How do I gain confidence in my cycling and improve?

[Sandy]

On June 23, I decided to lose weight, become a better climber, and simply improve as a cyclist. In the 9 weeks since then, I have lost 28 pounds and have gone from 225 to 197 today. I can certainly climb better, so I see some improvement already. I now must focus even more on pedal stroke improvement, leg strength gain, core strength....

I know that I need to push more and ride with faster riders. I tend to do slower group rides, as I am comfortable with the speed, I like the cyclists, and I really have not gained the confidence with riding with faster people. Hence, my cycling gains are limited thus far. I do the rides, but I don't do them at the intensity level of many.

So how do I gain confidence and improve? Just go out with faster cylists and try harder and stay with them as long as I can? Eventually I will see improvement and then I will gain confidence. Or would that just add to the lack of confidence that I have? If I am riding with cyclists who are faster than me, or appear faster, I often work hard for a bit, and then just give up, as I don't have the proper confidence in my cycling,

Yesterday, in a hot ride, I was passed by cyclists who had ridden a much longer distance than I had, in about the same time. I was riding with a friend. I was very tired, but noticed that everyone seemed that way, probably becuse of the heat. So I decided to try to catch up and try to keep up with the faster cyslists, at least for just a little bit. Turns out that they were not very diffficult to keep up with. I was surprised that they did not drop me. But if they did, I would have probably just given up trying as I just don't have the confidence and focus of many. How do you gain that??

THANKS FOR ANY INPUT, KIND SOULS THAT FREQUENT THIS PLACE!!


Sandy

[Larry]

225 to 197 !!!!!!

Way to go Sandy! Great self-discipline.

Spin classes or add interval training.

[Ray]

So how do I gain confidence and improve? Just go out with faster cylists and try harder and stay with them as long as I can? Eventually I will see improvement and then I will gain confidence. Or would that just add to the lack of confidence that I have? If I am riding with cyclists who are faster than me, or appear faster, I often work hard for a bit, and then just give up, as I don't have the proper confidence in my cycling,
It depends on what you're after and the price you're willing to pay. I know from experience that when I ride with faster folks, I make more of an effort to ride faster to stay with them. And that pays off in terms of being able to ride faster for longer. Sometimes I'd get dropped, but the more I rode at this speed, the longer I'd be able to hang and sometimes I'd really surprise myself and bust through some pain threshold and ride hard with them the whole time, instead of constantly trying to figure out how to hang in there. As others have said time and time again - you have to train fast to ride fast. Or, if you're not specifically training, you have to ride fast more often to get faster.

But the price is that this kind of riding HURTS. It really forces you to push yourself and that can turn into a grind if you're not really careful to take plenty of easy days to recover both physically and mentally. I personally go through short periods where I really enjoy pushing hard, but those are always followed by periods of thinking, 'why am I killing myself to ride that little bit faster - I'm riding with a slightly faster group, but the dynamics of where I fit in that group are the same. And if I'm working that hard, I'm not enjoying the social aspects of the ride as much.' So most of the time I don't push myself hard enough to get faster because I just don't care and enjoy a slightly more relaxed pace 8 times out of 10.

Your goals seem to differ. From seeing your posts over the years, you seem to yo-yo between really wanting to get 'better' (which you equate with faster), working hard at it, seeing some results, still getting dropped by some folks on the hills, and ultimately getting discouraged because you're never quite as fast as you want to be, and then going through periods where you bag the sport almost completely for awhile. If you really want to maximize your speed, you have to ride hard a lot, with periods of recovery - someone like Too Tall can surely tailor a program for you to get close to your full potential. But, based on your experience, ask yourself if that's really what you want out of riding. If it is, go crazy, but be smart about it (again, Too Tall or other coach would help). Your incredible weight loss is testament to what you CAN do, the question is whether you're enjoying it enough to keep at it or whether your goals are so high that you'll get discouraged again and lose those gains.

If riding too hard too much takes the fun out of the sport, though, or if you get too discouraged by whatever your limits are, another approach is to change your goals a bit, back-off, and learn to enjoy the slightly slower groups who you can socialize with during the rides. That's what works for me. Hell, at my absolute fastest, I never averaged much above 17-18 mph in the hilly area I live. At a MUCH more relaxed level of effort, I average around 15-16. I have a lot more fun at that speed and just finish a given ride a little slower. It's not like I was setting the world on fire at my fastest, so I stopped pushing myself that hard to try to get there and my rides tend to be more fun now. Qualitatively, I like slightly slower rides better, with just an occasional ride where I feel frisky and go hard for most of the ride. You don't seem to want to take that approach, so go for the higher performance. Just understand the costs and trade-offs.

As alway, have fun out there!

-Ray

[cs124]

Perhaps you could share your goals with a riding buddy. That way they might encourage you to push that little bit harder when you would otherwise give up.

[Mud]

Group rides were never our thing so maybe part of this will not interest you. We just found that everyone wants to race at some point, or do paceline or some such craziness considering the group was a mixed bag. Too much skin left on the pavement and we did not want any of it to be ours. We even stop to take a drink so no one would want us anyway.

We are slow by ourselves but can keep up with the Navigators when they slow a little to talk with us and are willing to ride at the 17-18 mph you mentioned. So we have some confidence and you should too.

But what we have found is that we can climb. We always spend part of a ride trying to climb the biggest hills in the best way. What I mean is gearing, tires, sitting , standing, etc etc. How do we get up the long grades and still have to face a 16% section and not blow up?

I know that I am a little older than you, and have been a fair athlete. In those sports I played well I never tried to pretend I was better at something than I was, I just worked harder at those things that would help me. As they improved my confidence in other areas improved and I got better.

It looks like it stopped raining so I will get the bikes ready to go. Keep the faith. :beer:

[Bart001]

I find it counter-productive to my enjoyment to measure success entirely by my average speed, or whether other people can ride faster.

This has been my first season back into cycling after a long lay-off, and for most of the season I just focused on actually getting on the bike (and not wimping out at 7am on Sunday) and on general fitness all week. (I'm down to 180 lbs from a max of 207.) It sounds like you've done all that too. Congrats!

My plan, and feel free to adopt any of it that works for you, is this fall to pick a cycling goal for 2008. For me it might be the Pan Mass, or a Team in Training century. I've done a Team in Training century before, so to really push myself I should pick Pan Mass. Either way, I'll have a goal all fall and winter to motivate my diet and exercise, and a goal to get me back on the bike early in the spring (when it's still cold and dark here in New England).

I also recognized that I lack some basic skills, so I'm getting some coaching which I believe will help all of that. Being more efficient on the bike will make it more fun for me.

[Sandy]

225 to 197 !!!!!!

Way to go Sandy! Great self-discipline.

Spin classes or add interval training.

Thanks!

A few years back, I did spin classes and really liked them. I no longer belong to a club. I am going to join one this winter and do some classes again. Great cardio workout and can build endurance and strength, I believe, unlike what some cyclists think.


Spinning but going nowhere,

Spin Sandy

[Climb01742]

a few thoughts, sandy:

1. athletic progress is never linear. you'll have good days and bad. if the trend over time is positive, let the occasional bad day slide. everyone has 'em.

2. you're doing two tough things at once: trying to get stronger and trying to get skinnier. those actually can work against each other, or at least make each other more challenging. look at jan every spring. you need calories to train and build muscle. this dual set of goals will also contribute to good days and bad. again, let the bad days slide. once you get to your target weight, and can add calories to maintain, rather than lose, weight, your strength gains should improve.

3. you are subjectively hard on yourself. take as much subjectivity out of your training as possible. a power meter does that. a coach does that. i think you need someone or thing other than you judging you. you're hard on yourself, which you need -- we all do -- but i sometimes think you're too hard on yourself. an objective measure would help with your confidence.

4. intervals. hard, butt-kicking intervals.

5. get TT to give you a training program, do it religiously for 6 months and you WILL get better. give it time, give it your all, and you will progress. faith, baby, faith...and hard work. :D

[Sandy]

Just wonderful responses thus far. I am getting ready to go on a "Bagel Run" ride with Smiley. Hope that he takes an easy route to the bagel shop, as I am tired and sleepy.

I will respond later to the aforementioned superb responses. Thanks.


