OT: Gas Mileage for cars

[Smiley]

Back on some of the car forums I am lurking on I read many people discuss the published EPA gas mileage figures* and what they are getting in the real world with their cars.
I never trusted those stupid computers and still pull out my pocket calculator and figure it via Miles driven from Top off to gallons filled. Last road highway trip driving a Nissan Maxima 2002 with 255 hp under the hood was 26.5 mpg, Yeah the cops were out in force that trip.
Anyway curious to know your secrets for getting good gas mileage and what your driving and how do you make these numbers work. Thanks

* EPA has changed these figures for 2008 to reflect more real world driving using A/C and more stop and go for city driving.

[xlbs]

Since I almost live in my VW Jetta TDI some days of the week, I've found a few ways to save on fuel.

1) Buy a fuel efficient car--turbo direct injection diesel engines reign in this department. On a good day, with the speed control on and with moderate traffic, I've managed to hit about 45 miles per gallon (converted to US #'s from Canadian metrics.)

2) Avoid jack-rabbit starts. Well, try to at least.

3) Use a standard transmission, and monitor the tachometer.

4) Anticipate traffic patterns so as to avoid hard braking and rapid acceleration.

5) Keep those tire inflation pressures correct.

6) Wash that car. Apparently a dirty car can inhibit aerodynamic efficiency significantly at highway speeds. If I remember my ancient physics courses, air resistance is a cube function. If a car is dirty it's not slippery.

7) Relax.

[CNY rider]

Highway driving, with an automatic: Set the cruise control at a reasonable speed (the more reasonable, the better your mileage will be). In NY we have a 65 mph limit. I set the cruise in the upper 60's, get good mileage from my Subaru, and don't have to worry about speeding tickets.

Also, in highway driving use the A/C if it's warm out, rather than having windows open. Apparently the drag from open windows takes more of a toll on mpg than the A/C does.

[thejen12]

Ride your bike around town, and only use the car for long trips! :)

But seriously, long trips get great gas mileage if done at a reasonable speed. If I have to go across town and one way is on surface streets with traffic lights and the other is on the freeway, I'll take the freeway. Even if the freeway is crawling at 25 mph during rush hour, it's probably more gas efficient than the stop and go (unless the freeway is so bad that it's also stop and go).

Jenn

[eddief]

likes me to stand on it. but it has both a real time mpg meter right in front of your face and an accumulated one available via the on board computer. the real time one needs a piece of tape put over it cause it is just no fun to watch that thing except when going downhill.

seems to get about 19 in town, stop and go, and more like 25 in mixed. Have not taken it on a longish highway cruise yet, but i'm betting on about 28 in that sort of driving.

not sure how to make it better and if that was a real concern, i should probably have chosen something more tame.

[Squint]

Do a Google search for hypermiling

[Big Dan]

I get around 35 mpg on my 1.7ltr. 5 speed Honda Civic without trying too much.


:cool:

[Archibald]

Another Jetta TDI Wagon owner. An '05. The key to good mileage is a fuel efficient car. With 3 DH bikes on the roof, 3 adults in the car and a bunch of gear, the worst tank I've had was 39mpg on the highway. Best tank was just a tick over 50. We regularly go almost 600 miles between fillups with mostly city driving (not stop and go, just your average low speed stuff) and have been averaging just over 44mpg all around.

Fun car to drive, torquey little turbo diesel motor with plenty of power, and can go well over the speed limit loaded with folks and gear when taking 70 West out of Denver. You can easily buy 4 of them for the family for $100K with money left over to free some slaves and still get better combined mileage than a Porche Cayenne Turbo. Can't wait to try burning cooking oil in it. I love the smell of french fries in the morning!

[markie]

I get 28mpg from my automatic mini cooper S. It has paddle shifters and is quite good fun. I miss stick, but my wife just cannot work it.

I guess 28mpg is not awful, but not great for a small car. I have never tried driving it slowly. I had a plain stick mini cooper before and it would get 32mpg.

[SPOKE]

just ride you bicycle more. feeding you may be pretty cheap compared to a tank of gas :beer:

[regularguy412]

4-cylinder, VVT-i (variable valve timing), auto tranny w/ overdrive. I routinely get 26 mpg in town w/ a/c and 33 mpg on the highway @ 70 mph.

Mike in AR

[rwl]

06 Prius, 54.9 mpg lifetime avg
06 Highlander Hybrid, 26.2 mpg lifetime avg (wife's car)
03 Subaru WRX - 21.5 mpg lifetime
70 914-6 - maybe 20 mpg - never bother checking


The Prius is sort of a game to drive. the pulse & glide technique works - I've gotten 600 mile tanks out of the technique (63 mpg tank average). I do all the 'common' stuff for Prius bigots - 44 psi tires, synthetic, 1/4 qt underfill. Somehow, even driven politely (right hand lane, et al) it does engender the wrath of some drivers.

[Orin]

Various Audi quattros - about 22 mpg
Prius - 40 ish - about as entertaining as driving your refridgerator down the road.
Suzuki SV650 - about 50 mpg.

Orin.

[ti_boi]

My relatively tame, but torquey little 2.5L straight six (BMW) 05 model has about 180ish HP and was getting highway mileage on the last road trip....somewhere around the 29 mpg mark if I recall....It likes to ride around 80....(radar detector is a must.....it is red)

[chakatrain]

I find I get about 20mph in "sprited" city driving and maybe 23mph highway driving. Kinda sucks, but the turbo is very fun, indeed.

[keno]

one of the portals you may pass through as you age is not to care about gas mileage. You need to be mindful of only one thing - do I need to fill up. I hope this portal is in your near future. Incidentally, this is particularly important if you like to have fun driving your car.

Otherwise, don't drive it like you stole it.

keno

[christian]

Jetta TDIs are great, but the cost premium over a comparable Otto engine car means you need to drive many many miles to gain back the money.

I just try to limit my driving as much as possible.

- Christian

[BigDaddySmooth]

1.9l banger, 5 speed. Accelerate like there is a raw egg between your foot and the pedal. Glide to stops/downhills. Do not do like the fools out there who accelerate to get to the stop light 10 seconds before me only to slam on their brakes. :no: BTW, I replaced my brakes at the 100K mark w/this strategy.

