What to do....

[kbainter]

Hey guys, this is my first post here. I've been browsing the boards lately since I placed order on a new ottrott. I am having some issues with the shop that I ordered from. I want to see what you guys would do if you were in my shoes. Let me set up the scene for you.

In Jan of 07, I got "fit" at a place in florida on a serotta size cycle bike. I am a pretty tall guy 6'4".... They size me all up and say, the BMC pro-machine bike is absolutely perfect for your measurements, and will work out great. I'm like awesome! That's the one I really wanted all along anyway.

So.... fast forward 5 months. I took my wife to a very reputable shop to get fit to see what bike she should get. Well w/ her long arms/torso, it seemed custom was the way to go. So we got her a concours CS, w/ full rival. She absolutely loves the bike, looks like it fits her as a perfect custom bike should. So it next leads me to my fit.

After seeing all the steps they took her through to get the proper fit, I felt like I got majorly hosed when I was in FL at the bike shop. They never checked for range of motion, they never made sure my shoes fit correctly. They just did a little tweak of the cleat, set me on the size cycle found what they though was "good", and that was it. Well over the past month, I've felt so scrunched up on my bike, and my upper back and neck has experienced fatigue and pain from being so jammed up. So I scheduled a fit at the shop where my wife got her bike/fit from. When I schedule the fit, I make sure they have some shoe options in my size 49 narrow, and say, if you don't have any, I'll buy a couple pairs for you to try on me to see which works best. "no", they say, "we will order the shoes for you and have them in stock". Alrighty, I'll trust them to do that, since they said do not go out and buy any. So two days before the fit, I call in just to verify the fit. The way my life works is that either what I get is broken, or I don't get it at all. So that is why I called to verify. Crap always happens to me. So they say, we don't see you for that date! You should have come in 1 month ago. So they totally botched the reservation for a fit. They finally are able to squeeze me in. Great, so I get there, they do their thing, then we get to shoe fitting. They do not have any 49 narrow's. They have one 49 regular, but that is at another store. It gets there after about 45 minutes, and, like i knew from the beginning, it's to wide. So they have to use my current shoes which are to small to get the fit. So we go through the fit, and then we go over to my current bike. Turns out the BMC is WAY to short in the top tube. When I say short, I mean 6.5 cm's short! The place in FL fit me horrible. How can you be off 6.5 cm's? Unbelievable! So now i'm pissed at how I got hosed in FL, and trying to think how I can explain to the wife that I am going to have to get a custom frame. So she finally gives in to me getting a frame. I wanted the Legend Ti, because I loved the way my wife's matte finished Ti looked. So, I wanted a bike that had no paint, just Matte Ti. Well They talk me into getting the ottrott because it would ride a ton better they said. So I'm like yeah, I guess that is fine, I can still get the Ti lugs in a matte and be happy bout it. I said the only way I am going to order this frame is if I can get it in 4 weeks. The reason I went to get re-fit was because I have a 4 day century each day in 6 weeks. The owner called his serotta rep, and he said no prob, I will have it here in 4 weeks guaranteed. I wanted no paint, just carbon and matte Ti, with a serotta logo on the downtube.

Well, we will fast forward here 3.5 weeks. I finally track down a sidi 49 narrow, after they finally admit they can't find any and wont be able to get any. So I take it into them (2 and 1/2 hour drive away from my house), to get the cleat put on and positioned correctly. Everything sounded great w/ the bike, they said they had some slight issues w/ geometry on the design because of the length of the carbon tubes. I guess since my bike is pretty big, the carbon can't go beyond a certain length. So we had to do a sloping top tube. First of all, when we were going over the design of the frame, I said NO sloping top tube. I want level! On a huge bike like mine, they always look like a clown bike if they are sloping. So that irritated me, but I was able to live w/ it if it didn't look to sloping and I got it in time. Well, the ride is in 3 days, and I called thursday of last week, no reply, e-mailed, no reply from the bike shop. Finally I was freaking out cause I need this frame the promised for this upcoming ride in a week. I called serotta and talked to someone there. They said it wasn't even scheduled/signed off until the week of August 20th to go into production. My heart sank... I was like you got to be kidding me. I placed the order of this bike and they had all info from me the 21st of July. I sold my current BMC frame the week, I ordered the serotta, so they could have all the parts ready for putting on the new frame. So.... I have yet to speak w/ the bike shop because they still will not call back. I am so frustrated w/ the shop, not serotta right now that I could spit. There was absolutely no communication, when who knows... if the Legend Ti would have worked better on a bigger bike, I easily would have done that and got it in time. I don't think they were ever going to call me and tell me they screwed up somehow. Anyway after all this, my question is....

Would you continue to do business w/ this shop. Would you take ownership on a custom frame that wasn't built the way you wanted (sloping top tube)? I now have to ride this ride on a super incorrect fit on an old bike w/ slow wheels because they have all my nice stuff 2.5 hours away. Anyway enough ranting... What would you do in my shoes?

[Bruce K]

Wow, not sure what to say.

#1 Sounds like the FL shop (a small place that begins with an R?) really wanted to sell you the BMC.

#2 Sounds like someone has dropped the ball big time. They seem to have done really well by your wife so they are batting .500 but for me, that would not be good enough.

