What are reasonable expectations, and who can meet them?

[jwb96]

I have not owned nor ridden a lot of bikes in my life (although I hope to change that), and while I could tell the difference between the few I've owned were I blindfolded I surely don't have a good perspective on what's really possible in tuning the ride, feel, stiffness, compliance, etc.

So as I was reading the Bike Snob's latest reviews (http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2007/08/bsnyc-2008-dream-bike-shootout.html) and chuckling at the "frame that was laterally stiff yet vertically compliant" comments, I began to really wonder if this new golden standard for frame construction was truly achievable. I know there are more technical debates about whether this should be the standard and how much of each is ideal, but I'd be interested in hearing if people are asking for this in their bikes and how expectations have stood up to reality. And where in the spectrum between fast comfortable bikes and comfortable fast bikes have the expectations been best met?

And while I'm at it, has carbon fiber's promise of being the most tunable material been realized? Bike lust has hit again and Parlees and Crumptons are filling my head and I just got to thinking. Which is a dangerous thing.

Thanks,
Jim

[stevep]

what do you have now?
how much do you ride?
what kind of rides do you like?


mush these altogether to figure out what is right.

rule of thumb. never buy a bike that costs more than twice what the bike you have cost. you dont know enough yet.
if you have no bike ...start at $2k.

[Ozz]

...Bike lust has hit again and Parlees and Crumptons are filling my head.......
+1 (for me, it is a Crumpton and Hampsten/Parlee ;) )

But then, I ask myself: "How do I want the new bike to differ from Legend or CSI?"

I have no answer for that yet....other than to get some new wheels. :beer:

[Len J]

Let intended use define the ride.......not the other way around.

Len

[Bart001]

But then, I ask myself: "How do I want the new bike to differ from Legend or CSI?"


That's the "rule" I've set for myself now. Until I know how I want a new bike to differ from what I ride now (Concours ti), I ain't buyin' one.

[RPS]

And where in the spectrum between fast comfortable bikes and comfortable fast bikes have the expectations been best met?Marketing. :rolleyes:

There is no tangible evidence that the two are mutually exclusive. In the right context I would argue that speed and comfort must go together.

[jwb96]

Marketing. :rolleyes:

There is no tangible evidence that the two are mutually exclusive. In the right context I would argue that speed and comfort must go together.
I totally agree. Richard Sachs, if I remember correctly, would argue that everyone should ride a racing frame because a true racing frame would be the most comfortable. That is, if you want to go fast comfort is a major factor. But not mutually exclusive does not necessarily mean that there are not compromises to be made. And so now I the question I'm trying to ask (and whether it's a valid question to ask) is to what degree does that compromise have to occur, who is mitigating those compromises the best, etc.

[Too Tall]

Shop for people not materials.

[znfdl]

Shop for people not materials.

+1

[swoop]

know thyself.

[RPS]

But not mutually exclusive does not necessarily mean that there are not compromises to be made. And so now I the question I'm trying to ask (and whether it's a valid question to ask) is to what degree does that compromise have to occur, who is mitigating those compromises the best, etc.JWB96, your question is valid but I'm not sure I know in what context you think a compromise must exist. What are you thinking must be compromised to gain speed at the expense of comfort or the other way around? Are you thinking in terms of weight, geometry, lateral/torsional stiffness, etc...?

[MassBiker]

If I were at all worried about price and Parlee and Crumpton were on my list I would definitely look at a Calfee Luna.
I am not sure you can beat it for bang for your buck.

:beer:

[sg8357]

Shop for people not materials.

Amen...

My fave bad analogy.
When you go looking at paintings, do you only look at oils ?

Does the guy on Antiques Roadshow say, "The picture is painted with Newton Oils, so it is more valuable" ?

Richard Serra's sculptures aren't state of the art, he should be working in carbon fiber.

Scott G.
The Devil was the first to argue from analogy. Old Shia proverb.