Best ever--mid 40's while circumnavigating Yellowstone. Must have been the 6K+ altitude.

75mph+ down to Vegas from Salt Lake w/the missus and one suitcase still got me about 34-35.

Hauling about 400 pounds and my beagle mutt from SLC to Buffalo I got 32. I get the speed between 65-75 for most of the interstate trip

In the summer dealing w/the outskirts of DC traffic I get 31. and 27-28 in the winter. I drive 19 miles and it takes about 41 minutes so I spend alot of time at a red light or getting to a red light. :crap:

In sum, 4 cyclinders is fine for most driving. Anything more than 200 horses is really overkill. Sure you can get to 60mph quicker but so what. Once at speed, the little bimmer keeps up w/the gas guzzlers on the highway. :banana:

[dirtdigger88]

all depends

if Im on the highway on a long trip and able to stay in OD- 22 mpg

if I get on the loud pedal- 12 mpg

jason

[Ozz]

...Can't wait to try burning cooking oil in it. I love the smell of french fries in the morning!
Biodiesel plant opening in Grays Harbor County (http://www.komotv.com/news/9171047.html)

"The Imperium Renewables plant plans to produce 100 million gallons a year by the end of this year, using canola, soy and other crops to produce the fuel."

:beer:

[Archibald]

Jetta TDIs are great, but the cost premium over a comparable Otto engine car means you need to drive many many miles to gain back the money.

I just try to limit my driving as much as possible.

- Christian
Yeah, I don't remember how much the TDI cost more than the gas motor with the same options. The TDI demands the ESP traction control and some other stuff that's optional on the gas motors. Where I live, deisel also costs more than gas so when it comes to pure economics, there is no $ incentive to get the deisel, But, that ain't why we got it. We got it to decrease our consumption. I walk to work (my commute is about 100'). My wife walks/runs/bikes to work. The car is for longer trips so it gets filled up (~12 gallons) less than once a month. Compared to the vehicle it replaced, it cut our consumption nearly in half for the same purposes. I think that's pretty cool.

[Ray]

You need to be mindful of only one thing - do I need to fill up. I hope this portal is in your near future. Incidentally, this is particularly important if you like to have fun driving your car.
The corollary that I practice is to just ask myself, "do I need to drive"? If I answer that one NO as often as I should, the gas mileage is relatively unimportant (when my kids aren't around, I fill up my car about once a month except for the occasional road trip). And I feel less guilt when I decide to have fun driving the car. Although it's an old Odyssey wagon, so fun is a relative term.

-Ray

[weiwentg]

my '97 Toyota Corolla gets 32 on the highway if I keep it around 65-67mph - 70 is the speed limit in Michigan. even at 70 I feel like a pariah because everyone goes at 90.

if I manage to find an 18-wheeler and draft 3 car lengths behind it, I can get as much as 35.

[OldDog]

04 Silverado 2500HD with 6.0L and 4:11 rear = 13 mpg
02 Volvo S40T = 26 mpg
07 Harley 96" with modified intake/output = 46 mpg
02 RS = 25 mpp (miles per pancake)

Figuaring labor on top of cost of ingrediants plus energy to cook pancakes, the RS and Harley tie for effcency.

[Pete Serotta]

M3 gets 40 miles per gallon unless Kelly or Ray(Aneida Ride) are at the wheel. Then it is about 10. We will not even talk about SPOKES and his miles per gallon......


PETE

[slowgoing]

05 BMW 330Ci ZHP w/6 sp - mileage very dependent on speed. 27-28 mpg at 80, goes up to about 32-33 at 70mph. The best was 36mpg on a road trip from Moab to LA with a tailwind.

I also get a few more mpg with 91 versus 89 octane.

[Smiley]

Funny how driving habits good and bad change the gas mileage performance, The new Ford Edge which I have ordered according to the 2007 EPA numbers are 18 and 25 for FWD but with the new 2008 EPA numbers it will be 16 and 24 mpg. Owners report higher and lower values depending on driving conditions and habits. Today I filled up my Maxima and got 20.5 mph with mainly 50 / 50 city and hwy miles. Too bad its Super unleaded required, although I do only use the mid grade.

[C5 Snowboarder]

C5 Corvette on the highway - I get about 25mpg - not bad for 350 HP. number lowers quite a bit around town if my foot gets heavy.
But I don't fret about squezzing the last 1 or 2 mpg like some -- just not worth the effort. If I drive 20,000 miles a year and using easy numbers of 20mpg that 1000 gal of gas at $3.00. so $3,000 outa pocket, if the number is 18 mpg my outa pocket is $3333 - a net $333 a year. why go out a buy a car that gets better milage if the saving is less than what you'll even pay for the sales tax on this little 4 cylinder pos. An please don't get on me about the environment stuff -- if I sell my 20mpg car to buy a higher mpg one -- the one I sold is still on the road being driven. :crap:

[Bart001]

Do a Google search for hypermiling

Some hypermiling techniques sacrifice safety for economy. That's where I draw the line. Coasting down to offramp speed on the interstate (highway) prior to exiting, for example, saves fuel but generates a really unsafe situation (especially on highways where onramps and offramps are one in the same).

But, I drive very "gently," anticipate red lights and traffic ahead, etc., and get good mileage improvements because of that.

[Karin Kirk]

C5 Corvette on the highway - I get about 25mpg - not bad for 350 HP. number lowers quite a bit around town if my foot gets heavy.
But I don't fret about squezzing the last 1 or 2 mpg like some -- just not worth the effort. If I drive 20,000 miles a year and using easy numbers of 20mpg that 1000 gal of gas at $3.00. so $3,000 outa pocket, if the number is 18 mpg my outa pocket is $3333 - a net $333 a year. why go out a buy a car that gets better milage if the saving is less than what you'll even pay for the sales tax on this little 4 cylinder pos. An please don't get on me about the environment stuff -- if I sell my 20mpg car to buy a higher mpg one -- the one I sold is still on the road being driven. :crap:

Your post points out a couple of interesting things. First, the price of gasoline is not high enough to encourage a real change in behavior for many people. You are correct that $333 a year is not much of an incentive.

But when viewed from a more broadly social context, like Archibald's point of view, some people choose to save energy because of the 'greater good' and the fact that this is satisfying to them.