I would call back to Serotta and try to speak with Kelly Bedford and explain your concerns at this point. If the frame can really be built with a horizontal top tube and is not in production I would ask them if it is possible to put a hold on it so you can re-do the geometry. If it really can't be built with a horizontal tube, then at this point I would wait for it and then once built, find another Serotta dealer to do future business with.

Just my qucik 2 cents and I hope it helps.

BK

[kbainter]

Wow, not sure what to say.

#1 Sounds like the FL shop (a small place that begins with an R?) really wanted to sell you the BMC.

#2 Sounds like someone has dropped the ball big time. They seem to have done really well by your wife so they are batting .500 but for me, that would not be good enough.

I would call back to Serotta and try to speak with Kelly Bedford and explain your concerns at this point. If the frame can really be built with a horizontal top tube and is not in production I would ask them if it is possible to put a hold on it so you can re-do the geometry. If it really can't be built with a horizontal tube, then at this point I would wait for it and then once built, find another Serotta dealer to do future business with.

Just my qucik 2 cents and I hope it helps.

BK

Yeah, you know the Shop in FL.... Sad thing is... They would have sold me a cervelo w/ the same geo on it as well. Crazy how some shops think they are "fitters".

[Bruce K]

Actually, I thought they had a pretty good rep as fitters and they ARE a fairly significant Serotta dealer down there.

It just sounds like someone was looking for a "quick hit" on this one and THAT is sad.

I keep hoping that "pink shop" will become a dealer some day. He would do Serotta proud.

BK

[stevep]

i think they should have been very, very cautious about promising delivery that quickly.
i dont know serottas schedule but it seems like 4 weeks is a tough target to hit for any custom builder...esp for a giant frame.
narrow big size shoes are tough to get. somebodys fault for promising but these things happen. fault the guy who promised them without checking.

i would give them the benefit of the doubt...they did ok by yr wife.
other than some time issues once you get the bike i bet you will like it... its a way better bike than the other bike you had.

as fr the slope? no answer. seems to me like something as dramatic a change as that should have been signed off on by you...particularly as you specified no slope.

its a cheap education imo. i dont know how long you've been into this but mebbe you shoulda done a little more research and you could have figured out the bmc wasnt really very close...

good luck with the new bike. give it a chance.

[William]

This has been one of my problems with the fitter/middle man set up. I had a similar experience, though admittedly your situation sounds worse, where the fitter gaffed the measurements. I'm taller then you so I don't have a choice either....custom or nothing. Dealing directly with the builder is the only way to go IMHO. My Zanconato Cross Bike is dialed in perfectly for my size and weight. I went to his shop to be measured, and so Mike could see me in action on the set up I had at the time. End result perfect. In the future, for any bike I commission, I will be fitted directly by the builder or I won't spend my dollars there.

Don't get me wrong, I know there are some talented fitters out there who have a good track record at fitting people. But, having experienced the dark side of the process, and talking with others who have as well, I'll stick with going direct. (Though Smiley or Paul Levine might be able to convince me otherwise ;) ).

As far as not getting what you ordered. You'll have to work that out with your LBS initially. I wouldn't accept it if it comes in as a sloper and I ordered a level TT. Hopefully Serotta will work with you on resolving the issue.

Like Bruce said, call Kelly and see what they can do for you.
Best of luck.


William

[gdw]

"its a cheap education imo. i dont know how long you've been into this but mebbe you shoulda done a little more research and you could have figured out the bmc wasnt really very close... "

The guy gets screwed by the shop and you blame him for trusting them? Come on. Experiences such as the one he describes are why so many knowledgable riders bypass their LBS completely.

[Tom]

Experiences such as the one he describes are why so many knowledgable riders bypass their LBS completely.

In my case I am more likely to go to my local shop precisely because I know more and am much more confident that I can tell them what I'm thinking and know that we are going to arrive at the right answer.

It's hard not to trust the shop in the first place, after all they have this special equipment and they've been through the school and all that.

If you want to take it that far, talk to Serotta and tell them that this shop isn't doing them any favors. It may not be much to your benefit but I'm sure Serotta'll appreciate it.

[jerk]

there is no way any bike in the world is going to work with a top tube 6cms longer than a bmc that already has a 73' seat angle with a 59cm top tube. the reason tubes don't exist that long is because they'd produce a thouroughly unrideable bicycle with a totally whacked out front center and wheelbase.

at 6'4 you do not need a bike with a 63cm top tube. i'd wager that next to no-one needs one. sounds like the original shop did allright by you and i'd throw them back your business.

they didn't over promise you anything, they got you a fine bicycle and there is alot more to fit than range of motion excercises ansd associated smoke in mirrors.

granted a serotta ottrot is a far nicer bike than a bmc but i'd be more apt to trust the guys who put you on a 61cm bmc than the guys who screwed up every single interface you had with them.

jerk

[Kevan]

what works and doesn't, in terms of bike fit. Frankly, I wouldn't drop serious coin until I knew personally what works for me. 6 cm's is a BIG mistake. I can't imagine how that came to be, short of a penmanship problem. If some guy started pushing even a 58cm frame size at me I'd know he's off base. The juggle between a 60 and 62, he'd have my ear and I would be pushing against the 60, perferring 61.

There's a price for admission. You choose the price of the seat.

