Tommy D's going to Slipstream

[Elefantino]

Now argyle really rocks.

From CN:

The Discovery Channel team may be gone at the end of this season, but its best riders are starting to find safety nets. The latest rider to secure a job for next season is American Tom Danielson who will ride for Team Slipstream/ Chipotle, team director Jonathan Vaughters told the Denver Post on Thursday.

Vaughters had hinted that he would be lending some more firepower to the team's stage race squad, and Danielson has shown his abilities time and again, winning the 2003 Tour de Langkawi, the 2005 Tour de Georgia, the 2006 Tour of Austria, as well as playing a supporting role in the Grand Tours.

His early career win in Langkawi put a lot of pressure on his shoulders, and his move to the Discovery Channel team in 2005 had many asking if he was America's next superstar. "He's a big natural talent," Vaughters told the Colorado paper. "He went to Discovery and got caught up in the whole 'next Lance Armstrong' thing, which he is not."

Vaughters said that the Colorado native would be a better prospect for winning one day races or stages in Grand Tours. "I don't know whether he'll be able to recover from day to day like Lance did," Vaughters said. "In a one-day race, it's not important. He can win a stage of the Tour de France without a doubt."

Danielson will join an impressive list of riders heading to the Professional Continental team which has aspirations of joining the ProTour in 2009. Also on the team are fellow Americans David Zabriskie, Christian Vande Velde, Paris-Roubaix winner Magnus Backstedt, Brit David Millar, Irishman Daniel Martin, New Zealander Julian Dean, Frenchman Chrisophe Laurent and Dutch riders Huub Duyn and Martin Maaskant.

[oracle]

i would say tommy boy just flushed his career away. a grand says that within a month of receiving his chipotle silver card, he is going to weigh over 185....

[shinomaster]

i would say tommy boy just flushed his career away. a grand says that within a month of receiving his chipotle silver card, he is going to weigh over 185....

I bet I eat more burritos than he does...

[stevep]

I bet I eat more burritos than he does...

yeah shino.
and wheres yr cycling career?

[Nick H.]

Reddit: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=31558&page=2&pp=15

[pdxmech13]

Now we can hear him say that Slipstream is the best organization in the cycling world when he is being interviewed time and time again. :crap: :crap:

[KJMUNC]

Fassa Bortolo = opportunity + visa issues

Discovery = opportunity^2 + giardia

Slipstream = redemption? or more excuses?

[mtflycaster]

Though he is a local homeboy and we all support him here, I also am frustrated by the excuses.

We wish him well with Slipstream.

[BSteele]

I found Vaughter's take on his talents to be dead on. He just isn't a 3-weeker, despite a great 06 Vuelta. That and the kid's a bad luck magnet, isn't he?

I don't see this move as particularly bad for his career, though. Slipstream is really upping it's game with their recent hires, so I don't see much opportunity for him to slack.

[SWorks4me]

Tommy D is too nice! He allowed Johan to boss him around ('07 tour DAY Georgia)

He allowed his awe struck sense of LA to over power his own ability.

He is a good kid...he will do great under JV's direction. MSM, L-B-L, Dauphine?

As far as eating too many burritos at Chipotle(I am a huge fan) he has access to the best Mexican food in Durango. Besides, that parasite will eat the burritos quicker than he will.

[stevep]

td is a very poor bike handler with a very strong motor.
hard to tell where he'll end up.

difficult to attain results in any 1 day stuff if you cant punch yr way through a crowd. those things are mega kermesses.

motor helps in a small group of riders after the 1st or 2nd big climb sorts it out a lot.

[jhcakilmer]

I found Vaughter's take on his talents to be dead on. He just isn't a 3-weeker, despite a great 06 Vuelta. That and the kid's a bad luck magnet, isn't he?

I don't see this move as particularly bad for his career, though. Slipstream is really upping it's game with their recent hires, so I don't see much opportunity for him to slack.

