First American finisher of PBP

[fiamme red]

Here's (http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/Mike-Schmidts-Bikes/PBP+2007/Photo2490.jpg.html) the man.

Here's (http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/Mike-Schmidts-Bikes/PBP+2007/Photo2491.jpg.html) his bike.

Click on the photos for full-size.

[Fixed]

cool bike bro hang 'n with you cats has taught how cool those bikes can be
thanks bros
cheers

[weisan]

stay with what works.

[SadieKate]

How fun! I assume that is the Jan Heine of Vintage Bicycle Press? It's my favorite bicycle magazine.

http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/index.html

[fiamme red]

How fun! I assume that is the Jan Heine of Vintage Bicycle Press? It's my favorite bicycle magazine.

http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/index.htmlYes, he practises what he preaches.

[e-RICHIE]

he's plane and simple atmo.

[David Kirk]

Plane to see ATMO.

Dave

[cpg]

Rippin' fast!

Curt

[fiamme red]

He finished in around 50 hours for the 762 miles (perhaps under 50 hours, I don't know exactly what time he started). And he did it without support. What a ride!

[J.Greene]

More importantly.....has anybody who is a regular member of the forum finished?

JG

[mschol17]

50 hours is really fast! I wonder how much he slept? Judging from his reputation, I imagine not very much...

[fiamme red]

More importantly.....has anybody who is a regular member of the forum finished?

JGSo far, Jan Heine is the only American who has finished.

[J.Greene]

50 hours is really fast! I wonder how much he slept? Judging from his reputation, I imagine not very much...

just throwing this out..if he averaged 17mph on the bike, that left about 5 hours for everything else.

JG

[Marron]

You'll notice his blue SR Jersey; a sure sign around here that someone is either single or very lucky in deed.

Actually they are a great bunch who do their super distance thing on lonely roads in all kinds of NW weather. I was out at the ocean over the weekend skating for a change and someone in a blue SR jersey breezed past me before I could say hello.

[Steelhead]

Now what is the deal with the blue jersey? :confused:

[mpetry]

His mag is great and he's a heck of a guy, totally devoted to the sport and his 2 kids. Great accomplishment. Jan, you da man!

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA

[Grant McLean]

You'll notice his blue SR Jersey; a sure sign around here that someone is either single or very lucky in deed.


I'm single, lucky, devoted, and no way can I ride 762 miles in 2 days!
Way to go Jan!

-g

[m_moses]

I'm staying at a hotel in Saint Quentin En Yvelines where PBP started earlier in the week but unfortunately didn't get to see the start.

Some of the riders' families are in the same hotel and this morning, I overheard discussions about their significant other's progress during the night. Pretty exciting stuff.

I hope I get to see some of finishers before I leave.

[dbrk]

Congratulations to Jan. This is quite an accomplishment and I hope he had fun doing it. Beautiful bike too. Mine don't go that far or fast in so short a time.

dbrk

[Nick H.]

How old is his bike?

[Too Tall]

That's-a-fast :) I've finished twice :) :) Sweet.
FWIIW - I coached a fellow who dedicated this yr. to training and hopes to crack the magic 56h:41m goal...he is doing well :) Truly, this ride is one for the brave and especially so when done FAST. It really is inspiring.

[dave1215]

"The Competitive Side of Randonneuring", By Jan Heine and Melinda Lyon:

http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/EN/index.php?showpage=22

[tv_vt]

Boy, down tube shifters, non-aero brake cables. That bike hasn't seen the inside of a bike shop in a while. From the looks of it, I could've stopped buying bike parts about 25 years ago and still done this ride.

Anyone know the frame maker?

T

[fiamme red]

Boy, down tube shifters, non-aero brake cables. That bike hasn't seen the inside of a bike shop in a while. From the looks of it, I could've stopped buying bike parts about 25 years ago and still done this ride.

Anyone know the frame maker?

TAlex Singer.

[e-RICHIE]

Alex Singer.
????????? -

http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/Raketnet/Drama/AnnieHoofd_sm.jpg

[Too Tall]

tv_vt - ahhh grasshopper your training begins now. Look a little closer, read some about Jan and his bikes...this is a personal quest for the boy. In a nutshell the bike is refurbished and is exactly how it should have been back innna day.

[Fixed]

bro i bet he was faster than a lot of cats on the state of the art stuff
cheers

[mschol17]

"It's not about the bike."

But what's better than tearing up PBP on a Singer?

[PeterW]

bro i bet he was faster than a lot of cats on the state of the art stuff
cheers
For that event, that bike IS state of the art!

[J.Greene]

For that event, that bike IS state of the art!

Not really.

It's testement to the fact that the engine is what matters.

JG

[Kevan]

The bike was in its element.

[Vancouverdave]

A customer and friend of mine is riding it on a 25 year old Ron Cooper--because after checking weather reports he opted for his fender-friendlier bike.
Allez, Phillippe!

[Michael Maddox]

Sigh...don't know the story, but my favorite has apparently abandoned. Ritaann (RABikes here) is the person who first got me to come to the forum.

[Ozz]

How old is his bike?
Didn't he post the fastest time for mixed tandem in the last PBP?

If I recall correctly, he and partner were on a 1948 Rene Herse tandem....very cool.

:beer:

[mschol17]

I look forward to the ride reports, but by all accounts the weather was pretty miserable this year; rainy and very cold. A larger than normal number of DNFs were expected due to the rough conditions.

[palincss]

I look forward to the ride reports, but by all accounts the weather was pretty miserable this year; rainy and very cold. A larger than normal number of DNFs were expected due to the rough conditions.

To quote from this week's Road Bike Rider newsletter:

This year's Paris-Brest-Paris quickly turned into 1,200 km (745 miles) of misery for riders who had already ridden qualifying events of 200, 300, 400 and 600 km just to be there.

"I watched them leave and you could see that even though the excitement made them cheer and wave, there was a look of real concern on many of their faces," said Jean-Louis Tachlon, who'd crossed the country from Lyons to support his clubmates. "For some there will be a real risk of hypothermia."

PBP, held every four years, has been lashed by rain and buffeted by cold northerly crosswinds in one of the worst summers Europe has known.

Forecasters said the rain was due to end only when the last riders were back to Paris after 90 hours. Northerly winds on a route that runs east-west are almost as difficult as headwinds. Temperatures have been consistently in the 50-60F (10-16C) range. More than the usual number of retirements is expected when the final accounting is done.

[palincss]

"It's not about the bike."

But what's better than tearing up PBP on a Singer?

Well, I guess doing it on a 55 year old Rene Herse tandem (as Jan did in 2003) is at least as good...

BTW - it's perfectly possible this isn't an old bike at all. One of Jan's Singers was, IIRC, constructed in 2000. This could be it.

[dave1215]

I look forward to the ride reports, but by all accounts the weather was pretty miserable this year; rainy and very cold. A larger than normal number of DNFs were expected due to the rough conditions.


doesn't jan heine train in seattle? could this have been an advantage for him this year because of the weather conditions at pbp? not that he needs an advantage but isn't he used to such conditions and isn't that bike made to tackle just such conditions?

