friction

[Fixed]

bro with all the great classic bike showin lately how many of you bros ride these regularly ..i think along with a fixed a friction gear it is a great tool for getting back to the soul of riding ,simple times for a simple act ..i'm riding mine everyday now ..when and if i ever get back in shape i'll break out my merckx it's starting to whisper to me when i walk by .friction and fixed go together like bacon and tomatoes..imho
cheers :beer:

[Kevan]

are you just askin' for a friction joke?

[michael white]

I use friction on three different bikes

one has mavic
one has suntour
one has old campy

all are great.

[Fixed]

those white super campy levers and the n record shifters went on my bike bro thanks

[Jason E]

I ride friction on one bike. I took it apart not about a week ago just so I could really clean it.

I don't do it because of soul, though. I don't believe a downtube friction shifter bike has more soul then a Record 10 bike or even a D/A 10 bike. It's just older and made different. They are all great bikes.

It's cool because it's silent and that's about it.

Soul is a SS, or a flip flop and turning your wheel around to shift gears, or one of these PBP bikes.

Downtube is neat, but not more or less cool or soulful, IMO.

[Fixed]

[QUOTE=Jason
I don't do it because of soul, though. I don't believe a downtube friction shifter bike has more soul then a Record 10 bike or even a D/A 10 bike. It's just older and made different. They are all great bikes.

It's cool because it's silent and that's about it.
or IMO.[/QUOTE]
bro come see me in 30 years with that 10 speed thang .cheers oh yeah you are more in touch with a friction bike like it or not .

here is what someone not as dumb as me said


dbrk
Helianthus annuus

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bristol, New York
Posts: 3,072
I upgraded to 6 and 7 speed freewheels from 9/10 when I began to sell off the Ergo/STI style bikes. (I still have a few brifterbikes and one can't complain about the quality of their operation or longevity. It's just that I don't need nor particularly prefer them and I never miss brifting when I'm friction or index shifting with down tube shifters. If you don't race, I see no advantage other than preference.)

If I have 9spd cassette then I set up the downtubers to index, usually Dura Ace. Despite positive reports of friction with 9 or even 10 (narrow, narrow...), I am not fond of it. I get the occasional ghost shift and hitting the mark is not supposed to be this challenging. (I would regard myself an experienced dt shifter kinda'guy.)

But here's the other point: I find that with a 14-28 6pd fw, say, one of the new and _excellent_ IRD, I never find myself without the gears I need. It's quite hilly where we live and even steep. I'm not too worried about the flats or descents for gears. So, what's to miss? Redundant gears? Too many options with 9/10 that I don't miss, don't care, or are genuinely redundant. In short, 6 friction with Simplex Retrofrictions, Rivendell Silvers, or Campagnolo retrofrictions is really sweet, simple, elegant, and handsome. These are the best shifters easily available, imhoatmoclko. Seven works just as well and eight has the same spacing so it lets you use modern cassettes on modern hubs (mostly). These new IRD freewheels have relieved us from cheap freewheels. PhilWood freewheel hubs are better made than almost anything else and they are a bargain.

I'm not exactly a cheapskate. I think I could afford any modern or current bike that most of us here would lust. But the prices for modern frames and, worse, for STI/Ergo levers just make me...actually, I want to say "laugh" but that sounds too disdainful of others' choices and I don't mean that. I can't imagine spending that kind of money for _that_ [insert fancydancy overpriced modernity all just imo] when you could have _this_ [insert other frames/set ups]. But dinosaurs belong in museums, not roaming the earth in groups, so be assured I won't be in your way. It's perfectly quiet up here in the hills of Bristol. Actually, it's perfectly freezing and snowing, but that's okay too. I'd like to think that my happily functional bikes that I prefer scare away folks who don't like difference.

dbrk

p.s. I will be posting for sale two sets of Dura Ace STI ten speed shifters in perfect condition if I am ever home long enough to dig them out of the boxes. Perfect condition. Write me for dibbs on them, if you like...I've already gone back to the farm of down tubers...BLESS Shimano, btw, for keeping downtube shifters alive...and FIE on Campagnolo for turning away from them...
__________________
Voici mon secret. Il est très simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux. : For a few bikes, look here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dbrk/sets/

[Jason E]

I'm not argueing with you, just saying....