+1.....he's just not durable enough for a 3-week tour. Big engine, but high maintence. Seems as though he needs to try the 1-week tours, and hilly classics. I think if the sun and stars align perfectly he could do very well in a grand tour, but I think it would be careless to singularly focus on them.....the odds are against him!

[jhcakilmer]

td is a very poor bike handler with a very strong motor.
hard to tell where he'll end up.

difficult to attain results in any 1 day stuff if you cant punch yr way through a crowd. those things are mega kermesses.

motor helps in a small group of riders after the 1st or 2nd big climb sorts it out a lot.


Poor bike handler????? Wasn't he reasonably sucessful on the mtn. bike.....Colligate National Championship, etc. You can't really do very well in mtn bike races without being a pretty good bike handler.

I know the road is different, but it seems as though his biggest issue is staying healthy.......maybe he has some sort of immunodeficiency syndrome or something......it just seems very odd?

[stevep]

Poor bike handler????? Wasn't he reasonably sucessful on the mtn. bike.....Colligate National Championship, etc. You can't really do very well in mtn bike races without being a pretty good bike handler.


i dont think so. he was collegiate champ.
he is so strong a climber that it makes up for many handling sins.
on a technical course he wouild be overmatched by many riders.
a mountainous course he could be a favorite.

note well:
college aint the pros.

[93legendti]

Huh? Vaughters was the guy who couldn't finish stage races. Danielson finished 6th in '06 Vuleta and won a hard mountain stage. Most teams would kill for a guy that would finish in the top 10 of a grand Tour.

[SWorks4me]

Huh? Vaughters was the guy who couldn't finish stage races. Danielson finished 6th in '06 Vuleta and won a hard mountain stage. Most teams would kill for a guy that would finish in the top 10 of a grand Tour.
Vaughters didn't finish because he didn't dope. period end of that. he didn't finish because the hypocrites at the UCI wouldn't let him take medication for a wasp sting.

JV knows what he is doing (I better mind my p's and q's so I don't get accused for working for Chipotle)

[1centaur]

TD's problem is being very, very good but not great when people want him to be. With the right voice in his head earlier he might have done more, might have figured out the tactical thing to everyone's satisfaction, might have, could have, should have - a long list of near misses of one sort or another.

Now he's going to finish out his career with a few more good stage wins and maybe a few more race podiums, making him one of the more successful riders of the last decade (top 10%?) and one of the top 5-10 Americans. A heck of an accomplishment. Let's hope he can live with himself. I'm betting he can.

[93legendti]

Vaughters didn't finish because he didn't dope. period end of that. he didn't finish because the hypocrites at the UCI wouldn't let him take medication for a wasp sting.

JV knows what he is doing (I better mind my p's and q's so I don't get accused for working for Chipotle)

Uh, no. Vaughters crashed out in '99, '00 and '02. In '98 he crashed before the Tour, causing him to miss it:

"...But that break ended after a year when U.S. Postal signed Vaughters for the 1998 season. Sent back to Spain, Vaughters was named to the team's Tour de France squad, but a crash just a week before the start kept him off of the roster.
In yellow at the '99 Dauphine, Vaughters had some pretty impressive support.

Despite the setback, Vaughters' career started to come together. Vaughters performed consistently strong at the Dauphiné Libéré, winning stages in 1999, 2000 and 2001, even establishing the record in an individual time trial up the slopes of Mt. Ventoux.

After a strong Dauphiné performance in 1999, Vaughters was set for what many believed would be a great Tour de France debut. Instead, it was the beginning of a sometimes-frustrating relationship with the world's greatest bike race. Named to Postal's Tour teams in 1999 and 2000, Vaughters crashed out of both races.

Riding for Crédit Agricole in 2001, the squad celebrated a breakthrough victory in the team time trial, and Vaughters seemed a certainty to make to Paris - until just a few days before the finish, when he was forced to withdraw due to a severe reaction to a wasp sting. Another crash would take him out of his final Tour appearance in 2002..."