[fiamme red]

Sigh...don't know the story, but my favorite has apparently abandoned. Ritaann (RABikes here) is the person who first got me to come to the forum.Sorry to hear that. Here's an article about her attempt:

http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070821/SPORTS/708210330/1002/SPORTS

[dbrk]

Not really.
It's testement to the fact that the engine is what matters.
JG

The bike was certainly no disadvantage or handicap. That's my experience on a similarly equipped Singer...but I couldn't ride that fast in a million years, or a million ago. Nice job again, Jan.

dbrk

[Fixed]

bro to me he looks like a racer .imho
cheers

[sg8357]

tv_vt - ahhh grasshopper your training begins now. Look a little closer, read some about Jan and his bikes...this is a personal quest for the boy. In a nutshell the bike is refurbished and is exactly how it should have been back innna day.

I made the hajj to the Singer shop about 4 years ago. There was new Singer being kitted out with all NOS Simplex/TA etc. Buyer was a Japanese collector who shipped the NOS parts to Singer. The back of the shop has a huge stash of vintage bits. Riding a Singer or Herse at PBP shows class and an appreciation of the event.

Scott G.

[sevencyclist]

Sorry to ask a stupid question. I noticed that he has fenders. Now, if one is trying to finish in a certain amount of time, then the lighter the load, the faster one can ride. So the questions is, if the weather looks to be fair for the 2-3 days expected to ride the PBP, would it make sense for one to take off the fenders?

[fiamme red]

Sorry to ask a stupid question. I noticed that he has fenders. Now, if one is trying to finish in a certain amount of time, then the lighter the load, the faster one can ride. So the questions is, if the weather looks to be fair for the 2-3 days expected to ride the PBP, would it make sense for one to take off the fenders?No, because the weather in Brittany is very unpredictable. And besides, fenders don't weigh much.

[J.Greene]

The bike was certainly no disadvantage or handicap. That's my experience on a similarly equipped Singer...but I couldn't ride that fast in a million years, or a million ago. Nice job again, Jan.

dbrk

Doug,

Thats part of what I was trying to say. That bike, or a Weigle or a Tournesol with more modern gear would not have pedaled itself. Jan is a very strong rider. I love those bikes, but they are not state of the art. They are very well suited though. The Weigles and Tournesols and such are state of the art.

JG

[mschol17]

The statement "state of the art" makes me think. What developments in cycling since the 1950s, say, are focused on the kind of bike you need for PBP? It seems to me that Singer and Herse are the state of the art, by definition, and Weigle, Mariposa, Tournesol, etc are primarily refining what Singer and Herse did.

The integration of the bike, fenders, racks, lights is the art. Carbon fiber, oversized headtubes and STI shifting don't add that much to a 50-90 hour ride. I wouldn't be surprised if Jan's overall bike is lighter than most bikes at PBP because everything is integrated and because he travels light.

Until there are more bikes like the Tournesol/Parlee PBP bike, I don't think state of the art means much in this context.

[72gmc]

The miniscule weight of fenders doesn't matter once you're moving--until it rains, then you're very glad.* And the "conditions" at PBP are just another day in Seattle, but I'll now use "tackling the conditions." It's man-tastic!


*Besides, that Singer and bikes like it are incomplete without nice fenders imo.

[J.Greene]

Using that logic you could say todays tdf bikes are just refined bikes of yesterday. And you'd be right. But, lights have gotten better. Brakes have gotten better. I like more gears not less. While I don't think you can take anything away from Jan or his bike, the breed has been improved in the places that are improvable. And I'll submit maybe they aren't as good in others. Goodrich, Pete Weigle, Tournesol etc getting it.

I also think 762 miles rides are extreme and advancements at the margin could help.

JG

The statement "state of the art" makes me think. What developments in cycling since the 1950s, say, are focused on the kind of bike you need for PBP? It seems to me that Singer and Herse are the state of the art, by definition, and Weigle, Mariposa, Tournesol, etc are primarily refining what Singer and Herse did.

The integration of the bike, fenders, racks, lights is the art. Carbon fiber, oversized headtubes and STI shifting don't add that much to a 50-90 hour ride. I wouldn't be surprised if Jan's overall bike is lighter than most bikes at PBP because everything is integrated and because he travels light.

Until there are more bikes like the Tournesol/Parlee PBP bike, I don't think state of the art means much in this context.

[PeterW]

I said "state of the art" for fun.

But I was serious, too. A bunch of features on Jan's bike are as good as it gets and are not retro-for-retro's-sake:

1) load hauling = integrated front canvas bag. Light, weatherproof, easily accessible. There is no better way to carry stuff on PBP, especially if (like Jan) you eat on the go.

2) lighting = SON hub.

3) tires = Grand Bois 30s. Light, supple, comfy, and fast. Faster (according to Jan) than most modern tires, and faster than others of same volume.

4) fenders = his are safer, lighter, and more durable than more modern models.

Similar points could be made about his choice of saddle, wheels (low dish), and shifters.

The coolest thing about the bike is how tight it all is. I mean there's no extra stuff flapping about.

As a package, Jan's bike is about perfect for a self-sufficient, multi-day event in the rain and the dark. Especially since the thing planes uphills!

[palincss]

Sorry to ask a stupid question. I noticed that he has fenders. Now, if one is trying to finish in a certain amount of time, then the lighter the load, the faster one can ride. So the questions is, if the weather looks to be fair for the 2-3 days expected to ride the PBP, would it make sense for one to take off the fenders?

Not those fenders, it wouldn't. Those fenders (and racks) are not added-on accessories, they're part of an integrated design, along with the lighting. That's why builders like Singer and Herse were called constructeurs. And removing and replacing fenders like those are a right pain.

Also, it's not proven that removing fenders would make you any faster. Jan has demonstrated in a BQ article that a weight difference of as much as 5 pounds makes only a few minutes difference in the time it takes to complete PBP, and you may be sure those fenders don't weigh anything like 5 lb. It's even possible that fenders have a beneficial aero effect.

[palincss]

Using that logic you could say todays tdf bikes are just refined bikes of yesterday. And you'd be right. But, lights have gotten better. Brakes have gotten better. I like more gears not less. While I don't think you can take anything away from Jan or his bike, the breed has been improved in the places that are improvable. And I'll submit maybe they aren't as good in others. Goodrich, Pete Weigle, Tournesol etc getting it.

I also think 762 miles rides are extreme and advancements at the margin could help.

JG

Jan's bike has a fully modern, completely state of the art lighting system. If you look closely at the photo you can see the dynamo is a Schmidt SON. The lights are similarly fully modern, state of the art.

As for brakes, it's not at all clear to me that those brazed on Mafac centerpulls you see on his bike really anything less than state of the art in terms of braking power or modularity. I believe the absolutely best modern brake you can buy today for this sort of application is a Paul centerpull mounted on brazed on studs, and the Paul is simply an updated Mafac copy with easier pad adjustment.

