Jan Ullrich

[Fixed]

By Andrew Hood
VeloNews European correspondent
Filed: September 13, 2007
Jan Ullrich might be retired, but his legal troubles seem far from over.

On Thursday, German prosecutors revealed that the 1997 Tour de France champion transferred 25,000 euros (about $35,000) to controversial Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes for his services in 2004. They're also following leads of a similar bank transfer in 2006.....
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/13286.0.html
cheers

[mike p]

How stupid, lance payed in unmarked bills.

Mike

[swoop]

for those that haven't worked it out yet... grand tour. top 20.... they're all on the program. it is what it is. what it isn't .. it isn't and shouldn't be novel or a surprise to you. this is how it works. you like sports... you have to stop buying into the fantasy that sports is different than the rest of life.

you want power to change things.... try and make informed decisions in your own life and try and see the big picture.
people want fantasy instead of reality.... i'm not sure why. i don't like these athletes any less... i went into it as a fan knowing that this is professional sport. the myth of meritocracy involves a lot of fantasy.

nike made a lot of money and so did trek.. selling you the idea that because some douchebag trains in the rain and has big lungs he's the chosen one. i don't know why folks are so hungry to fulfill that archetype.
but.. its just a cartoon.

i loved watching ullrich ride. i'll miss him. the dude was born to kill on a bike. show me a top 20 grand tour gc rider that's clean and i'll still giggle at you. cycling is as close to boxing as a sport can be... it's not nice.. but even nice sports are dirty.
i can appreciate some dirt... life gets dirty when you really look at it. sports are a mirror. its not about these guys being bad.. they are showing us who we are.

[e-RICHIE]

show me a top 20 grand tour gc rider that's clean and i'll still giggle at you. cycling is as close to boxing as a sport can be...
should be a sticky atmo.






ps
arrange disorder
:) :) :)
:) :) :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p

[Grant McLean]

for those that haven't worked it out yet... grand tour. top 20.... they're all on the program. it is what it is. what it isn't .. it isn't and shouldn't be novel or a surprise to you. this is how it works. you like sports... you have to stop buying into the fantasy that sports is different than the rest of life.

you want power to change things.... try and make informed decisions in your own life and try and see the big picture.
people want fantasy instead of reality.... i'm not sure why. i don't like these athletes any less... i went into it as a fan knowing that this is professional sport. the myth of meritocracy involves a lot of fantasy.

nike made a lot of money and so did trek.. selling you the idea that because some douchebag trains in the rain and has big lungs he's the chosen one. i don't know why folks are so hungry to fulfill that archetype.
but.. its just a cartoon.

i loved watching ullrich ride. i'll miss him. the dude was born to kill on a bike. show me a top 20 grand tour gc rider that's clean and i'll still giggle at you. cycling is as close to boxing as a sport can be... it's not nice.. but even nice sports are dirty.
i can appreciate some dirt... life gets dirty when you really look at it. sports are a mirror. its not about these guys being bad.. they are showing us who we are.

Is this your audition reel for a Versus commentary gig?

:)

g

[Fixed]

bro i don't care who does what ..pro riders can drink high octane gas for all i care ....bro war on ideas never works what happen to to us i heard the other day models will bared for being overly thin ..if cats want to be pros live with it or get a job or go to school imho

[1centaur]

"its not about these guys being bad.. they are showing us who we are."

If that were true, "we" would not be so disgusted.

I for one don't believe sports fans in the aggregate are a bunch of hypocrites who would do whatever it take to get what they want, rules/laws be damned. Call us naive for believing that any sports winner got there through effort and talent alone, if you will, but I do believe that. I don't have much belief left that this is true in cycling, but I still have some hope left it can be true. Without meritocracy, sports aren't really worth watching, nor would society have much going for it.

[e-RICHIE]

"its not about these guys being bad.. they are showing us who we are."

If that were true, "we" would not be so disgusted.

I for one don't believe sports fans in the aggregate are a bunch of hypocrites who would do whatever it take to get what they want, rules/laws be damned. Call us naive for believing that any sports winner got there through effort and talent alone, if you will, but I do believe that. I don't have much belief left that this is true in cycling, but I still have some hope left it can be true. Without meritocracy, sports aren't really worth watching, nor would society have much going for it.
aren't sports just entertainment atmo?
i see it all as no different than corporate greed, speeding on
the interstate, cheating on taxes, and - of course, etcetera!
atmo, jimmy caan's rollerball mirrors sports, business, and life.




ps
arrange disorder
:( :( :(
:( :( :(
:eek: :( :(

[Grant McLean]

aren't sports just entertainment atmo?
i see it all as no different than corporate greed, speeding on
the interstate, cheating on taxes, and - of course, etcetera!
atmo, jimmy caan's rollerball mirrors sports, business, and life.


and that's not even mentioning the train wreck that was Britney on the mtv awards...

we love to build them up, and tear 'em down. :(


g

[e-RICHIE]

and that's not even mentioning the train wreck that was Britney on the mtv awards...

we love to build them up, and tear 'em down. :(


g
overheard in nearby jane austen atmo -
“well, well, my dear, what are we but
fodder for our neighbors’ amusement?"

[swoop]

"its not about these guys being bad.. they are showing us who we are."

If that were true, "we" would not be so disgusted.
.

this makes no sense to me at all. i'm not disgusted. if i were i'd use that as an entry point to re-evaluate myself a little. i can't think of anything less to do with your person.... the sport didn't change before your eyes.... the world is what it is. the only thing that gets funky is the using sports as a platform for moralizing.

disgust? really? why would it go there?

also.. all those folks on the side of the road at the tour... they weren't so disgusted that they didn't want to stand out next to drunk dutch people all day. that takes a certain amount of passion.. not disgust. did you see the stages in england? the crowds? who's disgusted?

