

[Serotta_James]

Competition should lower prices, not raise them.

So you think that Serotta should eliminate our factories in Saratoga and Poway, CA and begin producing bikes overseas using off-the-shelf carbon sub-components? That would certainly lower our prices.

The reason prices are going up (primarily) is because we (Serotta, Seven, IF, Moots, etc) are competing for raw materials with MNCs like Boeing and Airbus.
Needless to say we don't have the same buying power and so we get poor pricing and even worse delivery.

[DarrenCT]

i just sold a new IF crown jewel sec + reynolds pro fork + ck hs for $800.

apparently i should have sold it for more :)

[don compton]

in the current economy of a weak dollar, it would seem to me that these offshore manufacturers would have to really struggle to lower prices and still make a profit. am i missing something here?
respectfully, don compton

[Sandy]

Do you want to use a fork that the maker didn't intend?
Help me get that one.
This is yet another attempt by a high end manufacturer to get people to think of a fork as part of an order instead of an add-on.
For Serotta I think it is also a way to try to make offering a steel frame a little bit economically sensible compared to other possiblities.
Stating it that way makes it seem like there is such a commodity as "steel frame," and additionally that Serotta seeks to traffic in it. Both premises are problematic. The Coeur is hardly just "a steel frame."
What I really mean to say, but in a nice, explanatory way, is that if you're considering the Coeur, how could you be sensibly considering a fork other than the F3 anyway? The RTX for was eliminated years ago, and these are new 2008 models.
If it's just a total dollar number you're worried about...priced a new kit yet? High end bicycles have become incredibly good, and very expensive. Those things are not news, and facts not lost on Serotta. The GS options exist for those wanting to save some money without grotesquely affecting performance. If you want the best steel-based frameset that Serotta can now deliver, it's speedily available for only ~$2900!

I do think that Serotta's steel frameset is by far its best deal for its custom offering. But I don't quite see the rest of what you say as being as clear as it appears to you.

If it is so apparent that one should match frame with a very specific fork, then that should have been clear to Serotta, the producer. Why did Serotta previouslynot take this approach that is so apparent to you? It sold frames alone before and even offered other forks for sale.

Perhaps a customer wants to independently make his own choice on forks. Cyclists have been doing that for years. Maybe Joe Customer does not want to pay $720 for a F3 fork, when Joe Customer can pay a fraction of that for an Ouzo Pro and be quite satisfied.

I am to be so naive to think that Serotta's recent acquisition of a facility that makes forks does not have a MAJOR impact into how it sells and markets its forks and frame/fork combinations? Does Serotta want to sell its forks or a Reynolds fork? Did this change in fork philosophy simply coincidentally change after the facility puchase? Are you saying that an Ouzo Pro won't work nor will any other fork not work? Are you saying that Joe customer should not make his or her own choice?

I will probably buy an all steel CDA with the F3 fork, but you make it sound as if that is the only way to go, and make a statement about " ...the sensibility about considering another fork than the F3 anyway..." That casts a negative shadow on someone tying to make his or her own decision.

In addition, kits are getting much cheaper and not more expensive, if you are willing to take last year's 10 speed models. Shimano Dura-Ace, Ultegra..., are being sold at remarkable discounts.

I don't mean to sound harsh, and your knowledge of what goes on in the industry and about all things bike related is vast. But I really don't think you are being totally fair and correct in what you are saying.

One might say that the F3 fork is he ideal fork for the CDA etc., but there certainly has been a change, and most understandalbly so, in the approach Serotta has taken in offering and marketing.




Sandy

[DarrenCT]

Sandy, you should call me if you have serious questions of if you're considering purchasing a frame. I can answer your questions and inform you about the pricing for 2008.

Coeur d'Acier SE w/ F3 Fork - approx $2900
Coeur d'Acier GS w/ S-Fork - approx $2500

It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that the cost of producing high-quality goods in the US is escalating at a remarkable rate. Welcome to the globalized economy.

wth is an "s-fork"??

[Ken Robb]

Well Serotta does offer good discounts to military personnel so if you want a really good deal go see your friendly recruiter. :)

[Ti Designs]

I blame the Easter Bunny. The Easter Bunny should know better than to listen to investors who think Santa is the perfect business model.

I hear that Frosty was left out in the hot California sun to melt.

:confused:

[Pete Serotta]

My son-in-laws CDA with an F3 arrived today. He is on cloud 9. My CSI that Kelly built has an F2 from a few years ago and SPOKES has a F3 on his.

THe ride of steel is awesome..... I am not taking away from a steel fork but properly designed and SPECed carbon forks are good, as least for me. When there was a choice, I always asked KELLY and MIKE to spec what I needed for the ride I wanted. THey never let me down or disappointed.

Pricing on everything has gone up - - sure am glad the folks in DC tell me there is no inflation... Look at what the BROOKS saddle went up % wise recently. (Check WALL BIKE).

I apologize for mis talking about the fork....I canbet you a bottle of Tom's red that you will like the F3 (US produced).

[Smiley]

I tend to disagree with all that think the open choice of fork debate is a bad thing for Serotta. I like to keep a Fork and Frame mated to one another by Serotta's choice so if a front end issue arises there is never a debate as to Is it the fork blame game. I have had one of these issues recently with a BIG bike and Serotta stepped up to the plate and worked through the whole process with me and my client with positive results, Yes we had a Serotta frame and Fork. Why would you make a choice otherwise. I discourage mixing forks and frames cause this is an issue I have encountered in my + 10 years of Serotta sales and its best handled IMHO by sticking with an OEM fork on the frame.

[soulspinner]

Do you want to use a fork that the maker didn't intend?
Help me get that one.
This is yet another attempt by a high end manufacturer to get people to think of a fork as part of an order instead of an add-on.
For Serotta I think it is also a way to try to make offering a steel frame a little bit economically sensible compared to other possiblities.
Stating it that way makes it seem like there is such a commodity as "steel frame," and additionally that Serotta seeks to traffic in it. Both premises are problematic. The Coeur is hardly just "a steel frame."
What I really mean to say, but in a nice, explanatory way, is that if you're considering the Coeur, how could you be sensibly considering a fork other than the F3 anyway? The RTX for was eliminated years ago, and these are new 2008 models.
If it's just a total dollar number you're worried about...priced a new kit yet? High end bicycles have become incredibly good, and very expensive. Those things are not news, and facts not lost on Serotta. The GS options exist for those wanting to save some money without grotesquely affecting performance. If you want the best steel-based frameset that Serotta can now deliver, it's speedily available for only ~$2900!

The answer is simple. I like 45 mm rakes with 73 head tubes and lots of drop. Serotta doesnt even make a 45. Get it now?

[Fixed]

bro one day i'll ride a serotta cos of you cats and this place i want to be in the club .
cheers

[soulspinner]

bro one day i'll ride a serotta cos of you cats and this place i want to be in the club .
cheers

Im with ya its just that affording one at the new prices will open up builders like Dave Kirk. Maybe Serotta is going to price itself into less orders...

[Sandy]

Well Serotta does offer good discounts to military personnel so if you want a really good deal go see your friendly recruiter. :)

I tried. I really tried. They looked. They laughed. They sent me on my way.. :)


Sandy

[Serotta_James]

If it is so apparent that one should match frame with a very specific fork, then that should have been clear to Serotta, the producer. Why did Serotta previouslynot take this approach that is so apparent to you? It sold frames alone before and even offered other forks for sale.


Because now we can. Before we were limited by fork selection and availability. I don't think there was ever a time when we didn't have a recommended fork for each bike. Now that we have the capability to produce these forks ourselves it seems only natural that we would offer frames and forks together that were designed together.

[Sandy]

My son-in-laws CDA with an F3 arrived today. He is on cloud 9. My CSI that Kelly built has an F2 from a few years ago and SPOKES has a F3 on his.

THe ride of steel is awesome..... I am not taking away from a steel fork but properly designed and SPECed carbon forks are good, as least for me. When there was a choice, I always asked KELLY and MIKE to spec what I needed for the ride I wanted. THey never let me down or disappointed.

Pricing on everything has gone up - - sure am glad the folks in DC tell me there is no inflation... Look at what the BROOKS saddle went up % wise recently. (Check WALL BIKE).

I apologize for mis talking about the fork....I canbet you a bottle of Tom's red that you will like the F3 (US produced).