[swoop]

think about the bike you have. think about what you like and dislike about it. think about how it behaves entering a turn and exiting. the more reference points you have about what feels good to you and what doesn't, the less random a choice you have to make about what bike to pick.

ride as many different bikes as you can, wheels too. have a little bit of a vocabulary. spend some time with guys that have an informed point of veiw.

don't sell the farm to buy in. expect to have a few bikes that dont quite fit before you understand what fits for you.

understand who you are. listen to your belly about what you like. there's a hundred roads to get you where you want to go.


demo as many bikes as possible. even competitivecyclist.com has a mail demo program...
get in the biggest local club you can for shop discounts and to encounter all the different pionts of veiw.

filter all the info through you.

luck.

[Fixed]

bro it's just a bike ....maybe a great bike but just a bike imho cheers

[MassBiker]

By far the best post of the year!

Well said Fixed.

:beer:

[swoop]

until you're stting there with a new ottrott with a 65 top tube wondering what went wrong.

that's not to say i haven't had entire seasons on bikes or bits that didn't fit and been fine. its just that one is clearly a better option than the other.

[MassBiker]

"until you're stting there with a new ottrott with a 65 top tube wondering what went wrong."

Yeah but that is taking a statement and stretching it to a ridiculous point.

Find a few bikes that catch your interest, test ride a few and you'll know which one you like, it isn't rocket science, contrary to what some people may lead you to believe!

In the end, enjoy it for what it is.....fun!
:beer:

[Ti Designs]

I've gotten sick of showing up on the cheapest bike and getting dropped by all the guys with faster bikes :rolleyes:

[RPS]

I've gotten sick of showing up on the cheapest bike and getting dropped by all the guys with faster bikes :rolleyes:Sadly there's probably some truth to that statement.

Many strong riders who ride more than a couple of hours a week probably do spend more on bikes; so when beginners get dropped by the fitter and stronger riders they probably associate it in part with the equipment.

[RPS]

bro it's just a bike ....maybe a great bike but just a bike imho cheersUnless UCI says otherwise. :no:

[swoop]

at least 1/4 the folks i see riding are on bikes that are either the wrong size or improperly fit.

and they have no idea.

it doesn't matter how old it is or what it costs. its either close enough that you can make it fit or its dialed or its wrong. it certainly needn't cost anything.

but like all things... gawd is in the details.

[flydhest]

Sadly there's probably some truth to that statement.

Many strong riders who ride more than a couple of hours a week probably do spend more on bikes; so when beginners get dropped by the fitter and stronger riders they probably associate it in part with the equipment.

RPS,
Except that TIDesigns was being funny, as he does the dropping, not the other way around.

[swoop]

how willing are you guys to trade in your bikes that fit for ones that don't? no difference to speak of, eh?

[RPS]

RPS,
Except that TIDesigns was being funny, as he does the dropping, not the other way around.I know he was being sarcastic. I was just pointing out that it is sad that many riders end up thinking that way (for real) because faster riders do tend to own nicer bikes -- not that the nicer bikes make them appreciably faster.

[RPS]

swoop, I feel more for the guy who shows up on a correctly fitting new $1000 bike running 105 that weighs 18 pounds, and as soon as he gets smoked on a climb, he immediately starts thinking he needs a $5,000 15-pound CF bike with DA to keep it from happening again.

Fit is easy compared to misinformation and the wrong perception of reality IMHO.

[michael white]

when I go on a group ride I can't help noticing how happy most riders are with their 1000$ bikes. Most of them will go on and on about how much better it is than what they had before. I think the industry has gotten good at its job, despite the frustration some seem to feel.

I remember when I thought my rd was amazing if I could get all my cogs in back.

[Ti Designs]

There's a lot of truth (and a bit of humor) to all of this. I've found that putting a girl on a $700 bike into a group ride full of guys on expensive bike and having her drop 'em on the hill generates lots of expensive wheel sales.

Then there's the fit issue, which I find to be incomplete. The more I work with riders who were simply fit on bikes and sent out to figure out the sport, the more I see the need to take it beyond the shop. Something as simple as how you sit on the bike - how could anyone get that wrong? Yet so many do. Half the fittings I do result in my changing how the rider fits on the bike, not changing the bike. The best bike in the world and the best bike fit don't amount to anything if the rider doesn't know how to use it.

As for my getting dropped, it happens. I'm 43 and the two racers I coached this year are now Cat 2's and about half my age. I got dropped the other week going over the top of a climb, I pinned the blame on my age, my legs, my lungs and my parents. Besides, she's damn strong!

[swoop]

you wouldn't believe the gear on the average ride in west los angeles. the only guys rolling average shlt are the guys that are getting paid to ride. poor fellows.

[Too Tall]

My name is Josh and I spend a large part of my disposable income on bicycles

Audience - (HI JOSH)

Swoop can drop me, TiDesigns can drop me, Frank can drop me, Fixed can drop me, Flyhedst can't drop me ;)

Audience - (Shut and sit down now Josh)

Thank You.

[chrisroph]

I rode the high desert road race this weekend on my steel spec with steel stem and handbuilt 32's OP on centaurs hubs with crappy challenge tires. The tires sucked but the rest of the bike rode perfect.

Good advice here, ride a lot of bikes until you figure out what you like and how to fit it to you. Nobody can tell you this stuff but yourself.

[1centaur]

"Something as simple as how you sit on the bike - how could anyone get that wrong?"

Very easy: sit comfortably or rotate hips (how far?), sit to be comfortable or sit for efficiency, sit farther forward on the saddle or farther back, try to avoid the discomfort of a squishy saddle or a bunchy chamois (that changes from brand to brand), am I supposed to get a tougher butt or does this pain mean I should move, should I get a position that feels best right now or one that will work most effectively for me over 2 hours.

Change saddle - start again. Change tilt - start again. Change geometry - start again. All this before we get into leg length discrepancies and sit bone differences.

How to sit on a racing bike saddle is not intuitive because there are so many goals at that point and so many factors that move things a millimeter in another direction (and if saddle tilt is so important, than a millimeter from any source is important). I have long thought that of all the conventional wisdom floating around on fit and positioning, how to sit on a bike saddle is the most woefully under-discussed. Thus the constant problems people have with saddles and numbness.

[davids]

Here's my take.

First, there are a lot of people weighing in on this thread whose opinions I really respect, including one who fit me and sold me an excellent bike. (I will point out that though he makes the important and valid point that the engine - and your technique, training, etc. - is more important than the bike, he didn't sell me a Huffy. He sold me a Nove.)

Ride a lot of bikes. Find a good store, a good salesperson/fitter/whatever and work with that store and person. I rode about a dozen different bikes as I shopped for my first high-end bike. I learned a lot about what I liked and what I didn't like. Even when I couldn't articulate it well, I could still say, "I like this one more than that one..."

Don't start out with the notion that you need a custom bike. Most of us don't for fit reasons (they're called standard deviations for a reason), and when it came down to it, I didn't feel that I could usefully say, "This bike's my favorite. But I wish it was more _______."

I bought a stock size, stock 'build' Nove, and have no complaints. After riding it for almost two years, I sometimes think the steering could be a snick sharper. But that's part of the learning process/experience of using and owning a great bike. And it's my only real "complaint". I also missed out on choosing my own paint scheme, which honestly was a bummer, but a really minor one.

And even now, I wouldn't really want to have much input into a custom bike, if & when I buy one. Last fall I purchased a Pegoretti Love #3, again stone stock. It's got a very different character than the Nove, and it's also great.

The great advantage of not buying a custom bike is that you can ride the actual bike before buying it!

