does too much carbon fiber dull the experience?

[dave1215]

So, I've been inspired by this forum to get a Serotta road bike and, looking at what I want to spend, I've been thinking Legend, Concours or Fierte IT (hey, if stock fits, wear it ;) ).

Yesterday, I test rode a Fierte IT which happened to be the right size for me. That thing sure accelerates quickly, corners smoothly and responds to every command. But, I must say, it was like riding on a high tech simulator or with double condoms - I totally lost the feel of the surface. Is it because of the carbon downtube, top tube and seat stays? (oh, also, it had a carbon seatpost)

Now, admittedly, I'm coming from steel so perhaps it is just too big a transition and I should focus on Legend or Concours (more ti, less cf). But are speed and comfort so important in cycling that we're willing to lose the road experience?

[Richard]

"...we're willing to lose the road experience?"

I'm in your camp. I love the road experience/feel and even found that a Legend ST was too "muted" for my tastes (I sold it). I had a local builder build me a new lugged steel bike out of the latest high zoot steel and am loving it despite the extra pound.

That said, the road experience/feel is very personal and to bemoan someone elses loss of a value you perceive as important is a pretty difficult position to take.

[Len J]

"...we're willing to lose the road experience?"

I'm in your camp. I love the road experience/feel and even found that a Legend ST was too "muted" for my tastes (I sold it). I had a local builder build me a new lugged steel bike out of the latest high zoot steel and am loving it despite the extra pound.

That said, the road experience/feel is very personal and to bemoan someone elses loss of a value you perceive as important is a pretty difficult position to take.

your experience of a bike is a function of the bike you are coming from, not the one that you are on. It's a function of your definition of what a good bike is which comes from what you have ridden.

If the steel bike you were riding for several years was very harsh and stiff (for example), than IME, a more compliant bike might feel "Muted".

Len

[Fixed]

bro I only know my steel Fierte rode way better than the 5500 trek I had ..what kind of wheels did the test bike have .
cheers

[CPP]

Dave1215,
Try the same bike with tubulars.
CPP

[dave1215]

the road experience/feel is very personal and to bemoan someone elses loss of a value you perceive as important is a pretty difficult position to take.


hmmm, that's fair. i didn't mean to make value judgements. perhaps, i'm just trying to understand how i would enjoy the transition to a more muted ride.

[SWorks4me]

A well made bike, regardless of the material should allow you to "feel" the road, not isolate it from you.

I talk(d) to customers about this all the time.

at the risk of going OT and opening a useless debate, I use this analogy from personal experience:

A well made bike is not unlike a well made euro sport touring car. It allows you to work with the road, allows you to feel it yet gives you the comfort and security of a very solid ride.

An overbuilt, OR poorly made bike, again, regardless of material, is like a luxury Asian made car. once you close the door, you are completed isolated from the outside environment.

Again, the above comments are not meant to go off topic or pick a fight between Audi and Lexus owners...it has just been my expirinece with bikes and cars. People can identify with driving very easily.

[dave1215]

what kind of wheels did the test bike have .
cheers

fulcrum aluminum rim clinchers

[Fixed]

oh boy bro it's friday now we can have a cars and bikes thing goin..

[Richard]

Let's see -- Len, I agree that going from an overly harsh bike to something else may induce confusion, but I was comparing a Legend to my (still owned) CSI. FWIW, I have ridden and raced many, many bikes of varying quality in my way too many years. My point is that that the road experience is not quantifiable, as such, it is a purely subjective one. Much like the definition of art, pornography, good movies, etc. "...I know it when I see it."

SWorks kinda hits it, in a way. The subtlety is that road feel is different without a compromise in quality. The feel between BMW, Mercedes, Saab, all generally accepted examples of well made European sport touring cars is different. Hard to quantify, but people may like the feel of one over the other. The is a difference between quality steel, ti, carbon (of equal quality) in road feel. Some like one over the other.

Dave, you should ride a Ti or Carbon bike for a while and see. I bought a Legend for just that reason and found that I do like the feel of my steel bikes better. May have been the ST stay and perhaps I would have liked a traditional stayed bike better. Really doesn't matter. I will look for a quality carbon frame at some point to make another comparison.

[jghall]

with double condoms - I totally lost the feel of the surface.

Has to be one of the better lines.

[Ken Robb]

yep and you will be able to ride :beer: longer

[sg8357]

oh boy bro it's friday now we can have a cars and bikes thing goin..

We could talk about the feel of block chain vs. bushingless instead.

Scott G.

[fiamme red]

We could talk about the feel of block chain vs. bushingless instead.

Scott G.I changed the block chain on the Meivici for bushingless chain. The chain completely changed how the bike rode. My feeling is you need to test ride chains as much as you need to test ride frames.

;)

[Bradford]

...I agree with SWorks in his set up, but not his conclusion.

I wouldn't drive a Eurpoean sports car if you gave it to me for free. I hate all that road feel. However, I love the feel of a Japanese car, smooth and comfortable.

I've had an aluminum Trek, a steel IF, and now a Legend ST...I'll take the smooth ride of a Legend ST any day, hands down. I still own two steel bikes, but one is a tandem and one a touring bike, so both have tires big enough to mute the feel enough.

There is no right or wrong here, just figure out what you are looking for and get the bike that gives you that ride.

[Matt Barkley]

I have found too much of the carbon deadens' the ride (too much) :beer: - matt

(I may be going back to alu cranks)

[C5 Snowboarder]

My opinion is I am damn glad we have all the options and wide selection of bikes and automobiles of which everyone has spoke. :banana:

[Bob Ross]

perhaps, i'm just trying to understand how i would enjoy the transition to a more muted ride.