If I buy a CDA (probably will), I will order the F3 fork for sure. Undoubtedly, it will work exceptionally well since Serotta designed it. I have the utmost respect and admiration for the product Serotta produces. However, there are various reasons for someone selecting a different fork- Probably the most important one is price. Some cyclists want/need to save wherever they can in the purchase price of a Serotta or any quality bike. In addition, as stated above, perhaps Serotta does not offer, in its F3, a fork that precisely matches what the purchaser wants, relative to rake...steerer tube differences.....maybe someone just does not like how it looks.

There are two small custom builders that I have considered in purchasing a steel bike from. But I will buy the Serotta because I have loved my CSI and my Ottrott St, I have great respect for Ben Serotta and those who produce and help design Serotta's offerings, and Serotta has given me the Serotta Forum, which has enriched my life in many ways. I wouldn't consider another fork- the F3 I am sure will be splendid- but my reasons are my reasons and others have different perspectives and needs for their purchase of a frame and a fork to go with it.

It undoubtedly is diffficult for all the relatively small bicycle builders because of escalating costs that you allude to and the increased global competition. I want Serotta to flourish, just like you do.


Sandy

[Serotta_James]

I am to be so naive to think that Serotta's recent acquisition of a facility that makes forks does not have a MAJOR impact into how it sells and markets its forks and frame/fork combinations? Does Serotta want to sell its forks or a Reynolds fork? Did this change in fork philosophy simply coincidentally change after the facility puchase? Are you saying that an Ouzo Pro won't work nor will any other fork not work? Are you saying that Joe customer should not make his or her own choice?


Of course our Poway facility makes this more possible than ever. Don't make this out like we're trying to screw "Joe Consumer" because we have our own carbon facility now. Just because we want to sell our forks with our frames doesn't mean they aren't far and away the best choice. And since you bring up the Ouzo Pro fork, don't forget that the guy who designed and engineered that fork is now working for us and is responsible for our design and engineering.

We've always been concerned with the ride quality of our bikes. As time goes on, our facility expands and technology improves we have the increased ability to tune the ride quality of our frames AND begin to build components that are also tuned to improve ride quality. This is a logical progression of Ben's desire to build the best BIKES, not just the best frames.

So, yes. This desicion to bundle frames and forks was driven by the capabilities now available to us by Poway. And the decision to procure that facility was driven by our goal to build the best products we could, domestically.

[Sandy]

Because now we can. Before we were limited by fork selection and availability. I don't think there was ever a time when we didn't have a recommended fork for each bike. Now that we have the capability to produce these forks ourselves it seems only natural that we would offer frames and forks together that were designed together.

Absolutely. It is natural and obviously a most reasonable direction to take. A wonderful opportunity for Serotta to offer its own forks to its cusomers. A win-win situation for both.

But some cyclists, most reasonably, don't want to necessarily have to purchase a frame and a fork as a single unit. Is that going to be the only way that Serotta will be offering its frames-with the fork?

Sandy

[93legendti]

The answer is simple. I like 45 mm rakes with 73 head tubes and lots of drop. Serotta doesnt even make a 45. Get it now?

Uh, I think a bike design is a little more complicated than these 2 measurements.

[soulspinner]

We were only talking about fork availability or fork being mandatory. I realize trail etc can be reached other ways. I have used these numbers that have worked for ME with the other parameters for MY bikes.

[Erik.Lazdins]

Im with ya its just that affording one at the new prices will open up builders like Dave Kirk. Maybe Serotta is going to price itself into less orders...

I believe Individual framebuilders who live in the US are facing the same obstacles of increasing healthcare, materials cost, cost of living as Serotta. The year over year price increase for the CDA is normal based on my observations of US built quality goods.

In my opinion if you set your sights on a new Serotta or individual framebuilder's frameset in the future, you should probably factor in a YOY price increase in the order of about 10%. Should the frame of your dreams not increase that much, you have some extra money to put back in the bank or use as seed money for the next bike project.

These are my opinions and thanks for reading.

[LegendRider]

So you think that Serotta should eliminate our factories in Saratoga and Poway, CA and begin producing bikes overseas using off-the-shelf carbon sub-components? That would certainly lower our prices.

The reason prices are going up (primarily) is because we (Serotta, Seven, IF, Moots, etc) are competing for raw materials with MNCs like Boeing and Airbus.
Needless to say we don't have the same buying power and so we get poor pricing and even worse delivery.


I'm not sure how can draw that conclusion from my statement. I was simply responding to someone who said that increased competition would cause prices to rise when the opposite is more likely the case.

I'm glad Serotta makes a high-quality product in the USA. And, I understand the cost pressures it faces (materials, labor, benefits, etc), but competition is not what is causing prices to go up.

[Fixed]

bro eveything is goin up ...... except my check
cheers

[Smiley]

Is this what Greenspan calls INFLATION ! Geez guys and gals get a grip, I just paid over $30 K for a new Ford. Plenty of great used deals out there and instead of *****ing about buying a new bike just buy it cause its not going to get any cheaper. Funny nobody's *****ing about Titanium pricing going through the roof yet you can buy a used Legend Ti frame fork and headset for under $1000. No thanks I am keeping my Hors and my wifes Legend Ti frame at these prices. Will keep my Al Capp Tandem too if I don't get a good value for it if and when I chose to sell it. Can't wait for my new bike (Tandem) to arrive. Yes its STEEL and yes I bought it before the price increase at Interbike next week.

[Sandy]

Of course our Poway facility makes this more possible than ever. Don't make this out like we're trying to screw "Joe Consumer" because we have our own carbon facility now. Just because we want to sell our forks with our frames doesn't mean they aren't far and away the best choice. And since you bring up the Ouzo Pro fork, don't forget that the guy who designed and engineered that fork is now working for us and is responsible for our design and engineering.

We've always been concerned with the ride quality of our bikes. As time goes on, our facility expands and technology improves we have the increased ability to tune the ride quality of our frames AND begin to build components that are also tuned to improve ride quality. This is a logical progression of Ben's desire to build the best BIKES, not just the best frames.

So, yes. This desicion to bundle frames and forks was driven by the capabilities now available to us by Poway. And the decision to procure that facility was driven by our goal to build the best products we could, domestically.

Best that I no longer post in this thread. "....Don't make this out like we're trying to screw "Joe Customer" because we have our own carbon facility now.." Where does that statement evolve from? In what I said?? I never said anything or meant anything even remotely close to that interpretation. I don't even know if Serotta insists on a F3 purchase with an all steel CDA purchase.

Are you trying to somehow equate my statements that some potential buyers want to make their own fork choices for their own reasons with some interpretation of I think Serotta is trying to screw its customers? How can you relate the two? I don't think that Serotta ever tries to screw their customers. The opposite scenario exists. I feel Serotta treats its customers exceptionally well. The purchase of the Poway facility was a natural- beneficial to both Serotta and its customers.

How may I ask is stating that people want to make their own choices in their purchases for their reasons, somehow is translated by you into I am saying that Serotta is trying to screw Joe customer. That jump in logic is absurd.

If Serotta is saying that the only way to only way that I can purchase an all steel CDA is to purchase a F3 fork also, then yes, I think that is a mistake, but I realy have little clue as to what Serotta is saying about that thus far.


Serotta makes its own business decisions. Perhaps you are being overly sensitive to what I have said in this thread. I know that I am overly sensitive in what cylsits say to me.

I will take a break, at least from this thread, at least. This is Serotta's forum and I must respect that.


Sandy

[Ozz]

bro eveything is goin up ...... except my check
cheers
and there's the rub.... :crap:

[deechee]

All I'm going to say is as a guy who LOVES his 3-4 year old CIII.

I think if the pricing of all Serottas go up similarly to the Coeur D'acier, I will seriously look at other builders/brands for my next bike (be it for me or for my gf) as I simply cannot afford it.

I'm not blaming Serotta, I'm just saying it sucks. Its like when we were kids and balked at how "expensive" comic books and lego sets were. I thought when I'd grow up I'd be able to buy tons of them but with "graphic novels" at 10$ a pop and Lego sets easily going into the hundreds of dollars, well, I guess my childhood dreams won't work out unless I win the lottery... I wonder how much it is this week...

[OldDog]

Serotta is not taking advantage of anyone. Steel did take a big jump in 2004 and has been pretty level since. However, you cannot base a products pricing on raw materials. Tubes I believe come from Columbus, a European supplier whose exchange rates are down compared to ours, making a purchase more expensive. And it's a specialty tube to prorietary specs, I would think with all the others material offerings Serotta has, steel sales is down, decreasing their overall usage and increasing cost.