[Ti Designs]

A few things on this thread I have a hard time with.

First, it's a forum on the internet. Don't let people make assumptions about fit or needs. I've sold a 56cm bike with a 62cm top tube and a 62cm bike with a 56cm top tube...

Second, there's this concept floating around that builders are the best bike fitters. If it'll make me a better fitter I'll go ahead and braze up a few frames, but I don't really so how that's going to change how I do fittings. OK, there are a number of frame builders on this forum who are exelent bike fitters as well, but that reflects their number of years in the business more than the understanding of how to use a torch translates to the understanding of biomechanics... If there is a real problem with the third party system, it's communication between fitter and builder. Serotta has taken great steps in elimination problems with their spreadsheet, others are still catching up.

Third, every fitter has their own version of the perfect fit. I would have a hard time taking someone whom I have no riding knowlege of, and building them a custom without seeing what they were on, talking about problems or what worked, or seeing them riding. What I see on a trainer and what I see on the road are two different things. I can't see getting an Ottrott just to ride on a trainer, so the fitting is at least in part invalid.

Lastly, problems within the rider's technique can be to blame for things people blame the bike on. Right now I'm working with a number of clients who have various pains while riding. One example would be wrist and neck pain. She has a tendency of leaning all of her upper body weigh on her bars and locking her elbows. I could wreck her position on the bike to not allow her to do this, but she has goals while riding and that would be going the wrong way. So, I corrected her position, I had her look in the mirror so she understood what needed to change, and I sent her away with homework. If she spends the time to replace a bad habit with a good habit, the problem goes away. If not, she goes to another fitter and they wreck her position... Don't always be so quick to blame the bike or the fitter.

[William]

A few things on this thread I have a hard time with.

First, it's a forum on the internet. Don't let people make assumptions about fit or needs. I've sold a 56cm bike with a 62cm top tube and a 62cm bike with a 56cm top tube...

Ok.

Second, there's this concept floating around that builders are the best bike fitters. If it'll make me a better fitter I'll go ahead and braze up a few frames, but I don't really so how that's going to change how I do fittings.

That wasn't my point.

OK, there are a number of frame builders on this forum who are exelent bike fitters as well, but that reflects their number of years in the business more than the understanding of how to use a torch translates to the understanding of biomechanics...

I agree. A builder, as has been stated many times on this forum, should have the first hand knowledge of how sizing and geometry set-up will effect the ride characteristics of his rigs. That's how he/she can dial it in to the measurements of the customer. Direct interaction with the builder reduces the chances of miscommunication.

If there is a real problem with the third party system, it's communication between fitter and builder.

That was my point. Communication can get miscommunicated along with...


Third, every fitter has their own version of the perfect fit.

And through that filter, the communication is translated from customer to builder. I am only speaking from my POV & experience. I would rather communicate directly with the builder.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't good fitters out there. A few that hang on this forum are well respected. But, that doesn't take away from the fact that there are people, myself included,whose experience with fitters was less then stellar. Call it once bitten twice shy syndrome if you like.


William

[Fixed]

http://www.theracersedge.net/
bro this is a cool shop imho

[stevep]

[QUOTE=Ti Designs]A few things on this thread I have a hard time with.

First, it's a forum on the internet. Don't let people make assumptions about fit or needs. I've sold a 56cm bike with a 62cm top tube and a 62cm bike with a 56cm top tube...
QUOTE]

oddly enough, to the same guy. he couldnt make up his mind.

[stevep]

"its a cheap education imo. i dont know how long you've been into this but mebbe you shoulda done a little more research and you could have figured out the bmc wasnt really very close... "

The guy gets screwed by the shop and you blame him for trusting them? Come on. Experiences such as the one he describes are why so many knowledgable riders bypass their LBS completely.

my comment was more along the lines of.
you did not already have a bike?
maybe he was screwed maybe not.
how about some pictures?
i thk there needs participation from both parties in a custom rig like this and if one side does no research and knows nada about it..there is ttrouble brewing as in the original post.
but maybe he knew more about the process than seems to be the case.
hope it works out.
"a fine mess you've gotten me into ollie."

[vaxn8r]

"its a cheap education imo. i dont know how long you've been into this but mebbe you shoulda done a little more research and you could have figured out the bmc wasnt really very close... "

The guy gets screwed by the shop and you blame him for trusting them? Come on. Experiences such as the one he describes are why so many knowledgable riders bypass their LBS completely.
And how do people become knowledgeable riders? Would you suggest he ordered his first bike off the internet? Yeah, I'm sure that woulda worked out _much_ better!


I'm with Jerk on this one. No way his TT is that far off on the BMC unless they put him on a 54. I would have got another opinion before ordering some whack geo Serotta. No offense to Serotta but being 6' 4" shouldn't require specially made tubesets. I think the "S" fitter is whacky ATMO.

[gdw]

"And how do people become knowledgeable riders?"

My point is quite simple. Too many new riders learn about equipment and fit after being ripped off by a local shop. Obviously not all shops take advantage of a new buyers ignorance, hopefully very few do, but it seems all too common in the industry and shouldn't be considered a "cheap education".

That said, there are always two sides to every story and we need more information, especially the size of the BMC he purchased, to judge whether the original shop was negligent.