I have two road bikes: one is all carbon (CF frame, fork, seatpost, & cranks), the other is all steel (lugged 4130 CroMo). So many other things about the two are different that any comparison is apples-to-oranges, thus I don't pretend that the differences I feel are attributable solely to materials

...but, that being said, there is definitely a "zingy" or "electric" road feel to the steel bike, whereas the carbon bike feels...I suppose some might call it "muted" or "disconnected", but to me it feels like "floating on a cushion of air"

And I gotta tell you: I LOVE the transition from one to the other, especially from the steelie to the CF ride. I don't dislike either so much as I love being sensetive to the difference. I love travelling the same routes on the different bikes specifically so I can enjoy the experience of feeling the same roads translated through the different bikes & up into my body. It's almost sensual.

[Fixed]

I have found too much of the carbon deadens' the ride (too much) :beer: - matt

(I may be going back to alu cranks)
bro it makes me cough
cheers

[seanw]

it does not matter what you ride, its IF you ride. having said that, its the rider that ultimately decides what feels right. so, you rode the fierte IT. maybe all that carbon did make it too smooth for you. that is how i felt riding an ottrot on a 30 mile test ride. but i loved the legend st on a very similar test ride. bottom line, test ride. you will find what works for you. and all the bikes youre considering are awesome bikes.
good luck,
sean

[Fixed]

it's more about the rider than the bike
cheers

[1centaur]

How can steel be "smooth" and yet transmit tons of road feel? From my perspective, smooth is defined as transmitting less road feel, smooth is muted but not dead. It's not like I have any problem feeling the road enough to know what kind of surface I'm dealing with on any of my carbon fiber bikes. It's that I don't want or need the inherent transmission of extra vibrations via metal.

BTW, I love the relative isolation of my high end Acura. Not wallowy like old American sedans but thoughtfully comfortable in a very well engineered way. I'm picking up a pattern here - CF, Acura, Shimano are my preferences, all of them highly engineered for function and smoothness. Are the steel and Campy guys all BMW/Audi types?

[ti_boi]

I've heard people rave about carbon fiber -- it's cloud-like ride -- if i was say 50 lbs lighter and a lot more confident in the material itself, I'd be sold....as it is....my preference is going to naturally be 1. Ti....2. Steel.....3. Wood. :rolleyes:

[93legendti]

How can steel be "smooth" and yet transmit tons of road feel? From my perspective, smooth is defined as transmitting less road feel, smooth is muted but not dead. It's not like I have any problem feeling the road enough to know what kind of surface I'm dealing with on any of my carbon fiber bikes. It's that I don't want or need the inherent transmission of extra vibrations via metal.

BTW, I love the relative isolation of my high end Acura. Not wallowy like old American sedans but thoughtfully comfortable in a very well engineered way. I'm picking up a pattern here - CF, Acura, Shimano are my preferences, all of them highly engineered for function and smoothness. Are the steel and Campy guys all BMW/Audi types?

Steel is smooth and has an oh so pleasing response to input, like hitting ball after ball in the sweet spot of a tennis racket, or turning endless perfectly carved turns on nice packed powder--until I hit a piece of broken pavement, frost heaved road, pot hole or crack--which seems to be every 10-20 yards around here. Then, my amount of road feel is 4x what I like.

FWIW, I have Richard's old Legend ST:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=376760&postcount=2

and it is darn near perfect on my local roads. My Ottrott ST IS perfect on these roads...must be the carbon fiber. :)

[cleavel]

Hi,

I rode and raced all kinds of steel bikes for a very long time. I've also owned a few aluminum and titanium bikes, but I never owned a carbon bike until I bought a Look KG381i in 2003. I can now say that I'm hooked on carbon.

How a bike rides and how much road feel it has is much more a functions of geometry and tube shapes than material IMHO. I have ridden steel frames that feel very dead. Carbon frames do take some of the edge off road vibrations but I still have very good road feel with my Looks.

[vaxn8r]

Steel is smooth and has an oh so pleasing response to input, like hitting ball after ball in the sweet spot of a tennis racket, or turning endless perfectly carved turns on nice packed powder--until I hit a piece of broken pavement, frost heaved road, pot hole or crack--which seems to be every 10-20 yards around here. Then, my amount of road feel is 4x what I like.

FWIW, I have Richard's old Legend ST and it is darn near perfect on my local roads. My Ottrott ST IS perfect on these roads...must be the carbon fiber.
No bike feels good going over frost heaves or into pot holes ATMO.

[93legendti]

No bike feels good going over frost heaves or into pot holes ATMO.


My Ottrott ST feels great on the crappy roads I ride on day in and day out. I bet Ginger's (MA Martin) Terraplane does as well (we ride in the same county):

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=42841&postcount=2

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=31060&postcount=11

[C5 Snowboarder]

No bike feels good going over frost heaves or into pot holes ATMO.

It might if you are riding a Brooks B17 Ti Rails... :) :beer:

[93legendti]

It might if you are riding a Brooks B17 Ti Rails... :) :beer:

Or a Moots YBB, or my '99 Hors, or '02 Hors Cx.

'Course, I'm only talking about the roads in my home county. I wouldn't presume to talk about roads on which I have no personal riding experience.

[C5 Snowboarder]

Or a Moots YBB, or my '99 Hors, or '02 Hors Cx.

'Course, I'm only talking about the roads in my home county. I wouldn't presume to talk about roads on which I have no personal riding experience.

Well if we are talking personal riding experience then I will take my 178 GS Hot Blast snowboard down Peak to Creek run at Whistler BC - when it is grooomed of course. There has to be some CF in that board somewhere :beer: