poor chain life...

[Dave]

I've previously posted a lengthy discussion on chain wear and how to measure elongation and roller wear separately (not with a Park Chain checker). I've also read a lot of complaints about poor chain life from users of the DuraAce 10 speed chain. My usual thought was that the poster either took poor care of his chain and/or didn't understand how to properly determine when a chain was truly worn out, since the Park tool (and others like it) can produce an exaggerated wear reading.

With this in mind, I put one DA 10 chain into regular use, along with the Campy 10 chains that I normally use on my bikes (with Campy 10 drivetrains). After using the chain for 2000 miles, I was surprised to find .20 inch of elongation, or 3-4 times as much as a Campy 10 chain with similar mileage. This elongation was measured using a full length comparison with a new chain, for the best accuracy. Roller wear on the DA 10 chain was not excessive, with the distance between the rollers increasing to .225 inch, only slightly more than the Campy chain. At this rate, the full length elongation on this chain will reach the maximum recommended .250 inch with no more than 2500 miles on it. I expect about twice that mileage from a Campy 10 chain. At that point, the Campy chain will have a fraction of the allowable elongation, but the distance between rollers will have increased to .240 inch, which I consider to be about shot.

Although a Campy Chorus UN chain costs $40-42, it can still be less expensive to use, if you get 5-6,000 miles from it. It should also be less destructive to cogs, since it suffers far less from elongation. It's elongation that changes the pitch of the chain and hastens the demise of cogs. Shimano users might want to try one of the "expensive" chains, to see how well it shifts and lasts.

I still recommend using 2-3 chains in a rotation, to maximize cog life by avoiding potential chain skip when a new chain is installed on used cogs.

[Too Tall]

As usual, Dave with the big brain :) Good info.

Apparently cold weather has come to (your) town? ;)

[chrisroph]

I don't know how you manage to get 5000 miles out of a campy chain. I keep mine clean and well lubed and ride em until they start feeling funky which is usually about 1500 miles or so I guess. Because I can always tell when they need to be replaced, I don't keep track of mileage or elongation. I just wait for them to talk to me.

[Dave]

I don't know how you manage to get 5000 miles out of a campy chain. I keep mine clean and well lubed and ride em until they start feeling funky which is usually about 1500 miles or so I guess. Because I can always tell when they need to be replaced, I don't keep track of mileage or elongation. I just wait for them to talk to me.

At 1500 miles my chains are almost like new. You can check them at all major wear areas (elongation, roller wear and side clearance) and they are in fine shape. The only thing I do that's unusual is apply my homebrew 4/1 mix of mineral spirits and motor oil after nearly every ride (every 40-60 miles). On the first 2000-2500 mile rotation of the chain, it never comes off for cleaning. I sometimes give it a heavy flushing and wiping with WD-40 or brushed-on mineral spirits before relubing. The second time I use the chain, it will have a master link to join the chain, so it could be removed for cleaning.

Campy chains don't suffer much from elongation, so I mainly keep track of roller wear. My chains are still quiet and shift just fine at 5,000 miles. The longest I've used one is 6000, but that was the slightly wider original model. I don't think the new UN model will last quite as long.

[RPS]

....snipped....With this in mind, I put one DA 10 chain into regular use, along with the Campy 10 chains that I normally use on my bikes (with Campy 10 drivetrains).....snipped.....Dave, are there any differences at all between the bikes or drivetrains that could affect chain life? Just curious.

[Big Dan]

What was the famous posting this guy had before?
Yeah the one about the Shimano owners not working on their bikes.......

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=381118&postcount=703

:confused:

[Too Tall]

Salient point, Dave does a top notch job maintaining his kit. We all could take a page from that book.

[Fixed]

bro d.a. chain replace every 2500 . imho
cheers


how long does your fix chain last ?
cheers

[dirtdigger88]

I just sell my bikes when the chain wears out- I didnt know you could replace them-

then again- I ride Shimano

Jason

[Too Tall]

bro d.a. chain replace every 2500 . imho
cheers


how long does your fix chain last ?
cheers

Ayup. Commuter bike gets three chains / yr. I buy em' by the bag.

[toaster]

I use the method of measuring for chain wear that Campagnolo recommends inside the manual packed in the product's packaging.