I too deal with Boeing and Airbus. We are at the beginning of a new cycle in the production of large jet liners, (as compared to the end of a cycle for "regional jets") usally a 12 year cycle, based on past history. Boeing and Airbus are putting out forcasts and buy requirements for years to come. Todays method of business for many item is to issue 5 year contracts with their suppllers. These suppliers are issuing orders and tying up materials, driving the cost up.

As James said, it's a world market. Buy a Chinese frameset, wait for the recall. Buy a Serotta and enjoy it for life.

[OldDog]

However, you cannot base a products pricing on raw materials. .

Let em clarify myself, you cannot JUDGE a companies pricing based on current raw material prices. Just because the business section of the paper says steel is up 1%, an end product will change. Much more goes into turning that raw material into a product, i.e., raw steel into a tube into a bike frame.

[soulspinner]

All I'm going to say is as a guy who LOVES his 3-4 year old CIII.

I think if the pricing of all Serottas go up similarly to the Coeur D'acier, I will seriously look at other builders/brands for my next bike (be it for me or for my gf) as I simply cannot afford it.

I'm not blaming Serotta, I'm just saying it sucks. Its like when we were kids and balked at how "expensive" comic books and lego sets were. I thought when I'd grow up I'd be able to buy tons of them but with "graphic novels" at 10$ a pop and Lego sets easily going into the hundreds of dollars, well, I guess my childhood dreams won't work out unless I win the lottery... I wonder how much it is this week...

You said it all atmo....

[Bill Bove]

While I agree with TiDesigns that I do not agree with some of Serotta's business policies I have to point out here that the bike biz is changing and Serotta IS looking out for their dealers. It takes a pretty sizable investment to become a Serotta dealer and Serotta is helping their dealers maintain a small but consistent profit margin on their sales.

In the biz this is "Pre-season Season", we IBD's have all of our vendors dropping by, showing us cool new bike stuff and asking us to buy lot's of it. Some are more aggressive than others, they're all vying for a bigger piece of the pie, or all of it. I am being forced by my own economics and changing vendors policies to drop Sidi, Merlin and Colnago and Nike is dropping their entire cycling line. We gotta roll with the tide, as Smiley said about not selling his older bikes I will continue to ride my seven year old Legend Ti because I just can't afford to buy a new one. Likewise my next bike will probably be built in Taiwan.

[1centaur]

"The GS options exist for those wanting to save some money without grotesquely affecting performance."

Note to older CDA owners - how grotesque is your performance?

I don't think the cost of steel, healthcare, labor, the dollar drop vis foreign purchases or tubes made by others (probably) on a % of costs-weighted basis went up as much as the frame went up, nor do I think there is bubbling 10% inflation happening at the grass roots that is completely not captured in Fed data. As with the way-out-there MeiVici pricing well noted in prior threads I presume that there's cost absorption being spread across the product line-up because it costs a lot to try to be the best, develop the MeiVici, acquire Poway, etc. I also think Serotta knows its customer base very well. These pricing threads pop up each year with the greatest adherents pointing out that if you want the best you can have the best, and if not... Eventually the annoyance dies down.

As a customer you either buy into that line of reasoning or you don't. The CDA will be more expensive in the future, and one you buy this year will probably not ride grotesquely then, even vs. the F17 fork. I suspect the dollar is going to be quite weak for a while, on average, so lots of cycling stuff will be pretty expensive. If you really want a CDA, this is the cheapest year to buy one. If you can accept more grotesque performance, used CDAs and well regarded steel frames from other makers may work.

[Ahneida Ride]

Welcome to the globalized economy.

Welcome to frnacation ....

We are being diluted alive with counterfeit money.

[davids]

Nike's dropping their entire cycling line? What would Major Taylor say?

[Bill Bove]

Nike's dropping their entire cycling line? What would Major Taylor say?
What's a Nike :confused:

[SoCalSteve]

If the tig welded CDA is $1895.00, how much would a lugged CSI be now?

Just askin'

Steve

[sg8357]

Nike's dropping their entire cycling line? What would Major Taylor say?

Look for the union label
when you are buying that coat, dress or blouse.

Remember somewhere our union's sewing,
our wages going to feed the kids, and run the house.

We work hard, but who's complaining?
Thanks to the I.L.G. we're paying our way!

So always look for the union label,
it says we're able to make it in the U.S.A.!


Scott G.

[e-RICHIE]

atmo -

http://newdeal.feri.org/images/ac40.gif

[Big Dan]

The CIII was overpriced way back then.....

:cool:

[Smiley]

If the tig welded CDA is $1895.00, how much would a lugged CSI be now?

Just askin'

Steve
$ 3000 frn's Steve and why your bike did not sell is still a mystery to me too !

[SoCalSteve]

$ 3000 frn's Steve and why your bike did not sell is still a mystery to me too !

The CSI gods must want me to keep it or something...

I may try selling it as a frame set and see how that works out.


Steve

PS: Or, I may just have to build it up with D/A and ride the shiite out of it as I much prefer the slacker sta on the Peg for my fixed than the 73* of the CSI.

[weiwentg]

I don't think Sandy's original question ever got answered amidst the accusations flying here and there. can I buy a CDA frame, without fork? if so, how much does it cost?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . after reading this thread as to what the fuss is all about.

The prices are what they are and the combos are what they are and there's huge choice in the industry and many small framebuilders where you can get what you want if you don't agree with Serotta's pricing or packaging policies.

I don't think Serotta is trying to take advantage of anyone. I just don't think after meeting and knowing Ben that he would do business that way.

The cost of materials has gone up. I read somewhere the other day that health care costs for employers have gone up 78% since 2001. I would also imagine that there are some pretty sizeable loans to be serviced to pay for the new building and the Reynolds aquisition and for all the automated equipment they have put in to make all-carbon frames possible.

This all has to be paid for. But even if Ben had decided to take a bit of profit out of the company, I dare anyone to fault him for it. He's been bustin' his butt at it for 35 years and deserves some reward! Given the competition in the industry and the climate for small business in general the last few years I admire him for just making it all work!

I agree with Centaur--there seems to be a thread like this every year and there were several when the Meivici was introduced complaining about how expensive it was. To quote famous sconomist Arthur Sandy-Span, if you think the tuna sandwich is too expensive, then you can always eat something else! :rolleyes:

BBD

[MilanoTom]

atmo -

http://newdeal.feri.org/images/ac40.gif

...but the modern equivalents of the Triangle Waist companies are now far, far away, so the average consumer doesn't have to be concerned with it. All that matters are the low prices.

What happens in China stays in China (or at least that's what many would hope...).

Tom

[e-RICHIE]

...but the modern equivalents of the Triangle Waist companies are now far, far away, so the average consumer doesn't have to be concerned with it. All that matters are the low prices.

What happens in China stays in China (or at least that's what many would hope...).

Tom
gets it atmo.

[victoryfactory]

If the tig welded CDA is $1895.00, how much would a lugged CSI be now?

Just askin'

Steve

Y'know I think I might take the $1895. tig welded custom Serotta which can
be delivered in a reasonable time rather than a "boutique" lugged frame at
twice the price and a 2-3 year wait.

Just sayin'

VF

[Fixed]

bro get both ride one now and sell it when the other one is ready ...
..that's cruel imho
cheers

[SoCalSteve]

Y'know I think I might take the $1895. tig welded custom Serotta which can
be delivered in a reasonable time rather than a "boutique" lugged frame at
twice the price and a 2-3 year wait.
Just sayin'

VF

Dave Kirk (as well as many others) can build you a custom "lugged boutique" bike for not that much more than a CDA (actually, most of them include the fork as part of their costs, so the prices are very comporable).... and the wait is nowhere near 2-3 years...Now a JB paint job takes some time.

Just sayin'

Steve

[sg8357]

.What happens in China stays in China (or at least that's what many would hope...).

Tom

Except for those carbon wrapped fiberglass bikes with lead paint.
China is going thru robber baron capitalism right now. Exploited workers, robber barons, adulterated products hmmmm sounds so 19th Century. International Workers of the World Unite !

Scott G.
You can tell its swell, its Mattel.

[deechee]

I find it ironic that many of you love to bash Chinese products (don't worry I'm Japanese and couldn't care less) but I'm pretty sure most of those computers you're typing on right now are filled with parts from China.

[MilanoTom]

I find it ironic that many of you love to bash Chinese products (don't worry I'm Japanese and couldn't care less) but I'm pretty sure most of those computers you're typing on right now are filled with parts from China.