[RPS]

there is no way any bike in the world is going to work with a top tube 6cms longer than a bmc that already has a 73' seat angle with a 59cm top tube. the reason tubes don't exist that long is because they'd produce a thouroughly unrideable bicycle with a totally whacked out front center and wheelbase....snipped.....
jerkalthough someone should tell the riders pictured below (from the Amsterdam thread) that their bikes’ whacked geometry with long front centers and wheelbases are “thoroughly unrideable”. And that doesn’t even address their whacked-out weight distribution when unloaded. Or is it worse when loaded? :confused:

We must be taking this stuff too seriously. Unrideable? Too subjective.

[swoop]

i'd love to see a picture of you in profile on that bike that's 6 cm too short.
why not drop a call to tom kellogg.. he can get you a nice bike made in ti and i can gaurantee it will fit perfectly.

maybe talk to zinn too.

and then down the line when you know your fit you wont have to deal with a bikeshop employee... you'll tell them what you want rather then have them tell you. and then you can get your serotta fit and see if it works for you or not and compare notes rahter than take a leap of faith.

don't rush it.

as a customer, you have to make the time to pick the right relationship if you don't already know what works for you.


axel merckxs is your hieght, so is taylor phinney.. there's a bike out there for you.

best of luck to you... man that really sucks. try mr. kellogg!

serotta makes killer bikes.. maye an investment this big is worth a trip to see the infamous paul levine....

i guess what i am saying is that at some point you need to put a face on the fitting process...a nd there are lots of smart faces out there. there's more than one right geo for you too....

[jimp1234]

You didn't state how much of your own research you did before hand on bike fitting, but generally a "cheaper education" than plunking down 6 - 7 grand is to do a little reading on your own so you will at least have some context when this fitter or that fitter recommends something to you.
Unless you have a really atypical body issues (e.g. really long legs, short body, injuries, leg length discrepancies, really flexible/not flexible at all, etc.) creating an average frame size after following the bike fit method in the two books below ought to get you close to a "ballpark" frame size. My experience is that a good fitter might fine tune that number by 1 - 3 cm (in any direction,) based on his looking at your "style" of riding, the kind of ankling you do, lower back problems,etc. etc. etc. If you have another bike, you might find it interesting to compare the draft worksheet numbers of your Ottrott against the "ballpark" frame size you generate yourself.



http://www.amazon.com/Pruitts-Complete-Medical-Guide-Cyclists/dp/1931382808

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Ride-Chris-Carmichael/dp/0425196011/ref=pd_sim_b_title/105-1108815-8438844

-Jim

[pdbrye]

Since it doesn't sound like Serotta has even started building your frame yet, the first thing you should do is cancel, or at the very least postpone your order. I assume you put down a deposit and you can make it clear that you will refuse delivery and thus won't pay the balance until you are confident that your concerns are addressed. Neither you, the shop or Serotta want a $6K frame lying around that nobody wants. Then I suggest you start from scratch, either with this shop or another and take your time with the fitting process. Clearly it doesn't pay to "rush" a custom bike.

Good luck!

[vaxn8r]

"And how do people become knowledgeable riders?"

My point is quite simple. Too many new riders learn about equipment and fit after being ripped off by a local shop. Obviously not all shops take advantage of a new buyers ignorance, hopefully very few do, but it seems all too common in the industry and shouldn't be considered a "cheap education".

That said, there are always two sides to every story and we need more information, especially the size of the BMC he purchased, to judge whether the original shop was negligent.
Too many new riders? "All too common?" Man, you got a chip on your shoulder. How many of these shops are able to keep their doors open when they rip people off everyday? I'm guessing shops make more on return customers than on selling a few high end bikes to one and done customers.

Is it possible that new riders have different needs than experienced riders? Maybe they need to transition to a race bike. Maybe a customer thinks he knows more than a guy who's been fitting people for 10 years and wants the most expensive bike on the floor whether or not it's right for him/her? Maybe they have a "knowledgeable" buddy who they want to emulate or who told them what to get. I hang around in shops way more than I should and it's amazing the agendas people walk in with.

I got suckered once on a bike purchase. It wasn't a terrible purchase and I made it work for a few years. Unfortunately I wasn't savvy enough about the process as I thought I was. However, I did learn a whole lot about bike fit and what I wanted in the future. Stuff I might not have figured out without some trial and error, as expensive as that was.

[Bill D]

Seems like we need more information to give an answer that isn't based on a lot of assumptions. As others have pointed out, the first step should probably be to talk to the LBS and/or Serotta to put your order on hold until you get the design issues resolved. That much seems clear.

Beyond that, it's impossible to say whether the first or second shop (or both or neither) was a bunch of idiots because we haven't seen you on your old bike, don't know what size it was, etc. It definitely sounds like there have been bad communication and unfulfilled promises. That's unfortunate and surely affects whether you want to spend money at a place that you don't feel comfortable with, but it sounds like the crux of this is the quality of the fits themselves and the design of the Otrott. Anything we say about those is pure assumption because we don't have firsthand information about which fit made sense for you, if either. Do you have pics of yourself on the BMC? It would be helpful to see those, along with info about it (size, stem size, etc.). And what was the proposed geometry of the new Serotta?

[Grant McLean]

A happy cyclist is someone who takes charge of their own fitting process.