It requires a dial caliper and measures across a certain number of links.

I get around 2000-2500 miles.

[Dave]

Dave, are there any differences at all between the bikes or drivetrains that could affect chain life? Just curious.

No difference. Both of my bikes have the same 53/39/28 FSA triple cranks with 12-25 Campy Chorus cassettes. Both get ridden over the same mountainous routes.

I've used nothing but Campy 10 chains since they first came out in 2000. I'm using the new Campy UN chain now and expect that it will not produce quite as much life as the slightly wider, original model, but I do expect twice the mileage that I can get from a DA 10 chain. The DA obviously has soft pins and/or inner side plates. Wear on these items is what causes the elongation.

[Dave]

What was the famous posting this guy had before?
Yeah the one about the Shimano owners not working on their bikes.......

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=381118&postcount=703

:confused:

YES, I'm a firm believer in the superiority of Campy components and a mechanical engineer, for what that's worth. Campy shifters are not that difficult to repair. There are NOT a whole lot of tiny parts to go flying about when making an ergo lever repair.

That said, anyone familiar with the Campy shifter design also knows that the G-springs and maybe the index gear will wear out and need replacement before reaching the mileage that will doom a Shimano shifter to the trash pile. If you're not mechanically inclined and must pay for parts and labor at a shop, then the cost of buying and operating a Campy ergo shifter could get as high as a Shimano shifter.

Each brand has it's advantages. I like the shorter reach and smaller hoods of the ergo lever. Since I now use triple cranks for the mountains, the left shifter's simple and accurate control of a triple front derailleur is also another big plus. I also like the multiple shifts to smaller cogs with a single push of the thumb button. Weight weenies (not me) like the lower weight.

The brand that I can really criticize is SRAM. They don't offer a triple crank or shifter capable of operating one. After bragging about the simplicity of their shift lever design, you find a common price that's $200 more than a Record ergo lever.

[RPS]

Thanks Dave, good test.

I asked only because factors like rider power, speed, terrain, and chain alignment can all have a significant impact on results. On 9-speed Shimano I get a lot more than 2500 miles, so the wear rate you measured on DA 10 is interesting.

[Big Dan]

YES, I'm a firm believer in the superiority of Campy components and a mechanical engineer, for what that's worth. Campy shifters are not that difficult to repair. There are NOT a whole lot of tiny parts to go flying about when making an ergo lever repair.

That said, anyone familiar with the Campy shifter design also knows that the G-springs and maybe the index gear will wear out and need replacement before reaching the mileage that will doom a Shimano shifter to the trash pile. If you're not mechanically inclined and must pay for parts and labor at a shop, then the cost of buying and operating a Campy ergo shifter could get as high as a Shimano shifter.

Each brand has it's advantages. I like the shorter reach and smaller hoods of the ergo lever. Since I now use triple cranks for the mountains, the left shifter's simple and accurate control of a triple front derailleur is also another big plus. I also like the multiple shifts to smaller cogs with a single push of the thumb button. Weight weenies (not me) like the lower weight.

The brand that I can really criticize is SRAM. They don't offer a triple crank or shifter capable of operating one. After bragging about the simplicity of their shift lever design, you find a common price that's $200 more than a Record ergo lever.

It's obvious you have some motive to be trashing Shimano the way you do.
What's in it for you Dave? Come clean.....

:eek:

[Dave]

It's obvious you have some motive to be trashing Shimano the way you do.
What's in it for you Dave? Come clean.....

:eek:

Nothing in it for me - I'm retired. I just report the facts. If you like the way Shimano shifters work, you should use them. I made the switch to Campy in 1995, after using Ultegra STI levers from 1992-1995. If I had regrets, I'd switch back.

The chain life thing has been an issue since Shimano 10 was introduced. Posters on several forums have complained about poor chain life. What got me interested in the topic was my own chains never showing any significant elongation when checked with a precision 12" scale. After I'd used one Campy chain for 6000 miles, I knew that something had to be quite worn, so I performed an autopsy on it. Although the chain showed little elongation, the rollers were severely worn (.240 inch between them) and the side clearance had increased from .005 to .013 inch. That chain also wore out one of my cogs (the 19T). What that proved is that a chain did not have to exhibit a significantly increased pitch to wear out a cog. I also found that although a new chain skipped on this worn 19T cog, a chain with only a few hundred miles of use did not. That lead me to the idea of rotating several chains to get some mileage on each one, before any of the cogs became excessively worn. Once you've got 3 chains in a rotation, the cassette will last the life of all three chains. I think 12-15,000 miles is an acceptable life, but 1/2 that amount is not. Riders who ride terrain that permits a better distribution of cog useage may see even better results. Obviously, my terrain puts me in a 28/19 (seated) or 39/19 (standing) more than any other combination.

