OT Espesso machine

[Birddog]

A local Starbucks is blowing out their Barista model for $99 (reg $449) is this machine worth it? My $39 krups is getting tired and falling apart.
TIA
Birddog

[Orin]

A local Starbucks is blowing out their Barista model for $99 (reg $449) is this machine worth it? My $39 krups is getting tired and falling apart.
TIA
Birddog

Yes but...

Take the spring out of the portafilter or it can cause the pump to overwork.

Then learn the steam the milk, prime the pump routine.

Mine usually produces better lattes than the fancy automatic machines at the local Starbucks.

Orin.

[stackie]

For $99? Yes. Sure, this machine has a major fault to any prosumer espresso hound. The pressurized portafilter. This little device allows one to get what appears to be "crema" from just about any crap that someone might call coffee. Sounds good, right? Wrong. You think you're getting good espresso because you've got crema. Not necessary so, you've just lost one of the signs of a good shot.

I've been able to pull shots on my Barista that would kick the pants of most shops in my town. Then again, I'm starting with my fresh home roast beans and a whole lot more know how and care than the local baristas. Compared to my pro machines, I get 2/10 fantastic shots on the Barista and about 9.8/10 fantastic on my pro machine. Then again the pro machine is way more money.

Again, for $99, you should run down there and buy it. The nest better machine out there is probably the Rancilio Silvia which is about $500 these days if my memory serves correctly. Sure, you may (read: will) get upgrade fever as you progress in coffee (just like cycling). But, this machine is a little tank. I've abused mine for over 8 years and never had a problem. The last few years it sits in my attic waiting to get dusted off for a vacation or a quick honeymoon in the kitchen while the pro machine is being serviced.

PS, must have burr grinder. The Starbucks burr grinder works fine for this machine. There are many better grinders, but the Starbucks one is good enough for this particular machine.

PM me if you want to discuss off forum

Jon

[93legendti]

I can't help with your question, but Starbucks sells Bialetti stove top espresso makers for ~$35. I prefer stove top espresso, but I do get tired of cleaning the espresso maker.

[William]

$99.00? Heck yeah! What you waiting for? Get on down there... :)

Ma William has one and I'm able to pull some pretty good shots out of it when I visit. As been stated all ready, a burr grinder is a must.

Well worth it for the price.





William

[Ray]

I too am a horrible snob and wouldn't be caught dead with that machine. BUT I existed with a similar machine (Saeco with pressurized portafilter) for several years without minding a bit. The difference between a pressurized portafilter and commercial portafilter is night and day in terms of the quality of the shot you can produce. But until you've been to Paree, the farm looks OK too. If you're satisfied with what you get out of it and do all milk drinks (as opposed to straight shots), you'll do OK for as long as you care to. And if you use a good, fresh, espresso blend of coffee, you'll do a bit better than that.

I also have a Silvia and am contemplating a move up to a double boiler machine at some point, but that's a level of insanity that no Meiveci riding cyclist could ever understand..... :cool:

And, no, you can't absolutely can't beat the price.

Enjoy,

-Ray

[oldguy00]

I have a $25 Kitchen Aid grinder (spinning blade) that seems to do a fine job grinding coffee beans. Can some please explain what
the difference is between what I have and a much more expensive burr grinder??

[bostondrunk]

For $99? Yes. Sure, this machine has a major fault to any prosumer espresso hound. The pressurized portafilter. This little device allows one to get what appears to be "crema" from just about any crap that someone might call coffee. Sounds good, right? Wrong. You think you're getting good espresso because you've got crema. Not necessary so, you've just lost one of the signs of a good shot.

I've been able to pull shots on my Barista that would kick the pants of most shops in my town. Then again, I'm starting with my fresh home roast beans and a whole lot more know how and care than the local baristas. Compared to my pro machines, I get 2/10 fantastic shots on the Barista and about 9.8/10 fantastic on my pro machine. Then again the pro machine is way more money.

Again, for $99, you should run down there and buy it. The nest better machine out there is probably the Rancilio Silvia which is about $500 these days if my memory serves correctly. Sure, you may (read: will) get upgrade fever as you progress in coffee (just like cycling). But, this machine is a little tank. I've abused mine for over 8 years and never had a problem. The last few years it sits in my attic waiting to get dusted off for a vacation or a quick honeymoon in the kitchen while the pro machine is being serviced.

PS, must have burr grinder. The Starbucks burr grinder works fine for this machine. There are many better grinders, but the Starbucks one is good enough for this particular machine.

PM me if you want to discuss off forum

Jon

Stackie,
Please clear out your PM's!

[William]

I have a $25 Kitchen Aid grinder (spinning blade) that seems to do a fine job grinding coffee beans. Can some please explain what
the difference is between what I have and a much more expensive burr grinder??