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/5244.0.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/in_depth/2001/tour_de_france/1456643.stm

[BBB]

Uh, no. Vaughters crashed out in '99, '00 and '02. In '98 he crashed before the Tour, causing him to miss it:

"...But that break ended after a year when U.S. Postal signed Vaughters for the 1998 season. Sent back to Spain, Vaughters was named to the team's Tour de France squad, but a crash just a week before the start kept him off of the roster.
In yellow at the '99 Dauphine, Vaughters had some pretty impressive support.

Despite the setback, Vaughters' career started to come together. Vaughters performed consistently strong at the Dauphiné Libéré, winning stages in 1999, 2000 and 2001, even establishing the record in an individual time trial up the slopes of Mt. Ventoux.

After a strong Dauphiné performance in 1999, Vaughters was set for what many believed would be a great Tour de France debut. Instead, it was the beginning of a sometimes-frustrating relationship with the world's greatest bike race. Named to Postal's Tour teams in 1999 and 2000, Vaughters crashed out of both races.

Riding for Crédit Agricole in 2001, the squad celebrated a breakthrough victory in the team time trial, and Vaughters seemed a certainty to make to Paris - until just a few days before the finish, when he was forced to withdraw due to a severe reaction to a wasp sting. Another crash would take him out of his final Tour appearance in 2002..."

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/5244.0.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/in_depth/2001/tour_de_france/1456643.stm

But, what's crashing out of the race got to do with JV's observations?

[Big Dan]

What other offers did he have?

:confused:

[Fixed]

bro anti crash dope
cheers

[Fat Robert]

ok froop loops:


1) whether or not vaughters crashed out of a bunch of races is irrelevent. he's the DS, he knows what his riders' strengths and weaknesses are.

2) as a DS, he wants to know what his guys can win. he doesn't give a crap about tommy d's ability to finish 13th in the Tour (and 6th in the Vuelta would translate into 13-15 at the Tour..look at riders over the years who finish in the 5th-15th spots at the vuelta...its a mix of top-10 guys from the Tour who are burnt out at that stage of the year, and good-but-not-great stage racers. tommy d ain't been tired going into those Vueltas). tommy d is a guy who could win a week-long race like or mountain stages. that's it. so that's what he's at slipstream to do. tommy d has never shown he can recover consistently in a three-week race. the parasite wasn't the main culprit of that problem, either. tommy is the same type of rider vaughters was, but a little bigger, a little stronger, doesn't suffer so much from the days of 50kph on the flat early in a stage race. but the same basic type. JV knows what he's getting, and he knows how to use it as a racing weapon.

3) bike handling on a mountain bike and bike handling on a road bike, are two different skills. its not just about cornering, kids. its about reading a pack, and not getting bullied back 60 spots. being able to ride technical single track and being able to hold a position in the first 20 guys in a grand tour peloton that's screaming up to the base of a mountain climb at 55kph are two frucking different things. tommy d has never shown the pack skill to be a consistent stage race threat. listen to the pucc. the pucc knows all. tommy d is a guy who needs a few mountains to wear the field down so that he doesn't have to start the climb 50 places back...of course, he starts the firt climb 50 places back, which wastes energy too, but never mind that....

[93legendti]

ok froop loops:


1) whether or not vaughters crashed out of a bunch of races is irrelevent. he's the DS, he knows what his riders' strengths and weaknesses are.

2) as a DS, he wants to know what his guys can win. he doesn't give a crap about tommy d's ability to finish 13th in the Tour (and 6th in the Vuelta would translate into 13-15 at the Tour..look at riders over the years who finish in the 5th-15th spots at the vuelta...its a mix of top-10 guys from the Tour who are burnt out at that stage of the year, and good-but-not-great stage racers. tommy d ain't been tired going into those Vueltas). tommy d is a guy who could win a week-long race like or mountain stages. that's it. so that's what he's at slipstream to do. tommy d has never shown he can recover consistently in a three-week race. the parasite wasn't the main culprit of that problem, either. tommy is the same type of rider vaughters was, but a little bigger, a little stronger, doesn't suffer so much from the days of 50kph on the flat early in a stage race. but the same basic type. JV knows what he's getting, and he knows how to use it as a racing weapon.