Sandy

[Len J]

Man, you are an inspiration.......30+ lbs weight loss.....motivated to get better.....paying attention, honestly to your development needs......Truly inspirationsl.

Once every week or 2, organize a ride with Fly, TooTall & The queen.......let them know you want to be pushed, and how. Tell them you want to build confidence in a group at speed.

They are all great people and would get you where you want to be with class, style and sensitivity.

Len

BTW...notice how easily I voluneteer other people :bike:

[KJMUNC]

Sandy, congrats on the weight loss and finding a new passion. I can empathize with your situation, as I went through almost the exact same weight loss several years back as I was getting serious about cycling and found myself asking similar questions.

Climb has some great advice....set goals, post them/tell others about them (training partners, spouse, whomever), hit intervals hard and push yourself with groups who are faster than you. Get a fixed gear bike or rollers for the off season, as both will help your stroke. Do LOTS of slow, steady miles this winter to build the base.

Everyone is different, but when I started in the 190lb range, I picked a couple of group rides that I knew were challenging and just kept showing up until I could hang without getting dropped. It gave me a good measure of my progress, but you also have to check your pride each week when they ride away from you. Eventually you'll get better/faster/stronger, it just takes time and if there are decent folks in the group they'll notice your improvement and you may find folks on a similar development path. It took me 18mo of focused riding and training to hit my target weight of 170, but I found a core group of similar riders and we pushed each other towards our goals. Now I'm back to 200lbs and just enjoy getting out when I can :o

Keep up the great work and best of luck!

[sc53]

Sandy, the weight loss is HUGE! Congratulate yourself on that and try to keep going to your goal (I think it is 185?) Why worry if some people or even most people are faster, stronger, thinner, better-looking, or have more endurance or hair than you do? SO WHAT? :confused:
We're all doing this to enjoy ourselves in whatever way we like! There is no "right" or "better" way to be a cyclist. I like Palincss's pace, tourist mentality, ability to enjoy the surroundings and comraderie, and willingness to stop anytime anywhere for a rest, a closer look at a roadside historical sign, a pretty view, a vineyard--whatever! So that's why his rides are so suited to me. If you want to ride with more of a race mentality, you'll have to pick other rides and obviously follow a coaching/training regimen that requires a lot of work and effort and the possiblity of injury and fatigue.
If I were you, I'd enjoy the weight loss and stop beating myself up about the abilities of other people. You're doing great already!

[CNY rider]

Sandy, I think Ray may have given some of the "toughest" advice on here but only a real friend can say the truth!

You've had real problems getting discouraged in the past, and then dropping cycling for months at a time and getting out of shape.

Is there another way for you to continue to enjoy cycling while staying satisfied with your status as a solid, albeit not that fast, recreational rider?

[stevep]

ride for fun sandy.
youll get better automatically.
forget the rest.

kudos on the weight control. thats key.

dont start "training"..youll take the fun out of it.

[Larry]

Sandy,

You are an inspiration to others.
For most of us over 50 crowd, speed is not a big issue.
Having fun and developing friendships in the sport really
is the goal, at least for me.
But.....it sounds like you are no longer slow, steady Sandy.

JUST DO IT !!!!!

[swoop]

ride for fun sandy.
youll get better automatically.
forget the rest.

kudos on the weight control. thats key.

dont start "training"..youll take the fun out of it.


trust stevep.

[Fixed]

trust stevep.




keep doin what your doin bro
just have fun the rest will come ...speed play

(not the peds)

cheers

[Ti Designs]

trust stevep.

There are so many things wrong with that statement, I don't know where to start...


Sandy,

This thread brings up a number of issues, many of which need to be addressed as individual items, not to be combined. When you say "I want to get faster" many responses come up, "faster isn't fun" and "do intervals" are always on that list. We haven't gone for a ride [yet] but I'm guessing you're not at the point of ding intervals yet, and anyone who says that being fast isn't fun probably isn't fast - being slow when you want to go fast sucks...

Form and pedal stroke come first. If you don't have them, you don't have the basis to get faster. Getting stronger and wasting more energy is a young man's game, and they soon learn there's a better way (by soon I mean 5 seasons or so). At this point in the game you need to learn every trick in the book to get down the road on the least energy spent. Pedal stroke and form will get the most out of your energy spent, learning pack riding skills and tactics will lighten your load and allow you to hang with faster riders.

At this point someone always comes back with "he's not a racer, what's all this about tactics?" News flash: get 4 guys together on racing bikes, wearing lycra and it's a race. Sure, there's no network coverage, no prize money, no podium girls and probably less drug use, but it's still a race. You have one of two scenarios to pick from, learn how to sit in so you can hang with faster riders, or sit up and wave goodbye. If you have the skills, it's up to you. Put in the effort and feel the reward - there's nothing like finishing a ride with the fast group. If you don't have the skills... It's the skills and technique that gets you there, not brute force or training intensity (there needs to be training intensity, and I push intervals at the right time). I bring a woman I coach to the Thursday night rides every other week, and put her in a group where she's in well over her head. She sits in well, she takes short, intense pulls, she positions herself so she hits the bottom of the two big hills rested, she rides smarter than the guys, and always finishes with the front group. It's the hardest ride she does, but also the most rewarding.

Don't trust SteveP, ever. But if you ever have a chance to do one of his north shore rides, watch SteveP. Steve is more than happy to let other riders hurt themselves to tow him up the road. He's never far from the front, but doing far less work than the kids on the ride (and he's probably got them paying him for the harder workout). There's no doubt that he loves his weekend group rides.

[rwsaunders]

Perhaps you could share your goals with a riding buddy. That way they might encourage you to push that little bit harder when you would otherwise give up.

+1 on the riding buddy. Also, the weight loss is more important than your speed. Enjoy the scenery and the time on the bike and be thankful that you're not in a wheelchair.

[93legendti]

On June 23, I decided to lose weight, become a better climber, and simply improve as a cyclist. In the 9 weeks since then, I have lost 28 pounds and have gone from 225 to 197 today. I can certainly climb better, so I see some improvement already. I now must focus even more on pedal stroke improvement, leg strength gain, core strength....

I know that I need to push more and ride with faster riders. I tend to do slower group rides, as I am comfortable with the speed, I like the cyclists, and I really have not gained the confidence with riding with faster people. Hence, my cycling gains are limited thus far. I do the rides, but I don't do them at the intensity level of many.

So how do I gain confidence and improve? Just go out with faster cylists and try harder and stay with them as long as I can? Eventually I will see improvement and then I will gain confidence. Or would that just add to the lack of confidence that I have? If I am riding with cyclists who are faster than me, or appear faster, I often work hard for a bit, and then just give up, as I don't have the proper confidence in my cycling,

Yesterday, in a hot ride, I was passed by cyclists who had ridden a much longer distance than I had, in about the same time. I was riding with a friend. I was very tired, but noticed that everyone seemed that way, probably becuse of the heat. So I decided to try to catch up and try to keep up with the faster cyslists, at least for just a little bit. Turns out that they were not very diffficult to keep up with. I was surprised that they did not drop me. But if they did, I would have probably just given up trying as I just don't have the confidence and focus of many. How do you gain that??

THANKS FOR ANY INPUT, KIND SOULS THAT FREQUENT THIS PLACE!!


Sandy
Sandy, read these posts from Ti Designs:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=381038&postcount=18
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=168298&postcount=2
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=169989&postcount=19
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=63159&postcount=14
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=270962&postcount=13
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=176353&postcount=30
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=134484&postcount=31
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=134606&postcount=33
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=134646&postcount=36
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=59347&postcount=10
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=59468&postcount=16

TiD knows training.

[Ray]

When you say "I want to get faster" many responses come up, "faster isn't fun" ...

At this point someone always comes back with "he's not a racer, what's all this about tactics?" News flash: get 4 guys together on racing bikes, wearing lycra and it's a race.
Nobody said fast isn't fun. But sometimes putting too much emphasis on faster is not fun. Key difference. Feeling efficient and light on the bike always feels better to me and always feels faster, regardless of what the numbers say. The more I ride, the more of these rides I seem to have. But sometimes the numbers lie - I've had rides where I felt great that weren't fast and rides where I felt like garbage but came in very fast (all of this is in my limited universe of relative speed). Feeling good and riding hard, but right at the edge of staying within yourself is FUN.