I rode friction when I got my irst rode bike in 85. I've had an incarnation of it most of the time since then.

What DBRK says is nice, but not for me.

That's all.

In 30 years, if they have 15 in the back, I'll happily have that as well.

What's the aversion to increased technology?

It's not for you is one thing, but that really is as far as it can go.

[Fixed]

bro for me it's history and tradition and the fact you can't buy somethings
i wouldn't race on friction but i ride it everyday,simple and depenable and it works for a dumb bike mess. the whole point is not which is better but the feel of friction and fixed sometimes a cat can do more with less ,that's all
cheers :beer:

[Jason E]

Cool.http://fotoalbum.freenet.de/mediapool1/DD/C0/C5/40/49/A2/11/DC/88/68/A1/8F/8B/52/9A/BA/oma/10/E5F5FDB0573111DC8C7C9B095B17ED2C.jpg

[Steve Hampsten]

pity about the wheels on that bike

fixed, i think you've talked me into friction/dt (tm) for my new d2r2 rambler. i'll let you know how it turns out...i prolly wouldn't choose this if i only had one bike but when there is a choice to be made it's nice to have options

[bluehorseshoe]

I ride a friction dt shifter bike almost every day, to commute to work, go to the store, and haul my kids in the trailer. I really like it on a number of levels:

Set-up is easy
Operation is stone reliable
gearing changes (or component replacement) is a non-issue
It just looks better, to me, with skinny lugged 531 tubes and non-aero brake cable routing.

Getting a shift done cleanly is really satisfying, too, but the bike doesn't really complain if I miss it or shift under load, it will still take. What's not to love about simple, pretty and reliable?

(I will admit, however, that Silver DT shifters and 9 speed shimano omponents work better, for me, than old Campy super record. Easier set up, lighter and smoother shifts. Maybe its my technique, but the newer DT stuff makes me look smoother.)

Some bikes just cry out for this kinda set up, I think. Enjoy.

[PBWrench]

Fixed -- I have two older bikes with Campy friction shifters: A Pinarello (that I just posted in the Gallery) and a '77 Raleigh Professional. Truth is, I don't ride either as much as they deserve, but enjoy them a ton when I do. I usually ride them when I'm riding solo. On fast group rides I've convinced myself that I'm faster on a lighter ergolever machine. Truth or perception? Doesn't matter, because I'm blessed to have several cool bikes and can alternate as the mood dictates.

[Fixed]

pity about the wheels on that bike

fixed, i think you've talked me into friction/dt (tm) for my new d2r2 rambler. i'll let you know how it turns out...i prolly wouldn't choose this if i only had one bike but when there is a choice to be made it's nice to have options
bro i got a feelin this stuff is goin to be hip in the next few years, when i started riding fixed everyone thought i was odd ..now it's mainstream . you cats ( you+ dbrk ) are ahead of the game bro .imho
cheers

[rwsaunders]

Our unofficial group leader and riding buddy of 15 years, tools around with us every Sunday for our 50-miler, on an old 63cm aluminum Trek with a cro mo fork. He runs friction shifters with a big ring crank, touring cassette, handlebar mirror, luggage rack, mismatched tires, helmet and bottle cages.

He claims that automatic transmissions on cars and STI shifters are passing fads. He's also a tightwad and won't spring for cycling gloves. We write it off to the two tours in Southeast Asia, courtesy of Uncle Sam.

We can take him on the hills most of the time (he's 57 yo), but on the flats, he kicks arse, all the while reaching down for those little, quiet DA levers.

