Winter Cycling Clothes- More Input Plz~

[itsflantastic]

So,

as i've made apparent in previous posts. . . i'll be cycling through a Maine winter this year (and potentially every year thereafter).

The average temperature in February is a blistery 14 degrees, and has been known to go to -10. Now, I may skip the -10 days, but i want to be prepared for 10's and 20's on a regular basis.

What Brand is making the good stuff right now in terms of Jackets, Baselayers, etc. They all make winter jackets. The prices are all similar. That makes it a bit hard to choose.

Craft? Assos? Hincapie? Castelli?

What's the story? Let's assume I'm starting from scratch.

[itsflantastic]

Also, are bib tights with a chamois worth it? Or should I just get tights to wear over the shorts I already own?

[DRZRM]

I commute most of the winter in Boston, and I think the most important thing is wool base layers. Smartwool, Icebreaker, Ibex, and Rapha are great. Never smells, and keeps working even once you sweat through it.

[znfdl]

Check out foxwear. Lou will customize clothing for you and he has really good prices. For winter riding, check out http://www.icebike.org/

I second wool for a base layer.

[itsflantastic]

Nice. You guys rock. I wasn't sure on the wool baselayers, but I'll go for it and check out those mentioned brands.

[EDS]

Also, are bib tights with a chamois worth it? Or should I just get tights to wear over the shorts I already own?

I prefer the tights w/o chamois over shorts w/ chamois personally.

[CNY rider]

Also, are bib tights with a chamois worth it? Or should I just get tights to wear over the shorts I already own?

I'll differ from the post above and say that I prefer tights with an integrated chamois. I seem to get rubbing and then sores (sorry if this is TMI!) if I wear tights over shorts. I have a pair of Giordanas with fleece lining and windproof front panel. I ride about 2 miles downhill at the beginning of my commute, at speeds 25-30+ mph and can do so comfortably in those tights down to about 0 degrees F.

[sg8357]

Ibex for the jackets, they really are breathable.
Which means at 30+ mph you can feel the wind thru them.
To check to see if a jacket is breathable, cover your mouth with
the jacket material and try to breath. You can suffocate with
a lot of "breathable" stuff out there.

Wool is good, ever see a hypothermic sheep ?

For stylish wool try www.vintagevelos.com, the winter
trainers are very good.

Scott G.

[davids]

Nice. You guys rock. I wasn't sure on the wool baselayers, but I'll go for it and check out those mentioned brands.
+ a very large number on wool baselayers.

In very cold weather, I wear a wool baselayer (Kraft, I think - nothing fancy), a fleece-lined polypro jersey from Performance (again, it's not fancy), and a PI Kodiak Barrier jacket.

With a balaclava on top, and shorts/polypro tights/SmartWool socks/polypro booties on the bottom, I can be comfortable into the mid-teens, at least on a mountian bike.

The coldest weather I've ridden in was about 10. That was too cold. I now know my limits!

[Ozz]

You kinda need to find a brand whose cut fits your physique....

My favorite pieces:

The Craft undershirts are great, but I have not used their wool ones.

I have a couple Castelli winter jerseys that are really nice. Trim thru the body and long in the arms....just like me. Same for an Exte Ondo jersey I have. The Exte Ondo jersey has tons of reflective trim which is nice when I wear it alone.

My Asso Airblock jacket fits well (long arm//narrow chest), but could be a size too large. It is close enough. My Etxe Ondo Jacket fits well, but could be a touch longer in the back. It also has one big pocket instead of a divided one...can be annoying at times. The Asso jacket has lots of pockets...3 on the back, one on each side. It might have a zippered on in front too...I have not looked at it closely since last winter.

Smartwool socks are the coziest.....get some.

I'm still looking for some "great" tights. I have some Castelli's that are adequate...don't love them though. I am going to try some Exte Ondo this winter....their shorts work well for me so I will give them a shot.

I have some Gore gloves, Bellwether and Etxe Ondo Booties, and a Pearl Izumi skull cap that all seem to work well also....

That's what I know.....YMMV

[Ti Designs]

+ a very large number on wool baselayers.

In very cold weather, I wear a wool baselayer (Kraft, I think - nothing fancy), a fleece-lined polypro jersey from Performance (again, it's not fancy), and a PI Kodiak Barrier jacket.