Also, not true that four guys together on racing bikes wearing lycra always equals a race. I've certainly been in plenty of those rides that DO turn into a race, but also plenty that don't. Sometimes ONE of the guys tries to race, but if the other three don't go along, he'll find himself doing a time trial. There are plenty of social rides to go on or rides where one or two hills turn into mini-races, but the great bulk of the ride is at a conversational pace. Guys with a racing background might not enjoy these rides or see the point and that's fine. But plenty of folks do and that's cool too.

I agree that feeling good on the bike and developing a smooth and efficient pedal stroke is key to enjoying riding, but once you get fairly smooth and efficient, you can choose to train to get faster or enjoy the relative efficiency at a less demanding pace.

-Ray

[Ti Designs]

Also, not true that four guys together on racing bikes wearing lycra always equals a race. I've certainly been in plenty of those rides that DO turn into a race, but also plenty that don't. Sometimes ONE of the guys tries to race, but if the other three don't go along, he'll find himself doing a time trial. There are plenty of social rides to go on or rides where one or two hills turn into mini-races, but the great bulk of the ride is at a conversational pace. Guys with a racing background might not enjoy these rides or see the point and that's fine. But plenty of folks do and that's cool too.


Ray,

I have two requests: First, please don't mistake the guys with racing backgrounds with the guys who have no self control. I've told the riders I coach over and over again that the really fast guys spend a lot of their time going 16 MPH, and then there are the 35 MPH segments... The second request is that you send some of the people you ride with down to the Boston area. I've wanted an active rest day for the Friday morning ride for the longest time. In the spring my riders are racing three times over the weekend, I need them rested and ready, which means on the bike Friday, but no long hard efforts. New riders just don't have that kind of self control, so 10 minutes after they start they're all in the big chainring.

[Tom]

And they are both right.

There are two kinds of fast. The fast that comes with a lot of practice, and the fast that comes with a lot of work.

There's fast that comes with practice. I was a solidly mediocre distance runner and am a solidly mediocre cyclist but the more I ride just screwing around the faster I get, and it was the same with running. The key is 'the more I ride'. You take in a lot of information about technique and position and you think about it on the bike and you try it out and some of it works really well, so you practice that feeling and you get lighter and more efficient and you start moving along pretty good. Which is fine for the ability to lope along covering ground pretty fast. You've become a sled dog. You can go forever fairly quickly.

Then there's the fast that comes with work. Now you don't lope along most of the time, you drop it back. The rest of the time you go absolutely nuts like a greyhound chasing that goddamn mechanical rabbit. The way I think of it is that I'm pushing my maximum up. My cruising pace is a given percentage of my max so if my max is bigger, then my cruise is faster. The key here is, again, don't blow your form for short term gain because you can't translate that to regular riding. High speed is done at the same form you go normal speed only faster.

It's all about what you want. Don't turn it into work if you're not inclined that way. I've bagged out of USCF racing because I realized I lack talent and I surely don't have the nerve but also bike riding for me is play and racing isn't play, at least for me. The funny thing is my mileage is way up this year and I've been noticing stuff outside the white lines.

[Ray]

Ray,

I have two requests: First, please don't mistake the guys with racing backgrounds with the guys who have no self control. I've told the riders I coach over and over again that the really fast guys spend a lot of their time going 16 MPH, and then there are the 35 MPH segments... The second request is that you send some of the people you ride with down to the Boston area. I've wanted an active rest day for the Friday morning ride for the longest time. In the spring my riders are racing three times over the weekend, I need them rested and ready, which means on the bike Friday, but no long hard efforts. New riders just don't have that kind of self control, so 10 minutes after they start they're all in the big chainring.
Fair enough - I know racers can go REALLY slow on recovery days. I've caught up to groups of 'em a couple of times from pretty far back when I thought I was going pretty easy. They were probably doing 12-13 mph if that. They guys I'm talking about riding with are the guys in their 40s who may have toyed with getting fast at one point or another and, like me, decided it wasn't that important. We can cruise around at about 15-16 mph for a long time. Punch it occasionally on the shorter hills, but generally not terribly hard, and take it pretty easy on the rollers and flats (which also helps with being able to punch it on the hills). I don't know if they wanna go up to Boston, though :cool:

Funny thing about those "without control". I belong to two clubs. One is an old established club, pretty small, with folks that have been members a long time. The other is only a few years old, is popular as hell, and has just about wiped the older club off the local map. I tend to do "B" rides with both. In both, the B rides are advertised as 14-16 mph. This is a pretty hilly area, so that's not quite as slow as it sounds, but it's still a very casual pace. In the older club, the B rides usually come in that range, closer to the bottom in the winter and early spring, closer to the top later in the season. Very non-competitive, except on the occasional hill. If a couple guys are jumpy and want to ride ahead, the rest tend to let 'em go. The newer club is full of newer riders who are competitive as all get-out. The B rides almost never come in below 17.5 and often come in over 18. I've survived a few of those, but hate 'em. They're like disorganized races, people fighting for position instead of working together, going waaay to hard in the wrong places and dying on the hills, so there's always a big wait to regroup. Such poor riding skills that there are almost always multiple crashes, which is just stupid on these kinds of rides. The 'A' riders are skilled and organized but way too fast for me. The 'C' riders are social and relaxed but too slow for even me to enjoy (although I've lead a couple of their rides on my fixie and had fun - nicer folks down there). The B+, Super Bees, B, and B- groupls are just slightly different levels of insanity and carnage though. This newer, bigger club has really upped the enthusiasm for riding in this area and I gotta give 'em props, but I almost never ride with 'em anymore. The old club doesn't have much life to it, but the rides are a lot more fun, imho.

As for me, the "35 mph segments" only happen going notably downhill. I've jumped onto the back of pacelines doing about 28-30 and could only hold the wheel for about 30 seconds to a minute before being happily spit out the back.

-Ray

[stevep]

why would anyone want to ride with someone on a slow recovery day?
counterproductive, no?
surely not a group activity...maybe one other rider...
makes no sense if you think about it.

[Ray]

why would anyone want to ride with someone on a slow recovery day?
counterproductive, no?
surely not a group activity...maybe one other rider...
makes no sense if you think about it.
As I said, I've seen entire local race teams out together on recovery days, going almost excruciatingly slow. They were just talking, telling war stories, laughing a lot. Just hanging out, but on bikes instead of at the bar. Why not?

-Ray

[Fixed]

bro it's what you want ,if you want to ride like a cat 3-up you got to work take risk and want to win .. but i 've been thinkin lately that 's not to good for you if your are over weight or over a certain age.(since i seem to be looking at that) i hate it when bros hurt themselvs trying to get faster when they really only wanted was to get stronger health..imho not everybody wants or needs to be a bike racer you can get strong .fit ,be fast, healthy and have fun ,,just ride you bike and smile ..
cheers

[swoop]

bro it's what you want ,if you want to ride like a cat 3-up you got to work take risk and want to win .. but i 've been thinkin lately that 's not to good for you if your are over weight or over a certain age.(since i seem to be looking at that) i hate it when bros hurt themselvs trying to get faster when they really only wanted was to get stronger health..imho not everybody wants or needs to be a bike racer you can get strong .fit , healthy and have fun just ride you bike and smile ..
cheers


butch see's that there's more going on here than meets the eye. listen to butch.

[DarrenCT]

whatsup with all this racing stuff?

i just ride my bikes and have fun. :beer:

[ti_boi]

I'm just a guy that likes to feel the sunshine in his face and the breeze at his back...atm0

P.S. Major kudos on the weight drop Sandy...that is very, very impressive. Kind of like moving from a Schwinn Traveler to a Ti Frame :cool:

[Ti Designs]

why would anyone want to ride with someone on a slow recovery day?
counterproductive, no?

It's a social thing. We put the bike in a small gear and pedal along while talking. There do seem to be a lot of coffee stops. In Lexington center there's both Starbucks and Peet's on the same block, I've been on a ride that stopped at both. If the only time you spend with someone is at speed and hurting you get a different view of them, taking the edge off exposes a different side.

whatsup with all this racing stuff?