[michael white]

another thing is all that adjusting, trying to get the cable tension just right on the sti?--with friction you never do that.

and I like the freedom to put almost any old wheel in there and go.

I tend to get a "modern" bike for harder rides--actually I like a range of bike styles, I don't really have much of a pattern--but there still are a few happy old farts who keep up just fine without updating, ever.

[Ahneida Ride]

If you ride a 64 or 65, reaching down to those shifters can be a long
reach ...


Otherwise I would probably ride with DT shifters. ;)

[Dekonick]

Learned with friction. I love Campy Ergo. They both work.

[93legendti]

Ride what you like. Parts don't have soul. 7 bikes with STI/Ergo or 50 bikes with friction-- 6 of one 1/2 dozen of another. It is all good.

[J.Greene]

Friction represents a time when people could ride a proper paceline. Click shifting and brifters have brought a bunch of new people to the sport and their skillz aren't always so great.

JG

[dirtdigger88]

my main bike is friction - NOT JUST DT SHIFTING- :p

I think I can shift just as fast as anyone- the only hard one is while standing but thats what your knees are for

I just like the ease of set up - the flexibility of gear and hub selection - ease of use

oh and the look I get from people ;) Priceless

Jason

[Fixed]

my main bike is friction - NOT JUST DT SHIFTING- :p

I think I can shift just as fast as anyone- the only hard one is while standing but thats what your knees are for

I just like the ease of set up - the flexibility of gear and hub selection - ease of use

oh and the look I get from people ;) Priceless

Jason
bro and your bike is one of the coolest around imho
cheers

[Erik.Lazdins]

My road bikes as a kid were friction - I've got one friction bike and one ergo bike.

I like friction and I like ergo even though I don't need 10 on the rear!

[Big Dan]

I installed 9 spd Dt's recently on my Merckx Corsa and the bike just rocks....
Next candidate is my '92 Serotta Colorado. Not friction , but close.

:D

[Chris]

I started riding in 85 on a Peugeot with Campy Victory components. Got interested after watching Greg LeMond in tears on CBS. Thought the sport was beautiful and epic.

Every once in a while, throughout the years, I get to thinking about those days and the freedom and pure joy I had on the bike. I always make the mistake of connecting the technology of that time to my enjoyment of the bike. THE GOOD OL' DAYS!!!

Throughout the years, I've gone back to Simplex retro action shifters, longed for a steel bike (over and over, and even rode them long after the rest of the racers had moved on for the most part), and one time (for one race in the 90s) I even went back to toe clips and straps. Every time, I take a hit on the components that I bought, and if I sold off my modern stuff, I have to go out and buy new modern stuff. You would think I would learn. I guess I am finally coming around.

In a lot of ways you just can't go home. Those experiences had so much more to do with the fact that cycling was new to me (and at the age of 15 so was the world) and I was mesmerized by the sport and lifestyle. The reality is that it had little to do with the componentry that I was riding. Cycling is cycling. It is my biggest joy in life, and whether I had found it in 1985 or 2005, is irrelevant. I would still be hooked and a cyclist for life.

People who are just getting into the sport are not any worse off just because they have never had the experience of missing a shift on a climb or getting really frustrated by the fact that the bolt is too loose on their shift lever and they keep down shifting unintentionally any more than we were because we didn't have to stop and turn the rear wheel around to shift gears... IMHO

[Fixed]

I installed 9 spd Dt's recently on my Merckx Corsa and the bike just rocks....
Next candidate is my '92 Serotta Colorado. Not friction , but close.

:D
bro your bike rocks..imho
cheers

[SimonC]

Chris - thank you for that post. I'm not sure if I totally agree with you, but you've nailed demons I've been chasing for a number of years - an very eloquently at that.

I've got a pristine top-of-the-line mountain bike from the era I originally got into the sport, purchased fairly recently, but the reality is I'm going to chop it in for a modern full-sus bike because it makes for a better riding experience. Rigid mountain bikes, friction shifters - whatever it is we're talking about, retro is more distinctive and has its own attractions, but that doesn't mean it's better, or that you're a better rider because you choose it.