3) bike handling on a mountain bike and bike handling on a road bike, are two different skills. its not just about cornering, kids. its about reading a pack, and not getting bullied back 60 spots. being able to ride technical single track and being able to hold a position in the first 20 guys in a grand tour peloton that's screaming up to the base of a mountain climb at 55kph are two frucking different things. tommy d has never shown the pack skill to be a consistent stage race threat. listen to the pucc. the pucc knows all. tommy d is a guy who needs a few mountains to wear the field down so that he doesn't have to start the climb 50 places back...of course, he starts the firt climb 50 places back, which wastes energy too, but never mind that....


Uh, just because he is the DS doesn't mean anything about what he knows. He SHOULD know the riders strengths and what they can accomplish, but that assumes he is competent, intelligent and capable. And considering Vaughters has been in the USA while TD has mostly been riding in Europe for the last few years, JV's "knowledge" seems limited. For a guy who had trouble getting from here to there without tripping over his own feet, I don't infer he knows what it takes to finish a Grand Tour. What does he know about digging deep in the 3rd week of a Tour? He watched that part from his home or hospital bed.

He has a guy with a huge engine and who has shown ability. Instead of working and building on that, he ASAP lets him know he can't succeed in a 3 week Tour. Geez, good thing JB didn't say that in '98 to Lance after he finished 4th in the Vuelta. What's that good for, 11-13th in the Tour?

No wonder JV said "The Tour de France sucks".

[Fat Robert]

Uh, just because he is the DS doesn't mean anything about what he knows. He SHOULD know the riders strengths and what they can accomplish, but that assumes he is competent, intelligent and capable. An conmsidering Vaughters has been in the USA while TD has mostly been riding in Europe for the last few years, JV's "knowledge" seems limited. For a guy who had trouble getting from here to there without tripping over his own feet, I don't infer he knows what it takes to finish a Grand Tour. What does he know about digging deep in the 3rd week of a Tour? He watched that part from his home or hospital bed.

He has a guy with a huge engine and who has shown ability. Instead of working and building on that, he ASAP lets him know he can't succeed in a 3 week Tour. Geez, good thing JB didn't say that in '98 to Lance after he finished 4th in the Vuelta. What's that good for, 11-13th in the Tour?

No wonder JV said "The Tour de France sucks".


adam, i like you, but now i gotta rip you a new one


1) JV finished a Tour, he knows what that's about.

2) TD has shown he has a huge engine and no frucking clue about how to position himself to use it, even after four years in the pro peloton and protected rider status.

3) lance's 4th in the Vuelta was done in a manner that showed he could have won the thing. that's a lot different than getting your arse handed to you for the first week, having a bad day or two, then coming back to gain time on some mountain top finishes when nobody is marking you, and ending up in the top 10, but basically, you were just watching/following the fight, rather than being one of the main antagonists.

4) unless somebody has overdosed on Disco/Postal Kool Aid (and whatever else they kept in the team fridge) and thinks that every american who rose for the god johan B is the next tour winner, i'd say listen to JV...he knows what he's about....

5) I like Tommy D. he's the american steven rooks, or andy hampsten circa 90-93. he's a hell of a gifted rider, he's stage race winner, but he's not a grand tour winner. most DS's would kill to have a guy like him , JV has him, and he's a great get.

[93legendti]

adam, i like you, but now i gotts rip you a new one


1) JV finished a Tour, he knows what that's about.

2) TD has sown he has a huge engine and no frucking clue about how to position himself. even after four years in the pro peloton

3) lance's 4th in the Vuelta was done in a manner that showed he could have won the thing. that's a lot different than getting your arse handed to you for the first week, having a bad day or two, then coming back to gain time on some mountain top finishes when nobody is marking you.

4) unless somebody has overdosed on Disco/Postal Kool Aid (and whatever else they kept in the team fridge) and thinks that every american who rose for the god johan B is the next tour winner, i'd say listen to JV...he knows what he's about....

Robert, I like you and maybe things have gotten really slow over at the FF:

What Tour did JV finish?