[Fixed]

using sports as a platform for moralizing.
bro i like that part
cheers

[TAW]

What are sports without morality? Every sport has rules, otherwise it wouldn't be a sport. A baseball player cannot hit a single and run to third.

[e-RICHIE]

What are sports without morality? Every sport has rules, otherwise it wouldn't be a sport. A baseball player cannot hit a single and run to third.
that's like saying a cat can't use a ducati in the tdf atmo.

[Fixed]

bro it would make a good motorcycle race imho
cheers

[oracle]

aren't sports just entertainment atmo?
i see it all as no different than corporate greed, speeding on
the interstate, cheating on taxes, and - of course, etcetera!
atmo, jimmy caan's rollerball mirrors sports, business, and life.




ps
arrange disorder
:( :( :(
:( :( :(
:eek: :( :(


define sports

[e-RICHIE]

define sports
the best i can do is...
an entertainment entity using competition as a device.

[swoop]

to your point... pushing the edge and over the edge is in the genetic fabric of the morality of sport. sports celebrate the individual's capacity to transcend limitations (usually the artificial ones that define the playing field).

the nicest player doesn't win the trophy or the paycheck.

what's repugnant to me is the fan that celebrates one aspect of envelope pushing behavior without allowing himself to see the shadow. its a kind of selective veiwing that really asks the athlete to be nothing more than a receptacle for some infatile wishes for a hero.
the failure in morality is that of the naive fan.. because it just creates the fanatsy athlete... and industries are built around selling people 150 dollar sneakers... on the shoulders of these little distorted visions of heroic boundary transcending behavior... without asking people to really look at just what's involved.

frankly, i think its the athletes that become victims in this. they are discarded and replaced and completely consumed by systems that leave the individual vulnerable and holding the bag when the **** hits the fan....

you wanna cast a judgemnt... listen to the conversations between the sponsors and the management, the management and the ds's, the ds's and the riders and doctors.

i'm tired of the selective veiwing that is fanship.

you wanna be a fan. you gotta look at the whole pie. the beauty of cycling is its out there. the enforcement systems are getting better. the drugs will too. its just like life.

[swoop]

my last point is:

you think its effed up that this is happening in bike racing?
me, i think.... wow, this happens in bike racing.. imagine how the world works that this happens around this tiny little industry.

i think the concept is fractals. bike racin aint nothin honey... except a way in to how things work. maybe formula 1 too... or horse racin', or hey.. you think gymnastics is good for those little girls? the judges are fair, right?
you want you're kid to be a pop star? i can go on..... how many concussions do you like your little college footballers to have? enjoying the game knowing those kids you're watching are gonna fall apart at 50?

the thing i'm passionate about.. is wishing wide world of sports showed all the classics from start to finish.

[Your_Friend!]

my last point is:

you think its effed up that this is happening in bike racing?
me, i think.... wow, this happens in bike racing.. imagine how the world works that this happens around this tiny little industry.

i think the concept is fractals. bike racin aint nothin honey... except a way in to how things work. maybe formula 1 too... or horse racin', or hey.. you think gymnastics is good for those little girls? the judges are fair, right?
you want you're kid to be a pop star? i can go on.....

the thing i'm passionate about.. is wishing wide world of sports showed all the classics from start to finish.



Swoop!


I Am _Confused_!

Who Are You Talking To?!

What Are Fractals??


Love,
Your_Friend!

[swoop]

i'm a talking to myself and all the good people that feel like having an opinionfest.

in the broadest sense.. fractals is self-similarity. that the smallest piece of one thing is similar to that whole thing. the stone looks like the mountain.
ish....

i'm not too bright.. and its just thinking out loud for giggles sake.

[Grant McLean]

i'm not too bright.. and its just thinking out loud for giggles sake.

and i'm standing by for campagnolo tech related questions...


g®@nt

[swoop]

and i'm standing by for campagnolo tech related questions...


g®@nt

grant.. don't you just wanna buy up record front derailluers before they switch over to the new do it all version.
i hate it when sku numbers become a force in the design of a component. you know?

[Grant McLean]

grant.. don't you just wanna buy up record front derailluers before they switch over to the new do it all version.
i hate it when sku numbers become a force in the design of a component. you know?

I've got lots of campy skeletons in my closet already, old and new :)

But really I just want to be insightful like you...

g

[1centaur]

this makes no sense to me at all. i'm not disgusted. if i were i'd use that as an entry point to re-evaluate myself a little.

It makes no sense to you swoop because you are not "we" in the context of this discussion. We are disgusted, you are not. You have a far more cynical view of the world than we the disgusted. "We" think it better that you engage in self-examination of the roots and implications of your cynicism rather than that we self flagellate at our desire for meritocracy.

I do not view sport as spectacle - wrestling is spectacle and a darn bad one at that. Sport is about trying to get the best out of yourself and seeing what happens, and spectators look forward to seeing something happen that makes them go "ooh." We the spectators think in terms of getting the best out of ourselves and admire that trait in others - we want to root for those among us who achieve something special. I see nothing psychologically defective about that. Look at Rollerball closely - are you John Houseman while I'm in the stands rooting for Jonathan to do something brave, daring and unscripted for once? Hollywood was trying to convey a universal truth about our collective yearning for something simultaneously human and great.

I suspected that underlying the cynicism was the thought that "corporate" and "greed" go together in some inevitable way that is universal in all endeavors. I don't believe that for a second. Most people engage in business to make a living and do something they enjoy or are good at or can stand so that they can find happy moments on their bike or with their families and definitely with their dogs. Nowhere in that equation is a universal "whatever it takes" mentality. People may shut their eyes and close their ears when contemplating Lance or Bonds or little gymnasts, but that does not mean they endorse the worst aspects of human behavior - cheating, manipulating, coercing. If they knew for sure that all those folks in those sports were doing something reprehensible, they would not be fans.