I wish they weren't. I'd pay a few extra dollars if it meant that a some of my countrymen (and women) would still have jobs.

[benb]

So is the Gist of this that the price of the CDA went up $300 but an F3 fork is also required now?

If you're considering any of these bikes decide what is more annoying...

1) Frame/Fork costs from Serotta (or some other US Builder) going up because of rising health care, etc.. costs

or

2) Component prices going through the roof for no apparent reason even though they are probably built for pennies in Asia

If you're hanging premium components on the bike you're either padding some fat cats pockets or you're just paying through the nose due to the poor buying power of the dollar at the moment.

For me it was easy.. the F3 fork was worth more then hanging more expensive shifters/deraiullers, etc.. on the bike.

Component costs seem to have doubled in the past 3-4 years while at the same time manufacturing has continued to move to cheaper and cheaper countries. To me that is far far more obnoxious then the rising costs of US built frames and forks as the magnitude of price increase for the US based stuff is less.

[Ken Robb]

. International Workers of the World Unite !

That would lead to Wobbly Bikes!! :banana:

Scott G.
You can tell its swell, its Mattel.[/QUOTE]

[LegendRider]

. International Workers of the World Unite !

That would lead to Wobbly Bikes!! :banana:

Scott G.
You can tell its swell, its Mattel.[/QUOTE]

Actually, it would lead to bikes that drift left...

[BumbleBeeDave]

Component costs seem to have doubled in the past 3-4 years while at the same time manufacturing has continued to move to cheaper and cheaper countries. To me that is far far more obnoxious then the rising costs of US built frames and forks as the magnitude of price increase for the US based stuff is less.

Remember several years ago when Shimano introduced 10 speed and the price of the gruppo and individual components went through the roof? They also attempted to restrict sales of their components over the web to "authorized" resellers. They were so obviously doing it just because they thought they could and get away with it. That annoyed me far more than any Serotta price increase.

BBD

[Steelhead]

I bought a CDA custom frame this year and put in my own Reynolds Ouzo Pro.

[Bill Bove]

I bought a CDA custom frame this year and put in my own Reynolds Ouzo Pro.

You bastid!! You're going to cause the allies to lose the war!!

[BumbleBeeDave]

I bought a CDA custom frame this year and put in my own Reynolds Ouzo Pro.

You obviously, OBVIOUSLY hate america! :eek: :rolleyes: ;)

BBD

[MadRocketSci]

has gone down

just sayin...not a gold bug or anythin

[Brian Smith]

Sandy, I have some answers for your questions.
I do think that Serotta's steel frameset is by far its best deal for its custom offering. But I don't quite see the rest of what you say as being as clear as it appears to you.

If it is so apparent that one should match frame with a very specific fork, then that should have been clear to Serotta, the producer. Why did Serotta previouslynot take this approach that is so apparent to you? It sold frames alone before and even offered other forks for sale.
Sandy

Serotta James got that one: now Serotta can and does offer its own fork.


Perhaps a customer wants to independently make his own choice on forks. Cyclists have been doing that for years. Maybe Joe Customer does not want to pay $720 for a F3 fork, when Joe Customer can pay a fraction of that for an Ouzo Pro and be quite satisfied.
Sandy

Cycle buyers have trusted the manufacturers to provide the appropriate fork for many more years than they have seperately bought their own forks. I think the right way to view this is that nobody is stopping you from using an Ouzo Pro on your Serotta. I'd be curious to hear your impressions of it compared to the F3 that comes with your frame. I think the real objection you're having is that the cost of a 2008 Serotta has gone up when you didn't anticipate it doing so as much. Fair enough. You have a history of doing that, and then eventually getting used to the idea. I like what benb says on page 5. Perhaps since I work for the company I can better apreciate a price raise on a revised F3 fork than I can appreciate the costs of more cheaply made expendables going up even more dramatically.


I am to be so naive to think that Serotta's recent acquisition of a facility that makes forks does not have a MAJOR impact into how it sells and markets its forks and frame/fork combinations? Does Serotta want to sell its forks or a Reynolds fork?
Sandy

No, and its own.


SandyDid this change in fork philosophy simply coincidentally change after the facility puchase? Are you saying that an Ouzo Pro won't work nor will any other fork not work? Are you saying that Joe customer should not make his or her own choice?
Sandy

Yes. I'm saying that it won't work best, and that Serotta new frame purchasers aren't concerned strictly with what works, since there a boatload of dumped inexpensive bikes that will work which can be bought for less than the price of the Serotta frame alone. This isn't against choice, you are free to purchase any other fork not from Serotta and try it out. I'm all ears about your riding impressions. I don't think that there is a better option for a customer to choose, but they are able to make another choice too.

Sandy
I will probably buy an all steel CDA with the F3 fork, but you make it sound as if that is the only way to go, and make a statement about " ...the sensibility about considering another fork than the F3 anyway..." That casts a negative shadow on someone tying to make his or her own decision.
Sandy

You're right Sandy, I was casting a negative shadow. I was over-reacting to some negative criticism, and to the idea that buyers should choose their forks as add-ons. I'm honestly sorry about that, since I know you're not here to take pot shots against Serotta or its policies.

Sandy
I don't mean to sound harsh, and your knowledge of what goes on in the industry and about all things bike related is vast. But I really don't think you are being totally fair and correct in what you are saying.

One might say that the F3 fork is he ideal fork for the CDA etc., but there certainly has been a change, and most understandalbly so, in the approach Serotta has taken in offering and marketing.
Sandy

Yes, there has been a change in approach. I'm not sure that it is so understandable. I can tell you that some people within Serotta itself were upset to near outrage at this change, but I like it and I'll defend it.


OK, now let's see if someone can twist my usage of the word expendables more than the rather grotesque depiction of my earlier usage of the word grotesque!






Sandy[/QUOTE]

[rnhood]

Perhaps you should give us some examples of those cheaply made expendables that are going up much more dramatically than the Serotta steel fork so we will better understand your frame of reference.

[Sandy]

I have reentered this thread to respone to your post as you were very kind to do so with mine.

I actually anticipated the price of the all steel CDA going up a few hundred dollars. I initially posted in response to someone asking about purchasing an all steel CDA with the F3 as a unit. I pointed out that a F3 fork was an additional cost over the F fork.

If I buy a new bike, it will probably be the all steel CDA with the F3 fork. The extra few hundred dollars is not that meaningful to me. But it is very much so for others and Serotta is probably changing the structure by which it is offering its frames/framesets for sale. I don't think that there was ever a time in Serotta's history in which a frame purchase was tied into a fork purchase in order to get the frame. Some don't like that if it is true. People want to make their own choices. They have always had that option. I don't need an option because I am going to buy the F3 fork.

My Ottrott ST is a 2004, and it has a F2 fork. My CSI had the F1 fork. I preferred the F1. I did not care about the weight.

You make a very valid point about me. I have a history of making an objection about the cost of some of Serotta's frames. Serotta makes its prices, and the purchaser decides whether to pay the price or not. Simple, really. I actually think that the CDA is a great frame/frameset and well worth the price. Serottas are special.

I have thought for several years that Serotta should perhaps consider producing a cheaper carbon frame and/or frameset that would be more in the price range offered by other producers. A more affordable Serotta carbon bicycle. Having the new facility could certainly help in this direction. Perhaps a non-custom with some options such as color and design. A bike that might expand the nature of its customer base. As prices escalate in Serotta's line and off shore bicycles continue to be produced with lower costs, I fear that there may be a shrinkage of Serotta's customer base. Perhaps, it is time to consider a more aggressive approach and try to reach those potential customers who simply will not buy a Serotta for one reason- Price.

Presently, I believe that there is real confusion as to what is actually being offered in the Serotta road bike line. At this point, I may order a CDA in a few days and I really don't understand the structure of how it will be sold- frame or frameset. Two different levels of each model or not. I will contact my local dealer or Smiley or Serotta direct to obtain such info.

I recently purchased a new car. It is easily one of the few best handling cars in the world, no matter price. I also have a 11 year old BMW M3. It does everything well. Very well. It has been a genuine pleasure to drive. It works. But the new car seems to do it better, in so many ways. It works a little better. Consider fork choices. I don't doubt that the F3 fork works best. But another fork might work good enough for many cyclists. Do you want to take the choice away from the customer?

I love Serotta bikes and have great respect for Ben Serotta and the integrity of the entire operation. I want only the best for Serotta.