With a balaclava on top, and shorts/polypro tights/SmartWool socks/polypro booties on the bottom, I can be comfortable into the mid-teens, at least on a mountian bike.

The coldest weather I've ridden in was about 10. That was too cold. I now know my limits!

For how long???

The reason I ask is that I've always sold clothing with the basic understanding that the moisture wicking layer, the thermal layer and the wind block layer have very different jobs and they don't work so well in the wrong order. For example, a few years back a few companies made wind block base layers. If there's much air movement past the thermal layer, your underwear is the least of your problems. Anyway the wicking layer works on vapor pressure, but the transfer away from your body doesn't work across a large temperature drop. So if it's 98 degrees as skin level and 85 degrees on the other side of the wicking layer you have a chance of staying dry. If the wicking layer is confused for a thermal layer and it's 50 degrees on the other side, you're gonna be a wet bag. The wicking layer does add to the R value of the whole system as it takes up space, but by itself it shouldn't be warm - that's no it's job. The thickness of the thermal layer is based on how cold it is, the thickness of the wicking layer is based on how long you're going to be out there. Given that moisture doesn't pass beyond a certain point (ever seen salt build up on a winter jacket - that didn't come from the road?) how quickly you saturate depends on the thickness of the wicking layer. I double up for my 4 hour rides...

[coylifut]

I just bought the below Castelli Jacket

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=23092&subcategory_ID=1130

Here in the Pacific NorthWest our demon is wet and somewhat cold as compared to the bitter temps you face in the NorthEast. I'll ride into the low 20s as long as the sun is shining, but not below. I figure if I have to actually cover my face with something, it's too cold to enjoy riding. I completely understand that you folks face those conditions for days-on-end and need to get out. I often ride when it's 36 and wet which I believe is a more challenging environment to stay warm in compared to 20 and dry.

I prefer the Craft bibs with the wind bloc front over bibs and for sure woolbase layers and socks. I search for merino and chasmere sweaters at thrift shops and use them as base layers. I find 'em for sub $20 and find that the bibs are high enough that even though they don't have a particularly long tail, they stay in position just the same. Cashmere is a large step above merino, but of course they're harder to find.

[chrisroph]

The assos airblock tights are the best winter tights I've ever owned. They are much better than anything else I've ever tried.

[Pete Serotta]

A friend of mine got the jacket/pants for himself and rides in VERY VERY cold tempts. He is Mr. Frugal and still thinks this ASSOS combo is great/

The assos airblock tights are the best winter tights I've ever owned. They are much better than anything else I've ever tried.

[1centaur]

TiD is so very right about when to wear which windblocking layer. The Craft S3s with the windblocking layer are fine at 55 degrees but miserable under a non-windblocking jacket at 40 degrees. My big discovery last year was a wool baselayer (Craft - awesome as always) and a windblocking thermal jacket (Assos). The combo makes it unnecessary to use three layers which gives greater freedom of movement on the bike.

As for tights, depends how easygoing you are on chamois choice. I like no chamois so I can wear my favorite summer bibs, but finding bibs that block wind from waist to ankle in the front without a chamois can be limiting. If you don't have that windblock in what some catalogs call the "waist" area then you'll need the Craft Gundeshorts or the equivalent. I just ordered a new Craft bib and we'll see how that goes. Unfortunately, windblocking material tends to be movement restricting and I have yet to find the magic combo of easy movement and full windblocking.

Most gloves aren't great at the coldest temperatures because they let coldness seep in at the fingertips - exactly what you don't want. I go with max warm gloves and glove liners, get a little sweat build up, and then the cold air gets in there and cools it down. Bummer.

Finally feet - most important is to have loose shoes because thick socks (cross country skiing socks are my full-on weapon) making tight shoes make for cold feet - a layer of warm air makes a big difference in your shoes. Booties on top of course.

Balaclava and Assos Stinger Cap for the head. If my nose starts freezing, it's too cold for me. That's about 33 degrees for me. I'm colder than most people who ever post on these threads.

[davids]

For how long???