The disgust comes from knowing that cycling could be 99% of what it is today as a spectator sport but 100% clean. The disgust comes from being fans of people who did not deserve the praise they got. We see authentic greatness in other sports (tennis, golf, pick your favorites) but we don't get to see it in this sport we love. Is ennui or disgust a healthier reaction to that?

[swoop]

how is my view cynical?
what seems cynical about what i am saying?

there is the world as we wish it to be and the world as it is.

i'm engaged by the what is-ness. i like the light but i think the shadows are beautiful too.

and i know plenty of clean dudes that are pros.

[e-RICHIE]

The disgust comes from knowing that cycling could be 99% of what it is today as a spectator sport but 100% clean. The disgust comes from being fans of people who did not deserve the praise they got. We see authentic greatness in other sports (tennis, golf, pick your favorites) but we don't get to see it in this sport we love. Is ennui or disgust a healthier reaction to that?

don't take this the wrong way but it's you, not me.*
(insert smiley face and banannanans here ___.)
cycling is no different than it ever was. can you
accept the fact that you're wearing tinted shades?
cycling like what they do has no relationship to the
aids rides and laps around central park that most
people do on their $8G litespeeds. it's a bloodsport
and a business intertwined atmo.











* a 'la costanza

[jerk]

ahmm what are we talking about again?

frucked if i know. i got dropped by a clean pro on a 100km easy ride on thursday...so fruck all y'all.

jerk

[swoop]

speaking of drugs in cycling.. ***?

[e-RICHIE]

speaking of drugs in cycling.. ***?
we should start a pool atmo...

[jerk]

we should start a pool atmo...


question:
how is this guy finishing in the first group at the vuelta?

jerk

[swoop]

3 dimensional plaid blobs is the new black.

[jerk]

sorry i mean this guy.

jerk

[Elefantino]

I'm shocked.

http://www.movieactors.com/photos/casablanca145.jpeg

[jeffg]

but there is one aspect of Swoop, jerk et. al's argument I cannot get past -- in my current job people are doing deals in the hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.

I know lots of the players are not nice -- some cheat, some are just general scumbags and some are really wonderful human beings. The incentive to bend the rules, cheat, hide the ball, you name it is great. But I go to work and I can look myself, my colleagues and my family in the eye because I do not do so.

That is not to say I am doing the world any real good. It's not like I work for a worthy non-profit, at least not yet.

Yet dopers seem to me like cutthroat private equity types, investment bankers one step from jail or lawyers one step from disbarment. I am in no way shocked by them, but I don't respect them, either. There are just cheaters -- human, all too human if you will. The only difference is that they have some talent I find wonderful that even their cheating cannot diminish.

What's disappointing about Ullrich is that he just cannot admit the truth -- he is a coward. He is still an amazing cyclist, but a disappointment as a man, imho.

[1centaur]

how is my view cynical?
what seems cynical about what i am saying?
there is the world as we wish it to be and the world as it is.

i'm engaged by the what is-ness. i like the light but i think the shadows are beautiful too.

and i know plenty of clean dudes that are pros.

From dictionary.com: Synonyms 1, 3. Cynical, pessimistic,...imply holding a low opinion of humanity.

I am disgusted by what is, because it need not be. There's much love on this board for Lemond for that very reason. There's much hate of "Halliburton" for that very reason. If someone said "of course those businessmen are crooks and ripping off my tax dollars so they can lounge in a sauna in Dubai with prostitutes, that's the way of the world and you just have to love the cleverness of their cost accounting" I would call that person a cynic. "What is" includes baser instincts and higher instincts, and I am disgusted when baser instincts win so regularly. I don't see beauty there because beauty by definition is at one end of a natural continuum while doping is like airbrushing the picture of a housewife to make her look like a supermodel - you look and say "what's the point?" This isn't about great athletes with flaws (an unpleasant Lance with exceptional charitable efforts, if you will) creating shadow and light in interesting ways, this is about athletes of unknown quality rigging the system to make the competition meaningless. To shrug and say "that's life, that's who we are" is the definition of cynicism cited above. Per e-richie's point, my glasses are not tinted about what is, but they may be tinted about what could be. If the dollars are there the temptation to stay ahead of the tests will be there and we could face this situation indefinitely. Ironically, the dollars are there BECAUSE enough people were expecting meritocracy. That's no longer true. We'll see to what that leads.

[swoop]

become a bit of a historian of the sport. read about the first tours de france...
get good info on how the sport came to be, who the riders were, how the races were won, discern if it was about hard work and fairness...
its liberating and will help change how you see things. the accomplishments are no less great. it makes the accomplishments of guys like hampsten even more impressive (he was famously clean).

i'd love fair play in sport. i aspire towards it. i've competed agaisnt doped athletes and i'm clean. i think the clean riders have every right to have issues with the dirty riders... they suffer the greatest impact. if there is ever enough money in testing and the real desire for clean sport from the sponsors.. the sport will be cleaner (and it looks possible now). but like most things there is a public face and a private face to it. i see dirty riders as victims too.

you made a change in your veiw already.. you started looking at the sport rather than the rider... my point is that any sport wil function the same we as the culture it exists within... that one can't function on a higher level than the other because they are made of the same material.

that isn't cynicism.. its hopeful. the riders are the smallest cog in this... they have a lot of power.. but face the most pressure and need to be protected. we need to make it impossible for them to dope.

how old of a kid was ullrich when he was first exposed to dope in cycling?

just for giggles read from lance to landis. frankie andreau thinks its a pretty accurate representation of the sport he participated in. i think that's a credible validation of a book that attempts to look at he sport as it is.

become an informed fan. it makes it better. i think the sport celebrates life as it is... and therefore at times borders on poetry.

atmo.