Regarding more speeds: this can be broken down into higher high gears and more closely spaced gears. Jan's made comments in BQ and online that indicate that he's perfectly happy with a high gear no higher than 85-90 inches, and he's demonstrated in BQ that on downhill sections an aero tuck is more efficient than pedalling in a big gear. Higher high gears may provide an advantage in sprints, but as we can see in his article on competition in PBP, sprinting isn't a factor there, which effectively negates the value of at least three of the smallest sprockets on a typical modern cassette.

That leaves closely spaced gears.

A recurring theme in the road tests in BQ has been "planing" - which seems to refer to being able to surge up hills without having to continually shift gears. A frequent complaint in the BQ road tests has been that oversize tubing often produces an excessively stiff frame which requires frequent shifts to very close adjacent gears to avoid bogging down -- unlike his Singers, which he can get over the same terrain without having to shift, by surging. In other words, if many closely spaced gears provide a benefit at all, it is only in compensating for and overcoming the handicap of an excessively stiff frame.

[sg8357]

Using that logic you could say todays tdf bikes are just refined bikes of yesterday. And you'd be right. But, lights have gotten better. Brakes have gotten better. I like more gears not less. While I don't think you can take anything away from Jan or his bike, the breed has been improved in the places that are improvable. And I'll submit maybe they aren't as good in others. Goodrich, Pete Weigle, Tournesol etc getting it.

I also think 762 miles rides are extreme and advancements at the margin could help.

JG

The TDF has changed a lot more than PBP, except for road quality the PBP is the same as it ever was. The TDF has much shorter stages, team cars and radios than 75 years ago. At the TDF bikes get gone over by mechanics every evening, at PBP friction shifting means not having to mess with your recently unpacked bike. At PBP small increases in comfort trump small increases in speed. In Bicycle Quarterly Jan has expressed his general preferrence for skinny tubes vs. oversize. Center pull brakes vs. dual pivot, 30mm tires vs. 23mm. Jan is sort of indifferent to number of gears, just ride with a wider cadence range. Lights, Generators, brake blocks and tires have gotten better, so that is what is on Jan's Singer. I would never ride the TDF on a 1950 Bianchi, ride PBP on a 1950 Rene Herse with modern lighting ? that would be fine.

Scott G.
Who feels silly trying to explain Jan Heine's riding prefs.

[coylifut]

That leaves closely spaced gears.

A recurring theme in the road tests in BQ has been "planing" - which seems to refer to being able to surge up hills without having to continually shift gears. A frequent complaint in the BQ road tests has been that oversize tubing often produces an excessively stiff frame which requires frequent shifts to very close adjacent gears to avoid bogging down -- unlike his Singers, which he can get over the same terrain without having to shift, by surging. In other words, if many closely spaced gears provide a benefit at all, it is only in compensating for and overcoming the handicap of an excessively stiff frame.

that's basically what i do on my fixed gear because I only have 1

[e-RICHIE]

A recurring theme in the road tests in BQ has been "planing" - which seems to refer to being able to surge up hills without having to continually shift gears.
are there any builders or industry types that get this?

A frequent complaint in the BQ road tests has been that oversize tubing often produces an excessively stiff frame which requires frequent shifts to very close adjacent gears to avoid bogging down -- unlike his Singers <cut>
'hard not to personalize this, but i use OS tubing and have
since the early 90s. what is excessively stiff atmo?

[mosca]

Jan doesn't strike me as a "retro-grouch", or someone who likes old things for superficial reasons, so it's interesting that he has arrived at a bicycle configuration that, basically, already existed 30-odd years ago.

Not sure what my point is here, so I'll just say thanks to Jan for "keepin' it real", and congratulations on an excellent ride.

[mschol17]

are there any builders or industry types that get this?

'hard not to personalize this, but i use OS tubing and have
since the early 90s. what is excessively stiff stmo?

e-RICHIE, I've seen you make this point before, and I think it's a legitimate one. What sort of effect are we talking about here? 10%? 1%? I don't think a computer model of the system will happen, since it's an extremely complicated problem. It's going to take a powertap rear wheel and a crankset powermeter and several different test bikes. The question is if the effect is large enough wrt the error of the power meters to make the data meaningful.

[Steelhead]

What is also cool about this guy is that I had email him awhile back about finding a copy of his Bicycle Quarterly somewhere here in Austin. He answered me promptly and was super friendly and enthusiastic.

The last communication was that he looked forward to following up with me in a few days, as he was leaving in the morning for PBP.....I didn't ever hear a mention that he was a super bad a** and going over there to kick some Euro tale! I just figured he was going over there for fun and to write about it.

Anyway - that was really cool that he was emailing back and forth with me about his mag. the night before he left for such a monster endeavor. Bravo !

[Steve Hampsten]

I started riding and racing in 1974 and I've owned and ridden a bunch of different bikes.

My take is that "planing" = "flex". Jan likes a flexy bike and will go to great lengths to prove why one thing is better than another.

We like what we like, say I. Some of my bikes have some flex, others have a stiffer feel. Both are good, neither leaves me wanting.

YMMV

[Kines]

"The Competitive Side of Randonneuring", By Jan Heine and Melinda Lyon:

http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/EN/index.php?showpage=22

Thanks for the link - it explains it all perfectly.

It's kinda cute - the manners and the old bikes and all, but I still prefer racing.

KN

[Bruce K]

Did we all kinda miss the comment in the middle of all this that RA might have abandoned?

If that is true, I know she will be heartbroken.

She has been planning, training, and basically working every waking moment to get the funds, and the fitness to make this attempt.

If she did have to abandon, I hope that we will all give here a little "love" for the attempt.

Hopefully, all of our Forum brethren and sistern are OK.

BK

[Darrell]

are there any builders or industry types that get this?

'hard not to personalize this, but i use OS tubing and have
since the early 90s. what is excessively stiff stmo?

One cannot make more energy from nothing.
So "Planing" advocates are saying a more flexible frame is absorbing less muscle energy that would be used to pull the chain.
Are they trying say that the stiffer frame tubes are heating up more. {energy transfer} so the tension on the chain that is pulling the top of the rear sprocket over is less than on a more flexible planing frame.
{I think to the contrary}
Or some how, the harmonic synchronisation of the rider's pedaling matches the frame's harmonics and increases the energy or effciency of the biomechanics of the rider thus more force on the chain.
If the later is so, then it would exist in only an extremly narrow band of circumstances. Exact cadence, exact power out put on the pedals etc.
Different size rider, rider weight on the frame would throw it all out the window.
I understand the concept of stored energy being released durng the pedal stroke, but it does not make more energy! If this is taken into account and if a stiffer frame does not plane, then where does the energy wasted go to?
Jan has yet to show power or force or vo2 data to show "planing" exists.
Advocates have not yet to my mind been able to explain with any substance what "planing" is.
Pedal force direction from the rider's technique makes a huge difference and that can be and has been measured. {special pedals and a SRM on the vo2 machine etc}
NAH. I don't get it, or believe it is so.
But it can make a good sales pitch.