The reason I ask is that I've always sold clothing with the basic understanding that the moisture wicking layer, the thermal layer and the wind block layer have very different jobs and they don't work so well in the wrong order. For example, a few years back a few companies made wind block base layers. If there's much air movement past the thermal layer, your underwear is the least of your problems. Anyway the wicking layer works on vapor pressure, but the transfer away from your body doesn't work across a large temperature drop. So if it's 98 degrees as skin level and 85 degrees on the other side of the wicking layer you have a chance of staying dry. If the wicking layer is confused for a thermal layer and it's 50 degrees on the other side, you're gonna be a wet bag. The wicking layer does add to the R value of the whole system as it takes up space, but by itself it shouldn't be warm - that's no it's job. The thickness of the thermal layer is based on how cold it is, the thickness of the wicking layer is based on how long you're going to be out there. Given that moisture doesn't pass beyond a certain point (ever seen salt build up on a winter jacket - that didn't come from the road?) how quickly you saturate depends on the thickness of the wicking layer. I double up for my 4 hour rides...
It was 2 hours or so, riding my mountain bike at Wompatuck. I was cold (not frigid) the entire time. This was a couple years ago - I don't remember exactly what I was wearing. But it was pretty similar to what I listed above.

[Ti Designs]

It was 2 hours or so, riding my mountain bike at Wompatuck. I was cold (not frigid) the entire time. This was a couple years ago - I don't remember exactly what I was wearing. But it was pretty similar to what I listed above.

Yeh, I think this is why so few people put on many training miles around here. They think the choise is cold or wet or a short ride. For the start of the ride I'm cold, 30 minutes into it I'm warm and dry, 3 hours into the ride I'm saturated and tired, four hours into it I'm home. Getting the layering thing ain't so bad, it's finding clothing that works for you that really sucks. Now if I find something that works I spend a weeks paycheck and get as many of them as I can - sometimes 2 (bike shops don't pay so well). I never go by other people's suggestions, people heat up and sweat at different rates. I insist on wearing a wicking layer over my shorts and under my tights, not may people do that. I also layer big tights and use a scarf to keep my neck and chest warm, many people find that's too warm. Even the type of tights is personal preference. Pearl Izumi makes their AmFib tights which are thicker wind front, thinner back - should be just the ticket. I'm on a fixed gear with a stupid low gear, the knees don't bend freely enough for me. Your mileage may vary...

My point is that if you can't be comfortable in all but the coldest weather, you may be doing something wrong.

[davids]

My point is that if you can't be comfortable in all but the coldest weather, you may be doing something wrong.
Jeez Ed. 10 degrees is all but the coldest weather 'round these parts. I'm comfortable in the mid to high teens, I swear!

[gdw]

You'll need some good footwear and gloves/mittens if you intend to do rides of several hours this winter. What are you planning to wear and also what are you going to be riding? Bangor averages over 6 feet of snow annually and a road bike might not be too practical. A mountain bike with studded tires might be a good addition to your stable.

[rwsaunders]

25 degrees above zero (with no ice) has been my limit of pain. PI thermafleece bibs, a windproof helmet liner and a PI Vector Jersey with a base layer seem to work well to that temperature. It's the wind chill that does the most damage (neck, toes, fingers). I buy fleece gloves at TJ Maxx and Marshall's, which work as well as any other cycling-specific glove that I've purchased.

I ordered the Northwave winter boots (on sale) based on a tip from BB Dave, which I'm looking forward to trying. I previously have used neoprene shoe booties over standard road shoes with wool socks. The chemical foot warmers work well too.

Check in with the group when you hit your first 7 degree ride this season, as you can be our test monkey. In Maine, that will probably be next week. :cool:

[KeithS]

Here in Minnesota we have two seasons, winter and a couple of months of bad skating...

In my experience I work at blocking the wind I have most of the brands you named and through much experimentation have found (for me) if my feet or head are cold I am miserable. I have some Castelli windproof shoe covers, They are 7" or so high and are have a thin lining of fleece, so thermal and windproof and over the top of my shoes I have had several brands and these are by far the best I have owned. I have the Pearl Izumi lid cover too. I layer a lot. That whole wicking/thermal/windproof thing that TiD discussed makes a lot of sense. I have a great pair of fleece lined, windstop tights, can't wear them over 30, too warm, instead I wear bib tights over polypropelene longies. I have a great pair of gloves made by I don't know who, with a Cannondale logo, but they too have a small amount of fleece and stop the wind and have just the right amount of padding on the palm. I have a high tolerance for cold in my hands, descended from a long line of scandinavian dairy farmers.