Most of the riders I coach don't race, but when I coach it's based on racing. There's no down side to understanding racing, even if you don't want to do it yourself. Fast group rides are fun, it gives you a real perspective on watching the pros, and knowledge doesn't weigh anything. There was a time I would coach racers to race and riders just to ride, then I noticed that the racers could always have fun on the bike while the non-racers were all nervous about rideing with the fast crew.

[stevep]

whatsup with all this racing stuff?

i just ride my bikes and have fun. :beer:

i thk youre on to something here darren.
this morphed from sandy looking to to add a few mphs to his legs into some race thread.
racing and training to race interferes with riding for pleasure.
...according to my good friend jg the captain...and hes very right.

like:
"i cant go hard today, i gotta go easy"
or " i gotta go hard today, i cant go easy"
or " i cant go for a long ride today, i have a race in 2 days and i dont wanna fry my legs"
fill in yr own.

[J.Greene]

like:
"i cant go hard today, i gotta go easy"
or " i gotta go hard today, i cant go easy"
or " i cant go for a long ride today, i have a race in 2 days and i dont wanna fry my legs"
fill in yr own.

you missed the one my slow arse said today in the Palatka RR.....

I need to go hard, but I can't even go!

When I see my my kids ride (all under 8) I remember what it is all about. All rides should make us smile like that.


JG

[Sandy]

It depends on what you're after and the price you're willing to pay. I know from experience that when I ride with faster folks, I make more of an effort to ride faster to stay with them. And that pays off in terms of being able to ride faster for longer. Sometimes I'd get dropped, but the more I rode at this speed, the longer I'd be able to hang and sometimes I'd really surprise myself and bust through some pain threshold and ride hard with them the whole time, instead of constantly trying to figure out how to hang in there. As others have said time and time again - you have to train fast to ride fast. Or, if you're not specifically training, you have to ride fast more often to get faster.

But the price is that this kind of riding HURTS. It really forces you to push yourself and that can turn into a grind if you're not really careful to take plenty of easy days to recover both physically and mentally. I personally go through short periods where I really enjoy pushing hard, but those are always followed by periods of thinking, 'why am I killing myself to ride that little bit faster - I'm riding with a slightly faster group, but the dynamics of where I fit in that group are the same. And if I'm working that hard, I'm not enjoying the social aspects of the ride as much.' So most of the time I don't push myself hard enough to get faster because I just don't care and enjoy a slightly more relaxed pace 8 times out of 10.

Your goals seem to differ. From seeing your posts over the years, you seem to yo-yo between really wanting to get 'better' (which you equate with faster), working hard at it, seeing some results, still getting dropped by some folks on the hills, and ultimately getting discouraged because you're never quite as fast as you want to be, and then going through periods where you bag the sport almost completely for awhile. If you really want to maximize your speed, you have to ride hard a lot, with periods of recovery - someone like Too Tall can surely tailor a program for you to get close to your full potential. But, based on your experience, ask yourself if that's really what you want out of riding. If it is, go crazy, but be smart about it (again, Too Tall or other coach would help). Your incredible weight loss is testament to what you CAN do, the question is whether you're enjoying it enough to keep at it or whether your goals are so high that you'll get discouraged again and lose those gains.

If riding too hard too much takes the fun out of the sport, though, or if you get too discouraged by whatever your limits are, another approach is to change your goals a bit, back-off, and learn to enjoy the slightly slower groups who you can socialize with during the rides. That's what works for me. Hell, at my absolute fastest, I never averaged much above 17-18 mph in the hilly area I live. At a MUCH more relaxed level of effort, I average around 15-16. I have a lot more fun at that speed and just finish a given ride a little slower. It's not like I was setting the world on fire at my fastest, so I stopped pushing myself that hard to try to get there and my rides tend to be more fun now. Qualitatively, I like slightly slower rides better, with just an occasional ride where I feel frisky and go hard for most of the ride. You don't seem to want to take that approach, so go for the higher performance. Just understand the costs and trade-offs.

As alway, have fun out there!

-Ray

Your posts are always well thought out, with wonderful content, explained so clearly, with a great deal of content, and superb insight. Wonderful post!!

I should make one comment first- The most important reason that I have stopped cycling in the past or cut way back on it is that I have had an ongoing problem with fatigue/lack of energy/depression.

Balance is what you are projecting and that is very wise indeed. I enjoy very much the act of cycling and I also enjoy the social aspects- the camaraderie that exists as cyclists share rides. interacting, and looking out for one another. In my experience, as the group ride gets faster, camaraderie tends to lessen considerably.

I realize that I am no youngster (67 in December), but I know (didn't before) that even at my age, I can improve- climbing, pedal stroke (a key that needs improvement), techniques in group riding, speed,.... I also realize that it is necessary to push and hurt soem in order to gain significantly. I am not sure as to how much effort I want to put into this improvement, as, the most important issue to me is fun. I will strive to get better, but I will always put fun and fellow cyclists first.

I hope that Ti Designs is willing to work with me. In some ways, I feel that I would be a waste of time for him,as I am an older cyclist and the magnitude of improvement will be a function of my age and its accompanying limitations. I am not the finest cyclist to begin with.

Thanks for your wonderful insight. You have it nailed.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Perhaps you could share your goals with a riding buddy. That way they might encourage you to push that little bit harder when you would otherwise give up.


Another great idea. I have done some rides with Smiley recently and he knows just how hard to push me. I did a couple of great rides with him, where I was pushing to keep close to him as we were climing hills. Very productive rides, and fun.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I find it counter-productive to my enjoyment to measure success entirely by my average speed, or whether other people can ride faster.

This has been my first season back into cycling after a long lay-off, and for most of the season I just focused on actually getting on the bike (and not wimping out at 7am on Sunday) and on general fitness all week. (I'm down to 180 lbs from a max of 207.) It sounds like you've done all that too. Congrats!

My plan, and feel free to adopt any of it that works for you, is this fall to pick a cycling goal for 2008. For me it might be the Pan Mass, or a Team in Training century. I've done a Team in Training century before, so to really push myself I should pick Pan Mass. Either way, I'll have a goal all fall and winter to motivate my diet and exercise, and a goal to get me back on the bike early in the spring (when it's still cold and dark here in New England).

I also recognized that I lack some basic skills, so I'm getting some coaching which I believe will help all of that. Being more efficient on the bike will make it more fun for me.

Great idea. I must focus on realistic goals. I would love to do some metric centuries and a full century. I have never done a full oorganized century. I have other goals also.


Sandy

[Sandy]

a few thoughts, sandy:

1. athletic progress is never linear. you'll have good days and bad. if the trend over time is positive, let the occasional bad day slide. everyone has 'em.

2. you're doing two tough things at once: trying to get stronger and trying to get skinnier. those actually can work against each other, or at least make each other more challenging. look at jan every spring. you need calories to train and build muscle. this dual set of goals will also contribute to good days and bad. again, let the bad days slide. once you get to your target weight, and can add calories to maintain, rather than lose, weight, your strength gains should improve.

3. you are subjectively hard on yourself. take as much subjectivity out of your training as possible. a power meter does that. a coach does that. i think you need someone or thing other than you judging you. you're hard on yourself, which you need -- we all do -- but i sometimes think you're too hard on yourself. an objective measure would help with your confidence.

4. intervals. hard, butt-kicking intervals.

5. get TT to give you a training program, do it religiously for 6 months and you WILL get better. give it time, give it your all, and you will progress. faith, baby, faith...and hard work. :D

Great advice. I will reach 185 if I am not too thin at that weight. I know that I have to focus on pedal stroke, hard intervals at some time, a well thought out program, but not too structured, for if it wer, I might start to lose the fun part of cycling. I know that it will take time. I would like to improve by next June, at which time I believe there will be a Serotta get together in Ashville, NC. But I do not want to embarrass myself if I still suck.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Sandy, the weight loss is HUGE! Congratulate yourself on that and try to keep going to your goal (I think it is 185?) Why worry if some people or even most people are faster, stronger, thinner, better-looking, or have more endurance or hair than you do? SO WHAT? :confused:
We're all doing this to enjoy ourselves in whatever way we like! There is no "right" or "better" way to be a cyclist. I like Palincss's pace, tourist mentality, ability to enjoy the surroundings and comraderie, and willingness to stop anytime anywhere for a rest, a closer look at a roadside historical sign, a pretty view, a vineyard--whatever! So that's why his rides are so suited to me. If you want to ride with more of a race mentality, you'll have to pick other rides and obviously follow a coaching/training regimen that requires a lot of work and effort and the possiblity of injury and fatigue.
If I were you, I'd enjoy the weight loss and stop beating myself up about the abilities of other people. You're doing great already!