I also found that Ti cogs wear a lot faster than steel (no surprise there). Using only one chain with a new cassette, I managed to wear out both the 19 and 21T Ti cogs on a Record cassette in only 4000 miles. That chain obviously had far less elongation than the one with 6000 on it.

I've ridden a lot more miles on other cassettes without wearing out any cogs, but I tended to change chains annually, or at no more than 4000 mile intervals and I rode a lot flatter terrain in the Kansas City area. Riding in the Colorado mountains, I spend a lot of time in the 28T chainring, which greatly increases chain tension. The mountain roads tend be dirty for much of the year, which can't help cog or chain life either.

[Dave]

I use the method of measuring for chain wear that Campagnolo recommends inside the manual packed in the product's packaging.

It requires a dial caliper and measures across a certain number of links.

I get around 2000-2500 miles.

If I adhered to Campy's suggestion, that's about all the mileage I would get from a chain too. Campy's suggested method is no different than using a Park chain checking tool or other tool that measures between rollers, except the "worn" reading is only .4% longer, instead of .5%. It doesn't measure elongation, just a mixture of elongation and roller wear.

I'd be curious to know how many chains you go through before getting chain skip on one cog. My advice is if you remove a chain when it reaches the 5.220 inch length specified by Campy is to compare the total length with a new chain. Most likely, it's not even one pin diameter longer. If so, I'd keep the chain. When you install a new chain in the future and get one cog skipping, you've got two choices. Install a new cassette that will mate with the new chain, or reuse some of the old chains on the old cassette. I plan to do the later and perhaps double the life of the casssette. All you need to reuse an old chain is a properly fitting master link. One link should last through the second half-life of two chains.

Edit: As a side note, using the Campy method, my Campy 10 chains measure right at 5.220 with mileage in the 2000-2500 range, but the DA chain with 2000 miles on it measures way over that limit at 5.245. It's seems like a suggestion intended to sell lots of chains.

[terrytnt]

This is a very interesting discussion that truly impacts EACH of us. There are a few questions that come to mind:

1) Without purchasing expensive equipment, e.g., dial calipers, campy chain tool, is there a 'ball-park' milage range that would guide us for replacing chains? I would like to avoid always asking my LBS and know from reading 'you experts' that 3000k is about max even though I'm meticulous about keep my drive-train cleaned and lubed.

2) How do we determine cog wear?

I'm probably more your average to above average mechanic. I do many of my repairs, except for BB/ Cranks, head-set and chain removals. And the only reason I don't do these is because I've not been taught by a pro how to do it the right way. I've been debating whether to purchase a Camp chain removal tool so I can do this myself.

Last question, I think I've determined what cog slip is. I've noticed recently that after a non-pedalling sequence, I sometimes hear a snap/pop sound which I believe is the chain slipping over a cog tooth before setting in place. Is that right?

My equipment/ stats: Campy Record (with 7000K on the cogs and 3000K now my second campy record chain).

[Tom Kellogg]

I generally get about 4-5k miles from a Dura-Ace chain. I DO keep them very clean and lubed. BUT the ways that Dura-Ace and Record (Chorus) chains wear are very different. All Shimano chains "stretch" quite a lot in the first 1500 miles or so while Campys do not. In fact, Campy chains only stretch if they are mistreated big time (like with lots of dirt and no cleaning). As noted earlier, Campy chains show their wear mostly in the rollers. Dura-Ace rollers are much tougher, but the plates (and therefore the pitch) "grow" over the miles. Each company's chains have their plusses AND the drawbacks. In fact, after installing and using about a bazillion high end chains over the years, I can't say that one is better than the other, just different.