Coffee Grinder Basics

It’s interesting that while coffee lovers are more than willing to spend a lot of money on expensive coffee machines, they forego the grinder, or plan its purchase at a later date. It's equally intriguing that people will spend a lot of their hard earned money buying some of the most exotic and freshest high-quality coffee beans, fresh roasted the day they bought them, and yet get the beans ground at the micro-roastery because they don't have a quality grinder at home. Don’t get me wrong, a reliable brewer and quality beans are necessary for great espresso, but unless those beans are being ground properly and freshly, you’re really missing out on your coffee’s potential.

“Okay,” you say, “I need a grinder. But that’s easy. A grinder’s a grinder’s a grinder, right?" Well, not exactly. First off, there are two different types of grinders – blade and burr – each of which functions differently and is compatible with different types of brewing methods.

Blade Grinders

A blade grinder consists of a small barrel-shaped grinding chamber with a sharp metal blade that spins at a very high and consistent rate of speed. It pulverizes the coffee bean repeatedly until the desired consistency is reached. The fineness of the grounds is determined by the length of time the cutting blades are spinning. These grinders can be found in virtually every department store and kitchen supply shop, as well as most supermarkets.

One of the prime benefits of blade grinders is the low purchase price, but their disadvantage is the lack of uniformity of the coffee grinds they produce. As a blade grinder continues to grind, more powder and irregular shapes are formed. When the grinder is turned off, dust or powder can be seen around the edges, while chunks of varying sizes will be in the center. This can pose quite a problem if you’re brewing with a French press or espresso machine, because their filters will let very fine grinds through and produce a grainy cup. That’s why blade grinders are more commonly used with drip coffee makers, whose paper filters prevent these tiny particles from passing through.

Even with this negative aspect, freshly ground coffee from a blade grinder will be better than store-bought pre-ground coffee that may have been sitting on the shelf for a long time. If your budget won't allow for a burr grinder, consider a blade grinder as a temporary step in your elevation to quality coffee.

Burr Grinders

The burr grinding design and method is the most recommended way for grinding coffee, ideal for almost any brewing application depending on the individual grinder’s range of grind fineness. When shopping for a burr grinder, it is necessary to make sure that the grinder has the capability to grind as finely as you need – some grinders are more compatible with French press and drip coffee brewing than they are with espresso brewing. On Aabree’s website, the range of capability for each grinder is listed in the product’s description, as well as in the specifications in our Compare Products section, so you’ll easily be able to find out which grinder will work for you.

A burr grinder strips off slivers from the coffee bean, exposing the cellular wall structure and providing a lot of surface area for the water to extract all that coffee goodness from. Burr grinders also produce a lot less heat in the grounds when compared to a blade grinder, which helps to preserve the aromatics and oils that promote great tasting coffee. In the coffee lover's mind, there is little doubt that a burr-based grinder offers a much better grind consistency and quality compared to the results from a blade-based grinder.

Burr grinders come in two basic formats for the consumer and light commercial market - a flat open hole disk known as a "flat burr", and a cone shaped layout known as a "conical burr". Both feature two metal parts - a top and a bottom. Only one of the two parts actually revolves, while the other remains stationary.

With either conical or flat burr grinders, the coffee bean falls from the bean hopper through a chute into the grinding chamber inside the machine (gravity provides the push here). Here they are milled into a uniform size. The distance between the spinning disk or cone and the stationary cutting surface determines the size of the grounds. When you adjust the coffee grinder's fineness setting, you are actually adjusting the height between the two metal parts that make up the cutting surfaces of your grinder. The closer they are, the finer the grind.

Finely, I Understand.

What do I hope you take away from this guide? Keep getting that fresh roasted coffee. Keep researching the market, magazine articles, friends' opinions, and informational websites about what the best espresso machine or coffee-brewing device is for your price budget. But also learn that a grinder must be part of this budget, at least if you’re seeking the best possible cup of coffee or the richest, sweetest shot of espresso. Move the grinder up to the head of the class, and make it the star of your quest for a rich, full, and satisfying beverage experience.

aabreecoffee.com

[mschol17]

There are multiple advantages of a burr grinder vs. a blade grinder. The burr grinder crushes the bean, whereas the blade grinder shatters the bean, adding heat and changing the flavor of the coffee. The burr grinder produces a more consistent grind (i.e. all the particles are the same size), which allows a more even extraction of the espresso.

Those in the know about espresso machines say the grinder is more important than the machine; you can get a better shot from a $200 espresso machine with a $300 grinder than you can with a $500 machine and $50 grinder.

[Ray]

Those in the know about espresso machines say the grinder is more important than the machine; you can get a better shot from a $200 espresso machine with a $300 grinder than you can with a $500 machine and $50 grinder.
Absolutely - not even close. But that's assuming one of the low-end commercial portafilter espresso machines, like a Gaggia. Then again, for the best of both worlds, you're looking about $450-$600 for the grinder and $1500-$2000 for the espresso machine. No compromises anywhere with that kind of setup. Sounds crazy, I know. But look at your bikes and recognize its just a matter of prioritizing your obsessions.