I think the financial equation would be a lot more compelling if we had to pay (or even to consider) the true cost of a gallon of gasoline. The price at the pump pales in comparison to the actual overall cost that we contribute as taxpayers. We have yet to see how much we'll wind up paying for our fossil fuel use, since it seems the largest price may be still ahead of us as we figure out what to do about climate change. Not to mention our increasing debt as it relates to our military spending. The way I see it, the cost of gasoline is very high, indeed.

Also, I have to disagree with the logic that you may as well keep your Corvette because if you didn't have it, someone else would. That is a rationalization. If you want to keep it because you like it, then fine, call a spade a spade. But otherwise, that's sort of like saying if I didn't burn XX gallons of gasoline, then someone else surely would, so why should I bother trying to conserve? I guess it just depends on your viewpoint.

[93legendti]

my '97 Toyota Corolla gets 32 on the highway if I keep it around 65-67mph - 70 is the speed limit in Michigan. even at 70 I feel like a pariah because everyone goes at 90.

if I manage to find an 18-wheeler and draft 3 car lengths behind it, I can get as much as 35.

What part of I-75 has drivers doing 90 on a regular basis? I don't even see people going 80 when I'm on I-75.

[Climb01742]

lexus rx400h: winter: about 21-22mpg. summer: 26.2 and rising .1 every other day. as a mpg experiment, i haven't turned the a/c on yet this summer, much to the mrs' sweaty annoyment.

[C5 Snowboarder]

Your post points out a couple of interesting things. The price at the pump pales in comparison to the actual overall cost that we contribute as taxpayers. We have yet to see how much we'll wind up paying for our fossil fuel use, since it seems the largest price may be still ahead of us as we figure out what to do about climate change. Not to mention our increasing debt as it relates to our military spending. The way I see it, the cost of gasoline is very high, indeed.

Think about this for a minute and I do not mean to beat a dead horse. So I use a 1000 gal gas a year, compare this to US military - "The U.S. military now uses about 1.7 million gallons of fuel a day in Iraq. And that figure has been rising."

So my use is .00016% of the military in just Iraq--- If we want a change for the better should we not go after the low hanging fruit so to speak -- we make so little difference with our car use on a daily basis. :beer:

And be a little cauious of the hybrid and electric vehicles-- imagine if you will that starting with the old Model T that they were of this design, now 100 years later and all the junk yards and front yards you see with rotting and rusting away autos have these very environment unfreindly batteries leaking in the ground. Cleaning the air may be more viable than cleaning the dirt of Mother Earth. Just a thought.

[jeffg]

Gets me 32-33 with my commuting, though I do not commute far. Too much traffic brings that down about 1-2 mpg. Highway driving I can get 40 at about 65 mph in 6th, but I often drive at 75-85 so I get more in the 33-35 range.

One thing I like about the Mini is that it gets better mileage than advertised (29/36 for the Turbo). Plus, my wife loves it and would never go for paddle shifters when there's a manual available! Yoo-hoo!

[PaulE]

In addition to

[QUOTE=BigDaddySmooth]...Accelerate like there is a raw egg between your foot and the pedal....

and XLBS' great suggestions, higher than mfr's recommended air pressure in tires and taking the narrowest width tire the mfr offers for the car you're buying can increase mileage. Back in the day, cars came with 4 or 5 inch width wheels and 78 profile tires. Nowadays almost any economy car has 65 or 60 series tires on much wider wheels. Mfrs recommended tire air pressure is often a compromise for ride comfort as well as load capacity, etc. - just ask Ford and Firestone about the Explorer situation a couple of years ago. Ford went as skinny as possible on their recommended tire air pressure to increase ride comfort, and then when owners didn't check their air pressure tires went lower than what was safe. If your owners manual has a higher recommended tire pressure for heavier loads that might be a good place to start. This is a tricky area, you can increase the pressure some, but you don't want to overdo it either.

And then there is the obvious, of which I am guilty. If you live in a winter climate and park outside, don't let your car warm up for an extended period of time to melt frost/ice/snow from your windshield - clean it off with a scraper and brush and drive off slowly after starting.

This one I'm not guilty of though - clean all of the extra inches of snow off your car's roof, back window, trunk, etc. instead of letting it freeze on your car and then when it defrosts a little becomes a projectile on the highway. It will increase your mileage by decreasing air resistance and not become a hazard to someone following you on the road.

[Karin Kirk]

Think about this for a minute and I do not mean to beat a dead horse. So I use a 1000 gal gas a year, compare this to US military - "The U.S. military now uses about 1.7 million gallons of fuel a day in Iraq. And that figure has been rising."

So my use is .00016% of the military in just Iraq--- If we want a change for the better should we not go after the low hanging fruit so to speak -- we make so little difference with our car use on a daily basis. :beer:

And be a little cauious of the hybrid and electric vehicles-- imagine if you will that starting with the old Model T that they were of this design, now 100 years later and all the junk yards and front yards you see with rotting and rusting away autos have these very environment unfreindly batteries leaking in the ground. Cleaning the air may be more viable than cleaning the dirt of Mother Earth. Just a thought.

In part you are reinforcing my point by illuminating the military resources that are necessary to protect 'our' oil supplies.

But on the other hand, I cannot agree that just because some entities make a larger impact than you do, that your actions are not significant. Yes, of course the largest military force in the world uses more energy than you do. How is that truly relevant? We US citizens have a pretty poor environmental track record when it comes to our consumption. You, me and every other person are part of that equation, and together we've used more oil and belched out more pollutants than any other nation. We are all collectively responsible for that. If no one is willing to take responsibility while we wait for the other guy to do his part first, then we're truly in a hopeless situation.

You are absolutely right about the downside of hybrids and electric cars. There is no form of energy that is free of serious drawbacks. Weighing between a hybrid and a regular car is not a one-dimensional equation, and the hybrids are obviously not a panacea. (However, it's hard to imagine how heavy metal batteries could create a larger problem than climate change - but who knows?)
That is why, IMHO, conservation is so important.

[Archibald]

In part you are reinforcing my point by illuminating the military resources that are necessary to protect 'our' oil supplies.

But on the other hand, I cannot agree that just because some entities make a larger impact than you do, that your actions are not significant. Yes, of course the largest military force in the world uses more energy than you do. How is that truly relevant? We US citizens have a pretty poor environmental track record when it comes to our consumption. You, me and every other person are part of that equation, and together we've used more oil and belched out more pollutants than any other nation. We are all collectively responsible for that. If no one is willing to take responsibility while we wait for the other guy to do his part first, then we're truly in a hopeless situation.

You are absolutely right about the downside of hybrids and electric cars. There is no form of energy that is free of serious drawbacks. Weighing between a hybrid and a regular car is not a one-dimensional equation, and the hybrids are obviously not a panacea. (However, it's hard to imagine how heavy metal batteries could create a larger problem than climate change - but who knows?)
That is why, IMHO, conservation is so important.
You are a goddess of patience because it is usually at this point that my hands start twitching excitedly at the prospect of a throat punch and stealing the peach!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[J.Greene]

Gets me 32-33 with my commuting, though I do not commute far. Too much traffic brings that down about 1-2 mpg. Highway driving I can get 40 at about 65 mph in 6th, but I often drive at 75-85 so I get more in the 33-35 range.

One thing I like about the Mini is that it gets better mileage than advertised (29/36 for the Turbo). Plus, my wife loves it and would never go for paddle shifters when there's a manual available! Yoo-hoo!

is it possible to lay the seats down flat and get a bike in back with both wheels off?

JG

[jeffg]

In fact, I can get a bike in with just the front wheel off if the passenger in front does not need much leg room or I am flying solo. With both wheels off you could get two bikes in ...

[BarryG]

Interesting, my '02 WRX wagon gets around 28MPG highway, 25MPG all-around (summer) and loses up to 5 MPG from these numbers in upstate NY winters. Manual tranny and regular (yes, cheapo regular) gasoline. I try for intelligent use of throttle, gear selection and brakes. And bike with both wheels fits in back.

[Karin Kirk]

You are a goddess of patience because it is usually at this point that my hands start twitching excitedly at the prospect of a throat punch and stealing the peach!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

Very funny! :) And I am envious that you have Jetta TDI wagon. If I had to buy a car, that's what I want!

We have a 1998 Passat wagon that gets mid-to-low 30s in "city" driving, and we are happy with that. It helps that we don't drive much. I think we fill it up about every 3 weeks; I've put gas in it 3 times this summer and Dave put gas in it once. I can live with that.

Last week our Passat went awry with a broken timing belt, which is going to cost a bundle to fix. But it's well worth it to keep this great car up and running. It frustrates me that the new Passats are way worse on the mpg. Technology seems to bring us backwards in some cases.

[Hardlyrob]

BarryG - I had a Toyota Camry that was like that. In the summer - particularly on hot days I could get 40+MPG on the highway. In the winter it was 35 at best on the highway.

Karin - I feel your pain, our 2000 Passat just threw a timing belt last month - yikes what a job to put it back together. The amount of the car they have to disassemble to get to the timing belt / head for rebuild is amazing. Both front fenders, radiator, and a whole bunch of other bits that made the car about two feet shorter than normal.

Gotta love VW sometimes though - guaranteed for 100K miles - ours let go at 72K, but since we bought it used, no warranty. Also, half the belt appeared to be in perfect shape, half of it was shredded. The only advise our mechanic had was to replace them every 40-50,000 miles.

For all - replace your air filter(s)!! Ignoring the filter is one sure way to have awful mileage.

Cheers!

R

[xlbs]

about over-inflating tires for better fuel economy. I had an interesting conversation with a chap who has been in the tire business for over 30 years on this very topic. He suggested that over-inflation is a very dangerous practice because it changes two things significantly:

1) Avoidance handling in an emergency is often seriously compromised because the tires cannot perform as they were intended to perform.

2) Stopping distance is increased significantly with over-inflated tires.

Try this little test someday. After driving some distance on a warm or hot day, check the temperature of your tires by laying your hand on them. You may be pleasantly surprised to finda that they are not that hot.

Today's tires roll very efficiently at recommended pressures...Tire temperature is a simple indicator of the energy input required to drive the tire. If they are relatively cool this means that your tires are doing an efficient job of transferring your driving energy to the road. Why mess with the engineers when your life may be involved? Is it worth it to save a very few dollars for increased fuel economy? I think not, especially when one might very well involve others in a crash...

As for hybrid batteries and the environmental impact involved in disposing of them, don't forget that they are very costly to produce as well. Just ask a Honda or Toyota service rep how much a battery costs. They will be evasive and give you a "ball-park" number because they are REALLY costly!

Final note, changing timing belts on VW interference engines is a must. I've had three Jetta TDI's now, and have been right on the number for recommended timing belt changes. The risk is way too high not to...

[Archibald]

Very funny! :) And I am envious that you have Jetta TDI wagon. If I had to buy a car, that's what I want!

We have a 1998 Passat wagon that gets mid-to-low 30s in "city" driving, and we are happy with that. It helps that we don't drive much. I think we fill it up about every 3 weeks; I've put gas in it 3 times this summer and Dave put gas in it once. I can live with that.

Last week our Passat went awry with a broken timing belt, which is going to cost a bundle to fix. But it's well worth it to keep this great car up and running. It frustrates me that the new Passats are way worse on the mpg. Technology seems to bring us backwards in some cases.Bummer about the Passat. Our TDI was dirt cheap, not much more than $20K all in. Bought it through Costco. They're supposed to reintroduce the Jetta TDIs in '08. Have you seen the new diesel SmartCars they're selling in Canada? Near 80mpg! Apparently they won't be selling the diesel version in the US.

Can you imagine the changes our foreign policy and fuel consumption if every car in the US averaged 40mpg? For starters, we wouldn't be using the 1.7mil gallons a day in Iraq...

But of course,
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/248/116/400/bike.png

[Hardlyrob]

I agree with you xlbs about changing timing belts at the right frequency (75,000 religiously on every Toyota I ever had). I have a problem with VW however, when the interval is 100,000 miles and it fails at 72,000, and our mechanic has seen them fail with fewer than 50,000 miles on them, resulting in a $3,500 repair. The specs or the design of the belt is wrong in these cases.

In this day and age - why would you design an interference engine when you don't have to?

Good advice on the tires - thanks.