If I were to buy a custom bike, I'd probably say something like this:

I want a bike I can ride on broken pavement and gravel roads, on rides from 30-50 miles. I want to carry two water bottles and a seatbag. It should be able to fit fenders and fat tires. It should handle as well as my Love #3 and ride smoothly. I want a good, responsive climber. I want a stable descender. And I want it to be sky blue with white panels.
Then I'd get out of the way.

[Fixed]

bro i stop at a shop somtimes to buy tubes or lube and shoot the %^&* with my wrench bro ..cats are always going out for rides around the store ..bro they must know a lot more about bikes than me ( which wouldn't be hard ) but they come back almost always happy sayin this is a really great bike .
i say cool bro (they got to start somewhere) imho it can take a long time to figure out you don't have to spend your kids college fund to have a fast fun bike ..this is a hobby for most of us and messin around with your bike is part of the experience and fun ...as much as learning to ride ..imho
cheers

[stevep]

heres the secret formula:
go buy a $2,000 something.
ride it 3,000 miles next year
ride it 4,500 miles the next year.

take what you know and if you like riding a bike go and get somethign for $4k that does a few things better in the direction that you wanna go.
ride that 5,000 miles the next year
ride it 6,000 the next year.

then grasshopper you will be ready and able to get yrself something nice and not spend big cash on something that doesnt do what you want cause you didnt know what you woulda wanted if you knew the right questions which you did not know back then.*

* translation available for $10.

[1centaur]

stevep's formula is also a good way to get to know how to sit on a bike.

BTW - That's good advice he has. Very.

[RPS]

It’s interesting the thread digressed from the original “comfort versus speed” questions to “cost versus speed”. Maybe all three should be in the mix -- fast, comfortable, "and" affordable.

[manet]

what do you have now?
how much do you ride?
what kind of rides do you like?


mush these altogether to figure out what is right.

rule of thumb. never buy a bike that costs more than twice what the bike you have cost. you dont know enough yet.
if you have no bike ...start at $2k.

what are you trying to say...

don't waste your first efforts in trying to
marry-date-bed-whatever the best
gal, do whatever with a lesser gal.

to the females-of-the-forum, please
pm stevep with any complaints, but
only after you have taken 'gal' out of the
above paragraph and replaced it with 'guy'.

[cool kid]

what are you trying to say...

don't waste your first efforts in trying to
marry-date-bed-whatever the best
gal, do whatever with a lesser gal.

to the females-of-the-forum, please
pm stevep with any complaints, but
only after you have taken 'gal' out of the
above paragraph and replaced it with 'guy'.


buy this. ride the f out of it. smile.

[Fixed]

my first race bike
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Peugeot_home.htm

[Elefantino]

imho it can take a long time to figure out you don't have to spend your kids college fund to have a fast fun bike
Word(s)

[djg]

Shop for people not materials.

Josh, have you been advising the Senate again? :no:

[Too Tall]

Josh, have you been advising the Senate again? :no:
You talking about the Senate "stalling" tactic?

Stooping to bathroom humour, sigh.

[victoryfactory]

Add bikes to the ever increasing list of afficienado things.
We love to take the material things we love beyond the
realm of reality and onto some plateau of perfection, where
our wishes and dreams mix with the limitations of the material world.

Think Wine, guitars, cameras, cigars (for some) stereo, etc.

It's a human condition, an example of our built-in aspiration for the
ultimate truth. It's why we are here.

Recognize it, embrace it if you wish, but don't get too caught up in it.

VF

[cs124]

@ victoryfactory: that really struck a chord with me. thanks.

[stevep]

what are you trying to say...

don't waste your first efforts in trying to
marry-date-bed-whatever the best
gal, do whatever with a lesser gal.

to the females-of-the-forum, please
pm stevep with any complaints, but
only after you have taken 'gal' out of the
above paragraph and replaced it with 'guy'.

manet,
for you i will simplify.
how do you know which girl is best?
or is the most expensive always the best?