[BigDaddySmooth]

question:
how is this guy finishing in the first group at the vuelta?

jerk

Doesn't the jacket go over the jersey?

SEVEN must be proud :rolleyes:

[Grant McLean]

From dictionary.com: Synonyms 1, 3. Cynical, pessimistic,...imply holding a low opinion of humanity.

To shrug and say "that's life, that's who we are" is the definition of cynicism cited above.

I'm not sure I saw swoop "shrug".

re·al·ist [ree-uh-list] Pronunciation Key -
–noun
1. a person who tends to view or represent things as they really are


g

[dutri42590]

speaking of drugs in cycling.. ***?
what is wrong with argile and how is this related to drugs

[swoop]

what is wrong with argile and how is this related to drugs

are you looking at that kit? drugs have to be involved... logo placement alone suggests years of vigorous bong use.

[davids]

Doesn't the jacket go over the jersey?

SEVEN must be proud :rolleyes:
That's the jersey over the jacket over the jersey. I think.

[vaxn8r]

How many games/superbowls did the Belichick and the Pats really win?

NBA refs are run by Vegas.

Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, Palmeiro, Giambi, Canseco.......

Michael Waltrip: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/15/sportsline/main2480661.shtml

6-10% of high school football players use PEDS.


Frankly I'd be shocked if drugs were not found in the Peloton.

Yeah, I'm cycnical about any sport where $$$ is involved.

[Fixed]

bro imho
the fix is in
cheers

[bostondrunk]

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the guys at the euro-pro level are superstars in there own right even without the dope. They had to be amazing athletes to begin with to even get to the point where doping would help them. Others will disagree, but I believe that when you are looking at the tour riders, you are looking at the best cyclists in the world, clean or not. If doping didn't exist, I believe that, for the most part, you'd still be seeing the same 200 top pro riders.

[JMerring]

Re: "Yeah, I'm cycnical about any sport where $$$ is involved."

What about golf? Lots of $$$. Maybe a few dopers, but I'd imagine very few (notwithstanding what Gary Player has said). And even then, what good would drugs do in golf? Sure it'd make you longer, but at the end of the day, golf is much more a game of skill and mental fortitude than it is brute strength (or physical endurance).

[swoop]

Re: "Yeah, I'm cycnical about any sport where $$$ is involved."

What about golf? Lots of $$$. Maybe a few dopers, but I'd imagine very few (notwithstanding what Gary Player has said). And even then, what good would drugs do in golf? Sure it'd make you longer, but at the end of the day, golf is much more a game of skill and mental fortitude than it is brute strength (or physical endurance).


tiger woods would tell you different. there have been calls for testing in golf. many ways to get a strong back and powerful swing.
one might use any number of products in a multiday event out there in the sun. everything from the fabled testosterone to steroids and hormones.
the ball doesn't drive itself. 1 stroke can be worth big bucks as can a lapse in concentration because of fatigue.

don't be naive. it was at play in the first olympiads.... do you think sports would work with out referees? its the fundamental nature of sports to push boundaries and this has always required enforcement.

i wish i had a dime for every guy i see hitting an asthma inhaler pre 60 minute crit out here.... they must of read about it in velonews.

pga needs to have a list of banned substances and then protocal for testing and enforcement. its just like a sideline in football.. you have to define the edges of the playing field and then enforce them.

[BURCH]

http://www.vote756.com/marcecko/

[92degrees]

The essence of sport is self-imposed limitation. ATMO.

[JMerring]

tiger woods would tell you different. there have been calls for testing in golf. many ways to get a strong back and powerful swing.
one might use any number of products in a multiday event out there in the sun. everything from the fabled testosterone to steroids and hormones.
the ball doesn't drive itself. 1 strokes can be worth big bucks as can a lapse in concentration because of fatigue.

don't be naive. it was at play in the first olympiads.... do you think sports would work with out referees? its the fundamental nature of sports to push boundaries and this has always required enforcement.

i wish i had a dime for every guy i see hitting an asthma inhaler pre 60 minute crit out here.... they must of read about it in velonews.

Um...yeah.

Tiger may be in favor of testing because it is the politically correct thing to do. Or he may genuinenly believe there is a need for it. Personally, I'd be in favor of random testing of any golfer at any time - to set an example for other sports and to further solidify golf's reputation as an honorable game. But I don't think it'd mean anything because at the end of the day, the only performance ehanching drugs that would really help a golfer are those that would enable them to put the ball closer to the hole when not on the green, and to actually get it in the hole with the fewest amount of putts when on the green. That is a function of 99.9% skill. Ask any golfer worth his salt - amateur or pro - and they'll tell you the way to save strokes is to improve putting, chipping and scrambling, in that order. Despite what anyone will tell you (Tiger included, at least in his public comments), no amount of strength or endurance oriented PED's will materially help your golf game. What about "calming agents," you may be wondering? Beta blockers were all the rage in the 80s and 90s, ostensibly because of their ability to calm your nerves when putting. You don't hear talk of them in the golf context anymore - BECAUSE THEY DON'T WORK. Marijuana? You try playing golf stoned and let me know how well you do. Consistent consumption of cannabinoids on the course will see a consistent increase in your handicap (I assure you).

Take a look at the longest drivers on the 2007 tour: http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/2007/101.html. Setting aside John Daly (who won majors because of his skill, not his length, who hasn't contended for a long time and who is on almost nobody's list of "greatest ever") and Angel Cabrera (who is a good golfer but most likely a "one and done" vis-a-vis his US Open), the other 8 of the top 10 spots are occupied by guys who have never won and most likely will never win. Power? Gets them on the list of longest drivers but that's it. (To those who argue the further you hit it, the shorter the irons you'd be able to hit into greens, I'd respond: True, but the pros have plenty of skill to hit a 4 iron every bit as well as their 6 iron, and if the powers that be were genuinely concerned about what the pros are hitting into the greens, all they'd need to do is put restrictions on the golf ball.)