I don't like to ride in ice and snow, and the sand and salt they use to remove same. So here the snow cover normally starts in November sometime and lasts through March, as David and TiD both mentioned you can be comfortable in all but the coldest weather. But here at least the ice, loose sand/salt on the roads are always hazardous.

My road bikes are on trainers, my LBS does spinning classes 5 days/week, so I get my interval training in all winter and sweat a lot, and my Fierte spends the winter indoors. I do things in the cold that belong in the cold, skiing, ice fishing, riding an old Cannondale cross bike with fat tires... I saw a jersey on that ride across Iowa this summer that said something like "In the summer I live to ride, in the winter I just get fat" Been there, done that.

Good riding.

[Ginger]

If you can't stay warm with bike clothes, make sure you look at X-country ski clothes too. Sporthill and whatnot. When it gets really cold, I start borrowing from the winter sports. Keeping in mind that I ride a bit colder than others (I look at what my buddy is wearing and I subtract a layer...)

Wool underlayer for everything from toes to the top of my head. If it's really cold I'll wear polypro nylons over my shorts and under my wool layer. I have some PI amfibs that I'll wear over that, but I'm with ti designs, they don't have enough room in the knee for a long ride.
Long sleeved fleece jersey or if it's really cold, a tight-knit wool sweater on top of the wool underlayer with a vest or a jacket with windfront on top of that.
Wool beanie under the helmet. Neck warmer. ear muffs.
Wool socks and Over the ankle boots. Sucks to get snow in the tops of your boots if you have to ride home after work with those same soaky wet shoes. (If it's an older winter shoe I take apart the bottom of the shoe and shoot some caulk in there when I set my cleat position to waterproof it)

Hands. My favorite are moose mitts which are cordura/fleece pockets over the handlebars (for a atb) that allow you to throw a chemical warmer in there and wear summer gloves. Barring those, I'll pull out a set of poly pro liners and use my neoprene kayaking gloves with chemical warmers on the back of my hands between the liners and the gloves.
A little warmer and I'll use ski gloves
Warmer I use PI lobster mitts

The biggest thing with riding every day in the winter is having enough clothes, or being good about washing everything or using wool that you don't have to wash as often so you can do it day in and day out.

Army Navy Surplus is your friend for the tight-knit wool sweaters (could get them fairly cheap there ages ago...)

Learn to protect all exposed skin with a coating of some sort. Messy, but it works.

Good luck!

Oh...you'll find as you ride into winter that you work it all out yourself. Need another layer/this works/now I'll try that etc etc.

[markie]

I find I have really good times with my cheap REI soft-shell jacket. It keeps the wind out enough, but has some more breathable panels:

http://www.rei.com/product/740237

Underneath I like the icebreaker merino long-sleeve underwear. 40 degrees and I'll wear one. I'll add another at 30 and another at 10. Below that and I think about adding a second soft shell jacket. That me down to -20.

I like these hincapie tights:

http://www.hincapiesports.com/details.php?ccode=220&scode=RBT-SMMW00

Lake boots

Balaclava that covers my nose and clear lab-specs.

Smartwool neck gaiter is great when it is really cold.

[slugbottle]

Any decent jacket will take you to about 30 degrees. Below that, and especially below 20 degrees, Assos is my choice. On my 30 mile commute, I ride the AirBlock with a longsleeve wool baselayer, and below 15 degrees I also wear a fleece vest. Expensive but worth it:
http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='6392-10'

My gloves down to about 40 degrees are polypro liners inside fingerless cycling gloves. Below that I use Specialized SubZero, which I have found to be the best I've worn over the years.

For tights over my cycling shorts, Col d'Lizard Polartech Powerstretch 100 are very warm and comfortable at low temps and outperform anything else I've used in the past. I believe icebike has recommended same:
http://www.coldlizard.com/cgi/wc.dll?GEKKO~catalog~DETAIL~34

For feet, I wear sandals with layers of socks. 1 wool sock for anything above 40-45 degrees. Below that, Cabella's Thinsulate/Gore-Tex sock over the wool, and below 15 degrees or so, I put on a 2nd pair of wool socks over the Cabellas. I can't say enough good things about this setup - no circulation restiction, waterproof, etc.:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?id=0005228810874a&navCount=1&podId=0005228810874&parentId=cat601709&masterpathid=&navAction=jump&cmCat=MainCatcat470076-cat601709&catalogCode=XH&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat601709&hasJS=true

Below 25 degrees or so, I also use a neck gaiter, which in all but the coldest weather will permit a loose jacket zipper after a couple of miles.