I never said TD could win the Tour. But think about LA's years and now. Who are the contenders? Roulers? Or climbers? The guys who can win TT's and mountain top finishes are gone.

How is Slipstream going to get in the Tour? Probably wildcard. A win or a great showing in the Dauphine or Paris-Nice might be the ticket. TD, with the right support, has a chance for those goals as he does for top 10 in the Tour--not against Jan or LA, but the current crop of Tour cyclists.

I would listen to JV about how to recover from crashes in a Grand Tour. He must be an expert at that.

You know a manager should know the strength of his guys. The Phillies had Placido Polanco playing part time and traded him to the Tigers for some 2nd rate reliever. Good thing, 'cuz under Jim Leyland, Polanco just set the MLB record for errorless games at 2b and is 3rd or 4th in the batting race.

[Fat Robert]

Robert, I like you and maybe things have gotten really slow over at the FF:

What Tour did JV finish?

I never said TD could win the Tour. But think about LA's years and now. Who are the contenders? Roulers? Or climbers? The guys who can win TT's and mountain top finishes are gone.

How is Slipstream going to get in the Tour? Probably wildcard. A win or a great showing in the Dauphine or Paris-Nice might be the ticket. TD, with the right support, has a chance for those goals as he does for top 10 in the Tour--not against Jan or LA, but the current crop of Tour cyclists.

I would listen to JV about how to recoevr from crashes in a Grand Tour. He must be an expert at that.

You know a manager should know the strength of his guys. The Phillies had Placido Polanco playing part time and traded him to the Tigers for some 2nd rate reliever. Good thing, 'cuz under Jim Leyland, Polanco just set the MLB record for errorless games at 2b and is 3rd or 4th in the batting race.


i remembered hinm as finishing 2002, but nope...he didn't....

slip will get in on a wildcard

i think JV's point is more about TD's recovery -- he's done two Vueltas, and both times he had more than one really crappy day. he just hasn't proved he can do it over three weeks like a podium finisher....

TD can finish in the TOP 10 in the Tour. but pro cycling is about wins for the sponsor -- so if they go to the biggun, TD is your weapon for a mountain stage and a good overall, but the stage win is much more important than the placing.

results-wise, TD could be like that guy steve's bro 1990-93...dauphine, romandy, tour stage...which would be a pretty kick arse career.

[Richard]

"You know a manager should know the strength of his guys. The Phillies had Placido Polanco playing part time and traded him to the Tigers for some 2nd rate reliever. Good thing, 'cuz under Jim Leyland, Polanco just set the MLB record for errorless games at 2b and is 3rd or 4th in the batting race."

Citing the Phillies as a touchstone for poor management decisions is just too darn easy and as a long suffering Phillies fan too hurtful. The list of Phillies castoffs could field a pennant contender. This is a team that bumbles like the Cubs, but is not loveable. I think they single handedly created the civic anger that percolates and shows up at every sports venue in the city.

[93legendti]

"You know a manager should know the strength of his guys. The Phillies had Placido Polanco playing part time and traded him to the Tigers for some 2nd rate reliever. Good thing, 'cuz under Jim Leyland, Polanco just set the MLB record for errorless games at 2b and is 3rd or 4th in the batting race."

Citing the Phillies as a touchstone for poor management decisions is just too darn easy and as a long suffering Phillies fan too hurtful. The list of Phillies castoffs could field a pennant contender. This is a team that bumbles like the Cubs, but is not loveable. I think they single handedly created the civic anger that percolates and shows up at every sports venue in the city.

Sorry, Richard, didn't mean to touch a nerve. They traded away **** Allen, right?

[stevep]

. The Phillies had Placido Polanco playing part time and traded him to the Tigers for some 2nd rate reliever. .

he never did anything in a grand tour either. good hands but cant hit.

go red sox.

[bozman]

Citing the Phillies as a touchstone for poor management decisions is just too darn easy and as a long suffering Phillies fan too hurtful. The list of Phillies castoffs could field a pennant contender. This is a team that bumbles like the Cubs, but is not loveable. I think they single handedly created the civic anger that percolates and shows up at every sports venue in the city.