[Fixed]

bro this a great thread imho
so many cats buy the same bike over and over they will have almost the same thing sitting around with different names on the tubes . imho if you got six bikes i think you owe it to yourself to have one of these go anywhere bikes
as times change we might all be needing bikes like the pbp bikes .there is an old saying ..to know the new you have to understand the old ...
they are the different sides of the same coin . imho
man you cats know you stuff this the most fun i've had reading in a while .and no one's got mad yet .cheers :beer:

[72gmc]

We like what we like, say I.

+7.3

I like that people who post here were over there givin'er. Looking forward to tales of heroism and anguish.

[Darrell]

Sorry to ask a stupid question. I noticed that he has fenders. Now, if one is trying to finish in a certain amount of time, then the lighter the load, the faster one can ride. So the questions is, if the weather looks to be fair for the 2-3 days expected to ride the PBP, would it make sense for one to take off the fenders?

Lose 500 grams of blubber on one's body = a performance gain
Or more to the point, the training to lose the 500 grams of blubber = the performance gain.

Gladdies, you got to realise, todays bikes do not put more watts on the pedals than a bike of ten, 20, 50 years ago.
{the market forces will tell you differently}
Today's bikes may be a bit lighter by a kg or 2 kg, but that measures to almost nothing in reality on the road.
One should look in the mirror, grab a pinch of skin here and there and admit ........... 1, 5, 10 kgs!!!?????
The more involved and serious one gets with their cycling, the more you understand, it is about the rider and the ride. Not tech bull, blah blah blah.
The bike is a just the tool, one rides.
Fenders would have been perfect in the rain. A drier ride, less fatigue.
Jan was obviously in top form and using a good tool for the job!
Well done Jan.

[mschol17]

One cannot make more energy from nothing.

Or some how, the harmonic synchronisation of the rider's pedaling matches the frame's harmonics and increases the energy or effciency of the biomechanics of the rider thus more force on the chain.
If the later is so, then it would exist in only an extremly narrow band of circumstances. Exact cadence, exact power out put on the pedals etc.
Different size rider, rider weight on the frame would throw it all out the window.

Pedal force direction from the rider's technique makes a huge difference and that can be and has been measured. {special pedals and a SRM on the vo2 machine etc}
NAH. I don't get it, or believe it is so.
But it can make a good sales pitch.

Dazza, you're certainly right that you can't make energy from nothing, and I don't think that Jan is saying that (in fact I know he isn't saying that). I think it has to do something with the resonance modes of the bike and the related biomechanical efficiency, like you said. The fact that Mark VandeKamp and Jan experience similar effects on similar bikes makes me think that the rider's mass doesn't have a large influence on the twisting-mode resonances subject to the bike by the drivetrain torque.
I think I have read somewhere that the average cadence of the hour record holder over the years was remarkably similar (except maybe Obree), even though they presumably rode very different bicycles. This might imply that there is some biomechanically favored cadence, and it would make sense to tune the bike to that cadence.
You can't make energy out of nothing, but you're going to get a much larger response driving something on resonance in phase than you will far off resonance. Think of a swing.

[jerk]

are there any builders or industry types that get this?

'hard not to personalize this, but i use OS tubing and have
since the early 90s. what is excessively stiff stmo?


excessively stiff? i'm just happy to be here.

as far as i know, no; no one in the industry or any builder has any clue what jan is talking about...if he brought it up in polite conversation with me, i'd smile and nod uncomfortably like you do when crazy uncle louie gives up team wild turkey for team christ and wants to talk to you about it....but i digress.

here's the thing- those bikes work for jan because they work. would a modern os tubed bike work better? how the heck should i know; it'd be a bit lighter and a bit tougher and probably look better with modern parts on it and i'd also reckon for a bigger rider it wouldn't squirm around as much....

i've only ever had one bike that could be described as "excessivly stiff" and its nasty habits over bad roads at slow speeds had more to do with geometry than tube selection imho bro.

jerk

[palincss]

are there any builders or industry types that get this?

'hard not to personalize this, but i use OS tubing and have
since the early 90s. what is excessively stiff stmo?

The J.P. Weigle randonneur that BQ tested last year was made from OS tubing, and proved to not be excessively stiff (i.e., "planed' like crazy, once they got the hang of how to get in sync with it). I don't know the thickness of that tubing, but there is a member of this forum who does; perhaps he can say.

The Terraferma Race tested in the most recent BQ was made of True Temper Platinum OX (7/4/7) in standard gauge, "...among the most flexible steel tubing used on performance bicycles. ... It appears that the flexible frame allows my pedal stroke to get in sync with the bike, explaining its extraordinary performance." (BQ, Vol. 5 No. 4, p. 35). Later in the issue, Jan goes on to say "Riding numerous bikes, we have concluded that for us, lightweight tubing, especially in standard diameters, is the defining characteristic of a bike that planes. Other factors can be eliminated." (ibid., p. 37)

[e-RICHIE]

The J.P. Weigle randonneur that BQ tested last year was made from OS tubing, and proved to not be excessively stiff (i.e., "planed' like crazy, once they got the hang of how to get in sync with it).

what does that mean atmo?




The Terraferma Race tested in the most recent BQ was made of True Temper Platinum OX (7/4/7) in standard gauge, "...among the most flexible steel tubing used on performance bicycles. <cut>
that frame had what was also an excessively short
front center for a 58cm size bicycle of any type,
much less that type. i'm at a loss to see how a frame
that big with a 57.9cm fc would work efficiently atmo.

[Steve Hampsten]

"Riding numerous bikes, we have concluded that for us, lightweight tubing, especially in standard diameters, is the defining characteristic of a bike that planes. Other factors can be eliminated." (ibid., p. 37)

Really, I'm not trying to take away from his accomplishments at PBP - which are impressive, but there are two conversations here.

As I said earlier, he likes flexy frames and so does Mark. Nothing wrong with that. But is there anyone else on this forum, or that anyone has talked to, anywhere, who gets that a flexy bike is better than the alternative? I don't buy the whole "stiffer is better" argument but sometimes modern things aren't always worse.

And how can something "plane like crazy"? And does it make sense for a reviewer/researcher/writer to coin a phrase that describes ONLY his impressions and those of one other person, yet cause the rest of the world to scratch their heads in befuddlement?

Sometimes a bike is just a bike, and a ride is just a ride.

[Ray]

are there any builders or industry types that get this?

I'm neither but I've seen 'planing' discussed about 36.5 times in various discussions and I have NO friggin' idea what they're talking about. Do some bikes seem to climb better than others? Yep. Do some respond to out of the saddle efforts better than others? Sort of - some feel like it, but probably not measurably until you start talking about real station wagon touring bikes. But when the road goes up, my choice of gears depends on how UP it goes and how I'm feeling that day. Some days I stay in the saddle and shift to an easier gear (or two or three or whatever the hill requires) and sometimes I'll stand up and 'power' over it in the gear I'm in or, at least, a higher gear than I'd have been in seated. But that's not bike dependent - that's ME dependent.

I don't get it. Maybe its an initial thing?