Sandy

[Steelhead]

I wonder why Serotta doesn't make a nice steel fork like Viscious Cycles, I.F. et al... Maybe at least a 'cross fork.

[jdgreen]

Hello Seven

[jdgreen]

So you think that Serotta should eliminate our factories in Saratoga and Poway, CA and begin producing bikes overseas using off-the-shelf carbon sub-components? That would certainly lower our prices.

The reason prices are going up (primarily) is because we (Serotta, Seven, IF, Moots, etc) are competing for raw materials with MNCs like Boeing and Airbus.
Needless to say we don't have the same buying power and so we get poor pricing and even worse delivery.

I'm sorry, but where do these issues raise the price of steel? Also, your bikes are works of art and the labor is what makes up the majority of the price, the acutal steel is a very small portion of the bike price. On a dollar cost for the raw material, it could not justify this increase.

[1centaur]

"I also have a 11 year old BMW M3. It does everything well. Very well. It has been a genuine pleasure to drive. It works. But the new car seems to do it better, in so many ways. It works a little better."

So Sandy, you would not view the differences as "grotesque"? :)

Grotesque did not need to be twisted, it was not the right word for subtle and debatable differences.

Always better to focus on the positive when marketing, IMO: the more expensive fork is "more carefully matched", "designed to work with the frame," "the perfect complement for the exact ride characteristics of the Coeur," "completes the design to our highest standards," etc. When you start suggesting that anything but a specific fork is a regrettable, ill considered choice with very significant (to the point of being grotesque) consequences you start to lose the confidence of the pretty sophisticated group of buyers on this forum.

[Sandy]

"I also have a 11 year old BMW M3. It does everything well. Very well. It has been a genuine pleasure to drive. It works. But the new car seems to do it better, in so many ways. It works a little better."

So Sandy, you would not view the differences as "grotesque"? :)

Grotesque did not need to be twisted, it was not the right word for subtle and debatable differences.

Always better to focus on the positive when marketing, IMO: the more expensive fork is "more carefully matched", "designed to work with the frame," "the perfect complement for the exact ride characteristics of the Coeur," "completes the design to our highest standards," etc. When you start suggesting that anything but a specific fork is a regrettable, ill considered choice with very significant (to the point of being grotesque) consequences you start to lose the confidence of the pretty sophisticated group of buyers on this forum.

I could safely say that my cycling is rather grotesque! :rolleyes:

There are two parts in the communication process- the content and the delivery of the content. I agree with you that the delivery, by Serotta, was not done too well in some instances. I sense a defensive position taken by some.


Sandy

[vaxn8r]

I don't get the anger on this thread. I think some, maybe less experienced cyclists really are afraid to branch out from Serotta to another builder. Hey, I absolutely love my Serotta. But I love some other bikes equally, if not more.

There's lots of choices out there. Serotta is at the high end of the $$ scale. I get why. Does everyone? Do you realize what you pay for when you purchase a Serotta? Is that worth it to you? No need to take it out on the folks which are working hard at Serotta. I promise there are other viable alternatives which will place just as big a smile on your face as a Serotta. There is no patent on fantastic bikes. You just need to know where to look. If you don't believe that then I guess you are stuck.

ps. Don't look at Vanilla. Sacha has closed the wait list as he tries to catch up to a 5+ year back log and reassess his business model. Not that Serotta=Vanilla ATMO and that's not meant as a negative.

[Climb01742]

i think there are two basic things going on serotta these days:

there are substantiative, quantifiable manufacturing-related reasons for price increases. cost of materials, cost of labor, cost of health-care...all rising. also servicing debt like the purchase of the carbon facility. good, solid, thoroughly valid reasons for price increases.

then there are the non-balance sheet reasons. investors, especially new investors, want one primary thing: ROI. hello price increases. also there seems to be a strategy to push serotta further toward a "luxury" good. pricing is one very valid, very tested way of marketing your product as a luxury good. premium pricing works. mrs climb showed me a LV handbag yesterday made out of canvas -- not even leather -- that retailed for $1600.

from a business perspective, both sets of reasons are valid. serotta has nothing to apologize for. both james and brian argue forcefully and knowledgeably that in the pursuit of quality, a price must be paid. no argument there. but i think if everyone were being completely candid, the second set of reasons is also at play. those are harder to openly argue for. but being candid myself, if my company could charge premium or super premium prices for our services, i'd do it in a heartbeat. i'm in business to create a quality product and make as damn much money as i can, as fast as i can. but i can't couch the second part purely in language applicable to the first part. half of my motives are noble, half are crass. so be it. i think the same is true for serotta. fair enough.

my one bit of marketing advice, though, is this: every brand needs an entry level product. to get folks into the tent, to get them climbing the brand/product ladder. i'd have kept the CDA below $2k as my brand entry point. to continue our car analogies, as the bmw 3 series as crept up in price, it was harder to use it as an entry point into the brand. hence the upcoming 1 series. or like milk in a grocery store, a bit of a loss leader but it gets you in the door.

as always, this advice is worth exactly what serotta paid for it. :beer:

[soulspinner]

I don't get the anger on this thread. I think some, maybe less experienced cyclists really are afraid to branch out from Serotta to another builder. Hey, I absolutely love my Serotta. But I love some other bikes equally, if not more.

There's lots of choices out there. Serotta is at the high end of the $$ scale. I get why. Does everyone? Do you realize what you pay for when you purchase a Serotta? Is that worth it to you? No need to take it out on the folks which are working hard at Serotta. I promise there are other viable alternatives which will place just as big a smile on your face as a Serotta. There is no patent on fantastic bikes. You just need to know where to look. If you don't believe that then I guess you are stuck.

ps. Don't look at Vanilla. Sacha has closed the wait list as he tries to catch up to a 5+ year back log and reassess his business model. Not that Serotta=Vanilla ATMO and that's not meant as a negative.


+1
I think Serotta has passed into territory that now says I am competing with the elitest, not as in Temple et al but now if Im spending 2900 for a steel frame and fork Im no longer competing with a Crown Jewel, now its Kirk, Sachs, Baum. The percentage increase is more than other manufacturers, too, even if you subtract their expensive forks( Im using the UL ). For 2900 I switch materials as I can go titanium.

[Smiley]

"my one bit of marketing advice, though, is this: every brand needs an entry level product. to get folks into the tent, to get them climbing the brand/product ladder. i'd have kept the CDA below $2k as my brand entry point. to continue our car analogies, as the bmw 3 series as crept up in price, it was harder to use it as an entry point into the brand. hence the upcoming 1 series. or like milk in a grocery store, a bit of a loss leader but it gets you in the door."
+100 to Climb

SO Climb looking at LV bags now, TROUBLE my friend :)

[DarrenCT]

"my one bit of marketing advice, though, is this: every brand needs an entry level product. to get folks into the tent, to get them climbing the brand/product ladder. i'd have kept the CDA below $2k as my brand entry point. to continue our car analogies, as the bmw 3 series as crept up in price, it was harder to use it as an entry point into the brand. hence the upcoming 1 series. or like milk in a grocery store, a bit of a loss leader but it gets you in the door."
+100 to Climb

SO Climb looking at LV bags now, TROUBLE my friend :)

Smiley, very good thoughts. Serotta probably makes more coin on the more expensive frames like Ottrott, Attack, etc.

I remember that "loss leader" term from college :)

[MarleyMon]

I recall seeing discussion of longer than anticipated wait time for the CDA this spring & summer.
It makes sense to raise prices if demand is high.
I think it adds to Serotta's credibility that they design a frame based around a certain fork
and sell them as a package; you know, its the whole gestalt thing.

re: entry level - the stock sized bikes fill that role, TWIT*






*Thats What I Think

[pdxmech13]

this is great.....both my bikes are becoming more
valuable as time goes on......never thought i'd see the day.

[victoryfactory]

...I'd rather ride a CDA than a "piece of art" type bike with fancy
lugwork and paint.
I think it's a tossup as to which custom steel has better technology, and
I can't see myself riding "art" it would be like driving around in a ferrari.
Not my style, even if I could afford it.

VF

[e-RICHIE]

...I'd rather ride a CDA than a "piece of art" type bike with fancy
lugwork and paint.
I think it's a tossup as to which custom steel has better technology, and
I can't see myself riding "art" it would be like driving around in a ferrari.
Not my style, even if I could afford it.

VF
mebbe not confuse "art" with products made by folks whose
business model didn't include expanding their production atmo?
these are nearly all emotionally charged purchases and hardly
ever bought out of real need.