-Ray

[MarcusPless]

I don't know if Rebecca still works there but back in 2003 I ordered a couple of non-pressurized portafilter handles for the Starbucks/Saeco machines from Saeco North America:

"We do carry a non-pressurized portafilter, which is currently sold for$18.50. It is part number 226.550.263. The filter basket for this filter is part number 124.650.621 and is sold for $3.86. I would be more than happy to assist you with an order or any other questions you might have, please feel free to contact me at rpierce@saeco-usa.com or via phone at 800-933-7876 ext.107.

Thanks again,

Rebecca Pierce
Saeco-USA
Customer Support
Tel.800-933-7876 ext.107"

That machine is definitely a deal for $99! I've been using a Solis Maestro burr grinder with my machines for 4 years now with no complaints.

--Marcus

[Birddog]

Thanks for the comments. I guess I'll get on down and buy it.

I would like to add that not all burr grinders are worth it. For Christmas I received a Cuisinart burr grinder that is a worthless POS. It is impossible to NOT make a mess, and the coffee is almost always ground to two different degrees of fineness no matter the setting. My old $12 chopper does a much better job in terms of consistency. As for my tastes, I can't really tell the difference in the grinders. I have not yet reached that level of sophistication/snobbery, and I still buy Starbucks coffee, because they seem to be the most consistent in this market. I really like their French Roast above all the others available here. I will be using this thing 95% of the time for Cappucinnos, which I like on the dry side. I'm the only coffee drinker in the casa. Based on the comments so far, I am assuming that I can expect this Barista to be laterally stiff while maintaining a fair degree of vertical compliance. I can't wait to get it and then get up to speed and do some espresso planing.
Thanks again,

Birddog

[gt6267a]

A few questions:

* Is the Starbucks machine a re-badged Saeco? If so, what model Saeco?

* What is a pressurized / non-pressurized portafilter? What is the impact on the end product?

Thanks and regards,
Keith

[Birddog]

OK I bought it. It even came with a free lb of Espresso Roast.

Birddog

[cadence90]

I am from the Veneto.
This is what I use.

http://www.hasbean.co.uk/images/moka.jpghttp://www.museum.vic.gov.au/design/images/La-Conica.jpg

[dave thompson]

I bought one of these babys when I was in Italy, 10 Euro, works perfectly on my stovetop.

[Marron]

I have made the progression over the past 15 years from a Krups steam machine, through a Saeco (13 years), a Sylvia (2 years) and finally a Andreja Premium (6 months). Along the way I have learned a few things about espresso (it's all in the grinder and the hands) and I have been taught a few humbling lessons.

The biggest lesson started 4 years ago when I was back at the Jersey shore for a vacation with my wife's family. At the time, we were staying 20 minutes away from the nearest decent espresso bar and so out of desperation, I headed over to Target and bought a Melita Krups clone. After paying for itself in the first hour it went on to satisfy the assembled multitudes for the rest of the week. It wasn't fast, but we're on vacation right?

Fast forward to last month when, once again, we assemble at the Jersey shore, only now I've had the experience of owning the Sylvia and the Andreja. My brother in law has kept the Melita and once again it's our only source of espresso. At the end of the week my wife, who has a daily vanilla latte (most emphaticaly not espresso in my book), tells me that I haven't made lattes this well since the last time we were at the shore and she can't figure out why we go through all the rigamarole with the Andreja.

My theory is that its like playing a slot machine; the more sophisticated the espresso machine the more uncertain the outcome. You can either get a god shot or dishwater its up to you and the espresso gods.

[MarcusPless]

A few questions:

* Is the Starbucks machine a re-badged Saeco? If so, what model Saeco?

* What is a pressurized / non-pressurized portafilter? What is the impact on the end product?

Thanks and regards,
Keith

My two Starbucks branded machines are re-badged Saecos. I believe the Barrista is a re-badged Saeco Estro (not positive), and I've also got the Starbucks predecessor to the Barrista that is either a re-badged Saeco "Gran Crema" or "Rio Vapore" (not positive because I haven't looked at this stuff for years). I bought both machines used from someone that had managed to break both of them. One had a wiring problem that required a new switch and the other needed a new pump. Parts were readily available (4 years ago). Haven't had to touch them since; they just work.