Put it this way. Will 10spd brifters, clinchers and a carbon frame stop someone from learning how to ride well? No, ignorance or sloth will do that.

[Big Dan]

So are you guys saying that the new 10 spd stuff doesn't break or miss shifts?

:confused:

[Fixed]

bro we aren't talkin better just different ..me I mt.bike on a fixed gear I know that i'm not going to beat a cat on modern race rig . but I may win the fun factor . this is more about using the bike some cats have hanging on the wall that never see pavement and the riding experence they could have .imho
bro do you ever feel like your being spoon feed what you need from some fat cat who doesn't even ride ..? that is what i don't like

[Chris]

"thank you for that post. I'm not sure if I totally agree with you"

Nobody should TOTALLY agree with me :)



"So are you guys saying that the new 10 spd stuff doesn't break or miss shifts?"

Not at all, just saying that these things move forward because of innovation and the benefits of efficiency in function. I don't want to get in a huge debate over what is better. Certainly, there are things that I think were better off as they were. My point is that much of our longing for the older stuff probably has more to do with when we started riding and the way things were. I would bet that you would be hard pressed to find someone who started riding with indexed shifting and prefers friction.

[Fixed]

bike mess if not fixed , friction
cheers

[sg8357]

[QUOTE=ChrisI would bet that you would be hard pressed to find someone who started riding with indexed shifting and prefers friction.[/QUOTE]

Rivendell has built a business on people who prefer friction.
They reintroduced power ratchet friction shifters.
bar end and down tube mounts available.

Scott G.

[dirtdigger88]

I would bet that you would be hard pressed to find someone who started riding with indexed shifting and prefers friction.

Im here-

how much do I win-


Jason

[Chris]

Rivendell has built a business on people who prefer friction.
They reintroduced power ratchet friction shifters.
bar end and down tube mounts available.

Scott G.


Again, I am not arguing the preference that some have for friction. I don't think that people need to drink the same Kool Aid I am drinking. I am just saying that much of this "preference" is related to nostalgia or just not wanting to move along with the flow of technology and all of what that entails. For some people, the simpler the better. For others having something that never really goes out of adjustment may be a benefit. For others it is even more of a man/machine being one thing. My point though that you are addressing, I think and which I still stand by, is that I believe that the vast majority of people who started riding during the indexing era would not choose friction shifting over indexed.

[Chris]

Im here-

how much do I win-


Jason

I'll pay for your next year's membership to the Serotta Forum. (I knew there would be at least one... I even thought about saying that. :) )

[Fixed]

Again, I am not arguing the preference that some have for friction. I don't think that people need to drink the same Kool Aid I am drinking. I am just saying that much of this "preference" is related to nostalgia or just not wanting to move along with the flow of technology and all of what that entails. For some people, the simpler the better. For others having something that never really goes out of adjustment may be a benefit. For others it is even more of a man/machine being one thing. My point though that you are addressing, I think and which I still stand by, is that I believe that the vast majority of people who started riding during the indexing era would not choose friction shifting over indexed.
i argee with that bro just like most cats don't ride a fixed gear .
cheers :beer:
I have a modern bike I race it's just not my best bike ..

[72gmc]

Lots of good points in this thread, on both sides. I'm personally considering a switch to friction shifting for my best bike. It's not a Sunday baby or wall art--I ride it all the time, even for my commute. I have had no trouble, none at all, with the Campy ergos I've been using for years in all kinds of weather. But I find that my true awful weather bike, a single speed/fixed, puts me in a different head space. The same head space I lived in when I used to ride friction dt shifters on my main bike: "don't shift it, just ride it."