[J.Greene]

i
my one bit of marketing advice, though, is this: every brand needs an entry level product.

Why is this true? Can't cannondale, trek, giant etc provide the entry into a high end experience for Serotta?. In my business I don't try to be all things to all people, I try to be all things to some people. If I market wisely I don't need to get them in the door by price. Anyway that's a road best avoided.

JG

[soulspinner]

+1; here here.

[Climb01742]

Why is this true? Can't cannondale, trek, giant etc provide the entry into a high end experience for Serotta?. In my business I don't try to be all things to all people, I try to be all things to some people. If I market wisely I don't need to get them in the door by price. Anyway that's a road best avoided.

JG

it depends on what you're selling. service businesses are different from manufacturing or consumer goods. if serotta wanted to be a one or two product company, then you'd be right, no entry level product is needed. but as serotta is, or so it seems, trying to be a multi-product, multi-price-point business, a more affordable entry point might make sense. and you confuse "getting them in the door BY PRICE" with having an attractively priced offering to bring them into the fold. even armani sells t-shirts.

[e-RICHIE]

even armani sells t-shirts.
and i'd wager the margin is higher on t shirts than on couture atmo.

[benb]

Where is the disconnect here?

Are people failing to notice that the big companies are charging just as much as Serotta for their non-custom taiwan-sourced bikes?

I started bringing my copies of Velonews into work and leaving them in the kitchen.

One of my co-workers couldn't believe a Cervelo frame listed for $5000 in the magazine. They are frequently seen built up for $10,000 in the pages of the same magazine. Why is this frame worth almost 4x what a Giant TCR Composite made down the street was worth 2-3 years ago?

Trek is selling a bike near $10,000 aren't they?

Anything custom made in the US is looking better and better and the CDA, Legend, etc.. are looking pretty good IMO.

At least with a bike from a US manufacturer you're not paying huge amounts for their profits + funding a bunch of needle-packing Pro Tour weenies.

If the fad ends it might be interesting to see if prices drop as the "luxury" crowd moves on to something else.

[J.Greene]

and you confuse "getting them in the door BY PRICE" with having an attractively priced offering to bring them into the fold. even armani sells t-shirts.

Would the example above bring them into the fold?

I understand your point, but I think that in high end luxury goods the brand is very much a large part of the product. It's not manufacturing vs service. It's about how you get someone to buy into your brand. I am not conviced that a smaller company needs to dilute it's brand. Meivici to entry price point seems broad to me.

JG

[MarleyMon]

...an attractively priced offering to bring them into the fold. ...
Fierte?

[Climb01742]

I am not conviced that a smaller company needs to dilute it's brand. Meivici to entry price point seems broad to me.

JG

it is subjective -- as is, sadly, much about marketing -- that a custom steel frame, built to serotta standards for just under $2k, would dilute the brand. back to cars: does a $24k 1 series dilute the bmw brand and a 12-cyclinder 765? not if the 1 series is a "true" bmw, i.e. a modern day 2002. i'd even argue that a 1 series/2002 would enhance the bmw brand by taking it back closer to its roots. as would a great affordable steel frame -- for citizen racers, says -- bring the brand back to its roots. but yes, this is all very subjective. please feel free to, as my clients do, tell me i've got my head up my...ashville. :D

[Climb01742]

Fierte?

maybe. but the essence of serotta is custom fit/custom frame, so an affordable custom steel might be more "on brand" but that may be a quibble.

[William]

Hey, everyone is on the demographic bandwagon these days. Study your customer base, pick your niche, plan your attack, and set it in motion. If you've got the name, choose your poison: high volume low price, low volume high price. And remember, perception is everything. How do you go about protecting the luxury niche?

A.) Constantly "educate" your best customers as to the price/value equation - why the product is worth the price.

B.) See marketing as an investment, not a cost.

C.) Stay sensitive to the equity inherent in brand - be careful not to dilute brand identity by overextending with new products and services.

D.) Understand "the loyalty effect" - the impact on long-term profitability of retaining and growing your share of best customers.

E.) Heighten service and intelligent "one to one" contact with best customers - find creative ways to meet their need to feel "special".

F.) Build collaborations and partnerships with like minded marketers.

atmo.


William


(from the William business archives)

Studying the product perception and loyalty on this website provides valuable information for Serotta. I'd be very surprised if they weren't looking at that aspect from the marketing standpoint.

[Sandy]

Where is the disconnect here?

Are people failing to notice that the big companies are charging just as much as Serotta for their non-custom taiwan-sourced bikes?

I started bringing my copies of Velonews into work and leaving them in the kitchen.

One of my co-workers couldn't believe a Cervelo frame listed for $5000 in the magazine. They are frequently seen built up for $10,000 in the pages of the same magazine. Why is this frame worth almost 4x what a Giant TCR Composite made down the street was worth 2-3 years ago?

Trek is selling a bike near $10,000 aren't they?

Anything custom made in the US is looking better and better and the CDA, Legend, etc.. are looking pretty good IMO.

At least with a bike from a US manufacturer you're not paying huge amounts for their profits + funding a bunch of needle-packing Pro Tour weenies.

If the fad ends it might be interesting to see if prices drop as the "luxury" crowd moves on to something else.

You may be missing an important point. Consider Trek, for example (applies to Cervelo too). Yes, Trek has a $10,000 bike- One of the 2008 Madone iterations. I would have no interest in purchasing a $10,000 bike. But the Madone series has a vast selection of choices desgned for specific rider needs- pro fit, performance fit (longer head tube and shorter stem) and wsd (woman specific design). Within each of the 3 groups, there are 3 different levels of carbon integration, and several bikes with different option groups. A potential purchaser has the option of selecting a bike at HIS OR HER PRICE POINT, with varying option choices. One can purchase a fully equipped Madone, with very nice components and wheels at a price way below what Serotta has to offer.

The above is why I have thought for several years that Serotta should really consider producing a carbon fiber bike or frame or frameset at a PRICE that is more reachable for more cyclists. As Serotta (and others) prices escalate and off shore carbon bikes and frames being produced and sold at significantly lower prices, I fear that Serotta's customer base will shrink. Serotta aims at a particular segment of the market, but competition in that portion of the market is becoming greater, and Serotta thus far has not (I believe) attempted to penetrate a much larger market segment- quality bikes at a lower PRICE POINT.

That said, I recently test rode a 2008 Trek Madone. The bike literally scared me. The front end was very quick and light feeling. It lacked the stability and solid feel of a Serotta. Steeper ht angle, smaller trail, shorter wheelbase, smaller bb drop.It was extremely efficient in transferring pedal input into forward motion, but you had to be constantly on top of it. One very short ride and I was done with it. Two days later I was riding my Ottrott- What a remarkable difference in stability. Just amazing.

But perhaps the differnce in the Trek and the Serotta is reason for Serotta to enter that lower price point market. Without riding a Serotta you can't appreciate it, want it, and then purchase it. Too many potential Serotta purchasers will never try one and will buy a Trek or Cervelo because of PRICE, and because they get a bang for the buck.

Perhaps, it is time for Serotta to reconsider its market approach.

Perhaps, I am clueless about it all.


Sandy

[sg8357]

William, what is the "luxury niche" and how do you define luxury ?

Scott G.
Who slept thru general semantics, so has trouble grokking marketing.

[fiamme red]

William, what is the "luxury niche" and how do you define luxury ?

Scott G.
Who slept thru general semantics, so has trouble grokking marketing.Here in Manhattan, "luxury" (e.g., condominiums and hotels) = "grossly overpriced."

[William]

William, what is the "luxury niche" and how do you define luxury ?

Scott G.
Who slept thru general semantics, so has trouble grokking marketing.


One definition: a niche market dealing with, and/or focusing on the higher/highest economic group of product buyers.




William

[William]

Here in Manhattan, "luxury" (e.g., condominiums and hotels) = "grossly overpriced."

Applies across many product types IMHO. It's mainly about 1.) perception, then 2.)quality. The general percantage of each can vary widely in the make up.




William

[benb]

Sandy the question is what does the new Madone frame and fork sell for with no components on it?

A CdA, Concours, whatever can also be built up in a wide range of configurations at a very wide range of price points. But neither Serotta nor your dealer can get the components at a price anywhere near what Trek pays. What if that DA group that we pay $2000 at retail for only costs Trek $300 when they promise to buy 10,000 units? 100,000 units?