I don't get one point here. Did you say "better -looking" than me?? Really? Is there such a beast alive?? :rolleyes: :) I do want to do a Palincss ride,a dn would love to do it with you. Buthis rides are always so long, and I just don't know if I would have the endurance for one.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Sandy,

You are an inspiration to others.
For most of us over 50 crowd, speed is not a big issue.
Having fun and developing friendships in the sport really
is the goal, at least for me.
But.....it sounds like you are no longer slow, steady Sandy.

JUST DO IT !!!!!

Yep. Speed is not the big issue. "Having friends and developing friendships..." is much more important.


Still Sucks but not as much,

Sandy

[jerk]

sandy-

alot of this seems to be a self confidence thing; you seem worried that "you suck". you are an intelligent, attractive, successful and kind man and i'm saying that in sort of a manly non gay way if you catch my drift.

use cycling as a place to escape from your own insecurities...you pedal a bike because you like it, you like the cameraderie or whatever. i don't give a shi'ite why you ride but at some level it gives you pleasure and you shouldn't let your neurosis creep into this aspect of your life.

my adice bub- when riding a bike be as hedonistic, selfish and sociopathic as possible. get on a semi-structured program if you will; it'll make you faster and maybe you'll enjoy cycling more...or just go out and ride everyday at your own pace with no structure...doing that eveyday will make you fast enough to hang on to just about anyride any sane person would want to be a apart of.

in short, do the bike thing for you. not for anyone else. don't listen to anyone else. go out there and frucking punch it evey once in a while and feel strong and fit and proud.

in short- treat cycling like a drug. you can be a selfish hedonistic arsehole without hurting anyone and it'll leave you better situated mentally and improve your self esteem off the bike. best thing is the drug is good for you.

worked wonders for so many skinny dip-shi't kids who were never good at anything,

just get out there and ride. its not about technique or intervels or any magic formula. ride enough and you'll get it all figure out-trust me.

jerk

[Sandy]

+1 on the riding buddy. Also, the weight loss is more important than your speed. Enjoy the scenery and the time on the bike and be thankful that you're not in a wheelchair.

"Be thankful that you're not in a wheelchair." You surely have that correct.

I am 66, my mother, father, and sister all died from pancreatic cancer. My father and sister died before they reached 60. I have a close relative around my age who has had some major recent heart and artery problems. I can ride. I have no physical limitations of which I am aware. Nothing that limits my cycling. I am most fortunate and I am thankful that I am not in a wheelchair. I am thankful that I am even here to pester all of you in this wonderful place- the Serotta Forum.

Thanks for the great reminder. Very, very well received!!!!


Sandy

[Fixed]

bro if you ever come to tampa i'll take off work to ride with you
cheers

[fstrthnu]

"Just keep give'n er"

[swoop]

sandy-

alot of this seems to be a self confidence thing; you seem worried that "you suck". you are an intelligent, attractive, successful and kind man and i'm saying that in sort of a manly non gay way if you catch my drift.

use cycling as a place to escape from your own insecurities...you pedal a bike because you like it, you like the cameraderie or whatever. i don't give a shi'ite why you ride but at some level it gives you pleasure and you shouldn't let your neurosis creep into this aspect of your life.

my adice bub- when riding a bike be as hedonistic, selfish and sociopathic as possible. get on a semi-structured program if you will; it'll make you faster and maybe you'll enjoy cycling more...or just go out and ride everyday at your own pace with no structure...doing that eveyday will make you fast enough to hang on to just about anyride any sane person would want to be a apart of.

in short, do the bike thing for you. not for anyone else. don't listen to anyone else. go out there and frucking punch it evey once in a while and feel strong and fit and proud.

in short- treat cycling like a drug. you can be a selfish hedonistic arsehole without hurting anyone and it'll leave you better situated mentally and improve your self esteem off the bike. best thing is the drug is good for you.

worked wonders for so many skinny dip-shi't kids who were never good at anything,

just get out there and ride. its not about technique or intervels or any magic formula. ride enough and you'll get it all figure out-trust me.

jerk

the jerk is welcome to join me in my gig if he ever get's outta the bike game.

[Sandy]

sandy-

alot of this seems to be a self confidence thing; you seem worried that "you suck". you are an intelligent, attractive, successful and kind man and i'm saying that in sort of a manly non gay way if you catch my drift.

use cycling as a place to escape from your own insecurities...you pedal a bike because you like it, you like the cameraderie or whatever. i don't give a shi'ite why you ride but at some level it gives you pleasure and you shouldn't let your neurosis creep into this aspect of your life.

my adice bub- when riding a bike be as hedonistic, selfish and sociopathic as possible. get on a semi-structured program if you will; it'll make you faster and maybe you'll enjoy cycling more...or just go out and ride everyday at your own pace with no structure...doing that eveyday will make you fast enough to hang on to just about anyride any sane person would want to be a apart of.

in short, do the bike thing for you. not for anyone else. don't listen to anyone else. go out there and frucking punch it evey once in a while and feel strong and fit and proud.

in short- treat cycling like a drug. you can be a selfish hedonistic arsehole without hurting anyone and it'll leave you better situated mentally and improve your self esteem off the bike. best thing is the drug is good for you.

worked wonders for so many skinny dip-shi't kids who were never good at anything,

just get out there and ride. its not about technique or intervels or any magic formula. ride enough and you'll get it all figure out-trust me.

jerk

Thanks for your sincere and genuine advice. I do appreciate it and will remember the value in it.


Sandy

[beungood]

Come to Boston I'll bang in and you can kick my *** in the hills.

[stevep]

Thanks for your sincere and genuine advice. I do appreciate it and will remember the value in it.


Sandy

sandy,
you owe the jerk $200 for the advice,
jerks agent stevep.

dont worry, he'll get his 5%.

[jeffg]

Sandy,

I cannot give you any advice worth $0.02 much less $200, but I wish you much joy in your cycling.

Just look at how much goodwill you have on this board. That should give you all the confidence you need to reach your goals.

Congratulations on the weight loss: Your watts/kg just improved signficantly!

[keno]

I have a question, but first a little preface. You sought advice on losing weight on various occasions over the years on this forum. Now, somewhat out of the blue to me, you announce "svelt" to us all. Did you wake up one day and say to yourself something like "Now I am really going to lose weight" and you did, or was it something else? What sparked your need to take action, in other words?

While the advice in previous responses is very valuable, and I especially like "knowledge doesn't weigh anything" (and I apologize for not directly crediting its author, but guarantee I will put the phrase to use), being a reformed bettor I'll nevertheless make a just for the fun of it wager that your journey to speed, handling skills, hill climbing, track stands, wheelies, fame, money and chicks will take a similar route. When you are ready, you will.

While you have about one year in age on me, I am happy to report that I am faster now than I ever have been. How I do it is beside the real point, which is that it is doable, even at 65, 66, or 67. The desire to take action, and then taking it, trumps everything else.

keno

[pdonk]

The group ride I do has 3-4 different skill level groups that do a staggered start and take slightly different routes, but meet up, leave and generally arrive at key points together.

If I feel fit, I leave for the long hard ride, knowing that if/when I get dropped I can always coast back to the next group. At the beginning of the season this always happens, but by the end of the year, not so much. Maybe there is something similar in your area. With this format, you get the hard workout and skills development, plus a chance to socialize with others. Getting dropped and riding home alone is no fun.

[Scrafford]

Sandy, I am 53 years old and have only been cycling for the last seven years. I found that a coach is invaluable. They have helped me set up reasonable goals and have structured my workouts so that I am pushing myself, but not destroying myself. Even at my age, I often fail to listen to my body, but I do listen to my coach. I am not riding to race, but just to improve which improves my enjoyment of cycling.

[William]

Sandy,

Congrats on losing the weight and sticking with it.