In light of Gary Player's comments, I considered which of today's golfers look like they may be on something. Guy that comes to mind is Sergio. He has bulked up an awful lot in the past year or so. But he hasn't won a tournament since 2005. And he threw up all over the British Open. If he's on anything, my advice would be to get off it because he played better golf before.

There is no question that PEDs are a major problem in many (maybe even most) professional sports. Golf isn't one of them. That doesn't mean the USGA and R&A shouldn't test - they should, if only (as already mentioned) to serve as a model and to uphold the integrity of the game.

[benb]

The "Let them dope" attitude is sad.

But it's what I'd expect from people in the industry.

You're all riding on Jan and Lance and Basso's coat tails, eating the scraps.

The more they piss us off the more likely we are to go try golf, running, triathlon, whatever..

Other sports may have their problems but not the consistent criminal behavior, lying to the bitter end, and generally shameful behavior.

I'll root for Rodney Harrison and his quick confession over and over again before I'll root for the stupid cyclists who continue to deny and claim science doesn't work even though he failed out of high school cause he was too busy shooting EPO behind the gym.

The last few years have pretty much killed my desire to participate in amateur racing.. cause if you tear back the layers of BS amateur racing survives on an inkling of Walter Mitty fantasy.. the fantasy that you too could suddenly become a pro. I can't think of many other sports where the amateur can so easily rub shoulders with the pros. But those pros have turned out to be such ridiculous cheats that I sometimes have trouble even believing amateur races. Their can be some level of honor in a cheater.. but cyclings cheats have gotten to the point where they should be committing hari kari, cause their honor disappeared a long time ago.

As for history? Yah TdF guys have always been cheats.. but the cheating has steadily gotten more systematic, more expensive, and more dangerous. It's not the same, it's either going to keep getting worse or it's going to get better.

If the industry desires status quo then they are just going to continue to see sponsors waver and keep it up long enough and bicycle sales will be affected.

[Fixed]

bro that is hard imho
cheers

[J.Greene]

There is no question that PEDs are a major problem in many (maybe even most) professional sports. Golf isn't one of them. That doesn't mean the USGA and R&A shouldn't test - they should, if only (as already mentioned) to serve as a model and to uphold the integrity of the game.

I recently read that golf has one of the highest positve test rates in all sports. That is alarming when you consider the PGA does not test.

JG

[JMerring]

Source? (would like to read article). Positive tests for what? Exposure to too much grass? Pollen? Ragweed?

[gdw]

Alcohol and nicotine.

[e-RICHIE]

The "Let them dope" attitude is sad.

But it's what I'd expect from people in the industry.
which people in what industry have this attitude atmo?

[J.Greene]

Source? (would like to read article). Positive tests for what? Exposure to too much grass? Pollen? Ragweed?

I'm too busy to look it up, I'm sure you can google. It was an article comparing positive test rates in all of the sports that the IOC or wada enforces ( i forget which). Golf, while having a low number of overall tests had one of the highest percentages of positive tests.

Your seriously naive if you think any athlete in pro sports would not have the capacity to use something they "thought" was an advantage. It's no different in any sport.

JG

[MilanoTom]

grant.. don't you just wanna buy up record front derailluers before they switch over to the new do it all version.
i hate it when sku numbers become a force in the design of a component. you know?

Yeah, but what'll be worth having more, the obsolete QS CT front derailleur or the plain 'ol pre-QS obsolete CT front derailleur. Just watch - they'll move the chainring pins next year, so both of them will be even more worthless.

Tom

[gdw]

I must be naive but how can golf have the highest positve test rates when the PGA doesn't even have a testing policy in effect yet?

[J.Greene]

I must be naive but how can golf have the highest positve test rates when the PGA doesn't even have a testing policy in effect yet?

There were/are other golf leagues. That is the part that has to make one wonder.

JG

[JMerring]

Still, naive or not, I'm a golfer (and a good one). I've played for a long long time. I KNOW that power alone doesn't make you a good golfer. There is a skill involved - particularly where it counts (ie, putting and short game) - that performance enhancing drugs (or at least the ones that are currently available) absolutely unequivocally cannot do anything to materially assist.

[quaintjh]

Still, naive or not, I'm a golfer (and a good one). I've played for a long long time. I KNOW that power alone doesn't make you a good golfer. There is a skill involved - particularly where it counts (ie, putting and short game) - that performance enhancing drugs (or at least the ones that are currently available) absolutely unequivocally cannot do anything to materially assist.
And that is different than bicycle racing how???

[Fat Robert]

king kong bundy


what an athlete

[jerk]

king kong bundy


what an athlete

bundy sucked.

special delivery jones was jobbed.

jerk

[Fixed]

bro i know hulk h. he gained about 60 pounds one summer told me it was cool they did mda in the ring in the 70's
cheers

[swoop]

Still, naive or not, I'm a golfer (and a good one). I've played for a long long time. I KNOW that power alone doesn't make you a good golfer. There is a skill involved - particularly where it counts (ie, putting and short game) - that performance enhancing drugs (or at least the ones that are currently available) absolutely unequivocally cannot do anything to materially assist.

do golfers ever hurt their backs of have to perform in multiday events over a long season? just wondering.

i'm not paranoid... i don't see golfers removing blood... frankly i see golf as more a game than a sport.... but...
its certainly a conversation they're having and they don't sound like they talk
about it any different to me than the folks that run baseball sounded a couple of years ago.

i don't know golf.. i knew one aspiring to get on the tour (i think testosterone was involved). i don't know if that's banned for them.