-Ray

[e-RICHIE]

I don't get it. Maybe its an initial thing?

-Ray
levity from bro ray.
i heart this sh1t atmo!!!!!!!!!



ps
arrange disorder atmo
:D :D :D
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:) :) :cool:

[mschol17]

I'm sorry for my naive question, but does front-center help determine weight distribution and handling, or does it somehow contribute to drivetrain response as well? The front end isn't tied down and laterally triangulated like the rear end is.
I know there was a long front-center discussion previously, but I didn't really follow it, other than the handling of the bike is about more than trail.

[palincss]

So we've talked about strength/power and we've talked about equipment. But there's another really important factor that should be mentioned: PBP strategic and tactical shrewdness, or "riding smart."

Articles in BQ have analyzed how changes in equipment, aerodynamics, weight carried, etc., can affect riding time (weight was almost insignificant; tire rolling resistance had the greatest affect). Other articles have discussed technique: examined different ways of running pacelines to optimize group riding, discussed how best to train, how to ride most efficiently (pushing big gears downhill is much less efficient than coasting in an aero tuck). The current issue of BQ has an article "Avoiding the Crowds During Paris-Brest-Paris" (Vol. 5 No. 4, p.49) that analyzes the bottlenecks at the various checkpoints on PBP, showing the best times to avoid the long lines, where huge amounts of time can be lost)

Other articles have made it clear that he plans the rides meticulously - I recall one that included a photo of a brevet cue sheet with his hand-written cue-by-cue annotations. The "300K brevet on a 1952 Rene Herse" article mentioned how he practiced bleeding the tires down for the 30km gravel section and counted how many pump strokes it took to get the back up to paved-road pressure, so that he could optimally adjust tire pressure without wasting time measuring.

This adds up to a whole lot more than simply a strong rider on a highly suitable bike. It sounds to me a lot like the focused analytical approach to the Tour de France that characterized Lance and the USPS team.

[Louis]

I think it has to do something with the resonance modes of the bike and the related biomechanical efficiency, like you said. The fact that Mark VandeKamp and Jan experience similar effects on similar bikes makes me think that the rider's mass doesn't have a large influence on the twisting-mode resonances subject to the bike by the drivetrain torque.

You can't make energy out of nothing, but you're going to get a much larger response driving something on resonance in phase than you will far off resonance. Think of a swing.

Mschol17, I know you aren't arguing the point yourself, but I just have to laugh when I read stuff like this.

Just because someone can ride a bike far and fast that doesn't mean everything that comes out of this mouth is gospel.

Louis

[e-RICHIE]

This adds up to a whole lot more than simply a strong rider on a highly suitable bike.


a strong rider on a highly suitable bike = planing atmo.




ps
arrange disorder
:confused: :confused: :confused:
;) ;) :D
:D :D :)

[Darrell]

Snipped

You can't make energy out of nothing, but you're going to get a much larger response driving something on resonance in phase than you will far off resonance. Think of a swing.

Jan and Mark say the bike goes faster for the same amount of energy.
or for the same speed one uses less energy if planing.

That means more torque at the rear hub for the pedal effort.

Why is there different amounts of torque at the hub with frames that plane and don't plane.
No one has explained the mechanics of the "Planing Frame"
How does it work, happen, rider inter action etc.
Unlike rowing, paddling, swinging a bat against a ball, that has been explained.
Where is the energy loss in a "Non Planing" frame????????
If they could, can, then race frames would designed to plane, especially for TT, pursuit, etc.
No one in the world I know, knew of the existance of planing till VBQ spoke of it. Maybe it was once a constructeur's sales pitch, but in 30 years I have never heard of it before.

BTW I totally dig BVQ -BQ mag!!!!!!

[Darrell]

a strong rider on a highly suitable bike = planing atmo.




ps
arrange disorder
:confused: :confused: :confused:
;) ;) :D
:D :D :)

BINGO

[72gmc]

Just add "in my head" to any sentence that mentions planing on a bicycle. It's like eating fortune cookies no?

[Darrell]

Gladdies, help me out

How does one design a bike that planes?

How does one make a bike that planes?

Maybe this could be the way to seeking the solution to the mystery.

[don compton]

does anyone see a parallel here with baseball: an aluminum(flexy) bat vs. a wood( very little flex) bat. or golf: modern grafite shafts( more flex without unnecessary twisting) vs steel shafts. maybe a little flex can save some energy lost in a peddle stroke. aluminum bats and grafite shafts have certainly been factors in allowing players to hit the ball farther in their respective sports. aluminum bats aren't even allowed in the majors or else who would have the guts to play third base. just a thought.
don c.

[Steve Hampsten]

What Darrell said: BQ rocks!

Jan is a heck of a good guy. And a strong rider with great organizational skills.

I just don't get this planing thing, nor his insistence that a low-trail geometry is good for everything.

[Steve Hampsten]

Gladdies, help me out

How does one design a bike that planes?

How does one make a bike that planes?

Maybe this could be the way to seeking the solution to the mystery.

1" top tube, 1.125" down tube, randonnee geometry, light tubing

See my next bike

(yawn)

[palincss]

I just don't get this planing thing, nor his insistence that a low-trail geometry is good for everything.

I don't believe Jan would endorse the statement that "low trail geometry is good for everything." Quite the opposite. See 'How to Design a Well-Handling Bicycle," BQ Vol. 5 No. 3, p. 42.

[swoop]

i think the problem with talking to builders about 'planing' is that it suggests its a property of the bike. planing, if there is such thing, is a process of the mind. its a psychological experience rather than a physical property of the frame. and we all know so much of biking happens between the ears.

i'll bet we can show the areas of the brain that are firing during 'planing' rather than represent planing structuraly on the bike with computer modeling..

it sounds to me like an emotional sens ation rather than a physical experience. like its an emotional interpretation of a physical experience.

the thing about biking is that between the breathing and the reptitive motion and the adrenaline... it isn't too many clicks away from the natives dancing around the fire in order to alter their consciousness. i think you can achieve planing doing kundalini yoga too.


and frankly.. all this other stuff about what bike is good for what... or what tube sets are good for what... is just bs. you ride what you like.
the rationale is an emotional thing too.

that's just my opinion.

[palincss]

and frankly.. all this other stuff about what bike is good for what... or what tube sets are good for what... is just bs. you ride what you like.
the rationale is an emotional thing too.

that's just my opinion.

Go bolt a big Wald basket to the handlebar of one of e-Richie's race bikes, go buy a couple of 12-packs of Pepsi down at your local CVS and ride 'em home; or maybe, show up for your pacelining "group ride" on a Dutch "Oma", and then let's talk about whether all this stuff about "what bike is good for what" is "just BS" or not.

[Nick H.]

Regarding the fenders, they actually made him a lot faster, because nobody will ride in a group in a wet randonnée with anybody without fenders. PBP is not a race, so why let anyone take your wheel if you can't take their wheel without getting a faceful of crap?