I use Helmuffs on the helmet straps down to about 20 degrees (and they're comfy up to about 60 degrees).

I also wear Headsweats skull cap with ear flaps:
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?sku=18495

And below about 20 degrees, I add a fleece headband with ear protection.

New England commute.

The next thing I want to try for the winter commute is a driveshaft/internal geared bike:
http://www.dynamicbicycles.com/buy/Bikes.php?prodid=59

Enjoy the winter commute in Maine!

[TimD]

Check out foxwear. Lou will customize clothing for you and he has really good prices. For winter riding, check out http://www.icebike.org/


+10. Custom pants (including specification of temperature range) for less than half the cost of a top-quality insulated bib tight.

[znfdl]

For cold weather I use the following equipment:

Woolistic Spoutnik cycling cap, with ear flaps

Woolistic wool thermal base layer

Woolistic jersey

Foxwear Jacket, with airblock fleece in front www.foxwear.net

For really cold days, I use a thermal suise jacket

Foxwear fleece tights with airblock fleece in front. These are made with articulated knees.

Wool socks

For really cold days, I use Hotronic battery heated footbeds. At zero degrees and set on high, my feet sweat.

I have three different weights of booties

I either use pearl izumi amfib gloves or fleece gloves with goretex overmits.

My most important piece of equipment, is the nokian studded tires for nasty snowys / icy days.

[itsflantastic]

This is all way way good info. I've got some time before the really cold weather hits. I'm going to get a few pieces of icebreaker and smartwool stuff and experiment with the wool baselayers and then take it from there.

I'm definitely thinking wool is the way to go this year as a result of all of your input. Never would have really considered it otherwise.

Thanks for letting me pick your brains everyone!!!

Dan

[markie]

Look for sales on wool at steepandcheap.com or not so good deals at the parent backcountryoutlet.com

I have ibex, icebreaker and smartwool clothing. I think the ibex might be the nicest, although the icebreker tops are very close. The smartwool is not quite in the same league in my opinion.

Where are you located?

[itsflantastic]

in brooklyn ny until Oct. 1, then it's off to bangor maine.
Thanks for the tip. . >I'm definitely leaning the icebreaker way, though i'm a little concerned over sizing.

If i get the length/height right, they automatically assume I have a few extra inches on my waist and chest.

I'm a tall skinny dude. According to their measurements I need an XL for height but a M for chest/waist etc. . .

I'm just gonna order larges and hope for the best!

[thejen12]

I suggest that the first winter you keep a log of what the temperature was, what you wore, and what you wish you would have worn. This will help you a great deal the next winter when you can't remember what worked for a 10 degree ride, etc. I did this when I first started riding and it helped a lot the next year or two.

Jenn

[dwightskin]

Really, read the clothing section at http://www.icebike.org carefully.

Also, all these recommendations change depending on the duration of your riding. I ride year round in Minneapolis (down to -20F) but only for 30 to 40 minutes each way on my commute.

Other folks here train for the Arrowhead Ultra where last year they rode for hours where it never got above 0F!!! (I think most had chemical toe warmers.)

You also might want to join the icebike mailing list for other tips. Studded tires are recommended at those temps and locations also.

In general, the torso and legs are easy to keep warm using and clothing with windblocking front and breathable back. Then add layers underneath depending how cold it is.

For Head, I recommend Seirus Balaclava. The vented holes help expel moisture from your breathing.

For Feet, I used boots with clips and straps. Probably PowerGrips are most ideal. Icebike.org has other suggestions.

For hands, I have different gloves for each change in 10F temps. But down below 15, you probably need mittens, not individual finger gloves. Hunting and army surplus are as good as fancy gloves at these temps. Or look at Mountaineering gloves.

Dwight

[dekindy]

Here in Minnesota we have two seasons, winter and a couple of months of bad skating...

In my experience I work at blocking the wind I have most of the brands you named and through much experimentation have found (for me) if my feet or head are cold I am miserable. I have some Castelli windproof shoe covers, They are 7" or so high and are have a thin lining of fleece, so thermal and windproof and over the top of my shoes I have had several brands and these are by far the best I have owned. I have the Pearl Izumi lid cover too. I layer a lot. That whole wicking/thermal/windproof thing that TiD discussed makes a lot of sense. I have a great pair of fleece lined, windstop tights, can't wear them over 30, too warm, instead I wear bib tights over polypropelene longies. I have a great pair of gloves made by I don't know who, with a Cannondale logo, but they too have a small amount of fleece and stop the wind and have just the right amount of padding on the palm. I have a high tolerance for cold in my hands, descended from a long line of scandinavian dairy farmers.