[Fixed]

nice
don't shift it, just ride it."
that made me smile bro thanks
cheers :beer:

[Jason E]

I've been following. I like that last sentiment as well. I think we hashed out on the first page that it's just opinion and perspective. It is cool that so many ride Fixed/SS or friction.

My DT shifting bikes were always friction because of something my coach said in the late 80's, just before STI-to-the-masses...

If you leave it in friction, and you take care of your bike, they can't hear you shift and you can get a jump.

Remember the loud indexing on the old stuff... I think that is what he was talking about. Either way I've always had them on "silent-mode" when I had them.

My fondest memories were riding by my friends and reaching over and shifting their gears on an uphill, then taking off. Riding as fun-time is very important.

[Fixed]

jason you learned from and with the best.. not many of us have had the training you had as a jr. imho
cheers

[michael white]

people seem to think friction is hard or something . . . jeez, you just move the lever a little, the chain goes thump, or you move it a lot, whatever. it's intuitive, and intuitive is always fun! Probably actually funner.

[Ray]

...whether you like to think about the process of riding while you're riding or whether you just wanna ride. I've ridden plenty of miles with everything from friction downtubers to friction barcons to indexed downtubers and barcons and STI and Ergo and plenty of fixie riding. There are charms to all of them and when I had a 'lot' of bikes (I use the term in a highly relative sense around here) I enjoyed having at least one of each. But now I'm in 'just friggin RIDE' mode and I'd rather have fewer bikes and parts to deal with and think about. So, what to choose? And when it came down to it, I didn't haul out the friction bikes more than once in a great while.

So now I'm down to two geared road bikes, both indexed, one with STI and one with barcons. I could use the barcons in friction mode, but I don't except in case of emergency, which is pretty damn close to never. So, I've sort of abandoned friction. How come?

I just want the bike to get out of the way when I'm riding. The two frames I seem to have settled on are the most intuitive, 'what bike?' frames I've ever ridden. They're transparent and wonderfully so. I just ride - I don't have to think about how the bike is behaving or how it's gonna handle - it just behaves. Like an extension of me - hard-wired into the brain. I like my gears to be similarly un-involved.

I got to the point of shifting gears somewhat intuitively with any of the setups I've used, but indexed shifters that don't require me to reach down to the downtube seem ultimately less distracting than indexed or friction that requires me to let go of the bars and reach down. It isn't a big deal. I'd happily ride any of it and have. But when it came down to what did I pick most of the time when I had the choice, indexed barcons and STI/Ergo always won hands down.

I realize not everyone does or should feel this way. Grant Peterson has done pretty well pushing the idea of the 'manual bike', one that involves you in more of the processes of riding. From reaching down to tighten a toe strap (well, I guess those days are past even with Grant - he doesn't even like clips anymore) to shifting manually from the downtube, to bikes that handle in a particular was that's pretty appealing but always reminded me that there was a pretty particular kind of bike under me - he pushed getting into the details and enjoying the process as much as the result. I've enjoyed that, but ultimately, I want as much stuff out of the way as possible so I can just ride and enjoy the riding and not the 'how to' of riding. That's what makes it 'funner' to me.

I realize this leads to heresy. Would I like a bike with an automatic transmission? I don't think so, but I'm not sure I can square that with getting the equipment out of the way. Maybe a little motor to make the bike get even more 'out of the way' on the climbs? Naaaah, I'm not there. But I'm at the point where friction shifting, which others find to be "funner" and more imbibed with soul, isn't either to me.

Except for fixies, which are perhaps the ultimate marriage of the manual bike and one that just gets out of the way - nothing to choose or think about once you start riding except keeping the pedals going around with whatever level of effort it takes. But no fancy high-tech shee-it either.

-Ray

[PBWrench]

Maybe I think too much for my own good . . .

[Your_Friend!]

Friends!


A Very Wise Little Bird

Once Told Me:

Friction Shifting Teaches One

_How_ To Shift!


Love,
Your_Friend!

[rwsaunders]

Yes Master Your_Friend.