There used to be a rule that fenders were obligatory for randonnées and audaxes. I think they've relaxed the rule now...but it's still regarded as ignorant and selfish to turn up without them if there's a chance of rain. And the camaraderie of these events takes precedence over a 'win at all costs' attitude. The five first men to finish the 2003 PBP were penalized by 2 hours for unsportsmanlike behaviour. At least one is now banned.

[Steve Hampsten]

Maybe it would be more accurate for me to say that Jan is much more enthusiastic about low trail geometry, even when a front bag isn't being used, than am I. He is certainly entitled to his opinion but I spend a fair amount of time dissuading some of my customers from drinking too deeply from that particular well, if you catch my drift.

[e-RICHIE]

it sounds to me like an emotional sens ation rather than a physical experience. like its an emotional interpretation of a physical experience.


atmo -

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1362/6001_0015.jpg

[swoop]

Go bolt a big Wald basket to the handlebar of one of e-Richie's race bikes, go buy a couple of 12-packs of Pepsi down at your local CVS and ride 'em home; or maybe, show up for your pacelining "group ride" on a Dutch "Oma", and then let's talk about whether all this stuff about "what bike is good for what" is "just BS" or not.

that's not what i said (i didn't put it in enough context).... it is what i said but it's too literal a reading of it). a road bike is not good for downhill mtn biking. you clearly have to use the right spoon for the right desert.... but theres still tons of spoons to choose from.

[Big Dan]

Which one planes?

Cannondale Caad3
Vitus 979



:confused:

[72gmc]

Which one planes?

Which one is being ridden at a respectable following distance behind Rebecca Twigg? That's the one that is planing.

[Fixed]

swoop get them bro .imho
cheers

[mschol17]

My point of view, as a physics graduate student, is that Jan has proposed a theory, and someone should be able to test it to prove or disprove it.

Like I said before, if it's true, with a couple of powermeters we should at least be able to put a bound on how true or untrue the theory is. I don't think this test is beyond the scope of BQ, since supposedly the next issue is going to have wind tunnel aerodynamics testing. That's certainly a lot more testing equipment than will be required here.

So, I propose a solution to the argument/discussion. I will volunteer my services as a tester, accepting bikes from e-RICHIE, Peter Weigle, Hampsten, and some "laterally stiff but vertically compliant" modern racer bikes. We'll plot the power transfer to the rear wheel as a function of cadence, gear, heart rate, and other variables. If something shows up, then we know its a real physical effect. Otherwise, we'll send me and the bikes to Swoop, who can MRI my brain while I ride all the bikes :banana:

[39cross]

planing is now completely old-skool....bi-planing is the new kool.

On an unrelated PBP note, it looks like dauwhe may have dropped out...I hope not.

[Grant McLean]

My personal PBP 2011 training strategy will be to seed all internet forums
with constant threads about trail and planing at regular intervals.
If this goes according to plan, i'll likely be the only one on the start line,
as these discussions bring out all the randoneurs, and keeps them off their bikes.

:)

g

[swoop]

oy. edited because it wasn't even lame enough to be funny. don't read this. i blame the ....

[stevep]

i did not read the whole thread. my brain does not plane that well... but the guy can pedal no doubt.
i know a lot a great riders who dont know anything about bikes.
he certainly does know what he likes... but some of the theories?
dont read a lot into it.
doesnt mean anything.
stiff, plane, blah, blah , blah...all bs

[Too Tall]

J.G., yes and no. Lots of fast riders and others who finish not so fast riding "rmodern production race bikes" (allow me that broad strokeO are successful in spite of rather than because of the bike. The old school bikes designed spec. for this ride and type of riding have VERY forgiving ride qualities...they are soft, large volume tyres and down right slow steering. Think about it, fatigue is a deciding factor in these events. Steady smooth riding bike is the right stuff. Of COURSE you can be successful with the other....but the point that can not be lost is that folks have lost touch with the "why".

[Too Tall]

One cannot make more energy from nothing.
So "Planing" advocates are saying a more flexible frame is absorbing less muscle energy that would be used to pull the chain.
Are they trying say that the stiffer frame tubes are heating up more. {energy transfer} so the tension on the chain that is pulling the top of the rear sprocket over is less than on a more flexible planing frame.
{I think to the contrary}
Or some how, the harmonic synchronisation of the rider's pedaling matches the frame's harmonics and increases the energy or effciency of the biomechanics of the rider thus more force on the chain.
If the later is so, then it would exist in only an extremly narrow band of circumstances. Exact cadence, exact power out put on the pedals etc.
Different size rider, rider weight on the frame would throw it all out the window.
I understand the concept of stored energy being released durng the pedal stroke, but it does not make more energy! If this is taken into account and if a stiffer frame does not plane, then where does the energy wasted go to?
Jan has yet to show power or force or vo2 data to show "planing" exists.
Advocates have not yet to my mind been able to explain with any substance what "planing" is.
Pedal force direction from the rider's technique makes a huge difference and that can be and has been measured. {special pedals and a SRM on the vo2 machine etc}
NAH. I don't get it, or believe it is so.
But it can make a good sales pitch.

Thanks for that. Foks really need to wave their hand like a Jedi if they are going to say "this bike planes" ok?! I can NOT take that statement seriously...at least not while I'm conscious.

Anywho this thread is about a fantastic accomplishment by J.H. You go boy :)

[Fixed]

nice t.t. so you want a bike that when you nod out for a few secs. it doesn't dump you on the ground or.. rattle your brain after long sections of rough road .kinda streers by it 's self ? cheers bro .

[J.Greene]

And how can something "plane like crazy"? And does it make sense for a reviewer/researcher/writer to coin a phrase that describes ONLY his impressions and those of one other person, yet cause the rest of the world to scratch their heads in befuddlement?
.

He'd be more convincing if he let his legs do the talking.

Jan knows a lot, the problem is that not all of it is true.

JG

[don compton]

trek soften their bikes. jan and trek get it. the rest of you don't . :banana:

[Louis]

trek soften their bikes. jan and trek get it. the rest of you don't

Don, thanks for that most insightful and convincing argument. You really get it!

[don compton]

why in today's world should we listen to racers( especially sprinters) about how our bikes should be designed and set up? it seems that a sprinter's bike( ala peccachi) is set up for the last minute of his ride. we don't ride 40mph. perfect for him, but how about us? there is something to slightly bigger tires on less than perfect pavement. just look at what they ride in paris-roubais. jan heine has some interesting thought about long distance riding. :beer:

[Orin]

Or some how, the harmonic synchronisation of the rider's pedaling matches the frame's harmonics and increases the energy or effciency of the biomechanics of the rider thus more force on the chain.
If the later is so, then it would exist in only an extremly narrow band of circumstances. Exact cadence, exact power out put on the pedals etc.
Different size rider, rider weight on the frame would throw it all out the window.

Well, like other resonant effect, such an effect would occur at different power/cadence for different riders/frames and Jan has mentioned that some frames need more power...

I understand the concept of stored energy being released durng the pedal stroke, but it does not make more energy! If this is taken into account and if a stiffer frame does not plane, then where does the energy wasted go to?