A pressurized portafilter is spring loaded; non-pressurized has no spring and relies on you getting the grind correct and then correctly tamping the grounds in the portafilter to build the desired pressure. Purists would never use a pressurized portafilter. :D I'm not a purist, nor am I a coffee snob, but I do like the traditional, non-pressurized portafilter. :banana: Go check out the Coffee Geeks forums if you need to feel better about your bike obsessions. ;)

--Marcus

[gt6267a]

I don't know if Rebecca still works there but back in 2003 I ordered a couple of non-pressurized portafilter handles for the Starbucks/Saeco machines from Saeco North America:

"We do carry a non-pressurized portafilter, which is currently sold for$18.50. It is part number 226.550.263. The filter basket for this filter is part number 124.650.621 and is sold for $3.86. I would be more than happy to assist you with an order or any other questions you might have, please feel free to contact me at rpierce@saeco-usa.com or via phone at 800-933-7876 ext.107.

Thanks again,

Rebecca Pierce
Saeco-USA
Customer Support
Tel.800-933-7876 ext.107"

That machine is definitely a deal for $99! I've been using a Solis Maestro burr grinder with my machines for 4 years now with no complaints.

--Marcus

the number is diff, but is this the device?

http://www.saecooutlet.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=182

[MarcusPless]

the number is diff, but is this the device?

http://www.saecooutlet.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=182

That might be the current version, but it doesn't look like the model I bought. It might be worth a phone call to Saeco to see if they have anything else available, or just to confirm that what you're looking at is the correct portafilter for your machine.

--Marcus

[Ray]

Tried to respond to your offline espresso question, but your mailbox was full.

-Ray

[Your_Friend!]

Ray !


Sorry!


Y_F!


Ok! All Better Now!

[paczki]

A Salvatore espresso machine:
http://www.salvatore-espresso.com/Semi_Auto.htm

And a Rancilio Rocky grinder. The espresso machine was a bit cheaper when I got it, and I had it done in Merckkx orange (really!). It was a super investment, cheap for me since my girlfriend bought it for me for my 40th, but well worth it for her as well. I make espressos and cappucinos for us twice a day and the results are better than most any restaurant or espresso bar. The grinder is important, but the quality machine is as well. If you count up all the $3 espressos it pays for itself eventually.

[BoulderGeek]

Happy Silvia owner for seven years, now.

Posting from Reykjavik, Iceland, as well. It's cold and raining here. You're not missing much.

All of the important info was disseminated above. Good posts, all. Probably good stuff to be gleaned off of alt.coffee archives, as well (that's how I started my research).

My only addition is that I have been doing well with a Solis Maestro grinder. I would love a Rancilio Rocky, but am afraid of the price. The Maestro has been remarkably good for the $125 it cost.

Also, clean your machine regularly. Don't let it go off or too long.

I just had sublime coffee experiences in Italy, the pinnacle was from the Lake Como Hostel, if you can believe it. I am packing 2 kilos of prime Grade A Italian roasted beans which I swear are magically possessed. I can't wait to see how they do at home. The doppio macchiatos they made in Italy were Serotta smooth.

Damn, back to the States in two days. :-( I'm tan, and my quads are sorta strong, though. The 75 year old dessicated Italian skeletons riding 1982 Cioccs still walk all over me, of course.

[MarcusPless]

Just to affirm what BoulderGeek had to say...

When I was looking into this a few years ago the Rancilio Rocky was considered the "starting point" for grinders by a number of the 'core' fanatics. The fanatics that were a little closer to my economic reality felt like the Solis Maestro was a reasonable starting point. :D

My Maestro grinder seems to give me "good enough" grinds; I feel that it was $125 well spent and I've been happy with it. I know a number of people also like the Starbucks branded grinder that looks like a slightly smaller version of the Maestro. I bought my Maestro grinder at an LCS (Pete's Coffee Shop) for the same price that the online sellers were selling for at the time.

--Marcus

[jbay]

Ah, cycling and espresso. A potent mixture!

Given that folks are extolling the virtues of fine coffee grinders, I will mention that I have a lightly used Macap M5 grinder for sale, like this one:

http://www.coffeegeek.com/proreviews/firstlook/macapm5

If anyone is interested, send me a PM.

-- John

[Louis]

Jeez, how many different things/activities in one's life can someone obsess over? For me it's mostly just cycling, but for others it seems to also include coffee, and who knows what else...

I wonder how many people do this with nearly everything in their life? If you do, then you are certifiably nuts!

Louis

[stackie]

PM's cleared.

Glad you got the machine. It's a great deal at that price. Welcome to the journey. Soon, you'll be on to the Meivici of espresso machines, the La Marzocco GS3. :) First, you gotta get away from the Charbucks. They overroast all of their coffee to gain consistency in their coffee. Kind of like the Mickey D's of coffee. By overroasting, they avoid any varietal differences in coffees from year to year and even grower to grower. Fine for starters, but you can do much better. Check out your local area for a roaster. You'd be surprised that there may well be one. You'll get better coffee and you'll be supporting a local versus a corporate behemoth.