It's the rider's responsibility to get what works for them, and will ultimately
make them comfortable on their bike. That guy in the shop with the protractor
and tape measure doesn't know what the bike feels like for you.

There are fundamental fit prinicples that are a good starting point, and the rest
is up to you.

-g

[Peter P.]

Sorry, but I get the impression you don't have a long history in cycling. I gathered you assumed that merely plunking down big coin guarantees a perfect fit. You can't buy a perfect fit without a lot of personal experience, and that usually comes from owning other bikes of known geometry. I don't get the impression you have this history.

You also seem to assume that just because shop #2 did all that "extra" stuff in fitting your wife that shop #2's method must be right. More is not necessarily better. Sometimes a practiced eye doesn't need a lot of testing to know what fits; it's intuitive and comes with A LOT of experience. A really shrewd fitter who has this experience will go through the motions anyway as a sort of "perceived value" thing for the customer, yet they can peg your numbers pretty closely in 10 minutes or less using a practised eye. I had such a thing happen to me maybe 15 years ago with a Serotta rep. In fact, he fit me up so fast, he only charged me 10 bucks versus the then price of 100 bucks!

We on the forum can't form an opinion on whether EITHER the BMC or the Serotta fit without seeing you on them. Yes, I do think shop #2 dropped the ball with their multiple mistakes, but this sloping top tube thing-you don't sign off on any order form that lists these specs to give your approval? That seems odd and I hope that's really not part of the Serotta ordering process. Check out the Independent Fabrications web site. Their ordering process has a disclaimer stating the ultimate responsibility for the fit is with the dealer and the customer and requires a signature. You check off boxes for every frame spec including top tube slope. This is CYA stuff and just makes sense.

If this stuff "always" happens to you, then you need to change your buying habits and get things in writing so you have something to fall back on. As a possible last resort, if you paid for your frame with a credit card, you might be able to suspend payment due to non-delivery. Most credit cards have these sort of protection policies in place as a selling point. Suspension of payment may give you leverage with the dealer.

[manet]

i say we take up a collection... make a fund to buy him a new frame.
just don't tell stevep or he'll expect same.

[Bruce K]

It has ALWAYS been my experience that the customer has to sign off on the build sheet before an order can be processed at Serotta.

That said, if you didn't sign off on your Ottrott then that's another error by shop #2. If the order was signed of on with a sloping top tube and you didn't question it at the time, then some of this IS on you.

Regardless, as I said before, try to put the frame order on hold until you can sort this all out. The folks at Serotta do not want you to be unhappy, they want you fit correctly and riding a bike that you will enjoy for many years to come.

BK

[Fixed]

Regardless, as I said before, try to put the frame order on hold until you can sort this all out. The folks at Serotta do not want you to be unhappy, they want you fit correctly and riding a bike that you will enjoy for many years to come.

BK
+1
bro serotta 's not a pawn shop they want you have a great bike that is what they do
imho
cheers :beer:

[JohnS]

In Jan of 07, I got "fit" at a place in florida on a serotta size cycle bike. I am a pretty tall guy 6'4".... They size me all up and say, the BMC pro-machine bike is absolutely perfect for your measurements, and will work out great. I'm like awesome! That's the one I really wanted all along anyway.

The last line of the above quote says it all for me. He wanted the BMC so badly that they made it fit for him.
Also, what was the big deal about the shoes? Didn't he have his own to use? Did I miss something here?

[Needs Help]

Would you continue to do business w/ this shop.
No.

Would you take ownership on a custom frame that wasn't built the way you wanted (sloping top tube)?
No.

I now have to ride this ride on a super incorrect fit on an old bike w/ slow wheels because they have all my nice stuff 2.5 hours away. Anyway enough ranting... What would you do in my shoes?
If I got mad enough, I'd sue the shop for fraud. You relied on their promises to your detriment.

To add insult to injury, Serotta was advertising on their website last month that they could deliver unpainted custom ti frames in 2 weeks.

[3chordwonder]

Sounds like it's time to stop talking to this shop of disorganised clowns and instead immediately write to Serotta, explain exactly what happened, spell out exactly what it would take to conclude this order successfully for you from this point on; and ask them to get back to you.

That way they know what your view of their dealer interaction with you was, and based on your letter they can decide what they think will be the best and fairest way to deal with your request (and, behind the scenes, no doubt ask the dealer *** happened).

Serotta sound like they're pretty organised vs. the shop's chaotic environment, and they are probably in a better and more powerful position to decide how to wrap this up to your satisfaction.

[Grant McLean]

If I got mad enough, I'd sue the shop for fraud.

you tell 'em !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dib2-HBsF08&mode=related&search=

g

[Avispa]

#1 Sounds like the FL shop (a small place that begins with an R?) really wanted to sell you the BMC.

Hey!

Easy... careful... easy! ;) I know a small shop that begins with an "R" in FL. But they surely won't do all that crap to a customer!

i think they should have been very, very cautious about promising delivery that quickly. i dont know serottas schedule but it seems like 4 weeks is a tough target to hit for any custom builder...esp for a giant frame....

Steve is right! I was told 8 weeks on my MeiVici and it ended up being twice as that!!! I am not complaining, I know I ordered a hard paint job... but 16 weeks...!!!