A good idea for improving bike handling skills is to get together with someone like Too Tall and the gang and go through different handling drills in a parking lot. I know TT has offered to do this before (not trying to volunteer you Big Bro). Afterward you can all go out into a field and play a little Death Bike. Not as dangerous as it sounds. Basically you just try to make the other riders have to touch a foot to the ground by maneuvering your bike, bumping elbows, shoulders, all with out taking your own hands off your handlebars. It tends to be a low speed affair that focuses more on handling then anything else. I've never played in one where anyone got hurt. Fall over in the grass maybe. :bike: But no big deal. Loads of fun.





William

[Ti Designs]

I hope that Ti Designs is willing to work with me. In some ways, I feel that I would be a waste of time for him,as I am an older cyclist and the magnitude of improvement will be a function of my age and its accompanying limitations. I am not the finest cyclist to begin with.


Here's something I don't get. People assume coaching is something for the top riders while the average rider does their own thing, maybe they have good form, maybe they don't. I've looked at dozens of coaching web sites, they all put their best riders forward, showing the world that they can reach the top of the sport. Where would CTS be without the words "just like Lance"??? So there's plenty of coaching for the top 1/100 of 1%, great.

If you're looking for magnitude of improvement (and I am), why would you start with an established racer? The reason is simple, you can make more money sending out lots of training plans via e-mail then you can by riding with one rider working on form and technique. On average a CTS coach tracks 120 rider training schedules. I've done the math, there ain't that many hours in a day, they couldn't offer individual attention if they wanted. Getting results in most cases isn't about setting up a training plan, it's about laying the foundation.

What I do over the winter months is break down cycling into it's component parts. Form and technique are high on the list, as are strength and cardio fitness. Putting the parts together is kinda like the Karate kid figuring out that he did learn something from waxing a house and painting a car. A couple of years back I had a rider who started out in the fall not owning a bike. She worked on pedal stroke, she worked on strength, she trusted me and she was oh so slow on the hills. You could see while riding with her that her focus was on pedal stroke, just like the pedal stroke drills on the trainer. Then one training ride I changed how she thought about climbing. I had her switch to just big muscle groups and shift her body weight over the pedals. From that day on she was a good climber. Her pedal stroke was second nature at that point and she understood where and how each muscle group fired, it was just a matter of shifting the load.

Age has little to do with coaching. One of my clients is 60, he's doing Mt Washington next year, or to hear him say it, he's gonna put the old man back on the mountain. In my experience, I've found coaching for the novice rider to be an old man's game. The new kids have the time to make mistakes for years, the old guys want to do it all right the first time and they're willing to work with a coach to make that happen.

[Sandy]

I have a question, but first a little preface. You sought advice on losing weight on various occasions over the years on this forum. Now, somewhat out of the blue to me, you announce "svelt" to us all. Did you wake up one day and say to yourself something like "Now I am really going to lose weight" and you did, or was it something else? What sparked your need to take action, in other words?

While the advice in previous responses is very valuable, and I especially like "knowledge doesn't weigh anything" (and I apologize for not directly crediting its author, but guarantee I will put the phrase to use), being a reformed bettor I'll nevertheless make a just for the fun of it wager that your journey to speed, handling skills, hill climbing, track stands, wheelies, fame, money and chicks will take a similar route. When you are ready, you will.

While you have about one year in age on me, I am happy to report that I am faster now than I ever have been. How I do it is beside the real point, which is that it is doable, even at 65, 66, or 67. The desire to take action, and then taking it, trumps everything else.

keno

Keno,

Excellent post-I have always understood your approach to improvement and approaching life in general- I think that you basically gave that in a few words elsewhere- "Just do it." Today's "The desire to take action, and then taking it, trumps everything else." is basically the same message and it has great merit in it. You must decide to do something and then go ahead and do it. You can't just think about it...soner or later you must act on it, or it will never get done.

You asked me specifically why I decided to take action to lose weight. There were 5 reasons. I will give them to you, but will not elaborate on two, especially one, not that I could not, but it would not be fair to the person if I did so.

Reasons- 1. My weight got to 240 after not cycling for 4 months and doing no other exercise. I felt embarrassed and unhealthy.

2. I have a very close relative in the family, who did not exercise or take care of himself for 15 years, gained a great deal of weight, had a very poor diet, horrendous family history,....Recently (this year) he had major heart and artery problems necessitating major surgery. The heart problem still exists, is not fixable at present, and he is required to go to cardi rehab 3 times a week. I don't want that to happen to me.

3. I had a very upsetting personal cycling experience and at that time I vowed to myself to lose weight and improve- No more to be said about that.


4. Bad family history, including heart desease, cancer, obesity, diabetes.

5. I changed meds for my energy/fatigue problem and my insatiable appetite seemed a little easier to control.


You are 10,000,000,000 percent correct (over 100 percent :) ) in that you aren't going to improve at anything unless you DECIDE one day that you are going to do something and thendo it!! Almost simplistic, but so true.


I was 225 when I decided to lost the weight,and although I have failed multiple times in the last few years, I knew when I made up my mind to do it, it was a done deal. I made a goal 185 (maybe even 180) and I absolutely will reach that goal, unless prior to it, I am too thin.

It simply is not so easy for me to get things done, and I say that with the knowledge that I am an exceptionally fortunate person- I am retired, have some great friends- most from my cyling over the last few years, am very healthy (as far as I know), have a remarkably caring and giving wife, and have time to spend on what I really want to- in a country that allows it.

However, today, as other days, I woke being very tired, drained and fatigued, as often occurs with me, so it has not been easy to get started doing anything. That is often a problem to me, but I am improving and trying harder. Yes keno, my jouney will really start as you insightfully and correctly say- "When you are ready, you will."

I must in my mind balance cycling fun /hard work needed to improve, pushing on rides/riding slower with really nice cyclists who think camaraderie is at least as important as improvement, actual improvement/realistic potential improvement, needed expenditure of energy/fatigue lack of energy problem that I have and am addressing.......

Thanks for your post. I often feel frustration from you about me as I seem to perpetuate a situation and don't act on it, to improve that situation. You are probably correct, but what is easy for one is not so easy necessarily for another.


Sandy

[swoop]

2 things.
1) make sure you have a physical eval before you take on a program.
2) make sure you get a psych eval too. specifically rule out any mood disorders so that everything is in balance before you start to train. treatment will help you integrate the training and achieve your goals while remaining emotionally balanced.

i'm not calling you out or suggesting you're mentally ill... but i am telling you that you need to do this to train effectively at this stage in your life. if cycling becomes the medication.. it will ultimately fail you. at the same time, having a structured approach to cycling is good for your well being as long as the other stuff is in balance.

anyone that can read can get a level 3 coaching license from usa cycling (its open book). find someone local and who has experiences coaching guys that have goals like yours. coaching isn't rocket science but most guys are drawing from a well that isn't very deep.

that's my sincere advice. its good to have goals, its also good to stay connected to the big picture. its the gestalt. i'm trying to through in a little triage... there's some cognitive work to do in this before jump in.

enjoy.

[Climb01742]

sandy, have you ever been tested for food allergies? has anyone given you a good reason for your fatigue/lack of energy?

[Sandy]

sandy, have you ever been tested for food allergies? has anyone given you a good reason for your fatigue/lack of energy?

I went to an infectious disease doctor, psychiatrist, general practioner, cardiologist (stress test), neurologist (had a sleep study done), endocrinologist, and a general practioner. All tests were negative. The final diagnosis was atypical depression. Interestingly, the doctor who is treating me for it, said a few weeks ago that she did not think my energy/fatigue problem is from atypical depression. I think that she is incorrect.

I have never been tested for food allergies.

I did once spend over $50,000 in testing and found out that I am very allergic to Kevan. What a waste of money. He always seems be around no matter where I hide! :rolleyes: :)


Sandy

[swoop]

in folks your age depression looks different and often expresses as fatigue. it also very much bleeds into how one thinks about themself... and very much needs to be factored into your training.

this is very much at the root of absolving cycling from being performance based and rather using to focus on the hedonic experience, being out in nature, and enjoying the playfulness rather than training or focusing on goals.

i still think you should listen to stevep and jerk. its the best advice i've seen here that is tailored for you. the thing that needs training is how you think about the cycling. it might be the one area of your life you can absolve yourself from having to be as good as the fast guys and just go out and play.

a cycling coach isn't equipped to understand this stuff.
that being said, having some structure is good for you and does have a clinical effect.

enjoy. i'm out 'o this thread.... it's all i can offer without repeating myself ad naseum.