My personal opinion is that any energy used to twist the frame in a direction that is orthogonal to that of the pedal rotation is wasted, it's returned in the same direction and either dissipates in the leg muscles (wasted) or helps decelerate the leg at the bottom of the pedal stroke (potentially useful).

Orin.

[coylifut]

a couple of pounds of psi either way will have far more effect than frame stiffnes. this idea of planing goes far beyond what Mr. Miyagi would have dreamed up. it sounds to me he's describing more of a metaphysical experience as opposed to a mechanical one. oh, and a guy who can ride like that is a rolling metaphysical experience.

[RIHans]

The everyday bike rider trying to debate bike geometry and fabrication with Richie Sachs. Kind of reminds me of Muhammad Ali fighting Ennie Turrell..."What's my name?SMASH What's my name? SMASH"

Jerk hit it on the head.

[3chordwonder]

Hmm... hero worship... blind faith... I'll pass.

[Fixed]

bro the cat sends hours riding around on a bike that is what he knows ...
movies .....anyone see the big blue ..these kinda of cats can be a little off .imho
cheers

[dave1215]

http://flickr.com/photos/49353569@N00/553732027/

[R2D2]

Well my brother rolled home.
I don't know if his bike "planed" or not.
But it went out and back.
GO BRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[J.Greene]

Well my brother rolled home.
I don't know if his bike "planed" or not.
But it went out and back.
GO BRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

awesome


JG

[sc53]

Rita Ann abandoned at stage 9 (on the way home) and Dauwe (Dave Cramer) at stage 2. A friend of mine (my sister's brother-in-law--so my brother-in-law-law?) just eked home to the finish covered in blisters and wet clothes, miserable that he missed his RAAM cutoff time by 4 hrs. At least it wasn't 4 minutes, we told him.

[J.Greene]

Rita Ann abandoned at stage 9 (on the way home) and Dauwe (Dave Cramer) at stage 2. A friend of mine (my sister's brother-in-law--so my brother-in-law-law?) just eked home to the finish covered in blisters and wet clothes, miserable that he missed his RAAM cutoff time by 4 hrs. At least it wasn't 4 minutes, we told him.

all heroes in my book!

JG

[Tom Byrnes]

all heroes in my book!

JG


Mine, too!!

[Fixed]

me 3

[jerk]

look at these guys. they know how to plane.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PXQMw4n29qU

jerk

[jl123]

Reading this thread reminds me of how sour and negative people can be- indeed it seems to be the natural order for so many of us from among so many cultures/civilizations.

It easy to notice on this thread that many esteemed industry types haven't so much as lifted a finger in praise for Jan's achievement- or at most they offer only the slightest "I'll acknowledge that he did a good job, however", Bull-s .

The man (Jan) accomplished an absolutely difficult and amazing, what I would call a life-time achievement for anyone- regardless of their politics. Instead of all the criticism- which so many here have labored so hard at for the longest, why not use this time to simply congratulate the man in some sincere way?? and without all the negativity???- give him a moment of respect.

The more I read these posts the more a agree with Freud, the ego truly is the force (speaking of energy) to be reckoned with.

Lets give this a try:

Congratulations Jan, you obviously worked super hard and dedicated yourself with mind/body, heart and soul; and you rode as hard as you dared in really bad conditions for hundreds and hundreds of miles, you gave it everything you had, and rode the PBP faster than most ever did. Bicycling and all its aspects- travel, equipment, technique, practice, training etc, mean an awful lot to you and I can see from the pictures taken at PBP that there's a lot of pride deep within, pride which I'll gladly recall and apply to my own life challenge's. I'll remember your huge effort and will power for a long time, Jeremy.

[classic1]

Gladdies, help me out

How does one design a bike that planes?

How does one make a bike that planes?

Maybe this could be the way to seeking the solution to the mystery.

You need to get NASA involved IMO ATMO FWIW AFAIK


http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/f/f3/Gossamer_Albatross_II.jpg

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/Albatross/Small/ECN-12665.jpg

[cpg]

Reading this thread reminds me of how sour and negative people can be- indeed it seems to be the natural order for so many of us from among so many cultures/civilizations.

It easy to notice on this thread that many esteemed industry types haven't so much as lifted a finger in praise for Jan's achievement- or at most they offer only the slightest "I'll acknowledge that he did a good job, however", Bull-s .

The man (Jan) accomplished an absolutely difficult and amazing, what I would call a life-time achievement for anyone- regardless of their politics. Instead of all the criticism- which so many here have labored so hard at for the longest, why not use this time to simply congratulate the man in some sincere way?? and without all the negativity???- give him a moment of respect.

The more I read these posts the more a agree with Freud, the ego truly is the force (speaking of energy) to be reckoned with.

Lets give this a try:

Congratulations Jan, you obviously worked super hard and dedicated yourself with mind/body, heart and soul; and you rode as hard as you dared in really bad conditions for hundreds and hundreds of miles, you gave it everything you had, and rode the PBP faster than most ever did. Bicycling and all its aspects- travel, equipment, technique, practice, training etc, mean an awful lot to you and I can see from the pictures taken at PBP that there's a lot of pride deep within, pride which I'll gladly recall and apply to my own life challenge's. I'll remember your huge effort and will power for a long time, Jeremy.


As an industry type (not sure of the esteem bit though) I did praise him in post #8. Perhaps the post's pithiness limited it's effect.

Curt

[Steve Hampsten]

Or maybe jl123 is pithed because we're discussing BQ instead of praising Jan.

Good job Jan!

Now, let's get back to discussing his magazine...

[mcteague]

????????? -

http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/Raketnet/Drama/AnnieHoofd_sm.jpg
That's Alvy Singer.

Tim McTeague

[e-RICHIE]

As an industry type (not sure of the esteem bit though) I did praise him in post #8. Perhaps the post's pithiness limited it's effect.

Curt
yeah what he said.
i lift my finger by paying all my bq ad invoices.
i have been in since the beginning, and many
have been full page-ers atmo.





ps
arrange disorder
:confused: :confused: :confused:
:butt: :butt: :butt:
:D :D :D

[Fixed]

bro is this thing a race ? this jan cat did he win ? who was the winner then and what kinda of bike did this cat use?
i know dumb questions
cheers :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

bro is this thing a race ? this jan cat did he win ? who was the winner then and what kinda of bike did this cat use?
i know dumb questions
cheers :beer:
i think chuck yaeger wins every year.
hey - 'just kidding.


ps
arrange disorder
:D :D :cool:
:p :cool: :)
:rolleyes: ;) :no:

[Bill D]

As an industry type (not sure of the esteem bit though) I did praise him in post #8. Perhaps the post's pithiness limited it's effect.