If you use link pitch as your guide for replacement, a Shimano chain will tell you when it is time to give up the ghost but a Campy will NOT as Dave noted. Campys make it much tougher. Beyond measuring roller diameter, the trick I have used is to observe the Campy chain closely as it slips onto and off of a new cassette cog. A chain in good condition will slip on and off very smoothly while a worn one hesitate as it slips onto the next tooth just above the upper jocky wheel. Not scientific, but it works. A dial caliper is much better.

[SPOKE]

Dave,
have you checked to see if the chain side plates have significant wear after "x" miles?? have the side plates started to "work" thier way off the ends of the pins holding the chain together??
based upon what i see on my bikes and customers bikes elongation isn't really the problem leading to failures. i see the chain breaking because the side plates work their way off the pins. 10spd chains with 2k miles or more are suspect in my book for this reason.
replacing the chain after 2k miles gives me "piece of mind" that it won't fail due to breakage. it also allows the cassette to last longer too. if the chain costs $40 and i get 2k miles out of it then it only costs me about .02cents/mile. i ride about 5k miles/year so it costs me $100 in chains and another $100 for 2 tires. $200/yr is a small price to pay for the joy of riding my bike. :beer:

[terrytnt]

Tom, your comments are helpful. As I've cleaned and fine-tuned the drive-train, I have indeed noticed a slight hesitation with some cogs during shifting. Interfering by your account, time for a new chain (assuming a new cog).

So, how then do I determine cog wear? Is that a caliper answer or just a matter of time with Record Ti cogs? And if it's time, what would you say is max. ball-park milage before replacing a single cog? I'm now running 7000k on my Record cogs.

thanks,

tnt

[Big Dan]

Nothing in it for me - I'm retired. I just report the facts. If you like the way Shimano shifters work, you should use them. I made the switch to Campy in 1995, after using Ultegra STI levers from 1992-1995. If I had regrets, I'd switch back.

The chain life thing has been an issue since Shimano 10 was introduced. Posters on several forums have complained about poor chain life. What got me interested in the topic was my own chains never showing any significant elongation when checked with a precision 12" scale. After I'd used one Campy chain for 6000 miles, I new that something had to be quite worn, so I performed an autopsy on it. Although the chain showed little elongation, the rollers were severely worn (.240 inch between them) and the side clearance had increased from .005 to .013 inch. That chain also wore out one of my cogs (the 19T). What that proved is that a chain did not have to exhibit a significantly increased pitch to wear out a cog. I also found that although a new chain skipped on this worn19T cog, a chain with only a few hundred miles of use did not. That lead me to the idea of rotating several chains to get some mileage on each one, before any of the cogs became excessively worn. Once you've got 3 chains in a rotation, the cassette will last the life of all three chains. I think 12-15,000 miles is an acceptable life, but 1/2 that amount is not. Riders who ride terrain that permits a better distribution of cog useage may see even better results. Obviously, my terrain puts me in a 28/19 (seated) or 39/19 (standing) more than any other combination.

I also found that Ti cogs wear a lot faster than steel (no surprise there). Using only one chain with a new cassette, I managed to wear out both the 19 and 21T Ti cogs on a Record cassette in only 4000 miles. That chain obviously had far less elongation than the one with 6000 on it.

I've ridden a lot more miles on other cassettes without wearing out any cogs, but I tended to change chains annually, or at no more than 4000 mile intervals and I rode a lot flatter terrain in the Kansas City area. Riding in the Colorado mountains, I spend a lot of time in the 28T chainring, which greatly increases chain tension. The mountain roads tend be dirty for much of the year, which can't help cog or chain life either.

1995? and you are an expert? That's the big problem with the internets....

:confused:

[RPS]

1995? and you are an expert? That's the big problem with the internets....

:confused:Dan, how do you judge who is an expert?

How do you differentiate between 20 years of experience and 1 year of experience 20 times over? :cool:

[Big Dan]

Dan, how do you judge who is an expert?

How do you differentiate between 20 years of experience and 1 year of experience 20 times over? :cool:


RPS, you make your own decision. I made mine already....

:p

[Dave]

1995? and you are an expert? That's the big problem with the internets....

:confused:

I thnk you've missed something. All I said was I switched to Campy in 1995. I went from 8 to 9 to 10 speed with Campy and I've ridden Campy 10 since it was introduced (now on my 8th season). How much more experience can you get?