Remember there are 4 M's of espresso in Italiano. Translated, they are the hand, the beans, the grinder, and the machine. The machine is honestly probably the least important. If you have the hand, you can overcome many of the faults of your machine.

A few tips on the Barista machine. It is a single boiler which means it has to cycle between two temps for steaming and brewing. Ca. 240 for steam and ca. 200 for brew. So, if you are doing a latte or cappa, warm up to steam temp with the steam button depressed. Steam your milk. Then release the steam button and flush the machine by pushing the brew button until the green ready light goes out. The machine has now cooled to less than 200 deg. Now wait for green ready light to come on and lock in your portafilter and brew. You want your shot to take 27 seconds for a 1.5 to 2.0 oz double (don't bother with singles. they're harder and what's the point?). If you get your volume in less than 27 sec, grind more finely with your grinder, and vice versa. Don't forget to keep swirling your milk after you steam it so you have your foam well integrated into your milk. Otherwise, you'll have trouble with your rosetta. See attached photo.

It would be hard to obsess over everything. I just have 2. Bikes and coffee. Well, three. Kids and wife, first. Then, bikes and coffee.

Personally, I think it's good to have a couple of things in your life that you really love. The rest you can muddle by on. But, you have to have some true loves to differentiate yourself.

Jon

[Steelhead]

OK I bought it. It even came with a free lb of Espresso Roast.

Birddog

I keep wondering, is that a store/company wide price or just for your local 'Bucks? Starbucks does not franchise except in the rare occasion (inside airports, grocery stores, etc...) so I am wondering if I can get one at one of the FIVE Starbucks between home and my office (6 miles).

[William]

I keep wondering, is that a store/company wide price or just for your local 'Bucks? Starbucks does not franchise except in the rare occasion (inside airports, grocery stores, etc...) so I am wondering if I can get one at one of the FIVE Starbucks between home and my office (6 miles).

I called my local STB, and they were running the same price. They were out and only knew of one other store in the state that had a few left.



William

[oldguy00]

If anyone would like to pick up a $99 starbucks machine for me and ship it to Canada, I'd be happy to treat you to a pound of your favorite beans!! :)

Also - when using an espresso machine, do you only use 'espresso' beans, or do you use regular coffee variety beans, like sumatra, etc.?

[Too Tall]

I believe that price is nation-wide. I've seen them for sale here as well.

[93legendti]

I believe that price is nation-wide. I've seen them for sale here as well.

Michigan as well--not to mention the ea3400 Magnifica for $449! I bought mine last month for $649 and thought THAT was a great deal. Geez, 3 button operation. No more spilled grounds on the floor and counter tops. :)

[gt6267a]

I acquired a machine last night so it appears to be nationwide. Oddly, the employees at the store did not even know about the sale until I had the machine on the counter. They were all very excited and I wonder if they did not acquire a few with their employee discounts.

This morning, I made myself a latte-like drink (it really could not have been a cappuccino if I wanted one since the frothing of the milk was weak). It was tasty and fun. One nice advantage to doing this at home, non-scalded milk. My LCS (local coffee shop), has f-ed up thermometers or has not caught onto the delay between readout and liquid temp or something since the milk is always over done. Anyhoo, it looks like there is more to learn on the milk front than not over-heating it.

After monkeying around with coffee cups, glasses, and other kitchen items that were good but not great for this purpose, I sense some accessory purchases in my near future.

The 27 sec advice is great but I am sure will drive me crazy … I guess in the good way. If you have any other tips, please share!

[Bill D]

For those who can't find good coffee beans locally, there are several options for roasters who will ship to your door. Most will roast and ship the same day, so you end up receiving the beans a few days after roasting. Maybe not the ideal for the true purists, but I've found mail-order to be a great way to try a wide variety of coffee types that I wasn't able to find locally.

Two roasters that I've tried several times each and liked each time:

Intelligentsia Coffee Roasters (http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com) is in Chicago.
Counter Culture Coffee (http://www.counterculturecoffee.com) is in North Carolina.

There are lots of others I've heard of but not tried, but these two I KNOW are good and reliable from firsthand experience.

-Bill

[dave thompson]

I've used Marlton Coffee: http://www.marltoncoffee.com/servlet/StoreFront and found them have very good products and to be reliable.

[Ray]

For those who can't find good coffee beans locally, there are several options for roasters who will ship to your door. Most will roast and ship the same day, so you end up receiving the beans a few days after roasting. Maybe not the ideal for the true purists, but I've found mail-order to be a great way to try a wide variety of coffee types that I wasn't able to find locally.

Two roasters that I've tried several times each and liked each time:

Intelligentsia Coffee Roasters (http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com) is in Chicago.
Counter Culture Coffee (http://www.counterculturecoffee.com) is in North Carolina.