Curt

I'm not an industry type and have never read BQ, but I'll certainly heap some praise on the esteemed Mr. G for his use of the word "pithiness." Bravo for that. :beer:

[RIHans]

He always wins the damn TT. :crap:

It took sooo long to get through this thread...I'm tired!
Hans

[dauwhe]

bro is this thing a race ? this jan cat did he win ? who was the winner then and what kinda of bike did this cat use?
i know dumb questions
cheers :beer:

Randonneuring is officially non-competitive, and results are listed in alphabetical order. But of course there's prestige in being the first finisher. There's an article on the competitive side here:

http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/EN/index.php?showpage=22

Mr. Heine was by no means the first finisher (I think the fastest time was around 44:50), which doesn't take away from a very fast and impressive time, made more interesting by being done with an ultra-cool bike. But there were lots of impressive rides, including fellow New England Randonneurs Melinda Lyon in 56:30, and Dale Perzanowski and Brad Tanner in 52:45. Melinda and Dale are in their forties; Melinda has been the first female finisher twice.

And remember that this is a sport which I think is even more difficult for the slower riders. Most of my friends finished in 89:50, with little or no sleep. I admire them most of all, being on the road almost two days longer than the fast riders.

Dave

[cpg]

what does that mean atmo?



that frame had what was also an excessively short
front center for a 58cm size bicycle of any type,
much less that type. i'm at a loss to see how a frame
that big with a 57.9cm fc would work efficiently atmo.

Sorry for the late response to this dead horse but I just looked at the geometry in question. The drawing does show a 579 front center but this is either a typo or the rest of the geo doesn't match the drawing. If the geo is as drawn the front center sould be 589.

Curt

[e-RICHIE]

Sorry for the late response to this dead horse but I just looked at the geometry in question. The drawing does show a 579 front center but this is either a typo or the rest of the geo doesn't match the drawing. If the geo is as drawn the front center sould be 589.

Curt
what does that tell you atmo?

[cpg]

what does that tell you atmo?


Length matters or is it girth? I don't understand your question.

Curt

[e-RICHIE]

Length matters or is it girth? I don't understand your question.

Curt
i guess it speaks to the quality of the measurements. we had this
issue on the other thread; so much emphasis is put on these things
and the make claims based on this and on that, yet if the number is
correct, it is uncharacteristically small, and if it's wrong, it's wrong by
a zipcode atmo. are the numbers correct, or is the the quality of the
measurement gathering lackng atmo?

[cpg]

i guess it speaks to the quality of the measurements. we had this
issue on the other thread; so much emphasis is put on these things
and the make claims based on this and on that, yet if the number is
correct, it is uncharacteristically small, and if it's wrong, it's wrong by
a zipcode atmo. are the numbers correct, or is the the quality of the
measurement gathering lackng atmo?


I hear you. It could be a typo though and if that's the case then the wheelbase measurement is a typo too. Still I'm a fan of BQ. I don't subscribe to all of it but I can't think of too many things I'm completely insynch with. Anyway, you didn't answer my question.

Curt

[e-RICHIE]

I hear you. It could be a typo though and if that's the case then the wheelbase measurement is a typo too. Still I'm a fan of BQ. I don't subscribe to all of it but I can't think of too many things I'm completely insynch with. Anyway, you didn't answer my question.

Curt
yes i did; i was questioning the efficacy of the
numbers, or how they were measured, and/or
the conclusions rooted in them, especially if the
specs are incorrect atmo.

[palincss]

yes i did; i was questioning the efficacy of the
numbers, or how they were measured, and/or
the conclusions rooted in them, especially if the
specs are incorrect atmo.

No, actually, we were discussing frame tubing dimensions and what some might call "excessive stiffness". I said, and you quoted, and were replying to, the following:

The Terraferma Race tested in the most recent BQ was made of True Temper Platinum OX (7/4/7) in standard gauge, "...among the most flexible steel tubing used on performance bicycles."

and unless you are suggesting that front center has some relationship to stiffness, the accuracy of either the original measurement or its reproduction in BQ seems to me to be irrelevant. Are you suggesting front center is related to stiffness?

Perhaps it might be useful to ask you as a custom builder, is the desired stiffness in a frame something you discuss with a customer? Do you adjust tubing to influence it? If so, what qualities are those who seek a less stiff frame in search of?

[goonster]

yes i did; i was questioning the efficacy of the
numbers, or how they were measured, and/or
the conclusions rooted in them, especially if the
specs are incorrect atmo.

Your tangible support of the publication buys you a lot of slack, but I still think you're being too hard on the guy with respect to the measurements. (Of course, it's possible that you and I have different expectations of this data.)

This issue with the front center sounds like an honest mistake. Drop the guy a line. If he goofed, he'll publish a correction.

You may not like the +/- 3 mm, but at least he tries to quantify that. I think we all agree that this is not close to an acceptable tolerance for a builder, but when you are checking out an old bike for which no build sheet is available . . . whatcha gonna do? Would you prefer that BQ not publish measured dimensions at all?

You need to lend Jan a mystery frame. Have him measure it and post the results. If he's on, the matter is settled. If he's off, you can add "BQ is a nice rag, but the measurements are worth ****" to all your ads.

:beer:

[e-RICHIE]

Your tangible support of the publication buys you a lot of slack, but I still think you're being too hard on the guy with respect to the measurements. (Of course, it's possible that you and I have different expectations of this data.)

This issue with the front center sounds like an honest mistake. Drop the guy a line. If he goofed, he'll publish a correction.

You may not like the +/- 3 mm, but at least he tries to quantify that. I think we all agree that this is not close to an acceptable tolerance for a builder, but when you are checking out an old bike for which no build sheet is available . . . whatcha gonna do? Would you prefer that BQ not publish measured dimensions at all?

You need to lend Jan a mystery frame. Have him measure it and post the results. If he's on, the matter is settled. If he's off, you can add "BQ is a nice rag, but the measurements are worth ****" to all your ads.

:beer:

if the measurements are off, and the minions are all wet and sticky
about the published results of the "test", the next step is that the
measurements in question become the standard for the next wave
of wet and sticky frames. on the surface, i have no real problem
with that, but i do yearn for a higher standard - and that is what
i have come to expect from the zine. if i am not mistaken, it wants
to mimic an academic pub in respect that all facts are checked and
checked again, and then footnoted when needed. in my world (as
a matter of fact, in any world where the word tolerance is used)
a standard of plus/minus 3mm is sub par. i wrestle with bad measuring
habits, and i wrestle with testers attaching importance to a bicycle
that is poorly measured because that sets off the chain of events that
i noted earlier.

i like and support the magazine, and i have articulated all of my concerns
to the publisher.

[Darrell]

:beer: :beer:
if the measurements are off, and the minions are all wet and sticky
about the published results of the "test", the next step is that the
measurements in question become the standard for the next wave
of wet and sticky frames. on the surface, i have no real problem
with that, but i do yearn for a higher standard - and that is what
i have come to expect from the zine. if i am not mistaken, it wants
to mimic an academic pub in respect that all facts are checked and
checked again, and then footnoted when needed. in my world (as
a matter of fact, in any world where the word tolerance is used)
a standard of plus/minus 3mm is sub par. i wrestle with bad measuring
habits, and i wrestle with testers attaching importance to a bicycle
that is poorly measured because that sets off the chain of events that
i noted earlier.

i like and support the magazine, and i have articulated all of my concerns
to the publisher.