I'd wish there was a way to track a custom frame progress on the Serotta web site (perhaps an industry's first?). It would alleviate all the customer anxiety and the phone calling and e-mailing, which I believe also overwhelms the folks at the factory, ya know!

A!

[Fivethumbs]

A happy cyclist is someone who takes charge of their own fitting process.

It's the rider's responsibility to get what works for them, and will ultimately
make them comfortable on their bike. That guy in the shop with the protractor
and tape measure doesn't know what the bike feels like for you.

There are fundamental fit prinicples that are a good starting point, and the rest
is up to you.

-g

I think this is the best response I have ever read in regards to bike fit.

[Bruce K]

Avispa,

I was going easy, but I was curious if it was the shop I was thinking of as I knew they were a BMC dealer, but had also never heard of a fit issue with that shop. Based on what I had heard, they were a pretty decent shop, so this sounded out of the norm for their reputation.

I wasn't trying to call them out or hammer them , just trying to get a handle on the what, where, and who as I don't think we will ever exactly know the how.

BK

[stevep]

i say we take up a collection... make a fund to buy him a new frame.
just don't tell stevep or he'll expect same.

hey manet,
wheres my money. bruce k promised me a custom meivici by the weekend if i can come up w/ the money.


i thk there are 2 sides to this story.
we're only hearing one side.

[Fixed]

2 sides is right
cheers

[kbainter]

Well I didn't want to drop the name of the shop in FL, that I first got my BMC frame from.... but since somebody already did well, I guess that is that. First off, I would assume it is the fitters duty to check range of motion, and get you into the best mechanical position as long as feasibly comfortable (of course a new position requires some getting used to). My experience with the "serotta fit" in FL was that they do a minor adjustment on your cleat, don't check to make sure you have the proper shoe fit. Since shoe fit is based a lot on arch length to put your whatever into a neutral position. My original bike was very incorrectly setup, but being from a smaller area w/ nobody knowing a correct bike fit procedure, I had to pretty much set it up myself. I will admit I bought the BS from the shop in FL because I was just amazed at all the high dollar frames on the wall, ect... After being to the shop where my wife bought her bike, that is how a fit should be, no questions asked. I don't have 20 years in cycling experience, I mean geez, i'm only 24, I'm still learning like a lot of other people, but the FL shop never talked about the proper way to ride, w/ the way the body should be setup on the bike, the way your spine should be in a neutral position, ect.. (i'm pry using a lot of the wrong words here so take them as you may). I will also admit different fitters will be off 2+ centimeters, but geeez, 6+ centimeters? No way. I have finally yesterday afternoon cleared up a lot of things with the local shop. They admited to me they seriously dropped the ball and that they screwed up big time. I'm going to still go through them because I've felt so good on the size cycle there, and the fit was amazing, and there aren't any serotta dealers locally anyhow. The bike shop in FL put me in such an upright position, I questioned them about it, and they go, yeah that's fine as long as we get the power out of your legs accurate. So I was bunched up and I guarantee that is why my back was sore was from a bunk fit. When you look back, you know if people are trying to sell you a bike, or are trying to make you enjoy cycling. Mine was the first. Sure it is not ALL the fitters fault for mis-fits, but it is also the fitters responsibillity to explain how you should be feeling and what to expect, neither of which the shop in FL did.

[kbainter]

of course there are always two sides to every story, unless it is fiction. So take it for what it is.

[kbainter]

And how do people become knowledgeable riders? Would you suggest he ordered his first bike off the internet? Yeah, I'm sure that woulda worked out _much_ better!


I'm with Jerk on this one. No way his TT is that far off on the BMC unless they put him on a 54. I would have got another opinion before ordering some whack geo Serotta. No offense to Serotta but being 6' 4" shouldn't require specially made tubesets. I think the "S" fitter is whacky ATMO.

the TT on that bmc is only 59 cm's and w/ my long arms, and torso it was off. How can you know if the TT is long enough or not? Were you watching me ride the bike? I went to a "reputable shop" to get fit and get a frame. I love how people say "do research". When the same people are like "there's two sides to every story". So how are you supposed to buy it when your not suppsed to believe it?

[kbainter]

"And how do people become knowledgeable riders?"

My point is quite simple. Too many new riders learn about equipment and fit after being ripped off by a local shop. Obviously not all shops take advantage of a new buyers ignorance, hopefully very few do, but it seems all too common in the industry and shouldn't be considered a "cheap education".

That said, there are always two sides to every story and we need more information, especially the size of the BMC he purchased, to judge whether the original shop was negligent.


I got a 61cm BMC frame (biggest they make), and what do you know, they had it in stock as well 2006 model. Looking back now, I have a feeling someone really wanted to unload it for the 07 year. Take advantage of me? No, why would any shop take advantage of a 24 year old that is only 3 years into the sport? Maybe it was because I never heard of a proper fit, or how it was done, ect....

[Fixed]

Caveat emptor
imho
cheers

[vaxn8r]

the TT on that bmc is only 59 cm's and w/ my long arms, and torso it was off. How can you know if the TT is long enough or not? Were you watching me ride the bike? I went to a "reputable shop" to get fit and get a frame. I love how people say "do research". When the same people are like "there's two sides to every story". So how are you supposed to buy it when your not suppsed to believe it?
Good luck with your 66 cm TT.