A strong second on Intelligencia. Their Black Cat blend is awesome for espresso and very good for french press also. More forgiving over a wider range of temperatures than a lot of blends (don't try Vivace's beans unless you have a VERY stable machine with fine temperature adjustments) and just phenomenal tasting espresso when you get even close. As noted, they ship the same day they roast and it gets to lots of east coast locations in two days UPS ground. Perfect amount of time for the bean to de-gas, so they're just about perfect when I get 'em. Now that the coffee gods at Home-Barista.com have determined that freezing doesn't affect taste (there are some caveats about how you have to handle the beans, but not difficult), I buy about 8 pounds at a time and put 'em all in the freezer when I get them, so they're frozen at that perfect two-day out point. Then, as I defrost each pound, it's good for about five days, which is about how long it takes us to drink it. Good system - great coffee.

-Ray

[mschol17]

I'd also like to say that we really enjoy Counter Culture coffee. They sell/serve it at the best local shop in DC, and it's been fun to try a different kind each week for the french press.
Furthermore, Counter Culture has a long history of fair trade coffee, working with co-ops to not only pay a decent price for the coffee, but also encouraging quality so that the farmers can get more than the floor price.

[oldguy00]

So what is the best machine to get in the 400 - 500 price range??

[Ray]

So what is the best machine to get in the 400 - 500 price range??
I woulda said Rancilio Silvia, but I think that's gone up to $549 or $599 most places. It's still probably the best home machine out there short of the pro-sumer level machines. But if that's too rich, go for one of the Gaggias. They range from about $200 up to about $500. Their boilers are smaller and aluminum, so they're not as robust as the Silvia, but they get up to temperature for steaming quicker (and then run out of steam quicker too). They're probably a bit less finicky than a Silvia and you can pull great shots with them. Again, the grinder is the more important component at that level, so go for something like a Rancilio Rocky and a Gaggia machine rather than stretching to go for a Silvia and sticking with a cheap grinder.

-Ray

[93legendti]

http://www.starbucksstore.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=131861

$449.99 closeout. A super machine.

[paczki]

Espresso Temescal is holy grail.

http://www.bluebottlecoffee.net/

[Simon Q]

FWIW, I did a basic barrista course and the only two simple home benchtop machines that they would go near are the Gaggia Classic and the Rancilio Silvia as these guys have commercial standard internals. As a good burr grinder is also a must, as outlined above.

[Kirk007]

If you can find it is another great machine in this price range (well maybe a bit more; we paid around 600 at a wholesale grocer). It's considered a commercial machine but is a nice size for the home. Nuova Simonelli makes mostly commercial machines, and this has heavy duty boiler etc. Not as pretty as the Ranchilio but a real workhorse. It's on 6-7 hours a day 7 days a week at our house. Only thing we do is keep it clean and we've replaced head gasket twice in two years. we were clued in by one of the local espresso house owners, who have it as thier home machine.

The Gaggio and Ranchilio are both really nice grinders. The Nuova Simonelli MCF also works really well.

For espresso beans also consider Cafe Vivace in Seattle. They are fanatics; have a nice book on pulling espresso etc., and they sell roasted and green beans.

If you want to REALLY get carried away, get a small home roaster and roast your own. Can't beat it. All sorts of green beans available on line.

My garage looks like a bike shop and smells like a coffee house.

Greg

[William]

A strong second on Intelligencia. Their Black Cat blend is awesome for espresso and very good for french press also. More forgiving over a wider range of temperatures than a lot of blends (don't try Vivace's beans unless you have a VERY stable machine with fine temperature adjustments) and just phenomenal tasting espresso when you get even close. As noted, they ship the same day they roast and it gets to lots of east coast locations in two days UPS ground. Perfect amount of time for the bean to de-gas, so they're just about perfect when I get 'em.
-Ray

I second (or third) kudos on Intelligencia & the Black Cat blend. Marco has set me up a few times with their awsome beans. :cool:


William

[Bill D]

Another thing I really like about Intelligentsia and Counter Culture is that they go to great lengths to work with the locals in the countries where they buy their beans to help them increase quality/consistency and ultimately increase prices. Someone else pointed this out above, I think. It's not just about labels like "fair trade" or "organic" or "shade grown"; it's more fundamentally about aligning an interest in getting great beans with an interest in teaching farmers to be more successful for themselves. Both Intelligentsia and CC seem to have similar programs in that regard, but Intelligentsia does a particularly good job of telling those stories on their website. I find those stories really interesting to read, and it makes me feel like I'm supporting a business I can feel good about.

My wife and I make coffee with a French press (meaning we have not succumbed to the espresso obsession...yet), and we have been loving the Ethiopian and Rwandan coffees at both Intelligentsia and Counter Culture. We're not experts by any means, but those are some seriously good coffees! :D

On a related topic, I've been struggling lately with whether to upgrade my little Krups burr grinder with something like the Maestro or Rocky. Is it worthwhile to spend more for a grinder even for French press coffee?