Rob

[fierte_poser]

Can you imagine the changes our foreign policy and fuel consumption if every car in the US averaged 40mpg? For starters, we wouldn't be using the 1.7mil gallons a day in Iraq...


+1.7mil

Its truly silly to wrap a 175lbs human being in 3000+lbs of stuff (and then use an internal combustion engine to accelerate that significant overhead) just for commuting to work/short trips around town.

If you were designing a mode of personal transport from the ground up, there is no way this would be the final optimal solution.

Kent

[C5 Snowboarder]

In part you are reinforcing my point by illuminating the military resources that are necessary to protect 'our' oil supplies.

But on the other hand, I cannot agree that just because some entities make a larger impact than you do, that your actions are not significant. Yes, of course the largest military force in the world uses more energy than you do. How is that truly relevant? We US citizens have a pretty poor environmental track record when it comes to our consumption. You, me and every other person are part of that equation, and together we've used more oil and belched out more pollutants than any other nation. We are all collectively responsible for that. If no one is willing to take responsibility while we wait for the other guy to do his part first, then we're truly in a hopeless situation.

You are absolutely right about the downside of hybrids and electric cars. There is no form of energy that is free of serious drawbacks. Weighing between a hybrid and a regular car is not a one-dimensional equation, and the hybrids are obviously not a panacea. (However, it's hard to imagine how heavy metal batteries could create a larger problem than climate change - but who knows?)
That is why, IMHO, conservation is so important.

Karin .. You make good points and stimulating conversation! :)
You mention conservation -- that is a tough one for most Americans because being at the top of the economic pyramid we get there by being excessive in every thing we do. It stimulates our economy. An example of this would be --- should we stop traveling in our SUVs to the mountains to enjoy a ride on a snowboard or skis? Should we outlaw auto racing since NASCAR uses quite a bit of fuel and all the fuel it takes to get the 120K spectators there? Is that trip to Europe for vacation really necessary? Where do you apply conservation? One could argue that mere fact of buying a new car that gets better mpg causes more fuel to be used just in manufacturing – all the workers to get to the plant, the trucks to bring the materials, etc.. Conservation works only if we all stay home and do nothing but then we are not at the top of the economic pyramid. So we choose.

A couple of things that may help is to find incentive based ways like video conferencing to encourage business to cutback on the excessive and needless business air travel, just think of the large low hanging fruit we could harvest. Cut the number of airline flights in half – Oh but then Boeing stock would not be at $100 and we’d be jobless again in the PNW – back to my comment above it stimulates the economy.
More serious -- how about all of us that are fortunate enough to drive these nice newer cars - 95% of our highways have newer cars on them -- we pay a tax at purchase that would go towards helping the poor people fix or replace the gas guzzling polluting older cars they own. :)

[Skrawny]

My legend gets about 80 miles per bowl of Total . . .
-s

[jeffg]

were available. How about 64 mpg combined in a turbo diesel package? Yeah baby!

[93legendti]

I like to conserve gas so Al Gore can still drive his '65 Mustang and Cadillac and he, Robert Kennedy, Jr. and Cheryl David can fly around the world in private jets. I figure they deserve it.

[Archibald]

large low hanging fruit we could harvest.
I got your low hanging fruit right here:

:banana: :banana: :banana:
http://www.economist.com/images/ga/2007w27/Petrol.jpg

[Karin Kirk]

Karin .. You make good points and stimulating conversation! :)
You mention conservation -- that is a tough one for most Americans because being at the top of the economic pyramid we get there by being excessive in every thing we do. It stimulates our economy. An example of this would be --- should we stop traveling in our SUVs to the mountains to enjoy a ride on a snowboard or skis? Should we outlaw auto racing since NASCAR uses quite a bit of fuel and all the fuel it takes to get the 120K spectators there? Is that trip to Europe for vacation really necessary? Where do you apply conservation? One could argue that mere fact of buying a new car that gets better mpg causes more fuel to be used just in manufacturing – all the workers to get to the plant, the trucks to bring the materials, etc.. Conservation works only if we all stay home and do nothing but then we are not at the top of the economic pyramid. So we choose.

A couple of things that may help is to find incentive based ways like video conferencing to encourage business to cutback on the excessive and needless business air travel, just think of the large low hanging fruit we could harvest. Cut the number of airline flights in half – Oh but then Boeing stock would not be at $100 and we’d be jobless again in the PNW – back to my comment above it stimulates the economy.
More serious -- how about all of us that are fortunate enough to drive these nice newer cars - 95% of our highways have newer cars on them -- we pay a tax at purchase that would go towards helping the poor people fix or replace the gas guzzling polluting older cars they own. :)


OK, we're converging toward a similar point of view here. Your tax to fix older cars sounds lovely, I'd vote for that in a heartbeat. But wouldn't that put a dent in all the economic growth you mentioned above? As you point out, it's always a trade off. My feeling is that we've swung too far to the economics-above-all side of that equation. And in the end, we will probably face a tough economic penalty because of it, ironically.

I don't think that common sense environmental regulations and incentives would cripple our economy and knock us off our top o' the pyramid pedestal. In fact, we may get knocked off by our own failure to be forward-thinking in terms of energy efficiency. Just ask GM about how the head-in-the-sand approach working out for them over the long run. Compare to Toyota or Honda who seem to be able to look ahead and have enjoyed success because of that.

On the governmental scale, there are plenty of other economies that do a better job in balancing the environment/economy equation. My favorite example is Germany, who met it's Kyoto protocol target (cutting CO2 emissions) a few years ago, enjoys a standard of living that is comparable to ours, oh and they drive fast cars sometimes too! They seem to have figured out how to make it all work. In the meantime, their government poured in money to clean up environmental and economic messes in east Germany too.

Another example is California, with a giant economy and a leader in environmental policy.

And to answer your original questions:
YES we should ban NASCAR - a no-brainer.
YES we should ban SUVs (if you haven't guessed it yet, I'm kidding, sort of (I carpool to the ski area just fine without an SUV - imagine that!)).
YES, going to Europe for vacation is allowed if you can learn enough about their environmental/economic policies while you are there to sound well-informed.