[BURCH]

I haven't read every single post, but I don't think that any shop should be promising a 4 week turnaround. That being said, I have been in your position of trying to get a high quality product in time for a particular event. I try to avoid doing this, because of the situation you are in, but can't help myself. You get all excited...think it will work out (hey you were told 4 weeks), but it never does work out perfectly. I have been trying to force myself to be more patient with big purchases. Good Luck man.

[obtuse]

the TT on that bmc is only 59 cm's and w/ my long arms, and torso it was off. How can you know if the TT is long enough or not? Were you watching me ride the bike? I went to a "reputable shop" to get fit and get a frame. I love how people say "do research". When the same people are like "there's two sides to every story". So how are you supposed to buy it when your not suppsed to believe it?


only 59cms with a 73' seat angle?

jerk

[hansolo758]

I'm off base here but I sense the thread might be starting to go down a path that it shouldn't. Let's review what we know....

1. The OP, by virtue of his experiences at a second shop, felt he wasn't given good service at the first one.

2. To his credit, he didn't name the first shop (someone else did) but did point out it was an authorized Serotta dealer. He HAD to do this so that we would know he got the modicum of a Serotta-approved fitting.

2. He is young (certainly in comparison with me -- he could be my son) and fairly new to road cycling. He's asking us for help as to what to do. This IS a reasonable place to ask for help.

3. He feels the first shop sold him a frame that he shouldn't have been sold.

4. He feels the second shop may not have handled his order for a new frame as well as they could have.

I would suggest the best responses to him have been:

A. We forumites can't know the whole story, so please, DO talk to the second shop and Serotta about your order -- thankfully, it hasnt been processed and there is time to fix things.

B. Don't settle for something you don't feel completely comfortable with.

C. Serotta cares about its reputation and its customer service and will make things right whenever it can.

D. Talk to the first shop in a nonconfrontational manner about why there was a difference of opinion between it and the second about what size bike you needed. It can't hurt to hear the reasons why it sold you the BMC and might help overcome your feeing they didn't do right by you. OTOH, not talking to them about it will just make you stew about it.

E. If you're still not happy with the first shop after this, let Serotta know -- because of "C."

F. There is no such thing as "perfect" bike fit the first time you have a fitting done even at a reputable shop by an experienced fitter. A fitting can put you in the ballpark, perhaps even very, very close to what you need. However, you will need to refine your position yourself as you ride more and get experience as to what works for you. There are all kinds of comments here on the forum about the funny positions even pro cyclists have on their bikes. Why should it be any different for most of us? Going through a formal fitting is nonetheless worth it because you can learn what the elements of proper fitting are.

Everything else is peripheral.

[RPS]

What many are saying here is that there is not enough information to help you decide whether a frame with a 65.5 cm top tube is right for you or not. As an example, unless I missed something no one here knows if you are riding your bike with an 8-cm stem and your saddle shoved all the way forward on a zero-offset seat post. We can assume that your LBS in Florida would never do that, but who knows what you are actually riding? You are not going to get an answer here IMHO.

On the surface a 65.5 cm TT appears long compared to standard production bikes (most have TT around 60 cm for frames in your size range); but then that’s the benefit of a custom if you need one – which may be your case. Only you can decide if you have body proportions that are that far from normal (i.e. – average for men your height).


P.S. -- The longest standard top tube I found is on a 66 cm size Calfee which has a top tube of 63.3 cm. And although that’s a very big bike, the difference in effective top tube length is not that much due to differences in seat tube angles. Just food for thought.

[Fixed]

I went to a fla shop and they had a 54 cm cos they had one they put me on it... and said that 'll work fine ..turns out it was a salesman not the fitter he was off that day . i said bro i always ride 57 's he said it's a compact it'll work . it was the first year that the Fierte was out I spent $2100 on it I had always wanted a serotta .. I think I'll fit my self in the future ..Caveat emptor I learned that, that day

cheers

[Bruce K]

Just to put another slight twist into this, how long has kbainter owned the BMC?

If it was his first "serious" road bike, could his fit parameters have changed over a year or two as he has become accustomed to riding in this position? I know the difference seems like a lot, but could some of this be attributed to greater flexibility and comfort in the "correct" riding position?

It may be that what was decided in FL was correct at the time and now things are different.

I am much more concerned about the following:

1. The frame on order doesn't seem to come close to what he wanted his frame to be

2. He has no good explanation why this is the case.

3. He did not sign off on the final design

4. He was promised delivery dates that have not been anywhere near met and the reason for that seems to be a delay between final fit and a "signed-off" order arriving at Serotta.

These are all shop #2 issues and CAN be dealt with here and now. The shop #1 issues (if there really is an issue) are in the past and since he is no longer in FL, almost irrelevant.

Maybe I missed it, but he was happy with the BMC until the new fitting, wasn't he?

I think there are things to be done to "rescue" this build. But they need to be done now.

Good luck.

BK

[3chordwonder]

Let me get this straight -

First shop is in the past and irrelevant now. Let's concentrate on the current shop he's dealing with:

They:

1. Got the date of the fitting wrong and had him reschedule. That's annoying but I guess it happens often.

1. Knew he needed new properly fitting shoes for his fitting, told him not to buy any before his fitting, and promised they would have shoes in his size in stock when he comes in for the fitting. They don't deliver. Pretty annoying there and then. If he had not relied on their promises he'd have bought some properly fitting shoes in the meantime and had them ready.