-Bill

[MarinRider]

Intelligentia is now open in LA. No more making a trek to Chicago for coffee and have your entire suite case full of clothing smelling like Black Cat for days.

I usually do Petes in Bay Area, but once in a while I need to get a Black Cat fix.

[Simon Q]

Another thing I really like about Intelligentsia and Counter Culture is that they go to great lengths to work with the locals in the countries where they buy their beans to help them increase quality/consistency and ultimately increase prices. Someone else pointed this out above, I think. It's not just about labels like "fair trade" or "organic" or "shade grown"; it's more fundamentally about aligning an interest in getting great beans with an interest in teaching farmers to be more successful for themselves. Both Intelligentsia and CC seem to have similar programs in that regard, but Intelligentsia does a particularly good job of telling those stories on their website. I find those stories really interesting to read, and it makes me feel like I'm supporting a business I can feel good about.

My wife and I make coffee with a French press (meaning we have not succumbed to the espresso obsession...yet), and we have been loving the Ethiopian and Rwandan coffees at both Intelligentsia and Counter Culture. We're not experts by any means, but those are some seriously good coffees! :D

On a related topic, I've been struggling lately with whether to upgrade my little Krups burr grinder with something like the Maestro or Rocky. Is it worthwhile to spend more for a grinder even for French press coffee?

-Bill

Money spent on a good grinder is always money well spent.

[H.Frank Beshear]

A local Starbucks is blowing out their Barista model for $99 (reg $449) is this machine worth it? My $39 krups is getting tired and falling apart.
TIA
Birddog

Thanks for the post I just pulled my first 2 shots, yum, it was a little complicated and messy the first time but what isn't :rolleyes: . Thanks again I'd have never seen the sale otherwise. Frank

[bostondrunk]

So what are some decent grinders that won't break the bank? I see there is a Ktchen-Aid pro? model that seems like it can be found for under $200......looks a bit like one of their mixers. What else is good in that price range?

[mschol17]

Another thing I really like about Intelligentsia and Counter Culture is that they go to great lengths to work with the locals in the countries where they buy their beans to help them increase quality/consistency and ultimately increase prices. Someone else pointed this out above, I think. It's not just about labels like "fair trade" or "organic" or "shade grown"; it's more fundamentally about aligning an interest in getting great beans with an interest in teaching farmers to be more successful for themselves. Both Intelligentsia and CC seem to have similar programs in that regard, but Intelligentsia does a particularly good job of telling those stories on their website. I find those stories really interesting to read, and it makes me feel like I'm supporting a business I can feel good about.

My wife and I make coffee with a French press (meaning we have not succumbed to the espresso obsession...yet), and we have been loving the Ethiopian and Rwandan coffees at both Intelligentsia and Counter Culture. We're not experts by any means, but those are some seriously good coffees! :D

On a related topic, I've been struggling lately with whether to upgrade my little Krups burr grinder with something like the Maestro or Rocky. Is it worthwhile to spend more for a grinder even for French press coffee?

-Bill


Just what I meant to say, only you did it much more eloquently... We're also big fans of the Rwandan coffee.

We have a Solis Maestro Plus for our french press, and we've been very happy with it. I think they are also badged as Baratza, but call 1st-line.com and wholelattelove.com to see if they have any demos or returns, since that's how I got mine.

A new/refurbished Silvia for less than $500...

http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=999991

[mschol17]

So what are some decent grinders that won't break the bank? I see there is a Ktchen-Aid pro? model that seems like it can be found for under $200......looks a bit like one of their mixers. What else is good in that price range?


The Kitchen Aid Pro has been universally panned. I wouldn't recommend it. Look on Coffeegeek.com's forums and find a used Rocky, IMHO.

[H.Frank Beshear]

I've got a baratza virtuoso that works well. If you get one that has the opaque hopper for the grounds email the company and have them send out the black one. It does away with the static and makes it much easier to clean. Mine is a couple years old and has held up well. Frank

[Ray]

The Kitchen Aid Pro has been universally panned. I wouldn't recommend it. Look on Coffeegeek.com's forums and find a used Rocky, IMHO.
If you're using a Starbucks Barista or another machine with a pressurized portafilter, a Solis Maestro or Barzata or whatever is generally fine - those machines don't rely on the grind for the pressure of the shot (that's what the 'pressurized' portafilter attempts to do). If you get a machine with a commercial grouphead/portafilter like a Gaggia, Silvia, or beyond, the lowest priced grinder that most folks find acceptable is the Gaggia MDF, which I'm thinking is still in the $200 range. Next up is the Rancilio Rocky, up closer to $300. And then you get into the Mazzer and Macap and now you're talking $450 and up (waaaaay up, in some cases).

So how good a grinder you need depends on the machine to some extent, but you're ALWAYS better spending for a better grinder if you can.