The Trek is a special consideration as it is supposedly actually built in the US..

But for a lot of these bikes that is not the case, so the question mark is much bigger on those bikes then it is for a Serotta, a Vanilla, a Sachs, whatever.

The actual raw costs of CF are far from astronomical. If there isn't an enormous profit margin built into many of these CF bikes then 80% of the price is probably going to pay off engineering or Pro Tour sponsorship or something. 2 lbs of Carbon fiber just doesn't cost thousands of dollars, and if the guy building it is making $1 per hour and you're not paying his health care the costs just aren't that high when they're building thousands of frames in a few sizes.

How many Madones are on the road? If Trek put $5,000,000 into the engineering how much is that per bike? What about $10,000,000? How many years will Trek run that design?

I don't know the answers to these questions.. but I think they're interesting and need to be asked before the "little guys" are tarred and feathered.

I can't find any Trek #s but Giant for example grew past 5,000,000 bicycles per year over 5 years ago.

[CNY rider]

snipped.....
Perhaps, it is time for Serotta to reconsider its market approach.

Perhaps, I am clueless about it all.


Sandy
Sandy I love reading your posts.......but you're doing a lot of hypothetical thinking, and I suspect worrying too much.

Last I heard, customers were snapping up Serottas faster than they could crank 'em out.
I don't recall it ever being anytinhg but that way over the past several years.
I suspect they have an incredibly firm grasp on who their customers are and how to keep them satisfied.

[MarleyMon]

... the essence of serotta is custom fit/custom frame...
Last year they introduced a new line of stock sized bikes, the HSG.
The line is popular enough to continue, I understand.
I think the essence of the Serotta brand is "High Quality" and the stock entry level bikes are marketed as:
"our years of experience building great custom fit frames make it possible
to offer high quality stock sized bikes in a variety of materials."

Also, the CDA is steel, so if its the entry, a buyer would have to change materials to "move up."

[Climb01742]

Last year they introduced a new line of stock sized bikes, the HSG.
The line is popular enough to continue, I understand.
I think the essence of the Serotta brand is "High Quality" and the stock entry level bikes are marketed as:
"our years of experience building great custom fit frames make it possible
to offer high quality stock sized bikes in a variety of materials."

Also, the CDA is steel, so if its the entry, a buyer would have to change materials to "move up."

you could well be right. no biggie either way. this, however, is from the homepage:

"Serotta Bicycles makes handmade bicycle frames using the very best titanium, steel, and carbon fiber. Each frame is custom fit and custom made to the cyclists specifications. "

[J.Greene]

please feel free to, as my clients do, tell me i've got my head up my...ashville. :D

nah dude, I'm interested in this stuff and your pov. Dialogue makes the world go around atmo.

JG

[MarleyMon]

...from the homepage:

"Serotta Bicycles makes handmade bicycle frames using the very best titanium, steel, and carbon fiber. Each frame is custom fit and custom made to the cyclists specifications. "
sure, quote primary source material, why don't ya!
I wonder what the sales mix is: stock v. custom
and what is projected in the next few years?

[mflaherty37]

M=$$$
C=$
Production Capacity = 6M=8C.
dRevenue/dt = 0 @ PC=6M

[soulspinner]

M=$$$
C=$
Production Capacity = 6M=8C.
dRevenue/dt = 0 @ PC=6M

You gotta translate that - one too many stouts?

[mflaherty37]

I'm tryin to say that why tie up resources making steel bikes when there is more profit in carbon ones.

[vaxn8r]

Where is the disconnect here?

Are people failing to notice that the big companies are charging just as much as Serotta for their non-custom taiwan-sourced bikes?
I started bringing my copies of Velonews into work and leaving them in the kitchen.

One of my co-workers couldn't believe a Cervelo frame listed for $5000 in the magazine. They are frequently seen built up for $10,000 in the pages of the same magazine. Why is this frame worth almost 4x what a Giant TCR Composite made down the street was worth 2-3 years ago?

Trek is selling a bike near $10,000 aren't they?

Anything custom made in the US is looking better and better and the CDA, Legend, etc.. are looking pretty good IMO.

At least with a bike from a US manufacturer you're not paying huge amounts for their profits + funding a bunch of needle-packing Pro Tour weenies.

If the fad ends it might be interesting to see if prices drop as the "luxury" crowd moves on to something else.
I don't know where you shop but I haven't seen any $10K Trek Madones. I just saw one equipped with DA and a slew of high end Bontrager stuff and it was in the $4k range. I saw a Lemond CF with Ultegra for ~$3K. That's ready to ride for the price of a CDA and fork. Not really comparing bikes, just that your premise is whack.

[vaxn8r]

....That said, I recently test rode a 2008 Trek Madone. The bike literally scared me. The front end was very quick and light feeling. It lacked the stability and solid feel of a Serotta. Steeper ht angle, smaller trail, shorter wheelbase, smaller bb drop.It was extremely efficient in transferring pedal input into forward motion, but you had to be constantly on top of it. One very short ride and I was done with it. Two days later I was riding my Ottrott- What a remarkable difference in stability. Just amazing.... Sandy

Sandy, you crack me up. If what you say is true, I don't think I wanna try your bike ;)

[Len J]

esoteric marketing strategy talk is one undeniable fact.

Serotta charges what they do for their bikes....because they can.

They have consistantly raised prices higfher than any cost inflation and guess what........they are still sold out.

They came out with a frame that is priced well above anything in the market at the time.....and they sold out....and are still selling it at a price that is at least $2,000 higher than some pretty high quality frames......and it is still selling.

They can require you to buy their higher priced forks based on "designed for" even though they are standard rakes....because they can & it ensures plant utilization......and they will still sell out the plant.

They do it because they can with no market penalty (in terms of unused capacity).....everything else you read here in terms of reasons and rationale are pure marketing spin.

Now, before anyone thinks I am taking a shot at Serotta, I'm not....I think they are smart...I think they are focused on the niche they serve and I think they will be successful.

BTW, I disagree about the entry level frame.......all I think an entry level steel frame would do is steal capacity from higher margin models, and dilute the Panache associated with the brand. They are sold out for the same reason as e-richie is.............people aspire to own one some day. (I'm considering the quality and craftsmanship an ante in this poker game!)

Simple economics...if they overprice their product & demand suffers enough that the plant is idle (part of the time) to the point where the profit model is severly impacted, price will be adjusted to fill the capacity.

Len

[Ahneida Ride]

has gone down

just sayin...not a gold bug or anythin

yup .. frns are not real money ....
frn = unredeemable private corporation shopping coupons.

Salaries, health care, taxes, raw products, water, electric, petrol
Insurance ,,,, etc... are all paid in frn.

Prices are not going up, the frn is getting weak. cause the fed and the
banks create em out-ha thin air. It's called counterfeiting.
and collect interest on nothing

Don't blame Serotta ..... for a 10K bike ..

It will not be long before we all rent out bikes from the banks.

I remember a time when everyone OWNED a car.
Everyone (most anyway) could actually afford a college education.

[barry1021]

esoteric marketing strategy talk is one undeniable fact.

Serotta charges what they do for their bikes....because they can.

They have consistantly raised prices higfher than any cost inflation and guess what........they are still sold out.

They came out with a frame that is priced well above anything in the market at the time.....and they sold out....and are still selling it at a price that is at least $2,000 higher than some pretty high quality frames......and it is still selling.

They can require you to buy their higher priced forks based on "designed for" even though they are standard rakes....because they can & it ensures plant utilization......and they will still sell out the plant.

They do it because they can with no market penalty (in terms of unused capacity).....everything else you read here in terms of reasons and rationale are pure marketing spin.

Now, before anyone thinks I am taking a shot at Serotta, I'm not....I think they are smart...I think they are focused on the niche they serve and I think they will be successful.

BTW, I disagree about the entry level frame.......all I think an entry level steel frame would do is steal capacity from higher margin models, and dilute the Panache associated with the brand. They are sold out for the same reason as e-richie is.............people aspire to own one some day. (I'm considering the quality and craftsmanship an ante in this poker game!)

Simple economics...if they overprice their product & demand suffers enough that the plant is idle (part of the time) to the point where the profit model is severly impacted, price will be adjusted to fill the capacity.

Len

Many more choices for frames than components. It's economics 101.

b21

[palincss]

maybe. but the essence of serotta is custom fit/custom frame, so an affordable custom steel might be more "on brand" but that may be a quibble.

It wasn't always this way. I recall a Serotta model aimed at entry level racers (real racers, not poseurs) - Davis Phinney model, perhaps? - back 10 or 15 years ago.
Anybody else remember this?

[Sandy]

Sandy, you crack me up. If what you say is true, I don't think I wanna try your bike ;)

In 1998, I test rode a bunch of bikes, steel, ti, aluminum, and carbon fiber- at least 15, before I decided on a Serotta. I only really liked 4 of them. One was the Trek 5200/5500. I could have biught it very easily and I think that I would have really liked it.

I have never ridden a bike that scared me like the Madone (none of the above 15 plus bikes came any place close). I should first state that I do not handle a bike too well. That is very clear. Importantly, perhaps, is that the seat post of the 58 cm performance fit Madone was much too short for me. After putting at its maximum extension height, it was a full 2.5 cm too low. In addition, the saddle was visibly closer to the handlebar then on my bike. I asked if I could move it back later if I liked the initial ride. When I came back I told the salesman that the bike really scared me as if there was little weight on the front end. It seems scarey in that the front end felt as if it was not connected to the road and wanted to go where it wanted to go. I noticed this in the first several pedal strokes on a flat street. I told the salesman that maybe I was sitting so low in the sddle, too close to the handlebar and with so little weight over the front end, that maybe it was the problem. He said no, it was the nature of the Trek (geometry design) especially compared to the Serotta (He know Serottas well).

I may try it at another store set up differently. Not only was it amazingly harder to control than the Serottas I have owned, but much more thatn the Trek 5200/5500 series that I had really enjoyed riding.

I remember, I believe, from several years back, I think, that you found it almost funny that I thoght that my Ottrott was so good, but this is different than that situation entirely. For whatever reason, this Trek was outright scarey to ride, so scarey that I would not go down a hill with it.

It was also very light and seemed to be able to accelerate (and probably climb) very well.


Still Shaking Still So Scared Still ST Serotta Sandy

[vaxn8r]

Sandy, that's OK, I don't mean to sound grumpy.

I've always thought Treks handled a bit on the conservative side. Having said that, wheelset and set up may have made an impact on your impressions.

[gary135r]

Sandy, you should call me if you have serious questions of if you're considering purchasing a frame. I can answer your questions and inform you about the pricing for 2008.

Coeur d'Acier SE w/ F3 Fork - approx $2900
Coeur d'Acier GS w/ S-Fork - approx $2500

It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that the cost of producing high-quality goods in the US is escalating at a remarkable rate. Welcome to the globalized economy.
Wheh! glad I bought my CIII when I did.

[gary135r]

Well Serotta does offer good discounts to military personnel so if you want a really good deal go see your friendly recruiter. :)
How much? I am currently active duty right now.

[davyt]

Serotta Military Purchase Program (http://www.serotta.com/military.html)

[navclbiker]

I saved about $600 on the frame and fork! :D

[mso]

Some great deals and the bikes are in beautiful condition :)

[Ahneida Ride]

it is subjective -- as is, sadly, much about marketing -- that a custom steel frame, built to serotta standards for just under $2k, would dilute the brand. back to cars: does a $24k 1 series dilute the bmw brand and a 12-cyclinder 765? not if the 1 series is a "true" bmw, i.e. a modern day 2002. i'd even argue that a 1 series/2002 would enhance the bmw brand by taking it back closer to its roots. as would a great affordable steel frame -- for citizen racers, says -- bring the brand back to its roots. but yes, this is all very subjective. please feel free to, as my clients do, tell me i've got my head up my...ashville. :D


2002 was one of the best cars ever built !

[Larry]

I am glad I bought my CDA frame in April.
Best bike decision I have ever made.
Custom. Exactly what I had in mind in all respects.

[biorider]

I just started ordering a CDA SE and ran afoul of the unstated requirement for the F3 fork to be part of the order. My dealer wasn't aware that this is a new requirement for '08.

It seems to me if I'm ordering a custom bike, it means custom. I should be able to choose a fork.

[mcteague]

Missed this thread the first time around. For some reason I can't see getting a steel frame with a carbon fork. I guess it's just aesthetics but steel frames MUST have steel forks. To do otherwise is like putting Shimano on a DeRosa.

Tim McTeague

[jpw]

You also pay $415 more for the all steel frame with the F3 fork compared to the frame with the carbon rear and the F fork. In addition, if you subtract the price of the F3 fork (painted- $720) from the $2905 for the all steel frame and the F3 fork, you get $2225, which is about $300 more than last year's price for the frame, if I remember correctly. You do get more paint color choices and design options with the more expensive pairing, but there are some upcharges there too.

I am very close to purchasing an all steel CDA (or whatever you call it) and I only want a single color, so I get no real help in the way the purchase is structured. I probably want a single color that they don't have listed anymore (midnight blue) and that is an upcharge too.


Steel Sandy
Well, I can top that Sandy.

http://www.cyclefit.co.uk/serotta_price_08.html

A CDA CX is GBP 1,800, which equates to approximately $ 3750 at the present exchange rate.

The CDA SE is GBP 2,000, or approximately $ 4150.

This includes shipping and import duties/ taxes but even so it a lot of lolly for a steel frame.

If anyone is coming over to England do remember to throw a CDA 56cm frame in your suitcase before you leave for the airport and I'll buy you a warm beer or two as part payment :-)

[Pete Serotta]

We all have views on the way we like our steel. Kelly built a CSI (one of the last for me and one for SPOKES with a carbon fork) and we could not be happier. Variety is one of the spices of life//// :beer:


Missed this thread the first time around. For some reason I can't see getting a steel frame with a carbon fork. I guess it's just aesthetics but steel frames MUST have steel forks. To do otherwise is like putting Shimano on a DeRosa.

Tim McTeague

[e-RICHIE]

Variety is one of the spices of life//// :beer:
the other one is nigella lawson atmo -


http://www.foodtv.ca/blog/photos/catherine_jheon/images/65/original.aspx

[Samster]

It's not about being competitive. It's about deciding which game you want to play.

[jpw]

the other one is nigella lawson atmo -


http://www.foodtv.ca/blog/photos/catherine_jheon/images/65/original.aspx


The lovely Nigella - such a teaser though.

[dirtdigger88]

http://www.superchefblog.com/images/nigellalawson_muffin.png

jason

[Dan Le foot]

[QUOTE=Serotta_James]I would expect to see pricing from all other similar companies to go up as well. QUOTE]

Serottra is leading the way one more time, James. :D
Dan

[Dan Le foot]

[QUOTE=Climb01742]ii'm in business to create a quality product and make as damn much money as i can, as fast as i can. but i can't couch the second part purely in language applicable to the first part. half of my motives are noble, half are crass. so be it. i think the same is true for serotta. fair enough.

QUOTE]
Very true Climb.
The right price is the highest price you can get without losing the sale.....and still being able sleep at night. :p
I do think that $3k for a CDA is pushing the envelope. And I love mine. But I bought it slighly used for $1k.
Dan

[Dan Le foot]

Last I heard, customers were snapping up Serottas faster than they could crank 'em out.
I don't recall it ever being anytinhg but that way over the past several years.
I suspect they have an incredibly firm grasp on who their customers are and how to keep them satisfied.

Not so sure about that, CNY
I was in a high end LBS last week that I hadn't visited in 6 months. Still had the same stock of HSGs and Fiertes. The one Legend and one Ottrott that I saw there 6 months ago were still there. Oh, so was the Meivichi. Perhaps San Diego is atypical.
Sales person said they are selling a ton of Looks. (555,585,595)
Dan

[Larry]

the other one is nigella lawson atmo -


http://www.foodtv.ca/blog/photos/catherine_jheon/images/65/original.aspx

Are they for real???????????????????

[soulspinner]

One of her assets is a degree form Oxford... :cool:

[dirtdigger88]

Are they for real???????????????????

http://img104.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc607&image=81967_nigellaoka06_122_607lo.jpg

http://img105.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc930&image=81963_nigellaoka05_122_930lo.jpg

jason

[DarrenCT]

http://img104.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc607&image=81967_nigellaoka06_122_607lo.jpg

http://img105.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc930&image=81963_nigellaoka05_122_930lo.jpg

jason

i would think so...

-d

[DarrenCT]

http://www.superchefblog.com/images/nigellalawson_muffin.png

jason

these... im not so sure about...

[dirtdigger88]

Are they for real???????????????????

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l162/dirt_011/2.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l162/dirt_011/1.jpg

love the shoes

jason