3. He wanted a plain Ti frame with level top tube. They upsell him an Ottrot by telling him it'll be so much better. Then after the build is ordered, they tell him it will have a sloping tube after all because an Ottrot can't be made in level top tube in his size. At this point he's spending more but no longer getting his preferred colour scheme or geometry but still willing to roll with it and put up with all the BS.

4. He checks progress and finds out the dealer didn't even lodge the order with Serotta for weeks and his build will not be ready by the time he specified it would have to be for him to order the bike in the first place.

5. On top of that, some of you feel the geo of bike he was fitted to is insane, thereby implying he was incompetently fitted.

But somehow a lot of people responding here turn all that into the OP's fault?

Man, tough crowd. I don't see what the OP's crime was other than inexperience and trusting a Serotta dealer to size him up for a bike and deliver it in the timeframe promised.

[swoop]

i simply pray he calls kellogg. its the only way i can go to bed knowing he'll get an all ti frame with a level top tube that will fit him like its supposed to without having to deal with a guy in a shop having a bad day.

man.. buying a bike is isn't easy. the stakes seem so high.....
all ti fames can be lovely.

[michael white]

this is true
know your contact points, and fit yourself

or call kellogg

[Chad Engle]

I can't believe how those with tons of experience expect everyone to have the same amount or they shouldn't buy a bike. That stuff spills over into every thread like this.

So folks have to ride a bike for 20 years before they can expect a custom bike to fit??? :crap: :crap: :crap:

I'm down with "buyer beware" but when I bought my bike I talked with the lbs for quite a while. I thought I knew enough to pull the trigger. Luckily it turned out ok. I certainly can't take credit for that, I had a great LBS.

[Fixed]

bro it's a fitness thing if like me your off the bike for a while and jump back on ..everything is screwed up ...i know that cos I've been doin this all my life or most of it ..
if your just startin out young and strong ..you say this is great a year latter bro my bars are to high then they need to be longer oh yeah that saddle isn't high enough my bike flexes ..years go on and your an old cat you might be back where you started but still happy to be on the bike ..that's what counts imho
cheers

[swoop]

butch.. too funny. me too.. i back off for a few days or a week and get on the bike and i feel like someone swapped set-ups on me (did someone lower my saddle and move my cleats?). i often pull out the tape measure to make sure...i think its part of getting old. its like muscle memory but its muscle alzhiemers....
(talk about needing to stretch every day no matter what when your over 40)

[kbainter]

Just to put another slight twist into this, how long has kbainter owned the BMC?

If it was his first "serious" road bike, could his fit parameters have changed over a year or two as he has become accustomed to riding in this position? I know the difference seems like a lot, but could some of this be attributed to greater flexibility and comfort in the "correct" riding position?

It may be that what was decided in FL was correct at the time and now things are different.

I am much more concerned about the following:

1. The frame on order doesn't seem to come close to what he wanted his frame to be

2. He has no good explanation why this is the case.

3. He did not sign off on the final design

4. He was promised delivery dates that have not been anywhere near met and the reason for that seems to be a delay between final fit and a "signed-off" order arriving at Serotta.

These are all shop #2 issues and CAN be dealt with here and now. The shop #1 issues (if there really is an issue) are in the past and since he is no longer in FL, almost irrelevant.

Maybe I missed it, but he was happy with the BMC until the new fitting, wasn't he?

I think there are things to be done to "rescue" this build. But they need to be done now.

Good luck.

BK

Okay, update... I went back to shop #2 to get another fit by another fitter at the same shop. They admittely dropped the ball big time on the whole bike order for this upcoming event. They at least wanted to try to fit out a demo bike to me best they could for this upcoming event. So I went there and they wanted to refit me just to make sure everything that the other fitter measured was true to form. Now different fitters get different measurements, I know that, and I expected that. They were off of each other 1.5 cm's in TT length. Everything else was the same. This fitter wanted to put me into a more comfortable position now and gave me some room to grow, rather than growing into the lengthier one right away. So this bike shop has admitted its faults on everything and has now done everything they could to get me a nice ride for this upcoming event. By them admitting they dropped the ball and that they wanted to do everything they could to make it up to me, I am willing to resume my order w/ them. I even upgraded to a meivici now that I had some more time to see the two and investigate the differences. Now w/ the first fitter. They were absolutly off, no questions asked. No where close where they to being in my "fit window". I had this BMC only 6 months (rode it only 4 months because of the horribly indiana weather) before I went to get refit for it. The reason I went in for a refit was because I was having upper body pain and just wasn't comfortable on the bike. My first bike was so improperly fit that I had no idea how to expect a bike to feel that should be fit well. So I dealt with it for a while. So anyway, story is pretty much done (lets pray it is anyway). But as suggested, I will at least mention to serotta about the first shop just incase they ever hear anything again in the future.

[Bruce K]

Congrats on getting this sorted out in an orderly fashion.

As a new Meivici owner I can tell you that you will be pleasantly surprised at just how nice a ride this machine is.

Enjoy it. THIS ONE will be worth the wait.

BK

[JohnS]

Gee, a Meivici at 25. Nothing to look forward to for the rest of your life... :)