-Ray

[justinf]

My local SB has the Barista and the DeLonghi Magnifica available on sale. Has anyone used the super-auto Magnifica? Is it a really good machine, or do you recommend the Barista and it's simplicity? I'm a newbie to all this. . .

[93legendti]

My local SB has the Barista and the DeLonghi Magnifica available on sale. Has anyone used the super-auto Magnifica? Is it a really good machine, or do you recommend the Barista and it's simplicity? I'm a newbie to all this. . .


I bought the ea3400 Magnifica 4 weeks (for $200 more than it costs now...) and love it. Simple, fast, consistent and tastes great.

[Moosedryvr]

Picked up the Magnifica this afternoon, thanks to all for the head's up! Got the last one in our area, was a floor model so the gal at the local SB gave me an additional 30% discount!! Sweet! Total = $314.30!
If figured since I can't go to Italy this fall I might as well bring the coffee here. Now I need some suggestions for good espresso beans. Any recommendations in addition to those above?

Shawn G

[93legendti]

Picked up the Magnifica this afternoon, thanks to all for the head's up! Got the last one in our area, was a floor model so the gal at the local SB gave me an additional 30% discount!! Sweet! Total = $314.30!
If figured since I can't go to Italy this fall I might as well bring the coffee here. Now I need some suggestions for good espresso beans. Any recommendations in addition to those above?

Shawn G

Congrats! Thats is a smoking deal.

I vary between Peet's Espresso and Starbucks: Breakfast, House and Italian Roast blends. IIRC, Espresso beans do not have a lot of caffeine and the milder Breakfast and House have more caffeine, so I like to use those for the a.m., when I need to get and go. The grinder doesn't care how the beans were roasted, it will grind any bean to the right coarseness.

[stackie]

Caffeine content of beans:

Rules of Thumb in order of importance.

Robusta beans have twice the caffeine of Arabica beans. They generally taste like ****. A few exceptions prove the rule.

Espresso has less caffeine than brewed coffee. Why? Decreased water contact time with the beans.

Darker roasts have slightly less caffeine than lighter roasts as a small amount of caffeine is destroyed by the temperature.

"Breakfast" blends probably have a bit of robusta blended in to increase caffeine. This is probably the reason for the extra kick. However, I find that I do not like the taste of the lighter roasts for espresso. You have to decide if you are interested in coffee or a caffeine delivery system. If the latter, grab a cup of Folger's and go. Or, bypass the bitter taste of crap in your mouth and swallow two Vivarins with your OJ. If you're in it for the taste, get the best espresso roast beans you can. If you still want more caffeine, have two. Heck, I have two double latte's each morning before work. On the weekends, my wife can't even keep up the count. I've had as many as eight in a day. Of course, my lattes only use 4 oz of milk, so I'm not pounding eight venti white chocolate mocha thingeys with double whipped and a shot of caramel.

As far as beans go, support your local roaster first. Try Intelligentsia. They are number one for good reason. If your local guy is nowhere near Intelligentsia, by all means order beans off the web. Other great places to buy beans on the web are Zoka and Stumptown. Espresso Vivace is great, but as previously mentioned the beans are very temp sensitive. I would not recommend unless you have a stable precise temp machine, such as La Marzocco or Synesso, maybe the La Spaz.

Super autos? Great if you just want a espresso/cappa/latte with min fuss. If you want the best possible, you need to have the ability to control the variables. Personally, I love the process and would almost volunteer at a local shop just to make coffee if I wasn't so darned busy with my career job and kids. I love having people over and just making a bunch of knock your socks off drinks. I have this one friend who'll knock back three at a visit. At first, he was a little sheepish, but once he realized that I love making espresso drinks, he's going for the gusto. Shoot, if you're ever in Pacific Grove, PM me. I'll have you over.

Jon

[jeffg]

So what are some decent grinders that won't break the bank? I see there is a Ktchen-Aid pro? model that seems like it can be found for under $200......looks a bit like one of their mixers. What else is good in that price range?

Gaggia MDF

Had one for 15 years (along with a Gaggia Classic Coffee) and only had to replace the burrs a few times ...

[Bill D]

Just what I meant to say, only you did it much more eloquently... We're also big fans of the Rwandan coffee.

We have a Solis Maestro Plus for our french press, and we've been very happy with it. I think they are also badged as Baratza, but call 1st-line.com and wholelattelove.com to see if they have any demos or returns, since that's how I got mine.

A new/refurbished Silvia for less than $500...

http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=999991

Thanks for the extra info on grinders, mschol17. I'll look into that. Maybe I can convince the wife that a good grinder would be a good b-day present that would benefit us both. :) By the way, if you like the Rwandan from Counter Culture, definitely try their Ethiopian Yirgacheffe Shakissa. We've been loving that one, too.