I don't like to ride in ice and snow, and the sand and salt they use to remove same. So here the snow cover normally starts in November sometime and lasts through March, as David and TiD both mentioned you can be comfortable in all but the coldest weather. But here at least the ice, loose sand/salt on the roads are always hazardous.

My road bikes are on trainers, my LBS does spinning classes 5 days/week, so I get my interval training in all winter and sweat a lot, and my Fierte spends the winter indoors. I do things in the cold that belong in the cold, skiing, ice fishing, riding an old Cannondale cross bike with fat tires... I saw a jersey on that ride across Iowa this summer that said something like "In the summer I live to ride, in the winter I just get fat" Been there, done that.

Good riding.

http://www.castelli-us.com/pc-814-10-lycra-shoecover.aspx

these are the only covers currently shown on their website and it does not look like the model you are talking about.

[benb]

MTB and Road in the winter are two very different things.. on the coldest days MTB is the way to go, you stay much warmer at 10mph in the woods (preferably pine forest) then you do at 20mph out on a barren road.

I've never bothered to try wool.. cycling wool is outrageously priced IMO and trying to get peoples money out of nostalgia.

For road here is approximately where I go... most of my riding in the winter has actually been in and around Ti Designs stomping ground.

Socks - same for any weather summer or winter - synthetic wicking - Booties go on in the 40s.. 1/4" thick foam type - velcro infinitely preferable to zippered, as the zippers get clogged/corroded with road salt over time. Remove the insole of your shoe and check if it is open to the cleat.. if it is put a layer of duct tape over the cleats to prevent water from getting in and hopefully insulate a little.. metal cleats will draw heat out of your shoe. Thick socks just lead to cold toes unless you buy a larger shoe size.

50s - light tights + either arm warmers or a light fleece.

mid-high 40s - Booties, shorts, "Amfib" PI tights (have fleece on the inside + windblock on the front), 100wt fleece over wicking base layer. (Something like Nike Drifit, etc..), helmet cover goes on

30s - Same as 40s, but helmet cover comes off, balaclava or winter hat goes underneath the helmet (keep a second cheaper helmet set up to fit over a hat, etc..) - and I will take off the fleece and wear a winter cycling jacket over the base layer

teens and 20s - Shorts + Thin Tights + "Amfib" tights. Upper body gets wicking layer + fleece + gore tex shell. Balaclava + helmet cover. You know it's working when your sweat wicks out and freezes on the surface of the gore tex shell. In the teens eyes become a problem.. if you don't wear glasses you're bordering on needing ski goggles. If you do wear glasses they will have a fogging problem under the goggles. For me vision becomes a real problem on the road.. I can't pick up any speed without my eyes tearing uncontrollably killing my vision.

Longest ride in the 20s or so for me is about 70 miles.. I've done lots of 50 milers in 30 degree temperatures in relative comfort.

IMO in the 20s road cycling starts to get pretty lame and XC skiing starts to be a lot more fun... not much reason to be riding the bike unless you're doing base training for racing. MTB with studded tires is a heck of a lot more fun then being on the road. Easier to stay dry in the snow then the road salt + slush, no need to worry about the cars as the roads get progressively narrower as the winter goes on.

[Fixed]

cool and cold bro

[Pastashop]

I'd be interested in something that's less tight / can be worn in a more or less casual setting - perhaps along the lines of the thick wooly pants that Rivendell used to carry...

Has anyone tried these in any combination?..

http://www.coldlizard.com/cgi/wc.dll?GEKKO~catalog~DETAIL~10

http://www.coldlizard.com/cgi/wc.dll?GEKKO~catalog~DETAIL~8

http://www.coldlizard.com/cgi/wc.dll?GEKKO~catalog~DETAIL~133

[BarryG]

The secret to warm toes in icy weather is creating a vapor barrier. Stephenson's Warmlite (http://www.warmlite.com/start.htm) has been preaching the gospel for decades.

Sounds weird, but a little plastic wrap works wonders.