[pdxmech13]

When I golfed we used to wear funny pants and hats
and were always swatting at balls with silly wooden sticks.

I stopped playing as it would be hard to continue to drink as there
are all these crazy people chasing these players around the
course now yelling and screaming as if the were a bunch of belgians
at a cross race.

[Dave B]

Man drugs are rampant where I work.

Coffee I-V's

I even succumb to Diet Mt. Dew


You should see us teachers. It is sick. Thank god we don't ride bikes. You all would be Lance Who!?

[J.Greene]

that performance enhancing drugs (or at least the ones that are currently available) absolutely unequivocally cannot do anything to materially assist.

HGH pal

What that stuff does for eyesight is big for a hitter, pitcher, or even a guy trying to hit a tiny white ball.

JG

[Lifelover]

which people in what industry have this attitude atmo?

I'm in the "ship repair facilities" industry and have that attitude! Maybe he meant me :banana:

[Fixed]

bro + it makes old cats feel young again
cheers

[gdw]

"HGH pal

What that stuff does for eyesight is big for a hitter, pitcher, or even a guy trying to hit a tiny white ball."

Please explain? How exactly would HGH help a golfer?

[Fixed]

"HGH pal

What that stuff does for eyesight is big for a hitter, pitcher, or even a guy trying to hit a tiny white ball."

Please explain? How exactly would HGH help a golfer?
bro how about making a 40 year old feel like 25 would that help a golfer ?
cheers :beer:

[Brendan Quirk]

Yo Swoop - I love golf. But the closest I ever saw to drug use at my handicap was a buddy who thought the back 9 was always at, um, 4:20 if you know what I mean.

In terms of ProTour caliber golf, tho', I know that beta blockers ain't uncommon. I don't believe Nick Price here --

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=2239117

He was winning majors in the period cited in this article I believe...

Funny how many ex-pro bike racers fixate on golf now. Greg LeMond, Hugh Walton, the McCormack bros, to name a few....

[Dave B]

bro how about making a 40 year old feel like 25 would that help a golfer ?
cheers :beer:


What about getting a 40 year old a 25 year old....I bet that would help a golfer! :D

[JMerring]

bro how about making a 40 year old feel like 25 would that help a golfer ?
cheers :beer:

Not if he or she were a crappy golfer at 25.

[swoop]

i should reduce everything i'm tryng to say in this thread to this lil piece...

"i like ullrich"

"i don't know golf at all"

i don't have depth perception so i've never played. so.. i took the golf part too far perhaps. but....

[e-RICHIE]

i should reduce everything i'm tryng to say in this thread to this lil piece...

"i like ullrich"

"i don't know golf at all"

i don't have depth perception so i've never played. so.. i took the golf part too far perhaps. but....
could you get it done at 25 atmo?

[J.Greene]

"HGH pal

What that stuff does for eyesight is big for a hitter, pitcher, or even a guy trying to hit a tiny white ball."

Please explain? How exactly would HGH help a golfer?

your eyes are 50% of the hand/eye coordination thing.

JG

[gdw]

I have a feeling that you're not a golfer.

[J.Greene]

I have a feeling that you're not a golfer.

I was. It is hard not to be in orlando. Played golf in high school until the bicycle got my attention.

JG

[cpg]

I was. It is hard not to be in orlando. Played golf in high school until the bicycle got my attention.

JG

Since we're sharing skeletons in our closets, I too played golf in high school. Team captain. I still play a little. Can't see how ped's would help in golf but I can see how someone hungry to do a little better in whatever sport could be tempted to try. I also played football in college. It was only Div.3 so no big deal but steroids were quite prevelant there. Really weird. Very few Div. 3 players ever go pro so what's the incentive? I think the incentive is just inherent in competition. People want to win and sometimes at any cost. Couple that with immaturity and a system that knowingly looks the other way and you've got yourself a mess. Sound familiar?

Curt

[gdw]

Here's a website worth checking out:
http://www.blindgolf.com/
The section on playing and coaching is quite interesting.

[J.Greene]

you clearly outlined the whole point Curt. Golfers are not immune to the normal pressure of competition.

I belive Gary Player, Tiger Woods, and one of my clients who is a touring pro(barely keeps his card). Guys are using stuff to hopefully make any gain at the margin of performance they can.

JG


Since we're sharing skeletons in our closets, I too played golf in high school. Team captain. I still play a little. Can't see how ped's would help in golf but I can see how someone hungry to do a little better in whatever sport could be tempted to try. I also played football in college. It was only Div.3 so no big deal but steroids were quite prevelant there. Really weird. Very few Div. 3 players ever go pro so what's the incentive? I think the incentive is just inherent in competition. People want to win and sometimes at any cost. Couple that with immaturity and a system that knowingly looks the other way and you've got yourself a mess. Sound familiar?

Curt

[J.Greene]

Here's a website worth checking out:
http://www.blindgolf.com/
The section on playing and coaching is quite interesting.

God bless the blind and anyone who can work around a disability, but are you trying to say that a bling golfer could play pro golf?

JG

[e-RICHIE]

but are you trying to say that a bling golfer could play pro golf?

JG
atmo -

http://www.smackshopping.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/Bling.jpg

[gdw]

No but exceptional eyesight isn't needed to be play well or make it as a pro so there really isn't any advantage in taking HGH.

[J.Greene]

No but exceptional eyesight isn't needed to be play well or make it as a pro so there really isn't any advantage in taking HGH.

forget the playing well...there are plenty of people who have great eyesight and can't play. But I think if you google the research you'll find that eyesight is a factor in golf performance. It's like your trying to deny gravity.
JG

[gt6267a]

In this whole PEDs don’t help golfers assumption, is strength not involved in this game? I would think a little edge, over enough repetition probably averages out to a great deal.