[Fixed]

bro all I try to do when I ride is have a ball .i invent things and do speed play I go fast if i want slow if i want, when it raining i'm in holland when it's hot in spain .. when i'm on my friction bike i'm in the days of merckx .. i like to play still ...the wrinkles are only a mask on a big kid .. behind the eyes we are the 8 year old on a stingray ..imho

[flydhest]

:)
Bike Rack group ride. 14th and Q St, NW. 8:30 on Sundays. We do 40 miles--a fairly standard Potomac loop our Macarthur and back in through the Park. It's a good group with a couple places where we put in some real efforts. I think finding a group where you can put in a hard effort but that still regroups is the best strategy. Hard work and a chance to repeat it several times, but still with the benefit of riding with nice people who want to have fun. Hammering the whole ride isn't that much fun.

I run the ride, no one gets dropped, everyone has fun, everyone gets to push themselves at some point or other.

Man, you are an inspiration.......30+ lbs weight loss.....motivated to get better.....paying attention, honestly to your development needs......Truly inspirationsl.

Once every week or 2, organize a ride with Fly, TooTall & The queen.......let them know you want to be pushed, and how. Tell them you want to build confidence in a group at speed.

They are all great people and would get you where you want to be with class, style and sensitivity.

Len

BTW...notice how easily I voluneteer other people :bike:

[Sandy]

So here is the question of the day. Can I find a place to park my car around 14th and Q? I have been wondering about that.


Sandy

[Bart001]

So here is the question of the day. Can I find a place to park my car around 14th and Q? I have been wondering about that.


Sandy

The second question of the day is, "Will my car still be there (with all 4 wheels) when I get back."

[djg]

So here is the question of the day. Can I find a place to park my car around 14th and Q? I have been wondering about that.


Sandy

Sandy

I did the ride one weekend when flydhest was out of town and, because of time constraints, I drove to the ride. At least that week, there was plenty of parking on 14th Street (and my car seemed just fine when I got back).

[Dan Le foot]

Man, you got a lot of response to your post, Sandy. The forum sure likes you. They really do! :beer:
A few years ago I was lamenting to a friend that I let Robin Williams beat me by 45 minutes on a 56 mile hilly course. (RW's about the same age)
My friend who is a long time amputee cyclist told me to stop bailing out and using my 30/29 gear combination on the 6-7% grades. He told me to start using a taller gear and I would soon get stronger on the hills. I did as he said.
Two years later I kicked RW's butt in the same race. (Improved my time by 50 minutes)
So try pushing a harder gear on the hills. It may work for you too.
Good luck.
Dan

[Sandy]

One final question about the ride. Flydhest says that it is a no drop ride, and it is his ride, so I know that it will be exactly as he says. But let's be realistic. You and flydhest and others who do the ride could drop me so badly climbing that hill on McArthur if you wanted....I could work real hard and still be way behind. I would enjoy the workout, but I certainly would not want you or flydhest and/or others having to constantly wait and regroup for people like me. It isn't that our abilities are close. We are in radically different ability level classification. You and flydhest have shown remarkable courtesy and sensitivity to slower riders in rides that I have been on. But it should work in both directions- I would not want to be the guy to slow the whole train down.

You guys are like the French super train, and I am the like the guy on the tracks making the super train slooooooooooow way down to a halt.


Choo Choo Sandy

[Sandy]

Man, you got a lot of response to your post, Sandy. The forum sure likes you. They really do! :beer:
A few years ago I was lamenting to a friend that I let Robin Williams beat me by 45 minutes on a 56 mile hilly course. (RW's about the same age)
My friend who is a long time amputee cyclist told me to stop bailing out and using my 30/29 gear combination on the 6-7% grades. He told me to start using a taller gear and I would soon get stronger on the hills. I did as he said.
Two years later I kicked RW's butt in the same race. (Improved my time by 50 minutes)
So try pushing a harder gear on the hills. It may work for you too.
Good luck.
Dan

Dan- I am always amazed by the number of responses that I receive in a thread. They are always so genuine, sincere, giving, insightful, well articuclated, and remarkably thought provoking and helpful. I really don't understand why it happens. I am rather direct and open about myself on the forum and with cyclists. I have posted a few personal thoughts on different threads, not really expecting hardly any responses and the responses just keep coming. Undeservedly so. I just will never understand why. I know that I am most fortunate that I receive such genuine support. It is so meaningful to me.

I do climb in larger gears now, and it does improve my climbing. I think I need more stregth to climb in larger gears, but with a greater cadence.

Thanks for your kindness.


Sandy

[keno]

thanks for your kind reply. My note was not at all intended to be an expression of frustration with you at all. Admittedly, I have expressed some in the past, but that is long gone. What I was attempting to say is that we all come to a point when we know within ourselves that if we are going to work at accomplishing a goal that right now is a good time to start. I am not saying or suggesting that today is that right time for you; only that you will know that day, whenever and if it happens, not as an intellectual matter but in your now insignificant gut. That is the day on which action will start. It's a matter of grace.


Best,

keno

[Karin Kirk]

First, a quick correction to Swoop's post that a Level 1 coach's license is available to anyone who can read. I think he meant level 3, which is the entry level. And true enough, being able to read appears to be the only requirement because even I got one! The level 1 license requires quite a bit more work and commitment.

Secondly, I'll weigh in on the confidence part. That's huge in my book. My formula is pretty simple: good experiences add confidence; bad experiences erode confidence. The trick to gaining confidence is exposing yourself to new situations in such a way that you are likely to have a positive experience. In other words, set yourself up for success. Take on new challenges in baby steps, not taking on too much at once. Challenge yourself when you are well-rested and mentally ready for a hard effort. If you are not up for it, don't attempt it because you may only reinforce any feelings that you couldn't do it.

Try to pick goals that are attainable, like hanging with a faster group for half the ride. Push yourself hard for that first half, and then enjoy an easier pace on the way home.

But that's just an example. What I'm really saying is to pick attainable goals and be prepared for them so that you are likely to have a positive outcome. This will add to your confidence and will also be a lot of fun.

If you should fail to reach the goal, then it can be hard to evaluate why it didn't work and what to do next. This is where resilience is key. Pick another goal, prepare for it again, and go for it.

You have already accomplished some major goals this summer, so I think you are on the right track. If you can apply the successes you've already had in this new direction, I think you will be pleased with what you can achieve!

[zap]

snipped

I would not want to be the guy to slow the whole train down.


Choo Choo Sandy

Sandy, Fly and I rode caboose yesterday helping this one fellow along.

I enjoyed talking to Fly about M2/the demiss of the M3/tax policies/etc. Wouldn't have happened if we were riding with the front group.

I'd do it again.

So.

Don't worry. Be happy. Just do it.

[Len J]

First, a quick correction to Swoop's post that a Level 1 coach's license is available to anyone who can read. I think he meant level 3, which is the entry level. And true enough, being able to read appears to be the only requirement because even I got one! The level 1 license requires quite a bit more work and commitment.

Secondly, I'll weigh in on the confidence part. That's huge in my book. My formula is pretty simple: good experiences add confidence; bad experiences erode confidence. The trick to gaining confidence is exposing yourself to new situations in such a way that you are likely to have a positive experience. In other words, set yourself up for success. Take on new challenges in baby steps, not taking on too much at once. Challenge yourself when you are well-rested and mentally ready for a hard effort. If you are not up for it, don't attempt it because you may only reinforce any feelings that you couldn't do it.

Try to pick goals that are attainable, like hanging with a faster group for half the ride. Push yourself hard for that first half, and then enjoy an easier pace on the way home.

But that's just an example. What I'm really saying is to pick attainable goals and be prepared for them so that you are likely to have a positive outcome. This will add to your confidence and will also be a lot of fun.

If you should fail to reach the goal, then it can be hard to evaluate why it didn't work and what to do next. This is where resilience is key. Pick another goal, prepare for it again, and go for it.

You have already accomplished some major goals this summer, so I think you are on the right track. If you can apply the successes you've already had in this new direction, I think you will be pleased with what you can achieve!

this is a keeper.

Len

[swoop]

thank you karin....

and please know i have a ton of respect for skilled coaching. i was just trying to punch through at some of the emotional issues that seem to be leaping out of the thread.. from the title and content.

in the hierarchy of needs.. i think the first thing is some cognitive work might be in order. and i see in your post that you're adressing it.

i'll go back and correct it.