+1(000,000)

As a long-suffering Phillies fan I could not agree more. They also had a knack for getting the lesser-known (read: not as good) brothers of some really good players: Giambi (Jeremy), Maddux (Mike), DiMaggio (Vince.) :crap:

[93legendti]

he never did anything in a grand tour either. good hands but cant hit.

go red sox.

Placido can hit a bit:

.334 this year, .304 lifetime. 4th best batting average in the AL.

http://64.246.64.33/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=freep&page=mlb/teams/032/players.aspx?id=3590,pos=2B,team=032

[stevep]

[QUOTE=93legendti]Placido can hit a bit:

.334 this year, .304 lifetime. 4th best batting average in the AL.

QUOTE]

my mistake.
why'de they trade him again?
ooops

[93legendti]

"The Phillies did sign Polanco for 2005, but sent him to the Tigers in June 2005 in a trade for veteran right-hander Ugueth Urbina and infielder Ramon Martinez, allowing the Phillies to play Chase Utley every day at second base. Polanco finished the 2005 season batting .338 with the Tigers, and also having a career year with regards to OPS, finishing the season at .847. In addition, he led the majors in lowest strikeout percentage (5.0%) for the season.[1]

Polanco was a key player in the 2006 Division and Championship series for the Tigers, being named Most Valuable Player of the ALCS...

In 2007, Polanco set notable fielding records. On July 31, he set the record for most consecutive chances without an error by a second basemen,[1] and on August 13 he set the record for most consecutive errorless games by a second baseman (144).[2] He broke Luis Castillo's previous record.[2]"


Urbina is in jail now, iirc.

[Richard]

I'm going to have to complain to the moderator because all this Phillies talk is causing me a great deal of angst. Oh the inanity...oops humanity.

[93legendti]

I'm going to have to complain to the moderator because all this Phillies talk is causing me a great deal of angst. Oh the inanity...oops humanity.

You gotta love Mike Schmidt. :)

[Richard]

Remarkably the Philles didn't trade him for a journeyman pitcher. Remember Bo Belinsky? One of the Phillies trades to live in infamy. Or Ryne Sandberg to the Cubs for ??? Oh yes, Urbina is in jail in Venezuela (I think) for attempted murder. Couldn' bring it with a baseball, so tried with a machete.

[fstrthnu]

.

[93legendti]

[QUOTE=93legendti]Placido can hit a bit:

.334 this year, .304 lifetime. 4th best batting average in the AL.

QUOTE]

my mistake.
why'de they trade him again?
ooops


Oops, .337, he's 3 for 5 tonight. :)

[stevep]

I'm going to have to complain to the moderator because all this Phillies talk is causing me a great deal of angst. Oh the inanity...oops humanity.

i thk you should sue serotta.
they wont let up on the bad news for phillies fans.
settle for a couple of meivicis.

[sspielman]

Vaughters didn't finish because he didn't dope. period end of that. he didn't finish because the hypocrites at the UCI wouldn't let him take medication for a wasp sting.

JV knows what he is doing (I better mind my p's and q's so I don't get accused for working for Chipotle)


This has to be the funniest post that I have seen on this forum, but Vaughters admitted to Frankie Andreu in their instant message conversation that was subpoenaed in the Armstrong trial that he had doped....recall his comments about not being any stranger to the hot sauce.....

[93legendti]

This has to be the funniest post that I have seen on this forum, but Vaughters admitted to Frankie Andreu in their instant message conversation that was subpoenaed in the Armstrong trial that he had doped....recall his comments about not being any stranger to the hot sauce.....


http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=32167&page=2&pp=15

[fstrthnu]

Vaughters didn't finish because he didn't dope.

:rolleyes:

[Fixed]

bro you cats know this stuff a lot better than me.. this more of a ? than a statement .. but if you are an average pro that makes a good excuse " i didn't dope " ....I never heard that before .
cheers

[pdxmech13]

Wwjw