In addittion to the BSME I got in 1981, I've got 20 years in the business of machining aircraft and nuclear weapons parts, so I'm well versed in manufacturing processes, fits, clearances and the use of precision measuring equipment. I was overhauling car engines at age 16, so I've got a fair amount of mechanical aptitude. All I'm doing here is using a precision scale, a micrometer and dial calipers to measure chain wear. I learned how to use those tools by age 16 also.

I've been riding and wrenching on bikes for 23 seasons - how many does it take to become expert in your opinion? I haven't seen any expert comments from you - just hot air.

My suspicion is you're one of those guys who takes his bike to the LBS to let the 16 year old kid change the chain or adjust the RD. That's OK, I won't tell.

[Dave]

Tom, your comments are helpful. As I've cleaned and fine-tuned the drive-train, I have indeed noticed a slight hesitation with some cogs during shifting. Interfering by your account, time for a new chain (assuming a new cog).

So, how then do I determine cog wear? Is that a caliper answer or just a matter of time with Record Ti cogs? And if it's time, what would you say is max. ball-park milage before replacing a single cog? I'm now running 7000k on my Record cogs.

thanks,

tnt

There is a simple method to judge cog wear. Install a new chain and if any cog skips when heavy pedaling pressure is applied, that cog is shot. Some company (probably Rohloff) does make a wear gage, but I really don't see the value in it.

As for measuring chain elongation, the best on the bike method is a precision 12" scale. Hold one end on the edge of a pin. The pin at the opposite end will be covered by the scale when new. As the elongation gets close to 1/2 the pin's diameter, the chain is shot. If you can take the chain off, then a full length comparison with a new chain is preferable. The two chains can be hung from a finishing nail, with both hanging from the end with the inner plates exposed, or a nail can be hammered into a workbench and both chains stretched out, one on top of the other.

Since a Campy chain apparently has much harder pins, it's not likely to ever get long enough for elongation to be the wear limiter. That's when it's important to measure the roller displacement. Calipers will work, but so will a simple home made plug gage, made from a 6mm hex wrench or 15/64 drill bit. I ground down the end until it was about .070 inch thick. If it will slip between the rollers, I consider the chain to be shot. The distance between rollers is then in the .235 to .240 inch range. This dimension is not magical, but it's what my chain with 6,000 miles measured. When I measured my worn chain the OD of a typical roller was .006 inch smaller and the ID was about .010 inch larger. That's about 20 times the wear on the pins.

As for the question about side plates, I already noted that the clearance between the inner and outer plates increased from .005 to about .013, but I saw no indication of any pins in danger of coming apart. The ouside of the chain still looks fine (both Campy and Shimano).

One of the reasons for Shimano chains coming apart might be improperly installed joining and replacement pins. Another discussion at the RBR site noted the Shimano instructions which show that the chain must be wrapped through the RD such that the end with the inner plates exposed is on the left side of the lower section of chain. If the chain is installed backwards, the outer plates will pull on the pin instead of the inner plates and the joint will be much weaker. The same is true for a Campy 10 chain. If a chain comes apart anywhere else, it's either a manufacturing defect or the result of users who refuse to believe that there are a few extreme chain angles that should be avoided. I imagine most shops see the results of many inexperienced users who take poor care of their chains and figure that if the bike will shift into the big ring and largest cog, then there's nothing wrong with using this combo. Another problem with inexperienced riders is poor shifting technique - usually they shift much too late under heavy pedaling pressure. Do that a few dozens times and any chain might get hung up and pried apart at the pins. These folks probably should get a new chain frequently.

http://bike.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/SI_08V0C/SI_08V0C_13_v1_m56577569830612411.pdf

[Pete Serotta]

Lots of good information here. I have a very simple rule of chains.

"LEAVE IT TO SPOKES". for//////
If I mess with it he hits me and takes away my wine. :D

Shimano and Campy wars will go on for ever UNLESS it also becomes a big three war (SRAM).

This reminds me alot of the discussions about Miles per gallon and Miles per set of tires....THere are many factors that affect the overall figure.

Enjoy the chain and as Tom says, when if starts to act FUNKY - Replace!!!
:D :D :D


.

[regularguy412]

.