A guy hits off the tee. With the PED strengthened torso, legs, and arms maybe he hits it a little further. On average, let’s say 20 yards. With guys hitting 300 yard drives, a gain of less than 10% seems reasonable.

For this example, let’s say before PED a golfer hits the driver 280, with PED 300.

Playing an imaginary 460 yard hole, the golfer w/o PEDS has 180 to the hole and w / peds 160.

The guy without PEDS uses a 5-iron from 180 where he would use a 7-iron from 160 yards. But wait, the guy taking PEDS hits it a little harder with everything so he gets to use an 8-iron.

Now, if we take a look at the average distance approach shots end up from the hole by club, I highly suspect that 8-irons are closer than 5-irons. For example, for pros, what if they average 15 feet from the hole with 5-irons and 10 feet with 8-irons. Now, average the likelihood of hitting a 10 Vs 15 foot putt. Is there any doubt that the average success rate is higher for the 10 foot putt?

Even if it’s not a 20 yard gain and 5 feet on the puts, let’s say whatever the ability to hit it further is worth .1 stroke / hole. That is 1.8 strokes / day or 7.2 / tournament. This weekend at the tour championship, 10 under earned $231k while 3 under earned $126k. Now, play 20 tournaments …

Even though the advantage per stroke or hole seems small, with enough repetition, a little edge means a lot. No?

[swoop]

the new golf.

*image borrowed from stevep's myspace page.

[JMerring]

In this whole PEDs don’t help golfers assumption, is strength not involved in this game? I would think a little edge, over enough repetition probably averages out to a great deal.

A guy hits off the tee. With the PED strengthened torso, legs, and arms maybe he hits it a little further. On average, let’s say 20 yards. With guys hitting 300 yard drives, a gain of less than 10% seems reasonable.

For this example, let’s say before PED a golfer hits the driver 280, with PED 300.

Playing an imaginary 460 yard hole, the golfer w/o PEDS has 180 to the hole and w / peds 160.

The guy without PEDS uses a 5-iron from 180 where he would use a 7-iron from 160 yards. But wait, the guy taking PEDS hits it a little harder with everything so he gets to use an 8-iron.

Now, if we take a look at the average distance approach shots end up from the hole by club, I highly suspect that 8-irons are closer than 5-irons. For example, for pros, what if they average 15 feet from the hole with 5-irons and 10 feet with 8-irons. Now, average the likelihood of hitting a 10 Vs 15 foot putt. Is there any doubt that the average success rate is higher for the 10 foot putt?

Even if it’s not a 20 yard gain and 5 feet on the puts, let’s say whatever the ability to hit it further is worth .1 stroke / hole. That is 1.8 strokes / day or 7.2 / tournament. This weekend at the tour championship, 10 under earned $231k while 3 under earned $126k. Now, play 20 tournaments …

Even though the advantage per stroke or hole seems small, with enough repetition, a little edge means a lot. No?

Yes. And no. What this argument discounts - to a considerable degree - is the fact that golf is fundamentally a game of skill, not power. The best golfers are those with (a) the most skill and (b) the best head. I can't argue with your logic vis-a-vis distance (nor the fact that humans are given to cheating). But, as a golfer, I find it very very hard to believe that PEDs would make a golfer like Bubba into a golfer like Tiger. Could they turn Rasmussen into a tour winner? No doubt.

[J.Greene]

But, as a golfer, I find it very very hard to believe that PEDs would make a golfer like Bubba into a golfer like Tiger.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread has ever said bubba could be tiger.The top to bottom of the PGA money list is separated by only a few strokes per round. If something could be taken, or practiced, or played with that could give you 1/4 of one stroke it could represent keeping your card, or moving way up the money list. It's that way in all pro sports.

I find it interesting that people will swear this years new club or ball will make them better, but will discount the effects of modern medicine. Is there a colored wristband for this syndrome?

JG

[e-RICHIE]

Is there a colored wristband for this syndrome?

JG
:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:

[swoop]

could you get it done at 25 atmo?

i use my shoulders and hips and i close my eyes when i can't tell.

[gt6267a]

Yes. And no. What this argument discounts - to a considerable degree - is the fact that golf is fundamentally a game of skill, not power. The best golfers are those with (a) the most skill and (b) the best head. I can't argue with your logic vis-a-vis distance (nor the fact that humans are given to cheating). But, as a golfer, I find it very very hard to believe that PEDs would make a golfer like Bubba into a golfer like Tiger. Could they turn Rasmussen into a tour winner? No doubt.

To continue with JG and this is not Bubba morphes into Tiger … what if John Daly got fit and wasn’t tired / dehydrated on day 2 or 3 let alone 4?

What about giving the third ranked putter but 181st ranked driver (average 276 yards) Jose Maria Olazabal 20-30 more yards off the tee? Given an ex-Masters champ an extra 10-15% on everything he does and see if how that impacts the leader board …

How about it Sergio Garcia getting an extra bump. That's not Bubba, that's a pretty damn good golfer ...

[William]

Ok, I'm confused. What does all this have to do with OJ???? :confused:










William ;) :rolleyes:

[JohnS]

Ok, I'm confused. What does all this have to do with OJ???? :confused:










William ;) :rolleyes:Wrong thread, big guy. This is the JU one, not the OJ one.

[JMerring]

To continue with JG and this is not Bubba morphes into Tiger … what if John Daly got fit and wasn’t tired / dehydrated on day 2 or 3 let alone 4?

What about giving the third ranked putter but 181st ranked driver (average 276 yards) Jose Maria Olazabal 20-30 more yards off the tee? Given an ex-Masters champ an extra 10-15% on everything he does and see if how that impacts the leader board …

How about it Sergio Garcia getting an extra bump. That's not Bubba, that's a pretty damn good golfer ...