But seriously, the answer is like Tangurey (spelling??) - everything in moderation. There are many places where conservation is a win-win solution. That doesn't mean we have to go back to the stone age, as many people characterize it. It just means we could be a little less gluttonous and maybe think about the impacts of the things we take for granted.

[Karin Kirk]

Oh, and about that dang timing belt. The crusher is that we asked the dealer if there is a replacement interval about 5,000 miles ago. They said no - "don't worry about it."

HA!

[Skrawny]

Looks to me like the answer is to own a Honda Civic in Turkmenistan.

[Smiley]

I agree with you xlbs about changing timing belts at the right frequency (75,000 religiously on every Toyota I ever had). I have a problem with VW however, when the interval is 100,000 miles and it fails at 72,000, and our mechanic has seen them fail with fewer than 50,000 miles on them, resulting in a $3,500 repair. The specs or the design of the belt is wrong in these cases.

In this day and age - why would you design an interference engine when you don't have to?

Good advice on the tires - thanks.

Rob
I stay AWAY far away from cars with timing belts , WHY when a timing chain exsists for cars today. Its an expensive proposition to replace the belts.

[Hardlyrob]

Oh, and about that dang timing belt. The crusher is that we asked the dealer if there is a replacement interval about 5,000 miles ago. They said no - "don't worry about it."

HA!

That's one more reason I hate dealer service departments. My personal favorite was when a dealer recommended changing the timing belt on my truck (Nissan Frontier 4Cyl) - IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE - IT HAS A TIMING CHAIN! that will likely outlast the rest of the vehicle.

I'm much happier with our local hippie-ish, ex-classical musician car mechanics.

Sheesh!

R

[Tom]

Or, should I say, I consume too much coffee and alcohol. Way too much. I look down the road... I want to hang around here and not feel like hell for what, another 50-55 years? Not going to happen if I keep consuming like I do. Some part of me is going to break down.

Problem is, if I quit I'm going to have a vicious headache while I come down from the coffee and I'm going to have to change the way I think in a very fundamental way if I'm going to quit the alcohol.

If I want the system to work right for a long time, I have to do it.

It's the same deal with society's system. I don't subscribe to the theory that our economic way of life has to be abruptly terminated because we start thinking long term, but it is true that what we build it out of today isn't going to be around tomorrow. We will, however, build it out of something else if we start soon enough. There will be discomfort because things will change. Adaptability will reduce that discomfort.

I'm a small system and the discomfort's going to be pretty big when I change myself. Imagine the amount of discomfort changing society's system, which is just a little bit bigger.

We have a choice. Accept that the current system can't sustain and we're going to slam into a wall at some point or that we have to endure a little discomfort to change things around.

Fasten your seatbelts, boys and girls. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

[Archibald]

I stay AWAY far away from cars with timing belts , WHY when a timing chain exsists for cars today. Its an expensive proposition to replace the belts.
Uh, timing chains need replacement also, at about the same intervals as belts.

[fierte_poser]

Uh, timing chains need replacement also, at about the same intervals as belts.

Huh? Not where I come from... maybe the timing chain tensioner, but the actual chain is good for... I don't know... a few hundred thousand miles.

[pjm]

Uh, timing chains need replacement also, at about the same intervals as belts.
Not as often as belts.

[Hardlyrob]

Nissan does not have a maintenance interval for the timing chain on my truck. The timing belt on the V6 is 105,000 miles, but nothing on the timing chain on the 4 cylinder.

That's what made it even funnier that the dealer recommended replacing the timing belt on my truck when a) it doesn't have one and b) there is no scheduled replacement mileage for the timing chain.

Rob

[C5 Snowboarder]

Huh? Not where I come from... maybe the timing chain tensioner, but the actual chain is good for... I don't know... a few hundred thousand miles.

Depends on the make and motor. In my Mercedes SL it is recommended the chain -- it is a double row chain - be replaced every 100K miles. The single row used in the early 80s lasted about 60K miles.

[Archibald]

Huh? Not where I come from... maybe the timing chain tensioner, but the actual chain is good for... I don't know... a few hundred thousand miles.
Keep telling yourself that as your valves contact the pistons...

Trust me, especially if you have an American OHV V-8 (or any other engine that doesn't use a tensioner that can mask the effect of a worn chain and/or gears), they wear out. The fundamental problems of a worn chain/gears gets even worse on OHC engines with their longer chains. Lots of engines have powder metal gears and silent chains that wear quickly. As they wear out, they "stretch" (get longer from wear at the pins) just like a bike chain and as they "stretch" your valve timing changes. Let it wear enough so that it skips a couple of teeth (often at abrubt decelerations) and you're kissing your engine goodbye.

[Brian Smith]

Depends on the make and motor. In my Mercedes SL it is recommended the chain -- it is a double row chain - be replaced every 100K miles. The single row used in the early 80s lasted about 60K miles.

I'm surprised that the Mercedes motor does not have a mechanism with which to adjust the cam timing for chain wear. The Nissan L-series engines which drew heavy inspiration from Mercedes have such a thing in a variably positioned cam gear. The device entails a few inexpensive drilled holes and permits a couple hundred K more miles on the same chain and also maintaining the original cam timing, FWIW.

[cadence231]

C5 Corvette on the highway - I get about 25mpg - not bad for 350 HP. number lowers quite a bit around town if my foot gets heavy.
But I don't fret about squezzing the last 1 or 2 mpg like some -- just not worth the effort. If I drive 20,000 miles a year and using easy numbers of 20mpg that 1000 gal of gas at $3.00. so $3,000 outa pocket, if the number is 18 mpg my outa pocket is $3333 - a net $333 a year. why go out a buy a car that gets better milage if the saving is less than what you'll even pay for the sales tax on this little 4 cylinder pos. An please don't get on me about the environment stuff -- if I sell my 20mpg car to buy a higher mpg one -- the one I sold is still on the road being driven. :crap:


Maybe we should educate the ignorant masses about how many tons of greenhouse gasses their 2 seater pos's (about 10 tons) are dumping into our environment: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

[C5 Snowboarder]

I'm surprised that the Mercedes motor does not have a mechanism with which to adjust the cam timing for chain wear. The Nissan L-series engines which drew heavy inspiration from Mercedes have such a thing in a variably positioned cam gear. The device entails a few inexpensive drilled holes and permits a couple hundred K more miles on the same chain and also maintaining the original cam timing, FWIW.