[Larry]

Sandy,

What is your height and frame build? 195 sounds good to me.
What a disciplined and determined rider....to say the least.
I'm getting motivated again.

Larry

[Karin Kirk]

thank you karin....

and please know i have a ton of respect for skilled coaching. i was just trying to punch through at some of the emotional issues that seem to be leaping out of the thread.. from the title and content.

in the hierarchy of needs.. i think the first thing is some cognitive work might be in order. and i see in your post that you're adressing it.



Yes, I think I got where you are coming from. I agree wholeheartedly about the underpinnings of teaching and coaching - there are often psychological needs that have to be aired before you can get on to the physical (in sports) or cognitive (in school) stuff. Many teachers are so eager to pass along the content they don't even take notice that their student can't hear them because of other issues.

I am a huge fan of Mazlow's hierarchy of needs. I use it all the time. I keep a photocopy of the little pyramid diagram in my ski school parka.

As for the USA cycling coaching thing, I was disappointed in the lack of rigor in that level 3 coaching test, so even though I have the license, I don't believe that it in itself stands for much. But it's the entry level and that's where one starts out, so that's why I got it.

[flydhest]

Bart,
I don't think you know the area any more. A decade ago, people were afraid of going east of 16th, then it was 14th, now . . . who knows. There's a freakin' Whole Foods at 14th and P, a block away, so you know.

Sandy, read what Zap wrote. On some rides, the Doctor comes along and will ride with those who can only manage 12 on the flats. She's nice like that and tells me to go ahead. Yesterday, Zap and I had a pleasant, but by no means fast, second half of the ride with Steve, who was out on his second ride in a year and a half. We could have dropped him without even thinking about it, in fact, we did have to think about not dropping him from time to time, but that was the point. Encouragement, riding together, fun, improvement, these are the point of the ride.

Moreover, the ride has people of all ability levels. On Macarthur hill, the group shatters and we regroup at the Starbucks. That's just life. We regroup and have fun afterward and do the second half together as a group. I figger there's gotta be something for everyone. It's a no-drop group ride, but the "no-drop" is important and so is the "group." I want everyone to have fun, so the faster people get a couple chances to hammer.

[swoop]

Yes, I think I got where you are coming from. I agree wholeheartedly about the underpinnings of teaching and coaching - there are often psychological needs that have to be aired before you can get on to the physical (in sports) or cognitive (in school) stuff. Many teachers are so eager to pass along the content they don't even take notice that their student can't hear them because of other issues.

I am a huge fan of Mazlow's hierarchy of needs. I use it all the time. I keep a photocopy of the little pyramid diagram in my ski school parka.

As for the USA cycling coaching thing, I was disappointed in the lack of rigor in that level 3 coaching test, so even though I have the license, I don't believe that it in itself stands for much. But it's the entry level and that's where one starts out, so that's why I got it.

well said..and as far as the coaching thing.. please.. pah-leeeez! i'll order the book test this winter (i've had the forms sitting here forever). i'll be right there with you and yes.. the word here is 'hierarchy of needs'... fo shizzle.

[davids]

Sandy, read what Zap wrote.

...We could have dropped him without even thinking about it, in fact, we did have to think about not dropping him from time to time, but that was the point. Encouragement, riding together, fun, improvement, these are the point of the ride.

Moreover, the ride has people of all ability levels. On Macarthur hill, the group shatters and we regroup at the Starbucks. That's just life. We regroup and have fun afterward and do the second half together as a group. I figger there's gotta be something for everyone. It's a no-drop group ride, but the "no-drop" is important and so is the "group." I want everyone to have fun, so the faster people get a couple chances to hammer.
This reminds me of what I went through when I started biking again - Although when I started, I was almost completely unaware of how much slower I was than the guys I was riding with. The ethos was that no one got dropped - at least not for very long. Those rides were wonderful and I try to return the favor to newer/slower riders as often as I can.

I don't resent it at all, and I truly hope that those riders don't feel like they're a burden or drag. They're not. Period.

[flydhest]

This reminds me of what I went through when I started biking again - Although when I started, I was almost completely unaware of how much slower I was than the guys I was riding with. The ethos was that no one got dropped - at least not for very long. Those rides were wonderful and I try to return the favor to newer/slower riders as often as I can.

I don't resent it at all, and I truly hope that those riders don't feel like they're a burden or drag. They're not. Period.

yeah, what davids said.

[Kevan]

I have to let you go. It's now more apparent than ever I'm placing an unfair burden on your heart and constitution. Why without me, your heart will once again soar, you'll return to your blacktop savana a mature and health buck, foot loose and fancy free. Don't give me another thought. No...please, I insist! Go!

My only suggestion is you fix that cleat of yours, that foot loose stuff could kill ya in this game.

Fair-thee-well, mon amigo






(Now, maybe that'll get rid of 'im.)

[Sandy]

I have to let you go. It's now more apparent than ever I'm placing an unfair burden on your heart and constitution. Why without me, your heart will once again soar, you'll return to your blacktop savana a mature and health buck, foot loose and fancy free. Don't give me another thought. No...please, I insist! Go!

My only suggestion is you fix that cleat of yours, that foot loose stuff could kill ya in this game.

Fair-thee-well, mon amigo






(Now, maybe that'll get rid of 'im.)


Not so fast amigo. You ain't getting rid of me yet. You are too entrenched in my heart! Doesn't that give you a warm and fuzzy feeling?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[djg]

One final question about the ride. Flydhest says that it is a no drop ride, and it is his ride, so I know that it will be exactly as he says. But let's be realistic. You and flydhest and others who do the ride could drop me so badly climbing that hill on McArthur if you wanted....I could work real hard and still be way behind. I would enjoy the workout, but I certainly would not want you or flydhest and/or others having to constantly wait and regroup for people like me. It isn't that our abilities are close. We are in radically different ability level classification. You and flydhest have shown remarkable courtesy and sensitivity to slower riders in rides that I have been on. But it should work in both directions- I would not want to be the guy to slow the whole train down.

You guys are like the French super train, and I am the like the guy on the tracks making the super train slooooooooooow way down to a halt.


Choo Choo Sandy

Dear choo choo

Are you sure you haven't confused the TGV with the stocky little hairy engine that could, if just barely? I'm not sure my form is anything to write home about, but it's nice of you to suggest it might be.

Mebbe more to the point: I've only done the ride once, and I think that the group got pretty strung out on Macarthur, but nobody got left behind there. A small group pulled up to the Starbucks when they did, and the ride leader was with them, and everybody regrouped and that was that. I've been meaning to try and make it out again and it looks like I might be able to get out this Sunday. I'd be glad to wait at the top of the hill for you or -- if listening to me hyperventilate and sweat is the kind of thing you'd find uplifting -- I can ride the hill with you and just match your pace. That's the biggest climb on the ride and there really are only a few places where you might want people to hold up. Herr doktor f knows better than I who is showing up week after week, but I got the impression that there was a range of abilities and that was just part of the deal. Give it a shot -- you can climb that hill within your own ability and you won't be a drag on anybody else. Really.

[Sandy]

Dear choo choo

Are you sure you haven't confused the TGV with the stocky little hairy engine that could, if just barely? I'm not sure my form is anything to write home about, but it's nice of you to suggest it might be.

Mebbe more to the point: I've only done the ride once, and I think that the group got pretty strung out on Macarthur, but nobody got left behind there. A small group pulled up to the Starbucks when they did, and the ride leader was with them, and everybody regrouped and that was that. I've been meaning to try and make it out again and it looks like I might be able to get out this Sunday. I'd be glad to wait at the top of the hill for you or -- if listening to me hyperventilate and sweat is the kind of thing you'd find uplifting -- I can ride the hill with you and just match your pace. That's the biggest climb on the ride and there really are only a few places where you might want people to hold up. Herr doktor f knows better than I who is showing up week after week, but I got the impression that there was a range of abilities and that was just part of the deal. Give it a shot -- you can climb that hill within your own ability and you won't be a drag on anybody else. Really.

Dear locomotive,

Thanks for your kindness. I appreciate it. Now I have to get up early enough to do the ride.


Caboose