John Daly's woes have maybe 1% to do with conditioning; the other 99% is his mental state.

Jose Maria won two Masters, one of which was a head-to-head victory over the much longer Greg Norman who, coincidentally and despite his power, only won 2 majors.

Recent (post-Hootie Tiger-proofing) Masters champions include Mike Weir and Zach Johnson, none of whom are even remotely long (off the tee, that is).

Sergio may not have what it takes (ie, in his head) to ever win a major, no matter how long he is off the tee.

Fellas, you all are giving length (which, coincidentally, can be a function of timing and not power) way more emphasis than is due in a game of skill.

[e-RICHIE]

Fellas, you all are giving length <cut> way more emphasis than is due in a game of skill.
atmo - (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK-U-Ic4qDo)

[J.Greene]

Fellas, you all are giving length (which, coincidentally, can be a function of timing and not power) way more emphasis than is due in a game of skill.

where did I use length?

All sports are a combination of Skills and Power. I think sport expertise is the term researchers use to define a specific skillset. Almost everything and athlete knows about the conditions that surrounds him or her comes through the eyes. How the eyes and brain process that information is critical to the coordination of the task. This information is processed much better by a top athlete than one of us. There is no comparison. While an Aryton Senna, Michael Schmacher, Jeff Gordon may display those traits easily, they are no less prevalent than with a top golfer. As we all age those skills decrease. In golf as well as cycling, expertise can make up for a decrease in those specifc skills. HGH has been proven to reverse father time. You can also use HGH to make up for some god given defficiencies also.

Out there somewhere there is a published research paper written specifically about golf and eyesight. There IS a positive correlation between golf performance and eyesight. Forum member Lou Deeter's PHD son-in-law works with the Australian Institute of Sport with this stuff. It's amazing what these guys do.

JG

[gdw]

you need to back your statements with facts when dealing with skeptics. Where are the studies and articles you reference? Give us a link.

[Grant McLean]

Out there somewhere there is a published research paper written specifically about golf and eyesight. There IS a positive correlation between golf performance and eyesight. Forum member Lou Deeter's PHD son-in-law works with the Australian Institute of Sport with this stuff. It's amazing what these guys do.

JG

Not to mention Tiger's eye surgery!

http://www.tlcvision.com/why_famouspeople_tiger.fxml

g

[gdw]

Pretty weak Dude. Tiger was a great golfer who wasn't comfortable with contacts. He had surgery and can now see without them. Wow. How's that prove your point? He was a great golfer before and after surgery. Would HGH make him better?

[J.Greene]

you need to back your statements with facts when dealing with skeptics.

why do I need to do that? If your not open minded enough to spend 5 min searching yourself are you likely to change to change your mind if i do?

JG

[dutri42590]

where did I use length?

All sports are a combination of Skills and Power. I think sport expertise is the term researchers use to define a specific skillset.
JG

yes it is all in the fundemental of sport no matter what you are doing or at any level

JPR

[dutri42590]

:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:

yes JG is right there need to be a wrist band. red/sliver/white

JPR

[manet]

.

[Ray]

It's been a few weeks. I'd been missing it.

I don't know nothing from the inside and I've never been good enough at any sport to be tempted to cheat. I've played golf, football, tennis, basketball, and a few others competitively but never got very far past having a good time at any of 'em (except high school football - I was still living the fantasy then and nearly paid with my knees, back, etc). I even raced mountain bikes a few times before I remembered why I rode a bike and got back to that.

But I'm a hell of a spectator and I know what I like to watch. And I'd rather watch Lance or Basso or Contador or Pantani climb the tall mountains than Cadel or Bradley Wiggins. And I'd rather watch Dock Ellis pitch a no-hitter on acid than Adam Eaton pitch his way to the highest ERA in the majors. I dunno about golf - SUCH a head game that maybe they ought to be trying acid there too. You wouldn't win many tournaments, but you'd have the occasional KILLER round.

I think PEDs are endemic in any sport where they make a difference and have been tried enough in all sports so that the competitors KNOW whether they make a difference or not. I guess we have some sort of moral duty to the yoot of the world to try to police it but we have to recognize we're just managing the problem, not eliminating it. Every decent traffic planner or vice cop knows you're not going to eliminate problems - you're just trying to keep them from getting totally out of hand. And definitions of 'totally out of hand' vary by jurisdiction. You just figure you do the best job you can because, as bad as things will continue to be, they'd be a lot worse if you didn't try.

I think that's where the realist has to be with sports. Try to police it to keep it within some limits. Understand that the cheaters in ALL endeavors always stay a few steps ahead of the regulators and that the pressure to cheat is HUGE when there's money/fame/glory involved.

E-Richie said its mostly entertainment and I agree with him. Doped riders tend to be more entertaining to watch 99% of the time. I'll probably keep watching them and won't pretend to be seeing something I'm not.

-Ray

[William]

Welcome to the grand illusion
Come on in and see whats happening
Pay the price, get your tickets for the show

The stage is set, the band starts playing
Suddenly your heart is pounding
Wishing secretly you were a star.

But dont be fooled by the radio
The tv or the magazines

They show you photographs of how your life should be
But theyre just someone elses fantasy

So if you think your life is complete confusion
Because you never win the game
Just remember that its a grand illusion
And deep inside were all the same.
Were all the same...

So if you think your life is complete confusion
Because your neighbors got it made

Just remember that its a grand illusion
And deep inside were all the same.
Were all the same...

America spells competition, join us in our blind ambition
Get yourself a brand new motor car
Someday soon well stop to ponder what on earths this spell were under
We made the grade and still we wonder who the hell we are....