It does have a chain tensioner -- that is not the reason. The motor in my Mercedes. is a 2.8 liter dual overheard cam straight 6 cylinder that has a red line of 6500 rpm. I drive it hard with it 4 speed manual tranny. I was derived from the racing motor Mercedes used for many years. As this motor runs these two cams at high rpm it does take quite a beating and can break a link or two after that much abuse including runing at 3000 rpm at 60 mph in 4th gear. So that is why I like to replace it, did it once at 105,000 and it has 181,000 on it now, I'd like to run it till I die - it is a pretty nice ride. :beer:

Also-- don't we as hard driving bicylers replace the chain on our bikes? Or do you think that is good for 200,000 miles or the life of our bike too?????
I doubt very much that we put even a fraction of stress and strain on our bike chains that an auto motor does. Just a thought

[cmg]

In this day and age - why would you design an interference engine when you don't have to?

so that when you ignore it and it fails it encourages to buy the next car. it was such a good car except for the belt i'll buy another and pay attention. i hate timing belts........

[Hardlyrob]

C5 Snowboarder said...Also-- don't we as hard driving bicyclers replace the chain on our bikes? Or do you think that is good for 200,000 miles or the life of our bike too?????
I doubt very much that we put even a fraction of stress and strain on our bike chains that an auto motor does. Just a thought

The bike puts a very different stress on the chain - sending it off at all kinds of funny angles under load. The timing gears on a car (even my poorly designed old MG) are almost perfectly aligned. The idea of chain angles doesn't exist in the car world as far as I know - certainly not to the extreme of the new 10 speed gearing on bikes. My understanding is that it is this lateral stress that leads to a chain lasting a relatively short time on a bike.

Rob

[Hardlyrob]

In this day and age - why would you design an interference engine when you don't have to?

so that when you ignore it and it fails it encourages to buy the next car. it was such a good car except for the belt i'll buy another and pay attention. i hate timing belts........

Unfortunately you are probably right about that.

Rob

[C5 Snowboarder]

Maybe we should educate the ignorant masses about how many tons of greenhouse gasses their 2 seater pos's (about 10 tons) are dumping into our environment: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

Not much diffence between a Corvette and a Toyota Camry.. :crap:

Next time you go to a football game calculate the tons generated/used or look up the amount generated to keep a ski resort operating per year, or look at the amount generated to fly from Seattle to New York -- it is 2000 lbs of CO per flight per person. :confused:

[Big Dan]

Not much diffence between a Corvette and a Toyota Camry.. :crap:

Next time you go to a football game calculate the tons generated/used or look up the amount generated to keep a ski resort operating per year, or look at the amount generated to fly from Seattle to New York -- it is 2000 lbs of CO per flight per person. :confused:


Just the kind of thinking that got us here.

:confused:

[Ahneida Ride]

I save on gas by stealing Pete's M5 and striping the second gear syncro! :p

[C5 Snowboarder]

C5 Snowboarder said...Also-- don't we as hard driving bicyclers replace the chain on our bikes? Or do you think that is good for 200,000 miles or the life of our bike too?????
I doubt very much that we put even a fraction of stress and strain on our bike chains that an auto motor does. Just a thought

The bike puts a very different stress on the chain - sending it off at all kinds of funny angles under load. The timing gears on a car (even my poorly designed old MG) are almost perfectly aligned. The idea of chain angles doesn't exist in the car world as far as I know - certainly not to the extreme of the new 10 speed gearing on bikes. My understanding is that it is this lateral stress that leads to a chain lasting a relatively short time on a bike.

Rob

You are correct there but also keep in mind a human puts out about .1 or 1/10 of a horsepower, mighty small compared to the excess HP of a auto motor.

[chrisroph]

My departed GT3 got 7 (on the track). My vespa gets about 90. My A4 2.0 gets 23-30.

[fierte_poser]

Keep telling yourself that as your valves contact the pistons...

Trust me, especially if you have an American OHV V-8 (or any other engine that doesn't use a tensioner that can mask the effect of a worn chain and/or gears), they wear out. The fundamental problems of a worn chain/gears gets even worse on OHC engines with their longer chains. Lots of engines have powder metal gears and silent chains that wear quickly. As they wear out, they "stretch" (get longer from wear at the pins) just like a bike chain and as they "stretch" your valve timing changes. Let it wear enough so that it skips a couple of teeth (often at abrubt decelerations) and you're kissing your engine goodbye.

OK... so there are considerations... but I have never heard of a replacement interval, per se, for a timing chain. Wearing out is one thing... like when piston rings wear out, you need to rebuild the engine (or just deal with the lack of compression and the burning oil). But you wouldn't say that piston rings have a replacement or maintenance interval.

Also, as a casual participant in high performance driving (autocrossing and track days), I've never heard of an overhead cam chain skipping teeth, even on a high mileage engine that sees sustained high rpm use. Instead, I think it is much more likely that the timing chain will wear to the point where the timing chain tensioner(s) can no longer take up the slack. At that point in time, you'll hear some racket from the front of the engine, most likely replace the tensioners, continue to hear the racket, and then replace the chain.

Also, as to bicycle chain replacement versus timing chain replacement, remember that timing chains are not exposed to grit accumulation during normal use.

That's it. Just sayin...

[Archibald]

In this day and age - why would you design an interference engine when you don't have to?

so that when you ignore it and it fails it encourages to buy the next car. it was such a good car except for the belt i'll buy another and pay attention. i hate timing belts........
Almost any oversquare engine with more than, oh, I dunno'..say, 8-1 compression ratio and is cam'd to have any performance at all is going to have an interference between the piston and valves should the timing go out of whack. Nature of the beast.