Last question, I think I've determined what cog slip is. I've noticed recently that after a non-pedalling sequence, I sometimes hear a snap/pop sound which I believe is the chain slipping over a cog tooth before setting in place. Is that right?

.

What you *may* be experiencing is a ratchet pawl inside the freehub mechanism slipping. It's a little hard to determine just from your description here on the forum, but a cog skip usually occurs under hard pedaling. A ratchet pawl slip can occur any time, but usually happens (to me, anyway) right after coasting and I just begin to take up the pedal stroke again. It's not usually a *big* clunk,, but more like a little *pop*. It might happen once during a ride, and may not happen again for weeks. To prevent the ratchet pawl slip, I use a light lube ( like Triflow or similar) inside ( and behind) the drive-side bearing cup on the freehub. I usually do this once or twice a year when servicing and re-greasing the bearings.

Mike in AR

[Dave]

What you *may* be experiencing is a ratchet pawl inside the freehub mechanism slipping. It's a little hard to determine just from your description here on the forum, but a cog skip usually occurs under hard pedaling. A ratchet pawl slip can occur any time, but usually happens (to me, anyway) right after coasting and I just begin to take up the pedal stroke again. It's not usually a *big* clunk,, but more like a little *pop*. It might happen once during a ride, and may not happen again for weeks. To prevent the ratchet pawl slip, I use a light lube ( like Triflow or similar) inside ( and behind) the drive-side bearing cup on the freehub. I usually do this once or twice a year when servicing and re-greasing the bearings.

Mike in AR

I agree with that. One of my Mavic wheels has that problem. They only have two pawls instead of three and the spring pressure is very light. Makes for quiet freewheeling, but no alwasy perfect engagement. It doesn't happen even once on every ride, but it seems to be right after I resume pedaling. It took along time for me to figure it out. Cog skipping usually takes pretty heavy pedal pressure and it won't just do it just once, but over and over, unless you back off. It should always occur right after installing a new chain, not during the life of a well used chain.

[stevep]

i would love to hear the comments on chains from a real chain engineer.
like a guy who actually worked for KMC or whoever actually manufactures the product. believe me this would be instructive.

some of my best conversations ever have been with real engineers who are solving problems and often the problem in one that never comes up when enthusiasts yap about stuff like this. its interesting to hear the real design and manufacture side of this issue.


i, for one, chuck the chain in about 2k and dont think about it any more than that... and the cassettes go in the trash every couple of years one way or the other...and i use ultegra chains or kmc and i dont care which is which cause i think they all work well enough for me.

[Too Tall]

My chain changing ways are similar to Steve and can't remember the last cassette I had to throw out.
Terry, you asked how to tell...another method is to grab the chain with your fingers and attempt to pull it off the cog. You should not see daylight.

[sspielman]

Add me to the long list who change the chain regularly....and benefit from extented cassette life as a result. I also think that you can't stress the importance of lubrication, either. I have never been satisfied with any of the "dry" lubricants (kind of an oxymoron when you think about it) and would much rather clean my chain more frequently. Good information in this thread that validates some of my own observations...Thanks Dave!

[ss-jimbo]

One of the reasons for Shimano chains coming apart might be improperly installed joining and replacement pins. Another discussion at the RBR site noted the Shimano instructions which show that the chain must be wrapped through the RD such that the end with the inner plates exposed is on the left side of the lower section of chain. If the chain is installed backwards, the inner plates will pulll on the pin instead of the outer plates and the joint will be much weaker.

Ok, if I'm picturing this right, when the chain moves around the to upper section the part that had the inner plates exposed is now on the right and that is the side that will be pulling the pin towards the chain ring.

So do we want the inner plates or the outer ones pulling the chain?

[Dave]

Ok, if I'm picturing this right, when the chain moves around the to upper section the part that had the inner plates exposed is now on the right and that is the side that will be pulling the pin towards the chain ring.

So do we want the inner plates or the outer ones pulling the chain?

That's correct, so the inner plates will pull on the pin when it's on the top section of chain. I goofed in my response and got the inner and outer mixed up.

[Tobias]

By the nature of a chain being in tension, don’t the pins pull on the inner and outer plates regardless of how it is installed? The difference I see is in the direction of travel, not which one is doing the pulling.

I trust Japanese engineers and figure there is something to it or they wouldn’t be specifying it, so I follow their directions.