[Dan Le foot]

47 on the Prius. And just to balance it...8mpg on the motorhome.
Dan

[Pete Serotta]

:no: :no: :no: wondered what happened

I save on gas by stealing Pete's M5 and striping the second gear syncro! :p

[Brian Smith]

It does have a chain tensioner -- that is not the reason. The motor in my Mercedes. is a 2.8 liter dual overheard cam straight 6 cylinder that has a red line of 6500 rpm. I drive it hard with it 4 speed manual tranny. I was derived from the racing motor Mercedes used for many years. As this motor runs these two cams at high rpm it does take quite a beating and can break a link or two after that much abuse including runing at 3000 rpm at 60 mph in 4th gear. So that is why I like to replace it, did it once at 105,000 and it has 181,000 on it now, I'd like to run it till I die - it is a pretty nice ride. :beer:

The straight 6 is my favorite engine configuration. What I'm talking about is not simply a tensioner, but the low tech equivalent of the adjust-um-able cam timing gears that the cool import kids run nowadays. The cam timing gear on the Nissan engines (including the 2.8 liter overhead cam straight 6 that has a redline of around 6500 rev/min) can be removed and reinstalled in a different orientation to account for the slight change in chain length that occurs with wear. The cost of the chain is around the cost of a contemporary bicycle chain, so there's no reason to not replace it if you're in that deep, but what I thought was cool was that you didn't absolutely need to do it due to wear/strength issues; they're good for well over 100k mi.


Also-- don't we as hard driving bicylers replace the chain on our bikes? Or do you think that is good for 200,000 miles or the life of our bike too?????
I doubt very much that we put even a fraction of stress and strain on our bike chains that an auto motor does. Just a thought

If our chains could run as sealed from the elements and in as much of an oil bath as a cam timing chain can be run, we wouldn't need to replace them, either. For most people's use profile, a chaincase is not worth the installation and weight. With regard to strain, I think a mountain bike pointed straight uphill with a root ledge against the rear wheel in the 20/34 gear might well induce more strain in the chain than that of an auto timing chain.

Well, heck, I'm not trying to be contrary here, but I'm pretty excited about my girlfriend's recent used car purchase, I think the level of importance given to fuel economy in the design of contemporary cars has been deplorable, and I couldn't ignore the thread.

[Archibald]

OK... so there are considerations... but I have never heard of a replacement interval, per se, for a timing chain.
These are the same good folks telling you can go 6K between oil changes and 12K between filters...or 100K between tune ups.


Wearing out is one thing... like when piston rings wear out, you need to rebuild the engine (or just deal with the lack of compression and the burning oil). But you wouldn't say that piston rings have a replacement or maintenance interval.

Also, as a casual participant in high performance driving (autocrossing and track days), I've never heard of an overhead cam chain skipping teeth, even on a high mileage engine that sees sustained high rpm use. Instead, I think it is much more likely that the timing chain will wear to the point where the timing chain tensioner(s) can no longer take up the slack. At that point in time, you'll hear some racket from the front of the engine, most likely replace the tensioners, continue to hear the racket, and then replace the chain.

Also, as to bicycle chain replacement versus timing chain replacement, remember that timing chains are not exposed to grit accumulation during normal use.

That's it. Just sayin...
Wear out they do. If you have a tensioner, you may never know how worn your timing chain is, and probably won't unless it the timing gets so out of whack the motor starts losing serious power or it starts slapping the covers or just fails. On any motor without a tensioner (most any OHV motor), you won't probably hear it until the valves are punching holes in your pistons. I've built plenty of motors and worked a spell as a mechanic at Ford dealerships and private shops and replaced plenty of worn out timing chains or fixed the result of their failing. I did have a customer bring in a car for a bad oil leak and found that the timing chain was so worn and loose it had worn a hole through the cover.

Agree completely with you on the difference between bike chains and timing chains. Apples and oranges, but that don't mean that a chain/gears spinning 100,000,000+ revolutions (say 60K miles) at 3K rpm with a splash lubrication system ain't going to experience serious wear.

[DukeHorn]

Remember the article from a few months ago claiming that a Hummer was more environmentally friendly than a Prius??

In addition, the article claims that the Prius costs $3.25 per mile over its expected lifespan of 100,000 miles compared to $1.95 per mile for the Hummer. The article gets its data from a study by CNW Marketing called Dust to Dust, which is an attempt to account for all the costs of vehicles, from manufacture through operation through repair and disposal. The $3.25/mile cost quoted for the Prius is the 2005 number; for 2006 it is $2.87. This improvement pulled the Prius below the straight industry average — all the other hybrids are still above that average. And the Hummer is not listed at all for 2006.

Anyway, I got a new mazda3 for commuting, hitting around 30 mph (not great but it was not too expensive) and I have the old Grand Cherokee around for hauling kayaks. Not that great on the fuel but I comforted myself by noting that I could (and did) carry 2 kayaks on top, one inside and two bikes on the hitch-rack for one trip.

I know 93LegendTi is saving up fuel so Gore can use a jet. I'd like to think that I'm saving fuel so that our boys in Iraq can come back a bit earlier......

(hey if you want to bring in politics, let's play)

Did anyone see the Daily Show today which showed a Cheney interview from 94 where he stated the reasons that Bush I didn't go get Saddam was that (a) Iraq would be a quagmire and (b) we wouldn't be able to control what happened in the power vacuum. Errrr, makes you think doesn't it???? (of course, some of the irony is going to be lost on a few folks)

[Climb01742]

In fact, I can get a bike in with just the front wheel off if the passenger in front does not need much leg room or I am flying solo. With both wheels off you could get two bikes in ...

jeff, to do this, is the bike laying flat on seats put down or is it standing up, "wedged" between the front and back seats? i've always really liked mini's, especially the S, but never thought you could get a bike in one. thanks.

ps: your PM mailbox is full.

[jeffg]

jeff, to do this, is the bike laying flat on seats put down or is it standing up, "wedged" between the front and back seats? i've always really liked mini's, especially the S, but never thought you could get a bike in one. thanks.

ps: your PM mailbox is full.

Climb,

I always lay the seats flat. When I took my mini in to get an accessory installed, I pulled out the Legend and headed off for a ride -- the BMW owners were duly impressed.

My dilemma now is that the boys love to ride in the Mini so I may get the great rear bike rack Mini has:

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=MorePartInfo&PartID=439054&siteid=214217&catalogid=5277

With that and a roof box the Mini is the weekend car for trips to wine country.

P.S. Plenty of room for PMs now

[pjm]

What the heck are you guys driving with all these timing chain failures and pistons and valves slappin' and engines blowing apart! My advice? Get yourself a Honda (4 banger.) Change the oil every 5K and enjoy. :banana: :p ;) :cool: